I think that the point of this march is being hijacked by ANSWER'S

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

protest against Israel and the Palestinians. I am finding this upseting. I feel strongly about this issue but I thought that this was all about our illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

1. I always feel like that about ANSWER...

but thats their platform, and they will take every opportunity to talk about it, no matter what else is going on.

[mcg]

255. They were even discouraging people from starting to march.

They wanted us to stay put and listen to their speeches. One thing I noticed is that a proportionate number of the speakers were Muslims, and many of the speechs were focused against Israel.

I wasn't going there to attend an anti-Israel rally or to be converted to Islam.

There were also lots of Socialist this and Socialist that, which gets in the way of the message. I think some of these people are pretty naive in thinking that Socialism is the answer and that Capitalism in any form is no good. Things are not at all that simple. I'm for social programs, strong unions, etc. but that's different.

[Atman]

2. It always is, anytime ANSWER is involved

There were threads about this last night. ANSWER is great at organizing, but then they completely muddle the message.

[Pirate Smile]

49. When I flipped to C-span and it said "A.N.S.W.E.R. Rally" - my

heart sunk.

[Peace Patriot]

134. If you don't understand the connection between the invasion and occupation

of Iraq and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict then you don't understand much at all. I'm for listening to all viewpoints, especially from those who have been marginalized. We should not buy into the war profiteering corporate news monopolies' public relations paradigm which severely narrows the political spectrum and would like to see boutique marches sponsored by Starbucks where nothing uncomfortable is said, and prefers political conventions where all dissenters are caged far away from the powerful. This is a peoples' march. Let the unpowerful speak!

[Finder]

193. I agree 100% (nt)

[nodehopper]

206. is this about everyone having their say or trying to effect actual change?

Antiglobalization in all its incarnations marches are old news, and marches that give anti-Israel groups, ICP etc. equal time are not going to be taken seriously by people whose awareness about the war we are supposed to be raising this day.

That is always the problem with the ANSWER rallies, they never stay on point, and, really, are more about the protesters than about the issues. Fluffed-up "protester cred" egos and maChesmo.

[hippiepunk]

261. guh... I hate ANSWER

"

[rman]

267. You just insulted a majority of protesters

"I think that the point of this march is being hijacked by ANSWER'S protest against Israel and the Palestinians. I am finding this upseting. I feel strongly about this issue but I thought that this was all about our illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq."

"When the ANSWER guy was first speaking and mentioned Palestine I have the feeling that most of the crowd agreed with you. The response was less than enthusiastic." (this was also clearly visible on C-SPAN)

Palestine/Israel is just one of dozens of serious issues worth protesting for. Why not also include Birma, East Timor, Haiti, Tibet, WTO/IMF Free Trade Scams, etc etc etc etc.
Why not?
BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHY PEOPLE WENT TO THE DEMONSTRATION

[Cassandra]

3. Answer drives me nuts when they do this.

I hope I don't hear even one Mumia reference.

[LosinIt]

4. Happens every time

now we'll hear about every issue under the sun. Johannesburg?? please...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

5. When I saw that C-Span called this ANSWER's Anti-War Rally I had

a dark feeling that something like this would happen. I think that someone has to hijack it back from them!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. First Principles

I assume the folks who are attending this event put an end to the occupation of Iraq at the top of their agenda....To achieve this goal they want to enlist Middle America in this effort...


I'd like the opinions of other DUers....


Do they think the speakers and the tone is going to attract Middle America to their efforts...



I think the last protest march to be truly successful at stirring the conscience of Middle America was Dr, King's March On Washington... You had every day folks appealing to the basic dignity of average Americans...

[RevolutionStartsNow]

31. That's it...

Get the Gold Star moms up there, more Cindy Sheehan. Jesse Jackson was great too.

[despairing optimist]

234. Well, now that you mention Middle America, I'll put in my 2 cents

Scene: Yellow Line on Saturday morning and afternoon, to and from the airport. Families with young children on the trains. Antiwar protesters wearing t-shirts like Fuck Bush, Fuck the War, Fuck This, Fuck That.

Would you like to be the young parent who had to answer your kid's question, What is Fuck?

I don't care about the threads on DU. This is an adult board. But in public parents can't shield their young ones from vulgar language, and small kids count on adults to set up boundaries.

Again, I write four-letter words here and elsewhere with the best of them, but when people are out in public and want to win over undecided folks, you're already handicapping yourselves by coming off as vulgar and offensive. Okay, now, flame away and keep wondering why more of Middle America doesn't see itself in the antiwar movement.

Sure, some of MA does, but that part is trying hard not to see those t-shirts. I'm not saying antiwar people need to look and sound like Donny and Marie Osmond, but just use a little restraint under certain circumstances. College rallies? Sure, use any language you want, but on a Saturday afternoon in DC with lots of small kids, I don't think it's appropriate and I'm glad I didn't have any kids with me.

[mcg]

257. other problems...

There were women exposing themselves and holding signs 'War is Indecent'. I didn't mind seeing them and they did have some points, but strategically, not good. What was surreal was that there was a line of cops nearby. Guess we're not in the 50's anymore.

Also there were some people being a bit too artsy fartsy, I felt they were just showing off and were distracting from the message.

These protests need more focus.

[gordontron]

260. agreed

the one in down town Seattle that I went to really felt like it lacked focus, which answer was partially responsible for. I found my self silent for long sections of slogan chanting because they were completely unfocused on the task at hand. this movement really needs a good leading organization.

[madfloridian]

6. It happens every year.

Why do you think a lot of polticians are cautious about appearing at their rallies?

They are only a little bit anti-war. This happens every rally.

[cyberpj]

7. Unfortunately, this is what will make the mainstream media - nt.

[GrumpyGreg]

8. When the ANSWER guy was first speaking and mentioned

Palestine I have the feeling that most of the crowd agreed with you.

The response was less than enthusiastic.

This was a couple of hours ago.

[coffeenap]

9. Me too--I am SO pissed--this is how we fail to get our message

across. I am yelling--I am frustrated--this is about IRAQ and BUSH.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. And the more speakers the put up the more I'm getting pissed! nt

[yorgatron]

17. Matthew McConaughey did a skit on SNL about that

stay on MESSAGE people!

[Alizaryn]

10. Agreed

They should just ... begin to march.

[seabeyond]

11. you are right, and they pile it on at the end. tryin to make people

shout free free palestine. lol. i thought this was: get out of iraq

wow.

each speaker it is more so

you are right

[OzarkDem]

12. Why is ANSWER the only group

who can organize these marches?

[fasttense]

19. They are the ones with money. Oil money. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. You're Not Suggesting Their Provacateurs...

This is a Republican wet dream....

A bunch of poeople scaring the bejeesus out of middle America....

[rman]

266. Not so much Provacateurs as Gate Keepers

[CountAllVotes]

34. since when do you have to put dollar bills in the bucket?

I remember the marches in the 70s. Buckets went around yes. And if you had some money, even a dime was a donation. They are asking for $100 dollar bills! :wtf:

This is supposed to be about U.S. OUT OF IRAQ, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!

And note how they are telling people to contribute to ANSWER by plugging their website for donations in case you cannot be there. No $100 bills from me! NO!

:argh:

:kick:

[lakeguy]

14. i was just wathcing and the crowd was starting to get angry

don't understand why they can't just focus on the US getting out of Iraq. is it really that hard?

[Opusnone]

15. BIG TIME

I've been lost in anti-Israel rhetoric for the past 30 minutes.

[bluestateguy]

16. I don't like ANSWER

First of all it's one thing to oppose Israel's policies, which I often do, but ANSWER gives me the impression that they would not lose any sleep at all if Israel was completely wiped off of the map.

Secondly, the left has a tendency to go off message with these demonstrations, where an anti-war rally becomes a venue for people in a whole bunch of other movements to piggy back along.

[stevief]

225. ANSWER wouldn't care if Israel was wiped off the map

However, this rally isn't about Israel, Palestine or Mumia. It's about the war in Iraq.

The trouble with ANSWER's approach is they want too much. Like the rest of the far left, they want every little greivance to be corrected.

