I'm right, you're wrong.

[GirlinContempt]

(I posted this in the lounge, and thought I'd solicit some ideas from GD too)

I have pretty strong beliefs in different areas, I'm opinionated, and I obviously believe that I'm right or I wouldn't bother with the ideas.

However, I also think there is a difference between believing yourself to be right and talking about your opinions, and outright telling someone else they are wrong. Disagreeing with someone about opinions isn't saying "you're wrong" it's saying "I don't believe that to be true, this is what I believe to be true".

It can sound like a lot of pussyfooting around, but I think there is a valid distinction. On a lot of things, I have a hard time believing that either I am totally unconditionally right, or that someone else is totally unconditionally correct. I'm not talking about, say, how many kilometers from point a to point b, but things like where government funds should go.

Now, that doesn't mean that I am so unsure of my stance that I will refuse to put it forth, defend it, or debate it. It just means that I recognize the distinction between opinion and fact, and during discussion or debate will keep that in mind, no matter how strongly I disagree.

I've always had problems with this. If I believed in God with all my heart and soul, and believed that he was sending gay people straight to hell, would I be able to say that I would deny those gay people human rights? No, at least I don't think so, and I hope not. That would be like saying "I know I'm right, I know you're wrong, it's indisputable" which it isn't.

So, what do you guys think? Is saying "I disagree with you, but I hear where you are coming from" tantamount to saying "I am right, you are wrong, go to hell"?

This isn't the first time I've thought about this or been confronted with it, but it came up recently and I'm interested to hear the opinions of others.

To add:
I think that on a lot of issues, people seem to think that they are factually correct that, say, democracy is the best system ever because it has produced the best country the world has ever seen. However, they don't seem to realize that 'best country ever' is an opinion, not a fact. Sure there are lots of great facts about the country, but that doesn't make it in fact the best.

It's not just faith, but opinion. Sure, its a fact that there are x number of poor people in the world. But saying all poor people are lazy? Not a fact. Saying x number of poor people were, say, given reasonable jobs and homes and childcare and whatever, and then quit those jobs and sat around eating doritos is a fact, if theres something to back that number up. And that STILL doesn't make 'all poor people are lazy' fact.

[porphyrian]

1. You're wrong! - n/t

[GirlinContempt]

2. Clever

:P

[BlueJac]

3. To Deep!

[GirlinContempt]

16. pppft

:P

[Bluerthanblue]

4. Saying you disagree with someone

(when you do) is stating a FACT.

Allowing others to hold onto what they 'deem' to be 'truth'
without forcing them to say they agree with you, or convert to YOUR view only reinforces the stand which you have taken-

The FACT that you don't need to force your beliefs on others in order to feel safe holding onto them - is what I call deeply held beliefs, ones that are taken after alot of thought, and reckoning- and ones that should give others the desire to question their own- and see where they actually stand-

Maybe not 'with' you- but comfortably on their own ground, not just with 'the crowd', and without the need to 'convert' anyone.


Not sure if this makes sense outside of my brain. :shrug:

[GirlinContempt]

7. It kinda makes sense, yeah

[firefox]

5. Allow me to recycle my words

I put this up 3 days ago at DU and it somewhat addresses what you are saying. I see no reason to change the words in this message.

Keyword is disillusionment. The reality-based community is in a hand to hand struggle to spread some truth in this country and as it spreads the feelings will change from disappointment and grief to outright disillusionment. People have lived with an illusion their whole lives regarding US perfection and now we will see disillusionment sweep over the country.

People cannot admit that they are wrong and now many will see that they have been wrong about things their whole life regarding their country and perhaps their religion. There is an emotional toll to this that goes unaddressed by government because they cannot even admit it is happening.

I have some expressions like Schedule One Lie, Free Cannabis For Everyone, We are ruled by treason, policy by mythology, the largest majority rule/s that I am proud of . But there is one expression that I have called my tombstone remark that can be found with an exact phrase search. That is "The hardest thing to say in life is I am wrong." The Republican Party will some day have to say this. The country is going to have to say this. But for now, there really are people that are suffering and will suffer with the most grand of disillusionments. It will be the hardest thing for people to say they are wrong, but once they say that they will have to admit that they have been wrong their whole life. It makes me wonder if the hardest thing to say in life is I have been wrong my whole life.

I know I could use some Free Cannabis all along and the only reason we do not have Free Cannabis is that WE ARE RULED BY TREASON and goddammit, I am not wrong.

[hfojvt]

11. this is an interesting discussion

but not getting alot of attention.

I think you would have a very hard time convincing even me of the truth of your last two lines especially since you used the emotionally charged word 'treason' which does not have a commonly accepted definition. You are certainly not using the most commonly understood meaning of the term which is 'disloyalty to the status quo'.

