It's painfully obvious that evacuating a major US city is NOT possible

[Horse with no Name]

In retrospect, New Orleans did a much better job than Houston and had 2 days less notice to do so.
They need to hit the drawing boards and come up with better guidelines.
I think things that should be addressed are:

1. No vehicle can have less than 3 people if it is evacuating.
2. At least ONE gas station every 10 miles--preferably all--supplied with emergency amounts of fuel. FEMA should be there to help pay for those who can't.
3. National Guard strategically placed along escape routes to pull stranded vehicles off to the side and help fix them.
4. Realistic estimates of how many people who WON'T be able to leave town (NOLA had realistic estimates of 100,000) and I would say that was pretty close. Provisions should be made for these people with a one-week stockpile of MRE's and water...as well as a place for accomodation...even if an existing building has to be modified to a different building code. Our cities spend billions on sports stadiums in tax cuts, etc, it is time our money was spent on infrastructure vital to the survival of the citizenry.
5. On a utility bill ONCE a year (most likely water bill)--have a box that can be checked if that person would need help evacuating in case of emergency. Also give a number on a public service announcement every so often that a person can call to add their name to the list. This way, the city can pinpoint their needs for buses and in what areas they would be most beneficial. Then notify the people of THEIR evacuation plan.
Find designated places in these areas for these people to meet up and be bused out. There wouldn't be any question, they would have a pretty good idea of how many buses to send to each area.

[madrchsod]

1. you`re hired!

better plan than the people who are in charge right now..

[0007]

10. Another winner was the duct tape and plastic man

and the morans that cleaned out the shelves that contained these items.

[hobbit709]

2. Stage the evacuation

Having all of Houston run at the same time didn't work so well.
Alternate routes- A friend of mine living in south Houston made it to San Antonio in 3½ hours. Of course he didn't get within 10 mi. of I-10. He said there was no traffic on the route he took.

[Horse with no Name]

5. Definitely they need to stagger it

They should also be prepared to give motel vouchers for those that meet financial requirements.
Also...they should designate at least one bank that stays open so that people can get checks cashed and get money to get out of town.
They have enough to REALLY plan an emergency evacuation now. The people that died evacuating should be their motivation.

[pitohui]

3. so it's ok to kill single ppl & childless ppl

what kind of jerk would say only vehicles w. 3 or more can evacuate

my husband was trapped out of town at the beginning of the evacuation, so you would leave me to die rather than allowing me to load my own car w. what i can save & my own animals

there is often some bold discrimination against the childless in our society but yr proposal sure takes the cake!

let me spell it out to you in words on one syllable -- MY state has contraflow, the traffic was moving, i evac'd at speeds of 60 miles per hour, sometimes more

i'm sorry the state authorities of texas are useless & don't know how to do contraflow but that's your problem, it shouldn't be MY problem

louisiana & mississippi already have a contraflow plan that works, we don't need a plan that guarantees lots of dead single women, women alone can't be going around picking up strangers, sheesh, get a clue train

[Horse with no Name]

8. You mean single and childless people have no friends??

How incredibly sad is that?

[Bridget Burke]

12. This single woman stayed in Houston.

Because storm surge was not a threat to my neighborhood. If we'd gotten a direct hit, it would have been a scary night. But I probably would have survived. I have friends, but possibly none with extra room in their SUV's.

Your proposals need some work. From Houston media, I've got a pretty good picture of the failures & successes of our evacuation. What are your sources?

[Horse with no Name]

15. Oh geeee

Let's see. How about reading the accounts of the people waiting on the interstate for 20+ hours...some people dying, getting sick, older kids having to wear diapers rather than go to the bathroom in the car.
How bout the ones who waited for 13 hours only to return home because they were safer in their homes than on the interstate.
The people who abandoned their cars on the sides of the road because there wasn't any gas.

It was a nightmare evacuation--I can't imagine it being successful except to the people who got out without a hitch.

I didn't say my suggestions didn't need more work...however, writing something on a message board for DISCUSSION is still allowed, isn't it? I didn't pass any laws while nobody was looking.

[Bridget Burke]

21. I don't need to read any reports.

I saw them on local TV. Some of those people didn't need to evacuate--even if we'd gotten a direct hit, those not in danger of storm surge (& not living in trailers) should have stayed at home.

Why are you so angry that other suggestions are being made?

[Horse with no Name]

23. I'm not angry

But I have to ask why "others" are?
This is a discussion board...discussion is welcome.

[Feron]

35. Well try fitting three people...

And three cat carriers in a car that seats four.

Ain't happening.

And there is NO WAY I am leaving my cats behind.

The point of an evacuation is to get people out. Rules like that would only strand people in an unsafe area. Implementing plans like contraflow are more efficient than being a bean counter.