If you ask for the moon, you get cheese. sdf (stevie)

[mcg]

253. There was even a sign "All of Israel is an illegal occupation"

Really, some of these people do more harm than good.

I was pretty bewildered by the first part of the day, reading this thread, I'm starting to understand.

[mandyky]

18. I brought this up after one of the early protests of the Iraq War

This is why Middle America thinks peace protesters are "anti-American" and "unpatriotic". We need to stay on one issue as much as possible or we lose suport with Middlle America.

I was pretty much told since ANSWER does the organizing that I was wrong. shrug Maybe, maybe not - but many people who would listen to getting out of Iraq just don't wanna hear some of this.

[Rose Siding]

89. I remember being thrilled that ANYONE would have an anti-war rally, but

now that we're the *acknowledged* majority, it doesn't seem so necessary to include every single issue that may be deserving of attention in this sort of venue.

[MisterP]

227. they think that because Faux tells them all the time, ANSWER or no ANSWER

(would the latter option be QUESTION, then :o?)

[Scout1071]

20. I'm absolutely in agreement. I'm starting to get pissed this is all about

Palestine.

Don't get me wrong, it needs to be in our dialogue, but I thought this day was about Iraq and George W Bush.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. I agree, this kind of sucks

The point of this march is END THE WAR IN IRAQ. Cindy was great, the Grannies were great, a few other speakers were great, but I am skipping through most of it. It's not that I don't support most of what the other speakers are saying (and I say most, not all, but that's true at any rally) -- but can't we just stay FOCUSED? This a huge opportunity to make a single statement, END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

[madfloridian]

23. That's why a lot of politicians won't appear at their rallies.

Everyone has been jumping all over our Democrats for not appearing there. We have turned off the tv on the rallies nearly every time when they get this way.

Looks like the anti-war main issue folks would know it by now.

[fujiyama]

265. Agree completely

It was ridiculous to watch people lashing out at Dean and other Dems for not appearing at the rally.

I have never trusted ANSWER. While what Dean is doing is not an exciting or sexy job, it has to be done and in the end I think what he is doing will likely have more of a positive impact than these ANSWER rallies.

[bucknaked]

24. Felt the same way here. Was like "oh no, here we go..."

eom

[Alizaryn]

25. Someone in the crowd needs to become

a leader, say follow me and begin to march. I am for for this demonstration with every ounce of my body and soul, BUT am about to turn it off. I can't see it reaching anyone tuning in making an attempt to make up their minds.

[cyberpj]

33. I see people walking away - if people tune in now, it looks bad. nt.

[Traveling_Home]

57. Doesn't just look bad

It is bad. A.n.s.w.e.r isn't. The 'other' folks were very glad to hear it would be televised. It hurts the cause. We all know it. We have to marginalize A.N.S.W.E.R. to get effective. Hopefully some of the media will 'clean' up the message some.

Contrast with the ADAPT protest in DC last week. (Much posted on DU last week - search it) Stay on topic, especially in Public and it's all public these days.

[etherealtruth]

27. Yep

[coffeenap]

28. If I hear one more poem--well, I already screamed. (apologies to

those who like poetry under all circumstances).

[coffeenap]

32. Iraq! Iraq! Impeach! Iraq! Iraq! I am begging--we are losing credibility

by the minute with each topic added to our message. Shit, shit, shit.
(sorry to resond to my own post--mistake)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. Yes, we are and I am going from pissed to horrified by this. nt

[RevolutionStartsNow]

40. LOL

I love poetry, but it doesn't work at a rally.

[Opusnone]

29. Free the Cuban five?

What the fuck is going on?

[lildreamer316]

30. I want to see the ACTUAL MARCH. WHO TH E HELL are the

Cuban five?

[derby378]

36. Free James Brown!!

Free Tommy Chong!!

Free Willy!!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

41. derby

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Alizaryn]

LOL

Unfortunately they are turning people off even though the "cause" may be great. Its unfair and it would be making me furious if I were there. You cannot FORCE FEED someone something, that's the government's job.

[Egalitariat]

37. I thought it was a "Free Mumia Abu Jamal" march****

nm

[Misskittycat]

38. We need to take the anti-war movement away from ANSWER. I can't

watch the rally for more than a few minutes; it's making me so upset.

I presume the local rally I'm attending won't be hijacked in that way.

[lildreamer316]

39. Screw it; I'm gonna follow it with Will's blog and the traffic cams.

[cyberpj]

42. I'm with you. STAY ON POINT. STAY ON POINT. STAY ON POINT.

[Opusnone]

50. I felt this way watching the Libertarian convention

on C-Span last year. I thought I'd hear intellectuals, rational thinkers, political debaters, and truth tellers, but instead it was an unorganized hodge podge of various speakers with different agendas who seemed as comfortable behind a microphone as a whore in church.
It was embarrassing, no, I was embarrassed for them.

[Mari333]

43. I cringe when I imagine my mom, a staunch republican,

who now detests Bush,as she watches this. If anything pushes her back to Bush, it will be some of the shrill , loud voices from ANSWER. This happened when I protested against the Vietnam war also..fringe groups hijacking the message. Oh well.

[LSK]

47. time for an email campaign to ANSWER

I am not liking this. I have heard Palestine more than Iraq talked about in the past hour.

Dammit. This is about Iraq.

[karynnj]

192. In the 60s and 70s, the extreme left wing was incapable

of understanding that their hardcore protesting scared America and was not effective. The Nixon tapes prove that they felt most of the protesters turned America off.

From the tapes, the only protest leader who scared them was Kerry, because he was a clean cut, articulate, well educated war hero. Kerry, at 27 had the wisdom to fight to keep the protest a non-violent protest of veterans, with no celebrities. The only issues were to end the war and take better care of the veterans who needed help. This focus made this a very successful protest and made it possible for Senators and Congressmen to join the protesters and to invite them to visit their offices. Watch "Going Upriver" and see the difference between that protest and today's. (Kerry's stance against the 70s far left wing led some of them to hate him (to this day) as much as Nixon did. But he turned more people against the war than they ever did.)

Cindy Sheehan would be well advised to consider who she associates with. She had credibility and moral standing, which ANSWER is willing to use. In doing so, they diminish her.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

44. It's the COVERAGE that's the problem

There are (by Will's account) tens of thousands of people on the streets of DC, marching, THAT's what they should be covering, not this "Cuban Five" stuff.

SHOW THE FREAKIN' PEOPLE!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

48. These are the speeches being held before the march officially starts.

That is why they are being covered.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

59. When does the march start?

I thought people were already marching in the streets, per Will's blog and the traffic cams.

[NoodleyAppendage]

62. And, they can't find speakers who can stay on point?? Come on...

The key is to limit the focus of any march from day one. All this "socialists/communists of the world unite" bullshit is only hurting the more important message about Iraq.

B

[Arugula Latte]

72. Welcome to DU, NoodleyAppendage!

Hope you like it here! :toast: :hi:

Ramen.

[NoodleyAppendage]

87. Thanks. It's nice to be had...

:toast:

B

[nonconformist]

45. I agree, this is pissing me off! nt

[coffeenap]

46. Now, how many people throughout America and the world want

to join this movement? What the hell is the message we are sending? When will we ever learn????

[Alizaryn]

53. I am glad its not just me

feeling furious.

[Violet_Crumble]

256. You don't want to be part of the anti-war movement?

Uh, oh-kay. To be honest, as a non-American, I've been a bit disgusted by the carry-on in this thread. Thankfully from news reports, there were a whole lot more Americans who think getting out on the streets and adding their voices to the anti-war message is way more important than sitting round on the internet and bitching about there being other issues than just the war in Iraq being touted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1803952

Shame on the whole lot of you. I'm pretty sure it was ANSWER who organised the massive anti-war rally here prior to the invasion of Iraq, and there were speakers who talked about other causes, but the main focus of the rally was on Iraq. Should I have packed up and gone home in a huff when an indigenous speaker talked about land-rights?

Violet...

[rman]

270. Anti Iraq War movement, anti Bush movement

We all know that's what this is about, that's why people came to DC.
Shame on ANSWER for pushing topics that are not on the protesters agenda and turning people off.
What YOU do in response is YOUR concern.

