Lost real estate records, lost legal records in Louisiana.

[madfloridian]

I found this from one of the Genealogical mailing lists to which I belong. I just tonight checked out the New Orleans lists. The one I am posting the quotes from I found on the Florida list by accident.

Mortgage records may be drowned

Orleans documents are in basement

By Greg Thomas Real Estate writer

Thousands of lawyers in the metropolitan area have lost their files, their clients and their offices, but one of the biggest legal ramifications of Hurricane Katrina's flooding waters is the probable loss of real estate records dating back to the early 1800s.
The records, which include titles, mortgages, conveyances and liens, were stored in the now-flooded basement of City Hall on Poydras Street.

In 2002, employees of Register of Conveyances Gasper Schiro began the tedious process of entering the records into computers, a $700,000 process that could have been contracted out and accomplished quickly but was instead done slowly by his staff to save money.

It's unclear how much of the information has been digitized or whether the computerized information is stored safely. If either the original records or the digitalization is lost, it will be a major mess, said Southern University Law Center Professor Winston Riddick, who teaches real estate law.

While it will be a tedious process to fix, and it can be fixed, it will be a major headache that could take years. The records involved date back to

1827, with the earliest recorded by hand in Spanish and French.
According to the American Center of Real Estate Lawyers, or ACREL, the loss of the records could be devastating to the local real estate industry.

The process of restoring the information could be incredibly tedious and create havoc for homeowners who will be filing insurance claims, said Professor Riddick. While he expects insurance companies to honor claims by owners who have copies of their insurance policies, the potential for delays and other hassles is very real.

New Orleans real estate attorney Marx Sterbcow of Marx Sterbcow Law Group said Friday that the loss of the records, stored in the musty, moldy basement of City Hall, may be just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to storm-related problems for Louisiana attorneys, citing a memo e-mailed to Louisiana lawyers by Southern University Law Professor Michelle Ghetti.

"Many ACREL members have been in touch with us to express concerns for colleagues in the region. Members have been generous with offers of office space housing and other support," Ghetti said.
Real estate records aren't the only ones affected. Ghetti estimates that as many as 6,000, or two-thirds of the state's attorneys, have lost offices, files and other documents critical to civil and criminal legal cases.Several court buildings were flooded by Hurricane Katrina, including the basement in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals and the Louisiana Supreme Court building.

For City Hall records, Sterbcow said, "it's the mortgages that's going to be ugly. To put it mildly, how are you going to be able to prove if you own a piece of property if your records are gone? How are you going to be able to prove you have a mortgage, or one is paid off?"

Records for the 24th Judicial District in Jefferson Parish are probably in much better shape than the records in Orleans Parish, Sterbcow said.

Jefferson Parish sounds like they're going to be ok for mortgages and conveyances,'' he said.

And here is a group of mailing lists for Louisiana if any of you are interested in getting involved. I don't belong to any of these for that state, but just perusing them is quite interesting.
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/usa/LA/

One of the most active appears to be the Louisiana Genealogical & Historical Society (LGHS) at this link.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/LA-LGHS/2005-09

Genealogists are avid about records, so some of you might be interested in working with them.

[Journeyman]

1. Let's turn this question around. . .

To put it mildly, how are you going to be able to prove if you own a piece of property if your records are gone? How are you going to be able to prove you have a mortgage, or one is paid off?

How is anyone going to be able to prove they held title to my property if the paperwork is gone?

"Well," I'd say, "all my records were destroyed in the flood -- same as yours, I guess. But I've been here for years -- my neighbors will attest to that -- but I never heard of you or your bank before today. What proof do you have that you hold the paper on my home? I'd say, in this instance, possession is the lion's share of proof."

[madfloridian]

2. Many don't have inpossession. They are dispersed through the country.

So that is another way to look at it. Scary thoughts all the way around.

[Art_from_Ark]

8. Surely there are still parish property tax records

that show the owners of the properties?

[anarchy1999]

14. ummnh actually no, they've been swept away, buried, gone. Get the

DRIFT? NO RECORDS LEFT ANYWHERE. Now What? Piece of cake, isn't it?

[Art_from_Ark]

18. Are you saying that all the records were on paper media

and were stored below the flood line? That there were no records, either on paper or electronic media, stored above the 2nd Floor?