Evacuation routes aren't glorified commuter lanes. Contraflow in Louisiana worked very well for Katrina after learning from the mistakes of Ivan. Hopefully Houston will learn from Rita and implement a better plan for the future.

[SocratesInSpirit]

37. I can see your point about more people per car

to lessen traffic...

But in my situation, there'd only be me and my husband to fill our car...I work in another state and he works very long hours so we don't have any friends in our city...and people may not want to leave their cars behind if they can help it as they are awfully expensive to replace and many depend on them to get to their jobs.

[Bridget Burke]

4. The Houston area is far larger than New Orleans.

A few facts:

* Many evacuated who were NOT in danger from Storm Surge. Those in sturdy houses many miles from the water would probably survive a direct hit. Staging would allow timed evacuations based on need.

* Don't depend on FEMA for gasoline. The State of Texas said they would send out tank trucks to refill gas stations. It never happened.

* Contraflow lanes had never been used in Texas before. TxDOT (Department of Transportation) was in charge--City & County officials have no power here. TxDOT needs to do some serious planning.

* Evacuation of people with special needs was handled pretty well. (The bus that burned was a charter, owned by a company which had an imperfect record.)

[Horse with no Name]

11. I knew that was going to be the case

I think I mentioned it in a post when the bus burned.
When that bus with those kids on a church trip wrecked in Terrell, there was a huge investigation done and there were quite a few bus companies in Texas that didn't meet standards that were still on the road.
Would be very interesting to know if this particular bus company was contracted by FEMA or privately by the nursing home?

[Bridget Burke]

14. I'm SURE the bus was contracted by the nursing home.

FEMA was pretty scarce before Rita hit. City & County officials were in charge. A bit more help from the State would have been good.

[Lerkfish]

6. actually, I thought of a perfectly workable solution this weekend...

Ever heard of a bucket brigade? where volunteers stand in line and pass one bucket after another to the fire and then another line passes the empty buckets back to be refilled?

here is Lerkfish™ patented evacuation procedure:

(simplified)

Anytown needs to be evacuated.

Emergency planners block hiways to set up short 5 mile runs that chain link on the way out of the city to safety.

At point A (origin), a greyhound bus (green) is loaded with evacuees. It drives 5 miles to point B.

AT point B is a working gas station. The green bus is emptied, and the first set of evacuees move to the red bus waiting for them, already fueled. The green bus returns back to point A to pick up new evacuees.

The red bus moves five miles to point C, where the first set of evacuees disembark and get on the blue bus. The red bus, empty, returns back to point B to pick up the second set of evacuees.

Repeat for every link in the evacuation chain.

Note, in this method, there is no gridlock, and all evacuees get to travel at least part way down the chain.

If I can think this up, why can't they?

remember, anyone who mentions this plan has to credit me.

:)

[tinrobot]

7. At least you have the chance to evacuate

Those of us on the west coast facing earthquakes don't have three days notice for our disasters.

[FloridaPat]

9. I would not want to leave my pets, clothing, computer, and other

irreplacible items behind. That one I don't agree with. I would like to know why interstates are clogged during evacuations. Get some police helicopters out and get the people holding everything up off the highway. We get the same problem in Florida. When the hurricanes hit last year it was taking people 12 hours to get out of the state.

I don't have water bills. Most people have electric bills but some stay in places where the bill is included in rent.

And getting buses to get people out sound great but who's going to drive them on the clogged highways. If I was a bus driver and a large hurricane was coming, my first priority is my family.

[cassiepriam]

13. yes you are correct. A terriorist attack will be bad. nt

[SlipperySlope]

16. Maybe we need to accept the impossibility...

It may be impossible to develop a system to reliably evacuate large cities in short periods of time.

What happens if we accept that and plan accordingly. Shouldn't we be putting some resources to making sure a large city can support and protect its population for 7-10 days?

For example, the Superdome was a clusterfuck. What if the superdome had been planned from the beginning as an emergency evacuation center, and had adequate stored food, generators, and comfortable facilities for the populus that had to reside there?

[Horse with no Name]

18. Exactly.

A city needs to know how many people will not be able or willing to evacuate and plan accordingly for that.

[MarsThe Cat]

27. why would any non-coastal large city/metropolis need to be evacuated?

an incoming ICBM would give virtually no notice- 60-90 minutes TOPS, realistically a lot less than that.

biological agents? the wind and rain will neutralize the threat before it can become widespread.

nuke plant on overload? a highly unlikely event in the U.S., that would probably give very little warning anyway.

I can't think of a realistic reason to evacuate cities like Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Indianapolis...etc...

other than hurricanes/tsunamis/floods- why would a major city need to be evacuated in the first place?

[amandabeech]

28. A dirty bomb or very small nuclear device might contaminate

an area, and trigger a subsequent evacuation of other parts of a city or other cities downwind.