[Violet_Crumble]

281. If you all know what it's about, what's with all the whining then?

Are you a mindreader or something? How do you know what people do or don't support?

Shame on those who don't seem to even realise that ANSWER organised this protest. Without them there would have been nothing, which I'm getting the impression some of the loudest anti-ANSWER types would have preferred. Anyone who was turned off is no better than the freepers as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

[rman]

283. Like you don't know what the "whining" is about;

this entire threat is about that issue: the fact that ANSWER keeps pushing topics other then the issues for which people came to DC: troops out of Iraq, Bush out of the WH.

We know for sure all demonstrators support that. About all the other issues we don't know whether or not people support it. What we DO know is that people didn't come to DC for those other issues.

I can't imagine ANSWER would not be able to organize a demonstration on issues that all people support.

Hordes of people actually left the ANSWER 'lectures' and went on to circle the WH; went on to do what they had come to do.

[Violet_Crumble]

282. If you all know what it's about, what's with all the whining then?

Are you a mindreader or something? How do you know what people do or don't support?

Shame on those who don't seem to even realise that ANSWER organised this protest. Without them there would have been nothing, which I'm getting the impression some of the loudest anti-ANSWER types would have preferred. Anyone who was turned off is no better than the freepers as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

[Rose Siding]

51. It sure doesn't resonate like Camp Casey

But the reaction of the crowd makes me believe they are anxious to get down to business.

You'd think that with the polls about the war and all the renewed attention of the last couple of months, the speakers would force themselves to focus.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. I say at this point that the crowd is way too polite. eom

[Fla Dem]

217. ITA...I started watching, but when every fringe group had to get

up and have their say, it lost me. I was afraid I was the only one, and just figured I wasn't being sensitive. But I thought this was going to be ant-war, anti Bush administration, sensible speakers talking about how this pResident has so seriously screwed this country. As political as I am, I found the other speeches distracting, and could not focus on their screaming. If that was my reaction I have to wonder how others less committed, less involved, entrenched in the belief of the goodness of Dumbya, would ever see this except as another radical left wing "I hate America rally".

[union_maid]

52. Yup, this isn't helping

Coverage of the rest of the people would be much better. They're showing a particular rally, seems to me. Showing the cross section of people who are participating in this would be much better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Israel Is No Angel...

But they are getting bashed way worse than Bush*

[seabeyond]

60. neither side are, but this isnt what this demonstration is about

this isnt what we are fighting right now. this isnt why so many went to dc today

[frictionlessO]

162. You can say that again.

Answer is good for faces in the streets but sucks ass for keeping on message to put those people there.

I really am pissed this is all they are covering.

They better show some real marches later on.

[NoodleyAppendage]

56. Conflating the Iraq issue with HAITI???? What the f*ck?

This rally today is a disaster. Instead of a focused approach on Bush and the war on Iraq, I feel like I'm watching a socialist rally for a laundry list of other grievances around the world.

Cindy hitched her wagon up to the wrong train this time...

B

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

66. Bringing up Haiti was appropriate as it was listed what we did to Haiti

with Bush's sins.

[NoodleyAppendage]

And having the Leader of the Haitian Communist Party give the message??

Maybe you're an ANSWER shill or something...otherwise you are hopelessly blind to the fact that conflating every issue with Iraq only delutes the power of the anti-war message.

JB

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

84. I didn't hear him. I had heard Ramsey Clark bring up Haiti. nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

92. Can't remember his name, but he was on the mike right after Clark.

B

[G_j]

74. and a Republican backed coup under Bush

is not related? It is an international crime and Bush is responsible.
The issue is relevant IMO.

[Seen the light]

58. This is making me so sad

People watching this on TV right now are probably laughing hysterically. *sigh*

[Finder]

191. As they say in PR circles...

"Any publicity is good publicity."

[6th Borough]

263. ...as they say in a PR circle jerk. This reminded me more of Nixons sweat

...that an anti-Iraq war rally.

[rman]

271. You might have noticed very few people here agree with you

I do hope ANSWER does get the message.

[Gemini Cat]

61. Thank-you! I agree.

People who are turning in now are going to be saying a lot of wtf.

[Alizaryn]

63. From Will Pitt

http://www.truthout.org/campcaseydc.shtml
"Saturday 24 September 2005 1:46 PM

The march is unable to move because there are so many people coming in from all directions. Constitution Avenue is a wall of humanity. I am up on the hill that holds the Washington Monument, looking down on the crowd. This is a massive, massive showing.

Hot damn. "

At least they were not lieing when they explained that there were too many people there to move. Makes me feel a LITTLE better.

[coffeenap]

69. Great news--someone get the cameras to that event!!! nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

75. Excellent News! Thank you! nt

[rosalux]

64. THESE ISSUES ARE ALL INTERRELATED

Open your minds
I am tired of catering to timid middle americans
Let's just speak the bloody truth to power!
Where else will we ever hear about these issues?


But I can live without the poetry, too.

[Alizaryn]

76. I totally agree with you

However, there is a BIG difference between speaking effectively and what is happening now...IMO. It never serves your cause when you force people to shut you off because they are either not ready to hear or in overload.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. If This Is An Exercise In Catharsis It Has Succeded

If this is an exercise to win allies to our cause it is counterproductive...


Hell, If I subscribed to tin foil theories I'd claim ANSWER is funded by the RNC....

[Individualist]

79. Bringing up other issues FRAGMENTS THE ANTI-WAR MESSAGE

To be most effective, the focus should be entirely anti-war

[mcscajun]

91. They may all be Interrelated, but that doesn't mean you have to

speak about all of them at once.

The American Public is like a small autistic child, unable to weed out the message from all the static. Too much stimulation and it shuts down.

Truth to Power is great: Can we please just deal with One Truth at a time? This was Supposed to be about the War ON Iraq and getting the troops Home!

Everything else is secondary to that for those who came to march against that war.

[northamericancitizen]

210. American Public: autistic child? No. More likely

ADDHD: attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity. Not being able to focus on one thing at a time cause too much stimuli.
But I agree with you that in order to keep the attention of a (ADDHD) kid you have to look at him/her in the eyes and speak about ONE Truth at a time.

lise

[coffeenap]

65. This is not the time to bash anyone but Bush--this is the first time in

forever that we have a real chance for real coverage and it is being wasted on countless unrelated causes. There are thousands of good, noble causes in the world--today's rally is for only one: IRAQ-BUSH. We are wasting the opportunity of a decade. shit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. This Is Why It Took Us So Long To Get Out Of Viet Nam?

The current speaker just called for the end of Israel or an Israel that is dissolved and subsumed into Palestine...


This will really win the hearts and minds of Americans....

[seabeyond]

68. now they threw in ralf nadar, after so many turned their backs

on the speakers. look at them run back. so funny fdunny

[wellstone dem]

70. Do you think the organizers have noticed

that a ton of people have left the rally!!!! Do you think they have a clue????? It's as bad as talking to the right. Gee Whiz!!!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

71. If our movement was organized better, the speakers would be...

Howard Dean, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Dennis Kucinich, Jesse Jackson, Barbara Boxer...as well as non-politicians like Cindy Sheehan, Will Pitt, Steve Earle...

and speaker after speaker would be demanding answers from the White House, demanding an accounting of the money and the lies, demanding an end to the war and a refocusing on the problems we have here at home that are now so clear to anyone who has watched even mainstream coverage of what happened after Katrina.

Damn.

[coffeenap]

77. How true, how true. When Ramsey Clark spoke, he spoke to a

much larger audience than anyone so far, imo.

[whometense]

205. Did you hear how

everyone was yelling "NO!!" when they told Ramsey Clark his time was up? He was great.

[coffeenap]

222. Yes--there is person who can speak for us with the possiblity of

being heard by a wide audience.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Yeah...

I was a kid but remember seeing Ted Kennedy speaking at some anti-VietNam war protests....


A mainstream politician can't get tarred with the ANSWER label....

[whometense]

Couldn't agree more.

I want to preemptively say that I do take the antiwar movement very seriously.

BUT I was reminded at times of the Life of Brian:

REG:
Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah...
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters...
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
LORETTA:
And the People's Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We're the People's Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People's Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He's over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!