[anarchy1999]

13. good luck with that line and guess you never lived much in this part of

the country. Peace be upon you. Good luck with that "lion share issue"./

You've obviously never lived in this part of the world.

[Norquist Nemesis]

30. Actually, bank records should be able to help support

someone paying on a mortgage. Also, tax records.

It's going to be a big mess though.

[CountAllVotes]

3. yep and so are the records of ...

my late mother who was adopted in Caddo Parish. They've lost the records in Louisiana so many times over the years (fires mostly) that I find it disgusting.

No records left now. I guess I'll never know the truth which is far more valuable that some real estate record. I wonder how many other "human beings" have disappeared as a result of this? HOW MANY and oh yes, btw, who were they and where did they live? Does anyone really care? :argh:

:kick:

[FloridaPat]

4. Good time to disappear and take on a new identity if one is wanting

to do that. So much gone. Wow. What a nightmare.

[Peter Frank]

5. What About Voter Registration?...

...This may be a dumb question; but how are these people going to be able to register if they can't prove where they live?

It would sure be a sad state of affairs if an important election came down to the quagmire here.

[illuminaughty]

9. No, not a dumb question! Actually, brilliant

These poor people in these parishes are the same ones that had hideous problems voting in November.

It was rampant with disenfranchisement of black and poor voters. I bet MoveOn PAC has tons of info in databases.

[Peter Frank]

16. Don't Get Me Started...

...you know what I mean.

BTW illuminaughty -- brilliant user name!

[SoCalDem]

6. Payment records are surely on computers

the paid off deeds could be a problem though:shrug:

[anarchy1999]

12. SoCalDem, you 've no idea. How backwards and what has been lost.

It is far too convienient.

Bad, bad comes this way.

[FloridaPat]

20. Depends on if the banks have disaster recovery and the backups

aren't in the same place the bank is. I heard of one bank in NO that their disaster recovery back-ups were in the next parish. All gone.

[pitohui]

21. the banks have now recovered ALL information

even my small bank recovered ALL information in a matter of days

i think the smallest bank affected by katrina was omni bank, every physical structure was destroyed, yet their information has been fully recovered

you see, even tho it be the south, we are NOT the idiots some would have you believe, we DO know abt these storms & we DO have off-site storage of important records, just like in chicago & new york, imagine that!

i have not yet figured out the motive for the fear-mongering, but i'm sure time will tell the purpose of these rumors being spread...and why...i don't believe the person primarily responsible for spreading these owners on this site even owns property in louisiana, their claims seem unbelievable

[anarchy1999]

7. All I can say is oh dear god. This is bad. I spent several years doing

title searches in all of Southwest LA. My heart is broken. This is a nightmare of disastrous proportions.

I've got to get involved. I've been in everyone of these parish courthouses. Abbevillve was a favorite as was Cameron and all points south of Lake Charles. This is more than I can take or even begin to imagine. I loved this area of this country so much. This is not real.

[illuminaughty]

10. Hard to explain this area to those who haven't experienced it

I am numb. I'm trying to plan my involvement but everything is in limbo right now. My brother and extended family is in Alex right now. No one's life will ever be the same.

My sister in law's Dad is being taken home tomorrow to Oberlin. He's never spent more than a day away from home since WWII. He doesn't care about conditions. Just wants to be home.

[anarchy1999]

11. I'm so sorry and I can't even begin to imagine. Just I've been there and

love every community. What can we do?

[illuminaughty]

19. Your post in the other thread really scares me

"contacts that want it to be so". I feel so strongly that this was "done" (to N.O.)and so do the people coming out. I'm in touch with a family here that has photos from day one. I posted this when people first started talking about the barge, but everything was so crazy at the point in time. This person says that Panavision wants the property he owns, that they've wanted that area for quite some time.

I know the owner of Decatur Hotels is in the mix also.

I am so sad. I just told a friend (who has actually been to N.O. and East LA. twice with me) that I couldn't wait for her to see my brother's area. Acadiana. I was talking about a little restaurant called D.I.'s in the middle of nowhere in Basile. It's the best food, zydeco band and every age of all races bring their family there and dance. Never seen anything like it in the U.S.