Also, I am not sure I buy the reality-based/faith-based dichotomy as the basis of our struggle. It seems to be less about the truth than it is about the theory, and below that even values. The theories are the way the facts are framed or perceived, and proving the truth of a framework is perhaps more about values than it is as clear-cut as going from Ptolemy to Copernicus. I try to bring statistics and measurement to many discussions and have gotten blown off from both sides of the political spectrum. The attitude is 'my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts.' We often believe what we do, and interpret statistics the way we do because of our worldview.

Also, sometimes it is not that big a deal to find out you were wrong, because you just find out that you have been lied to. In other words, you only have to admit to the dishonesty of others rather than to your own intellectual failings or gullibility. This usually happens to people alot, you find out your parents lied to you about Santa, your SO lied to you about their feelings, your friends lied to you about their feelings, etc.

[Double T]

6. Depends on your core values, beliefs, and ideas as to whether......

something is 'right' or 'wrong'. A republican or neocon is going to believe that tax cuts to the rich people and corporations is 'right and good' because they have bought into the 'idea' that trickle down economics exists and ALL will benefit. A liberal or Democrat might believe that tax cuts to the rich people and corporations is 'wrong and evil' because they understand that the tax cuts are being funded by deficit dollars and eventually somebody will have to pay the bill or the Chinese will foreclose on the United States. Further, these Liberals or Democrats don't believe in trickle down economics because it is a republican or neocon 'trojan horse' used to justify the act of cutting taxes to those that already have most of the money. Who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'????? We could go on and on with these examples BUT IF IT HAS NOT BECOME OBVIOUS TO YOU WHO HAS THE BEST LONG TERM INTEREST OF ALL THE PEOPLE IN MIND, THEN YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. The 'greater good is right' and the 'selfish greed is wrong'. YOU HAVE TO PICK A SIDE, NOT WALK THE FENCE; YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!!!! There is a 'right' and there is a 'wrong' and you know which side you are on. Don't make excuses for the 'wrong' side.

[GirlinContempt]

8. I don't think you really

got where I was trying to go with the post.

[hfojvt]

13. it may be a little bit tougher than that

"the best long term interest of all" is what the neocons are perhaps aiming for. They have a somewhat Darwinian (or Spencerian view). It is very hard to predict what is ultimately going to be good for either the people of our country or of our world, and it is not clear where the Democrats are on this either.

For example, if these tax cuts are so bad, then why didn't Democrats filibuster them either time? Why did Jean Carnahan and Dennis Moore, Democrats from Missouri and Kansas, run campaign ads in 2002, bragging that they voted FOR the Bush tax cuts?

My huge beef with them on this issue is that Republicans that I have discussed the issue with and read about, such as Bush, Grassley, Nussle, Ryun, Brownback, will not even admit the simple measurable fact that the Bush tax cuts are mainly "to rich people", and most of the public does not seem to know that either.

[Zhade]

9. I just go with the old adage: "you're entitled to your own opinions...

...but not your own facts."

[GirlinContempt]

10. Exactly

It's just that we seem to have lost the distinction between fact and opinion. Sure you form an opinion on fact, but that doesn't make it fact. blah

[Zhade]

12. If it has verifiable independent evidence backing it up, it's likely fact.

Like, say, that the Earth revolves around the sun.

If it doesn't, it's opinion - like "Intelligent" Design.

[patdem]

14. 1st off..my opinion has no validity..unless I can create a LAW that

validates my opinion...otherwise..it is just an opinion. The religious reight wants their opinion to become law..the rich reight want their opinion to become law....unless and until my opinion becomes law it is nothing more than an opinion. AND I cannot force my opinion on others unless by law. That is a FACT!

[GirlinContempt]

15. I dont know if law is equal to fact

Opinion is equal to law if your opinion is the law, but I don't think that all law is fact.

[Qibing Zero]

17. The problem lies in how the mind works

The mind is not readily able to account for what it does not know, and as a result we all think we have the answers. That's why open discussion is so important. Giving a small amount of weight to every single opinion you hear is paramount to being able to think freely. Chances are, you'll be realizing that some ideas change, and some are more reinforced, but overall you're able to consider topics on a more broad spectrum.

Now, when it comes to so-called facts, examples, etc.. - if you are going to consider them, you need to have as much information surrounding them and their source as you can. The best 'fact' is always your personal experience.

The problem is that many people believe they have the absolute truth, and that's the most dangerous thing you can ever do to your mind. The mind projects that outward, and it becomes like a cell wall: only letting in what things meet it's requirements. This ends up closing off logic and reason... it's saddening to see.

That's not to say you shouldn't have convictions though. No, you definitely should, else you would get nowhere in life. It's important to consider all of the options, and then choose what you think will be best. We have to at least try, even if we fail, and unlike those 'absolute-truth-ers' we'll at least admit we were wrong and change for the future. Not admitting wrong was never a virtue, nor should it ever be.

I think this is how I've somehow come to be the most opinionated, yet most open person I know.