[mcscajun]

73. A.N.S.W.E.R. is the problem...not the solution.

This item on the A.N.S.W.E.R. website makes it clear they cannot stay on a Single, Focused, Shared, Message. If they run the show, the show is a three-ring circus. It's not ANSWER, it's A.N.S.W.E.R. (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism). When you remember that, you will remember that they always have at best a twin focus. When you look at this poster, you see the hints that this march was always going to have a split focus to begin with:



I saw the same lack of focus when I marched in NYC before the war on Iraq began. Too many causes to which I did not completely agree were bundled in with what should have been the sole focus. And before you jump on me, I'm not saying that it's the causes in the signs pictured above with which I take issue. What you see on that sign is only a fraction of the "Jump on the bandwagon and change its direction" protests that glom onto any anti-war protest. It's the "function creep" that keeps many away. It's part (but not all of) what kept me from the D.C. march.

The Republicans know how to stay on message. While we certainly don't want to BE them, it couldn't hurt to be just Little Like Them In This One Thing.

[loudsue]

80. Protesters need to start BOOOOING ANSWER when they do this.

Answer is VERY well funded by the people who want to disrupt the REAL anti-war protests. ANSWER is subverted clean clear through, and the REAL progressives need to start booing loudly when ANSWER starts this shit. Then, we need to shout over their loud sound systems, and shout them down....or set up our own sound systems FAR AWAY from where ANSWER has their protests. They are trouble-makers, NOT peace demonstrators!

We need to QUIT hanging out with these people!!!!! THEY ARE NOT ON OUR SIDE!!!

:kick::kick::kick:

[coffeenap]

81. I'm booing--but I don't think they can hear me from Illinois.

[blogslut]

105. not booing...chanting

What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq? What about Iraq?

[loudsue]

113. Good choice of words! That should work, and help show C-span

that we're onto the ANSWER people.

Progressives are NOT going to let big money infiltrators mess up our mission this time. ANSWER is nothing but another huge "corporate whore", and we don't need 'em.

:kick:

[blogslut]

121. sweet

but how can we get that word to the physical protestors?

[blondeatlast]

190. Good idea. nt

[PeacePal]

82. Omigod....a word count of the text for the last hour would be:

My guess, from high to low:

1. Palestine
2. Israel
3. Red Bucket
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
18. Iraq
19. Peace

And the visual is a bunch of bored, confused people wandering away, losing interest...

I HOPE, HOPE, HOPE that when (if) the MSM shows a few spots, it's at least of people marching!

My only consolation is this: Most people find CSPAN too boring, all that talk about politics, ya know? When we could be watching a football game or a news anchor in a slicker, why watch CSPAN?

I'm hoping that mentality means it's only US, the people stuck at home who would give anything to be in DC this weekend, who are watching the CSPAN fiasco.

[barbaraann]

85. About ANSWER:

The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition formed on September 14, 2001. It is a coalition of hundreds of organizations and prominent individuals and scores of organizing centers in cities and towns across the country. Its national steering committee represents major national organizations that have campaigned against U.S. intervention in Latin America, the Caribbean, the Middle East and Asia, and organizations that have campaigned for civil rights and for social and economic justice for working and poor people inside the United States.

Steering Committee:
IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Haiti Support Network
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Phillippines
Korea Truth Commission
Muslim Student Association - National
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Party for Socialism and Liberation
Middle East Children's Alliance

http://www.internationalanswer.org/

[icymist]

86. I just turned on C-Span about thirty minutes ago...

Out of ten speakers, only one mentioned the Iraq war. So far, I heard that this was an A.N.S.W.E.R. rally that was about:
-Freeing Palastine
-ending all wars in Africa
-how evil the US is in all the world
-Freeing the 'Cuba Five'
-reading poetry

I was under the impression that this rally was supposed to be an anti-war-in -Iraq demestration. How to kill a movement is to make it about every issue under the sun. As long as A.N.S.W.E.R. is going to hijack every cause, all protest against this mis-administration will be in vain.

US OUT OF IRAQ, A.N.S.W.E.R. OUT OF OUR PROTEST!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. At Least I Get To See Jessica Lange...

I prefer to remember her from her "The Postman Always Rings Twice" days...

[RevolutionStartsNow]

93. LOL I was just going to post about her

I love her. Plus we have something in common, we both love Sam Shepard. :)

She's a good speaker. And whattya know, she's talking only about Bush and his lies about Iraq. Good for her!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. I'm Still Stuck On The Kitchen Scene

eom

[rosalux]

98. Nice to see

that DUers can still hold on to ageism and sexism
I guess that is why we have to "stay on message" and think about how all of these issues are related.
When you disrespect humanity anywhere on the planet, you contribute to Bush's agenda.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. How Is It Ageism Or Sexism To Be Titillated By The Postman Always Rings

Twice?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

100. What?

What does Jessica Lange have to do with ageism and sexism?

She's a great speaker, she's clear and on message and the crowd loves her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. Cuz I Wanted To Remember Her On The Kitchen Table With Jack Nicholson

She made that movie out of her own volition and was presumably well compensated....


Oh, her speech was excellent and topical....

[RevolutionStartsNow]

116. I hear you

but my "what?" was toward the poster who suggested your Jessica Lange flashback was somehow ageist or sexist. I wasn't sure what that was about.

She was a great speaker, I agree. Good stuff.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. My Fidelity Is To The Truth

Yeah, he or she had a point... My language was not elegant...


I said I prefered to "remember" her that way ....


He or she inferred I meant to remember her that way , young and beautiful, frozen in time.....


That wasn't my intention.....


But that scene was smoking....

[RevolutionStartsNow]

144. Oh, I get it...

I totally missed that poster's point.

I have to say that Jessica Lange STILL looks smokin'...

[PassingFair]

208. Looks like he's "still stuck"

in seventh grade as well.
Jessica Lange has struggled against her image as a sex symbol through much of her career. Looks like she's justifiably concerned.
I have achieved much beyond my fulsome youth. To think that someone would dismiss me now that I'm in my forties kind of confirms my impression of most men.
Why doesn't he take his madonna/whore complex out to Hooters and leave real love and compassion to the rest of us?

[charlie]

117. Haw

She's still got that dangerous smile, too. And having Sam Sheppard around to put the polish on a speech is a big plus.

[Arugula Latte]

90. Can't some other group beside ANSWER organize a massive protest?

They do this every time and dilute the message.

Focus, people, Focus!

[mcscajun]

They get there first and fast with the cash and plan for the permits.

That's why they're always running the show.

Somebody with the money and organization needs to step up FIRST next time.

This is embarrassing.

[WinkyDink]

94. I'M DISGUSTED. This happened to the OTHER anti-War marches in NYC in 2003.

Palestine, aka the non-existent country that former Jordanian Arabs claim for some reason, is NOTHING TO DO with Bush's illegal war on Iraq.
If I had made the trip to D.C. from PA. for this, I'd want to THRASH somebody.

THIS WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A GENERIC THEME TODAY!!!!!!!!

[sellitman]

218. I agree.

ANSWER is funded probably by the same monsters that send their own children onto buses strapped with bombs.

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. Nader and Lange got things focused on Iraq again

------------------------------------------------------------------
Peace Rally SUPER THREAD:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4870788

Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time:
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[K8-EEE]

97. Yeah I'm Totally Bugged Too

Felt bad for the crowd to see this hijacked -- you could see they were uneasy, they were leaving. I'm not supporting anything ANSWER, ever...this was just rude. People didn't come there for their agenda.

[malaise]

108. What is wrong with you

There are over 250,000 people marching in DC. It is the media that is covering the speakers and not the march. You'll have to wait for the photos. Whoever organized the march and brought out all these people deserves congratulations. Read Will Pitt's blog.

[mcscajun]

If a protest happens in D.C. and nobody sees or hears it...

...does it make any impact?

Not Really.

A.N.S.W.E.R. done screwed the pooch again, and C-Span just played along.

[malaise]

124. They managed to get 250,000 plus people

on the streets of DC. Blame the media for not giving the march proper coverage.