My little group here has a lot of ideas swirling. Hell, they got the family I'm talking about out of Camp Gruber in Okla. by dressing in fatigues. (I kid you not) We wondered if there'd be any proof of where people lived in utilities database. I'm just in a holding pattern until I know more about my family's area, but we are definitely headed down when Orleans Parish opens. This person has film and sound equipment to retrieve. Sorry, if this is confusing, I just am trying to avoid some details. I'm so happy just to see someone like yourself who understands what a loss this is if we don't fight. Any ideas?

[anarchy1999]

28. All I know is that we have to stand strong and fight. I don't know what

else to do. The powers that be are strong and mighty. Without a united front all stand to lose. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

I know too much.

[anarchy1999]

15. You all have just no idea the nightmare coming. I'm heartsick.

n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. No, the real nightmare is going to be eminent domain. nt

[shance]

26. Yes. This breaks my heart, especially that carpetbaggers are planning

to profit off of so many New Orleans' tragedy. They are no different than the Great White. No they are worse, because a shark is just doing what they do, looking for the next meal.

The carpetbagging criminal consciousless, predators have a choice and they choose to feed unfairly and illegally. They are the worst form of crooks.

This was intentional so that they could steal the land from those who dont have homeowners insurance or anything else that could prove their ownership.

If its not intentional, then give them their land back.

[Mairead]

17. I hope they realise they mustn't let the records dry out til separated

If they let them dry clumped together, they'll never get them apart again.

[lakeguy]

22. couldn't you just re-wet them?

[Mairead]

24. No, there's some bonding process that takes place as they dry

in contact with one another. So if you re-wet them, they disintegrate when you try to separate them. Whereas if they've not yet dried, they're just wet but retain their internal integrity as sheets.

[Norquist Nemesis]

31. They need to get them off to a freeze-dry

Several years ago, we had water damage to books and periodicals at the university library I was working in at the time. We shipped the materials to a place that did a freeze drying process on them. They didn't come back perfect, but they were saved by doing that.

Oh, one more thing. It's terribly expensive.

[madfloridian]

23. Ok, here is an article with a brighter outlook. Same writer, same paper.

I did a search on Greg Thomas, Times Picayune, and found this. There are no dates on the post I found before, this just says Monday, 5 PM

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_12.html#079128

Most N.O. property records can be salvaged

5 p.m., Monday

By Greg Thomas
Real Estate writer

Most of the property records in the basement of Orleans Parish Civil District Court are salvageable from flood waters and may be ready to use within the next few weeks, Custodian of Notorial Records Stephen Bruno said Monday.

Stored in the courthouse basement, which took on nearly a foot of water during Hurricane Katrina, moisture was the biggest enemy to property records. Abstractors -- those who conduct the title searches that must take place before a real estate transaction closes -- should have access to them within the next few weeks, Bruno said.

The records include titles, mortgages, conveyances, liens, wills and other documents.

Munters, the Swedish records restoration company hired to preserve the nearly 12 million pages of titles, liens, mortgages and other records, is putting the documents in freeze containers to dry out, Bruno said.

“We dodged the bullet,’’ Bruno said by cell phone, driving back into the city from Florida, where he evacuated from Hurricane Katrina. Bruno and other city officials are seeking a permanent – and safe -- location to keep the records.

“I’ll tell you one thing. They’ll never be stored in the basement of the courthouse again,’’ he said.
Documents stored in the New Orleans Research Records Center on the third floor of the former Amoco buildng at 1340 Poydras St. also survived, but broken windows have left the records threatened by exposure to heat and humidity, Bruno said.

Those records, considered more important from a historical perspective, date back several hundred years and include slave records and land grants from Spanish and French colonial periods that are handwritten in French and Spanish, Bruno said.

Munters is pumping air conditioning into the Research Center through a broken window to dry out the records instead of risking further damage by moving them to a more protected area.

According to Bruno, the building engineer at 1340 Poydras said the structure’s heating and air-conditioning system is relatively intact and that once power is restored, humidity and moisture can be removed from the building."

The other article was sent to the mailing list on Saturday Sept. 3. This one sounds so much better.

[RazzleDazzle]

27. Do you have a link?

Please?

[madfloridian]

29. Here is the site it came from originally, a cheerier later article.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_12.html#079128

Do a search, the one I posted above was from the 3rd of Sept. This one sounds cheerier, far better, but I don't know how Rita figures in.

Lots at this Times Picayune website.