There are thousands of people marching.
http://cam02.trafficland.com/trafficimage.php?system=pub&webid=200126&pubtoken=eef51f3bc42c14dd5c10211343a93cc2&random=0.47999117960504656

[mcscajun]

138. I DO Blame the media...I also blame A.N.S.W.E.R.

for once again running the show without a sole focus.

[malaise]

153. The focus is to get hundreds of thousands of people

on the streets to oppose Bushco and they achieved that.
We're all angry that we aren't seeing the march except on traffic cam but this is one hell of an achievement here.

[mcscajun]

158. Many of us are angry about not seeing the march,

but many of us are also VERY Angry about the message being Fragmented all to hell!

:grr:

[malaise]

171. Numbers matter most at this time

The march is moving - they police are moving barricades to allow the people to march now. Hopefully we'll soon see the marchers.

Edit - add sentence.

[Tinoire]

235. Yeah and you were all sitting at home instead of being out protesting

LMFAO :rofl:

This thread is absolutely hysterical.

[K8-EEE]

242. I Do My Neighborhood P&J Protest Every Week

I don't think just because someone doesn't trek out 3,000 miles away from home they can't have an opinion on the speakers -- I was excited to watch them but the Refusnik guy was the only one who wasn't wacky or boring (of the ANSWER group I mean -- I did see the other speakers later.)

[Tinoire]

252. Does it really matter what any pro-war people think? Or how it "looks"?

No one's sitting on the fence with this issue- by now they're either for the war or against the war. People got out in the streets and that's all that matters. Sigh.. thanks for protesting when you do. You're not my target anyway... My targets are the people who after every ANSWER come out with the same tired crap we're seeing on the boards today and have never once gotten off their duffs to protest. All they do is criticize... But when it comes to defending the pro-war Dems, those same posters are out in force spinning total crap trying to weaken the antiwar movement.

[K8-EEE]

259. No It Matters That This Idiot Chick Is Making People Chant

Free Free Palestine which is NOT what the rally is about...and everyone's sitting around looking at each other and then leaving...pathetic.

I do NOT think people came because of ANSWER. I've been to a lot of protests here where 85% of the crowd is rolling their eyes at the antics of those people. They annoy me, that's the truth, am I supposed to not say so? I think EVERYONE should let these people know they don't own the anti-war movement.

[6th Borough]

264. Well, I know you have been here for a very long time and have not...

compromised your values or opinions...but I think ANSWER sucks shit.

And no stylized, airbrushed vision of a potential Palestinian flag is going to completely eliminate the state of Israel from the face of the Earth.

Where ANSWER is, I ain't.

[WinkyDink]

248. And you were where?

If a Dem, you were home, too.
If a Repub, you were home and not in Iraq. THAT would make me laugh, sardonically.

P.S. I DID march twice to PREVENT this evil.

[Tinoire]

251. I was? And you would know this how?

LMFAO. Hung out with a bunch of antiwar DUers, mods included, protesting. Jesus. I knew the reasoning in this thread was off but I didn't realize it was THIS bad!

[loudsue]

262. Nope. THE BLOGS got 250,000 plus people there today.

And one helluva lot of those 250,000 people wish ANSWER would get their heads screwed on right about protests.

:kick:

[rman]

269. Lots of people feel that way

It looks like only a minority thinks it's ok to push topics other then what people came to the demonstration for.

[mcscajun]

101. I wish C-SPAN would start showing footage of the MARCHERS

From Will Pitt's blog on Truthout:

"The march has surrounded the White House. Hundreds of thousands. This is the largest march I have seen in the over two decades that I have been attending."

THIS is what we need to see! This is what the Folks who are still drinking the kool-aid need to see.

NO News outlets are showing the march...they're all on the Hurricane Rita story...practically full time.

And C-Span makes the rally the focus...not the march.

:grr:

[KharmaTrain]

102. A Major Reason I Didn't Go

While I have sympathies to the various other causes that people spoke about, the focus right now has to be on the American struggle to get accountability from this regime. Ending the Iraq invasion, and making those who wage and profit this invasion accountable is what needs to be done. Other issues should be heard, but as a sidenote, not a co-sponsor of such an important event.

Two months ago, I started asking and then looking around at the various organizations that were planning events in Washington. I was hoping to see a more coordinated effort...but seemed everyone had their own plans and agendas they wanted highlighted with the cause Cindy originally started this protest about.

While I'm impressed with the showing and how many there appear to be following through on sticking to the anti-invasion theme...and it's great to see so many diverse people coming together...we're still not united enough for our voices to be heard as loudly as they can or should. Hopefully we'll be talking about a Spring march with twice as many people...and if that's not enough, next September with twice as many again.

[Mari333]

110. well thats it I turned C Span off.

its too shrill now.

[KharmaTrain]

126. Look At The Crowd Now...

If I had been there, the second Nader stepped up, I'd be heading for the exits.

Now it's raining. Maybe that will shorten the speeches.

Yes, I know these people worked hard and spent a lot to get there, but right now this is turning into a gold mine for hate radio talk show hosts that will be played over and over for weeks to come.

BTW...Hi Mari :hi:

Good to see you and hope all is well...

Peace...

[Mari333]

143. Yes,the right wing radio hosts have plenty of fodder now

oy. Hi, peace to you too. I attended every anti war protest in DC with my husband, but this year I just couldnt make it alone. One day at a time.

[KharmaTrain]

176. It Makes You Stronger...

I'm waiting for a rally, not a strict protest. I not only want to go to show anger, but to show and share optimism. While I saw a bit of that today, we still need to find a way of turning all this angst into something positive...something that attracts others not only to agree with how we believe but will join us with their feet and voices, too.

[marions ghost]

212. I believe this is the problem

WE NEED A RALLY --not a strict protest, as Kharma train says.
WE NEED TO TURN ANGST into something positive.

We need better organizers who really know how to do this. I have worked with organizing cultural/political events--this could have been done much better and with much more focus and impact.

[LSK]

103. NOW ITS GET OUT OF THE PHILLIPINES??

CAN IT GET ANY MORE CLEAR HOW ANSWER IS FUCKING THIS UP BIGTIME??? FUCK

[mcscajun]

Not from *their* perspective. This is *exactly* what they wanted.

Big Media Coverage for all their causes and speakers.

Which they'd never get if they hadn't captured control of the Anti-War permit market.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. How disappointing

I was just bumming that this hurricane is taking over the news this weekend so I switched to CSPAN and what do I see? A.N.S.W.E.R. - some girl talking about the Phillipines!!

[mzmolly]

106. Unfortunately, many antiwar demonstrations become clouded with

other rhetoric.

[Alizaryn]

109. Okay,

the Phillipines now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. The Sad Thing Is There Are Two Sides To The Phillipines Story

Abu Sayaf and the Moro National Liberation Front have the blood of innocents on their hands...

[colbushwhacker_2000]

112. I am pissed.

I don't give a fat fuck about ANSWER...........I want an end to our immoral war in Iraq and the impeachment of Bu$h and Cheney..........damn it, we look like idiots, once again, by letting ANSWER set the agenda for this march......I want to puke right now..........

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. My Girlfriend Is A Filipina And A Lefty...

but she wouldn't recognize her country from this little passion play..

[colbushwhacker_2000]

125. Fuck it

......that is just how I feel right now, what good does it do any of us who want to rid this planet of Bu$h and Co., when those who have agendas that are not concerned about the rampant and unchecked corruption of Bu$h and Co. ?

[mzmolly]

129. And people wonder where "Hilary, Kerry and Dean" are?

Pathetic.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

132. Probably at this point, very relieved that they are not there. nt

[nashville_brook]

114. ah, the politics of protest -- beware the agents provacatuer

this has the potential to get ugly ugly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. Xactly...

Provacteurs- They are trying to discredit the agenda by radicalizing it...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

123. I was going to just post about this. I think ANSWER is. I believe that

they have deliberately slotted a good many of these speakers (who are sincere) to do just that.

[nashville_brook]

223. Christopher Guest needs to do a mockumentary of the protest culture

it's always so painfully obvious who's who (and then sometimes it's not).

[blondeatlast]

246. He'd be spot-on with this. I LOVE this idea! nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

118. GET OUT OF THE AZORES! GET OUT OF THE CANARY ISLANDS!

I think they need to infuse the ANSWER rally water with Ritalin...

JB

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

128. lol! We have to save not only the canaries but the parakeets too! Budgie

lovers unite!

[Tower]

148. Get out of the stock market! Get out of your house! Get out of you MIND!!!

And join ANSWER!

[seabeyond]

119. now this is just embarrassing. this is sad n/t

[Seen the light]

122. Oh.....my.......God. Shoot me now.

[derby378]

127. It's "Pink Floyd Karaoke Night" at the ANSWER stage now

Woo-hoo! Hurricanes for everyone at the bar!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[blondeatlast]

198. Only laugh I've had in this thread! thanks! nt

[seabeyond]

130. bah hahaha. that is funny. and ya n/t

[colbushwhacker_2000]

133. I agree

I knew this was going to happen........damn it all to hell, let's focus on getting rid of Bu$h , Cheney, Delay, Frist and the rest of those corrupt bastards........get off our asses and go to work in 06, we must take back the Congress, then we can go forward with impeachment, indictment and imprisonment for these assholes............

[Tower]

164. Oops- double post.

[minkyboodle]

135. WTF

this went from bad to just plain bizarre. I wish CSPAN would switch to the marchers, there is like no one watching the rally right now but they continue to cover it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

137. The thing is that the march doesn't really start until the speakers stop.

[mcscajun]

145. That hasn't stopped folks from circling the WH

according to Will Pitt:

The march has surrounded the White House. Hundreds of thousands. This is the largest march I have seen in the over two decades that I have been attending.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

147. This is great news! Thank you for letting us know! nt

[mcscajun]

150. No thanks due to me...it's all over at Truthout.org

http://truthout.org/campcaseydc.shtml

I merely pass things along... :)

[Generic Other]

136. WHY AREN'T WE SEEING THE MARCH???

Is Cspan trying to make it look like only a small gathering at ANSWER?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

140. According to the organizers, the march doesn't start until the speakers

finish their spiels. I certainly hope that people have said screw this and have started to march on their own.

[mcscajun]

163. They have...

http://truthout.org/campcaseydc.shtml

[colbushwhacker_2000]

141. I just stopped

.....watching.....can't take anymore of this bullshit.......I want Bu$h, Cheney, Delay , Frist, Hassert. Cunningham, Ney, Mad Dog Steve King, Weirdo Santorum, et al...........in fucking prison.....no more ANSWER now or in the future.......

[Opusnone]

139. I smell Karl Rove!

I suspect something fishy about this tight coverage of the ANSWER rally.
Agents provocateurs j'accuse!

[Alizaryn]

142. Hummmmmmmmmmmm

The inflated Bush heads have just made me see how much Bush looks like the one of the angry critters in "Where The Wild Things Are"

http://app.ddot.dc.gov/services_dsf/traffic_cameras/map_15.asp

[BiggJawn]

146. Again????

Didn't they hijack things the LAST time there was a huge march in DC?

[mcscajun]

152. Again...always...but from their standpoint, it's not hijacking.

They have the permit, they run the show, they set the agenda.

BAH!

[BiggJawn]

178. So what if they got the permit, put on the show, and nobody showed up?

Looks a lot like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. Chuck says "You're gonna yank it away from me"
And Lucy says "Oh, No I won't Charlie Brown"
And he says "OK, here goes.....WAUGHHHHHHH(thud)"

After 2 times you'd think people would learn to stop being meat puppets.

[mcscajun]

185. True.

But some folks want very desperately to show BushCo how we feel, and you can't blame 'em for that. Many folks just don't know what A.N.S.W.E.R.'s deal is, until they show up for a rally/march.

The ANSWER is that someone ELSE has to get there first next time with the money, the plan and get the permit first! Then they can set the agenda and keep A.N.S.W.E.R. off the fuckin' STAGE!

[charlie]

155. Whatever they're up to, it ain't working

The crowd's dwindled to a few handfuls of groupies. Looks like one of those pitiful Freeper rallies now.

[rman]

279. It's their mode of operation

And they seem to be deaf to criticism

[Cookie wookie]

149. This is same o same o

International Answer co-opts the peace movement, they get the microphones and the stage and they do their little communist/socialist thing. They alienate the mainstream. I've seen them before on their stage with the audience first looking uncomfortable, then starting to boo, then just walking away. The same thing happened at their rally in the same spot last year. The same thing has happened every year.

They gave out information on the rally under the banner of "United for Justice and Peace," not "International ANSWER." I told my friends who are up there now, that UFJP was just a front for ANSWER and ANSWER is made up of people with an anti-American, Communist agenda. When they talk about the "imperial US" they aren't talking about Georgie and his gang and their pre-emptive illegal wars, they are talking about the US system of government. I've heard enough from them to know that they aren't fighting against the criminals and corrupt politicians who have hijacked our democratic system of government, they are fighting against our democratic system of government.

Why we can not have an antiwar movement, rally and march where we can get control of the stage/microphone for mainstream Americans is something I can't fathom.

[Alizaryn]

151. WOW

Will Pitt blogged that CNN has estimated the crowd to be more then six hundred thousand!

http://www.truthout.org/campcaseydc.shtml

[mcscajun]

181. I read that on Truthout, too...

...I'd love to know Where/When they said it.

It's not on their website, and they're still covering Rita. Possibly it was on the crawl?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Self Avowed Communists Now

This is rich...

[Mari333]

161. God!! This is insane. stfu, ANSWER!

[mcscajun]

188. They won't shut up...it's their party.

:(

[Mari333]

156. Oh christ, the speaker on now actually says hes a communist

oh brother. thats gonna play REAL well in middle america.

[seabeyond]

157. now we have a communist up there. wtf..... monday, we need an

attack on answer and what they have done here. a lot of people spent personal money and a lot more to get to the march. we need to go after answer for this

[Opusnone]

170. On the other hand...

Maybe the riot cops will focus on the communists and leave the Democrats and others alone.

[seabeyond]

177. i wnt to see hte march. i dont want to listen to this crap

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

159. Now this is interesting. I'm trying to work and listen at the same time

without looking at the video stream. The crowd has thinned dramatically in front of the speakers. What is really bad is that they are showing these speakers, hardly attended while according to Will Pitt the White House is surrounded. Not good at all.

[LittleClarkie]

160. Wasn't that the fear when some folks found out it was an ANSWER rally?

I'm not by a TV, so I can't see.

Dang. If it's indeed being hijacked, I'm sorry to hear that.

[Mari333]

166. Its been hijacked

Its a clusterf*ck.

[charlie]

168. They're speechifying

But there's almost no one left listening. Sad sight.

[Mari333]

175. People who were just starting to wake up about Bush

will be totally turned off if they watch this..My family are all republicans, and believe me, this wont play well in Indiana, and I was JUST starting to get thru to them. OY.

[charlie]

182. They're gearing up a whole new clutch of speakers

across the street at 3 o' clock. I've got a bad fear C-Span is gonna move their cameras over there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

165. There's A Dozen Protesters Left

C-Span is making it look like a Freeper Rally...

[Mari333]

169. Yep. I am cringing. Oh brother.

[Lars39]

179. I toddled over to the Current channel awhile ago.

Cindy Sheehan and Camp Casey was the featured pod. I could just scream.

[Tower]

167. If you're part of ANSWER, you're part of the PROBLEM.

Seriously- their hearts are in the right place, but Jesus Christ- could they BE any more media illiterate? Get out there and stay on the fucking message.

This sort of wacko 'travesty potpourri' will drive more people away than it attracts.

[seabeyond]

173. and shame on you. if htey are keeping cspan from showing

us the march, so they can continue with their "message" shame on you.

this march is much bigger than answer, yet they abused what they were given here,.

i am mad

[Alizaryn]

184. Well said

They should be leading the cameras into the march, 600,000 people and we are watching people vent.

[Mari333]

183. Brothers and Sisters!!! God! this is so lame.

[Lars39]

172. Rally started at 10:30 cst, 1:30 and ANSWER speakers

are still being featured in front of a very sparse crowd.
Why aren't they showing the march itself?

[melody]

174. nobody watches speeches but the activists, what matters is the march

The number of people present and marching will be all that anyone will remember from this day. Hannity Insanity & Co. will be snarking about the speakers (and I *do* think a lot of this is Agent Provocateur stuff), but they only preach to their own choir anyway. The mainstream will never hear this garbage (and it's a damned good thing).

[RevolutionStartsNow]

189. You are right. I'm worked up about this crap on CSPAN, but...

not too many people watch CSPAN in the middle of the day anyway, except those of US who wish we were in DC.

Hopefully (and it is a bit of blind hope) the media will report about the hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, rather than the ANSWER speakers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

180. There Is Literally Nobody Left....

Now C-Span is showing speakers talking into the wind...

[Mari333]

186. the screaming is unnerving.

[Finder]

187. Big Tent

This is how Bush came to power...by using many small organizations--sometimes in contradiction to each other--to rally to a single cause and allowing said speakers of each to speak out on their pet issue.

The attitudes here against ANSWER are why progressives have NO power today. Have we forgotten we are the movement of tolerance and compromise?

Look at who voted for Bush...fundies and neocons--strange bedfellows for sure yet both have a voice and are rewarded.

Without ANSWER and other big tent organizers there would be no rallies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

194. If You Added Up All These Fringe Groups We 're Still At 1% Of The

Electorate...


There are forty million fundies ... There aren't forty million people in favor of independence for Puerto Rico....

[mcscajun]

195. The difference: They rally to a single cause.

A.N.S.W.E.R. rallies to dozens.

I could do without a rally...all we really need are focused MARCHES...without A.N.S.W.E.R.

[Finder]

209. Every speaker I saw was against "OCCUPATION"

of Iraq as well as their country of expertise when applicable. I think the apathetic NEED to see that Iraq is not the only country we are raping on the taxpayer's dime.

I do agree the screaming and ideological bent of some was a bit "out there" but no different than when a baptist sits through a fire and brimstone sermon...the approach is different but not the result.

[mcscajun]

214. They may certain Need to see it...but we won't reach anyone

by not keeping on message. That's the Only Lesson, and the most important one, we need to learn from the Republicans.

One Issue at a time, please!

[rman]

274. So ANSWER was there to EDUCATE people?

Not primarily to demonstrate against Bush and the occupation of Iraq?

The two apparently don't go very well together, as evidenced by people's responses here and during the speeches.

[rman]

273. The Bush movement was all on-message

We aren't.
In so far that there is a "we" - there definitely is a large "we" on the matters of military retreat from Iraq and Bush's retreat from the WH. There's not such a large "we" on all the other anti-war issues combined.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

196. OMG. There is NO ONE left listening to the ANSWER speakers

They have all left and joined the march, I'm sure.

There are maybe 10 people standing in front of the stage.

So WHY WHY WHY is CSPAN still there?

[mcscajun]

201. Because C-Span is always about the Talking Heads...

...whoever they may be.

Marchers? They don't say much...well they DO Shout Some.

:grr:

I keep flipping around...all the news outlets are all Hurricane all the time.

[Imajika]

197. Glad I'm not the only one feeling this way...

I posted basically the same thing in another thread because I hadn't noticed this one.

I was prepared to be attacked for suggesting that this ANSWER rally is not really the best way to push the anti-Iraq war message, so I am glad to see that lots of people agree.

I would say that of average Americans watching this on CSPAN, most would be less supportive of the anti-Iraq war movement after seeing this. Free the Cuban 5? US out of the Philippines? Freedom for Puerto Rico now? Give me a break. This just looks like a collection of radicals.

Do we really need all the anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian rhetoric? Does every speaker have to talk about America as if it's the worst country on earth? How did ending the occupation of Afghanistan get tied up into this (a US/NATO troop presence that has the support of the UN, NATO, the vast majority of Democratic officeholders, most Americans, and most Afghani's)? Wouldn't it be better to just stay focused on withdrawal from Iraq?

This is just really awful.

Imajika

[mcscajun]

199. FREE the Anti-War Movement! FREE it from A.N.S.W.E.R.!

:grr:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

200. I'm Disappointed...

When they said Larry Holmes would be speaking I was expecting to see the former heavyweight champion....

[minkyboodle]

203. LOL

nice one

[AbbeyRoad]

202. Is the march currently going on?

All I see on CSpan is people giving speeches to a sparse crowd. This is seriously annoying. They could even do a split screen with the march on one side if they want to keep covering the speeches, right?

[donheld]

204. Where's Cindy Sheehan

They never seem to even mention her.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

211. She spoke briefly shortly after the rally started. nt

[icymist]

A.N.S.W.E.R. works for the Republicans, right? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

207. And ANSWER has kept people like me away from the marches

maybe if they are involved in SD time to stay home

[Behind the Aegis]

213. Me too!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

215. I deliberately didn't go to the one in NY last year because of their

involvement. I didn't know that they were behind this march until I saw the CSpan programming.

[tlsmith1963]

216. I Was Thinking That, Too

How can we have a united antiwar movement when ANSWER makes it about all these other issues, too? I mean, they are legitimate issues but they distracted from the main message. Next time there is a big antiwar rally, ANSWER needs to tone it down so the main message can be heard.

Tammy

[mcscajun]

219. Don't hold your breath...

This is their idea of a "main message":

[milkyway]

220. The republican stooges at answer have done their job well today.

I'm a guy that thinks the bush admin did 9/11, and these assholes have turned me off, for crissakes. I can just imagine what the average American would think.

And I get really tired of listening to a laundry list of every fucking crappy thing the U.S. has ever done. There's two anti-American movements in the U.S.: the BFEE and the answer crowd. And they both need each other.

Thanks, answer, but I'll stay home and listen to Bob Dylan today instead.

[Martin Eden]

221. A.N.S.W.E.R. is why I stayed home this time

I attended the March 15 2003 Washington D.C. protest, but I wasn't too pleased with A.N.S.W.E.R.'s handling of the event. There were a lot of foreign speakers at the rally who could be construed as anti-American, which I thought played right into the hands of the conservative media and their efforts to discredit the protest.

If the antiwar movementis to succeed, I think it needs to appeal to the large swath of middle America that would be turned off by A.N.S.W.E.R.

[Fatima]

224. I went to the one that Oct

I didn't linger at the stage area long. Marched instead with the other veterans, screamed till I went hoarse, then went home. I used to subscribe to ANSWER's mailing list and sign their petitions but got very turned off (as I said in another thread) when I began to get mailings from the Communists. I was angry- I am do not care for the Communist way, and I have a security clearance which enables me to make a living and it can easily be revoked for such things. Then what, work for Wal-Mart? It's great that they help organize these events, but they need to stick to topic and stop using these events to promote their splinter agendas.

[Martin Eden]

285. The problem with A.N.S.W.E.R. ...

... isn't A.N.S.W.E.R. itself. With the world being what it is, the existence of that organization and the content of its agenda is legitimate and understandable.

The REAL PROBLEM is the lack of a mainstream American organization to organize these large-scale protests. I guess it's always the most radical and committed who will devote themseleves to the hard work of organizing. Most Americans are like me, for whom merely attending an event requires a major effort -- let alone organizing an event.

[caligirl]

226. Thank you for this thread. I was put off by it. Mixed messages are

not good for this issue. And answer definitly had too many messages competing with the single focus needed to turn Bush and the neocons around.
I sincerely hope Answer is not relied on in the future. I turned the channel specifically because of this.

[qanda]

228. So good to come back to this crap after walking all day long

My poor kids, 7 and 9, have sore legs and feet from walking all day at the rally. They complained a bit, but it was nothing like the whining I see from grown adults sitting comfortably behind their computer screens.

I didn't agree with everything that ANSWER had to say and there was even audible disagreement in the crowd when they started talking about some issues. ANSWER was not the focus of the people who marched today. Yes, there were many issues covered (perhaps even too many) and I even chimed in on another thread agreeing with Will Pitt that it was very disorganized, BUT I was there and I let my voice be heard. ANSWER doesn't speak for me any more than George Bush and this criminal administration speaks for me. I spoke for myself, I represented myself and I marched my black behind to the front of the White House with 300,000 other peaceful Americans to let George Bush know that, no matter the issue, I see his evil deeds and I will be holding him accountable.

And since you all seem to have so much time on your hands, I hope you will use it to organize the next great march which will contain only the message that you want heard.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

229. People Are Responding To What They Saw On TV...

C-Span showed the ANSWER speeches in their entirety and didn't show one second of the march...

[seabeyond]

247. we wanted craved demanded to see you guys walking.

so much we wanted to see yawl walking. we didnt get to see anything. but listen to speech after speech. i would have loved to see you 7 and 9 year old out there walking. that would have brought a tear to my eyes of pure joy

i wanted to see the white house surrounded. i wanted to see the 300k, i wanted to see the posters and signs

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

258. I honor your going and wish if only I could have but you didn't

have the perspective that we had here. We were waiting to see the sea of Patriots that you and your children were part of. We called television networks and wrote emails and all we received were speech after endless speech and many of them so irrelevant to the war. Not only irrelevent but many were also truly on the fringe of what most people believe. This is what was playing in proverbial Peoria, USA. The crowd kept on thinning and anyone who didn't know better thought that the demonstration consisted of maybe twenty people at the end. One of the purposes of demonstrating is to have your demonstration be seen, and then acknowledged. In MSM it was barely acknowledged..someone told me that MSNBC had mentioned it in their scroll. And your marching was never seen.

[BigBearJohn]

230. Please excuse my ignorance, but why is everyone against ANSWER?

[laura888]

231. Agreed! And the I/P conflict is right up there with oil as far as

...reasons why we are in Iraq.

If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourselves...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

233. If You Think A One State Solution Will Solve The Problem I Think You Are

Mistaken....


And Iraq in it's weakened form wasn't a threat to Israel....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

232. Well

I think it's because we want to win the hearts and minds of middle America and agitating for

-independence for Puerto Rico

-a one state solution for the Israel-Palestine problem

- an abandonment of our commitment to the Phillipines

among other causes only alienates them...

[caligirl]

238. Agreed. I planned to go into San Francisco for this with hubby,

son came home with car problems and we had to help him out. That cut out our time getting to Delores Park.

TV was a second alternative to going we had hoped we would not need.
That said, this armchair observer was still put off by the mixed messages sent out to the media and therefore the people whose opinion we hope to influence. It would be better if it were just the Bushies who are disorganized.

One idea at a time works better for the independent who is still trying to make up their mind about this stuff. Diluted messages just hurt the effort to sway people and win them over.

Ganda: Happy you and your kids could go to DC and do this, I tried and had an unexpected emergency so I sadly watched the damn tube.

[Scurrilous]

243. Middle America isn't watching C-Span...

...on a Saturday afternoon. They're watching college football. So why cater to them?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

244. Then Who Was The March For?

eom

[thebigidea]

268. for the marchers, for their friends, for their hope, for their conscience

certainly not for some asshole in Idaho watching flipping through the channels to laugh at "hippies" for a minute.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

284. i'm serious....

Yeah, the wingnut in Idaho is lost....


But the point of a protest is to bring attention to an issue while winning allies to your cause.....

[Tinoire]

236. They dare mention Palestine, interconnect the issues

and show our hypocrisy.

Not to worry BigBearJohn. many of us took to the streets shouting for Haiti, Palestine, Iraq and justice all over.

Injsutice anywhre is injustice EVERYWHERE- never mind the arm-chair critics sitting at home daring to criticize those who ACT.

Wanna know why we're still in Iraq America? Just read this thread and not how many people seem to thing that Iraq happened in a vaccuum and is an anomaly in US politics- Iraq is the effing norm! WAKE UP PEOPLE! HAD YOU BEEN OUT ON THE STREETS WITH ANSWER DEMANDING JUSTICE WHEN IT WAS JUST PALESTINE AND HAITI- WE WOULDN'T BE IN IRAQ NOW.

No reason to apologize, you're not the one showing ignorance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

237. Hi

Yes, in an unjust society the only place for a just person is in jail....


I want justice for the Hatians, the Palestinians,et cetera but these things can't be accomplished without making allies of the American people in our cause...

[Tinoire]

250. I think we have enough people allied with us

What I would really like to see are "Protest Days" where everyone protests wherever they are.

I find it very depressing to see all the criticism of ANSWER by so many when they have 364 days left in the year to organize their own protests and don't. That's what really bugs me- the whining because they don't like ANSWER. Personally I love them and think Ramsey Clark is a great man for founding it but what I can't understand is the criticism. Much of it seems very agenda-driven.

ANSWER isn't the reason the antiwar movement isn't getting as far as it should but those who smear it and try to destroy it because, for instance, they don't want any mention of Palestine made anywhere on the streets of America, without putting anything in its place are.
To not recognize the fact that the injustice in Haiti is based on the same greed, exploitation and imperialist attitude that got us into Iraq, is to beg for these injustices to be repeated over and over again. There's an attitude that has to be broken and it covers an entire gamut. I was heartened, absolutely heartened to see a ton of signs in SF taking people like Pelosi and Hillary to task because they have done nothing to end these injustices or to end the Iraq War. They just dislike Bush and that isn't enough because there's an entire machinery behind Bush that has to be destroyed so that we too can say Never Again!

Love you DSB. Gotta go... Action elsewhere is calling :)

[rman]

277. What is the demonstration about?

To protest Bush and the occupation of Iraq, or to take away people's ignorance?

The RW is so effective in getting their agenda realized because they take it one step at a time.
You just can't change people hearts and minds all in one go - it hasn't worked for the past 40 years or so. When will the activist Left finally learn?

[rman]

275. Everybody is against diluting the issues,

which is what ANSWER does. People aren't necessarily against ANSWER as such.

[ProudDad]

239. Demonstrations have ALWAYS been like these...

In the 60's, the anti-war rallies had the same characteristics as those of today (I just got back home from the rallies/march in S.F.).

1) A few highly committed people with different main focus but a common cause against the bastards that run the show do the heavy lifting to organize and run the marches/rallies. This takes money. Money is collected. A dollar now isn't worth a dime back then...

2) A large number of speakers with a wide range of "causes" speak.

3) The main substance of everyone's cause is a desire for Peace and Justice against the forces of War and Injustice.

4) No one listened very hard to the speakers.

5) The media coverage was always one-sided, misleading and superficial.

6) No one really heard what was said ESPECIALLY "middle amerika" (whoever the f*ck they are).


6) Most of the people who marched/attended were uplifted and energized by coming together in solidarity for the cause of Peace and Justice.

The attendees returned home with their batteries recharged for the constant battle between, yes dammit, between Good and evil.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

240. .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

241. Question

"6) No one really heard what was said ESPECIALLY "middle amerika" (whoever the f*ck they are)."


If you are not protesting to change people's minds when does protest become an exercise in intellectual vanity...

[thebigidea]

272. or an exercise in building morale, hope, and fellowship

but its funner to bellitle folks who get out there and put themselves on the line for this kind of sniping.

[ProudDad]

286. EXACTLY

To paraphrase Scoop Nitzger, "If you don't like the 'protest', start one of your own!"

[BigBearJohn]

245. Very well said

[Iggytop]

249. Agree !!!

They fill seats. But I think they scare away many many more ...

[laureloak]

254. Agreed. Message diluted by side issues.

[Zuni]

276. I fucking hate ANSWER

I didn't come to cheer North Korea. I went to protest the Iraq war and bring the boys home. They are an embarrasment to the anti-war, sane left with their stalinist ideology and utter lack of tact

[rman]

278. It seems lots of people ignored ANSWERs schedule,

and started the march on their own accord.


"Any of you who are active in groups, small groups or large groups - know that there is just a natural tendency that you have to resist, towards centralization of control and authority.
There are going to be certain people who are interested and willing to take on responsibilities and make decisions. Others are busy, not interested enough. And groups can tend towards highly authoritarian, bureaucratic control. Those are tendencies that you've got to be aware of and overcome."
-- Noam Chomsky

[Rhiannon12866]

280. Yup. That's their core issue, always has been. But they are also

vehemently opposed to the war in Iraq. As far as I'm concerned, the more people who come to the table on this, the better.:shrug:

[ProudDad]

287. No. It was about Peace and Justice

and illegal occupations of anywhere...and injustice anywhere.