Back in the '60s I remember some talk about evacuating cities in the event that things got tense between us and the Rooskies. Also, after a limited nuclear exchange, say, Moscow and Washington, other high value targets and cities downwind.

[Nikia]

39. Chemical diaster?

I don't know if the whole city would need to be evacuated, but if the diaster happened in a densely populated area, many people would have to be evacuated. Such diasters could include large chemical spills during transportation or industrial accidents. If a fire or explosion were involved, an evacuation would probably be even more necessary. An example of a chemical evacuation, which luckily happened in a small village can be found here.
http://server.firehouse.com/training/hazmat/studies/1996/07_wi.html

[MarsThe Cat]

40. a chemical spill would come with little or no warning-

and would most likely involve only a small population in a localized area- and odds are that it would dissipated by the weather/atmosphere before a large-scale evacuation could even be completed.

[Feron]

34. New Orleans is too unsafe really for a shelter....

That is why the Red Cross does not set up there. Plus establishing a permanent shelter encourages people who can leave to stay.

Not to mention that after Hurricane Georges, it is unlikely that any public facility in New Orleans will be used as a permanent shelter. After the Hurricane Georges passed, the evacuees looted the Superdome. Needless to say, that is why the city was so slow in opening it up to the general public for Hurricane Katrina.

I agree with your first point and definitely think that a city should plan for those that inevitably stay behind for whatever reason.

[gollygee]

17. What has FEMA been doing all this time?

How long did it take you to come up with that list, and do you have any specialized emergency training experience? Because I am shocked and disgusted that these kinds of ideas didn't come out of FEMA AGES AGO.

[Horse with no Name]

19. Took me 5 min

I am a nurse. I guess critical thinking is a skill that escapes all the fratboy cokeheads that Bush chums around with.:shrug:

[FlaGranny]

20. Some good ideas.

Perhaps all new public buildings should be built with facilities for shelters, including generators. Older buildings could be retrofitted. Every building strong enough for shelter should be documented beforehand.

Also, there needs to be coordination from the top (federal government) all the way down to neighborhoods. Each state, each county, each city, and each neighborhood should have coordinators. It would work from the bottom up so that FEMA would know in advance exactly what would be required in each area.

One problem I've found is that ice and water are taken to a central location and each and every family has to individually pick up their ice, water, and food. This creates long, long lines of cars, and much wasted fuel and time. Each neighborhood (set amount of city blocks or square mile of country areas) should have a designated group which would obtain supplies and distribute them in their own neighborhoods. This would make it possible for the disabled and elderly to be supplied. Each group would have a "ticket" which would designate how many people they are authorized to pick up supplies for.

P.S. I agree with others that you can't make any requirement that each vehicle hold a certain amount of people. What would you do with them anyway. Prevent them from evacuating if they couldn't find someone to bring with them?

[Texasgal]

22. I have an add on to your list!

How about evacuating by ZIP code?

[FlaGranny]

25. That would help, but

why in the world evacuate people who are not in a flood zone (or in unsafe housing), for any but the most severe winds? Very, very few people are killed by winds. Many are killed in the floods, though. I couldn't believe it when they tried to evacuate the entire city of Houston. It never made sense to me. In New Orleans, evacuating the entire city made a lot more sense because the entire city is a flood zone.

[Texasgal]

26. Houston was never under

mandatory evacuation, it was voluntary.

The problem is when you have a highly condensed area. The traffic problem wasn't just caused by Houston ions, there were people trying to get out all over. IE: Beaumont, Baytown, Port Arthur. Etc.

I agree that many left that didn't need to, but after the Katrina mess, fear and panic set in. No one was certain as to what would happen. Houston is also a notorious flood town. Even if you are not in a flood plain, you end up getting "stuck" in your dry area, essentially cut off from the rest of the city.

The bottom line is, things need to be changed. :hi:

[FlaGranny]

29. Being cut off by flood water

would not be "pleasant" but it wouldn't be fatal. After one of the hurricanes last year, we were two weeks without power or water. Of course, we had made preparations, so our only real problem was the heat without any air conditioning.

You are certainly right that things need to improve. There have been some really good suggestions here. FEMA should be asking people who have gone through hurricanes and disasters what needs to be done, and not relying on bureaucrats to come up with their nearly useless plans.

As I said above, coordination needs to go all the way down to local neighborhoods.

[Silverhair]

24. Usually evacuation is NOT needed at all.

The major damage from a hurricane is from storm surge and flooding. It is VERY easy to know what areas are in danger of those, and evacuate them.

If a location is not in danger of flood, then all that is needed is a very sturdy building for a shelter. Those can be locally available strong buildings. So instead of getting hundreds of miles away, with all of the problems of that, just go to a local shelter - unless you are in one of the flood danger areas.

I have been through several hurricanes and a typhoon. That is what I did for each one.

[texpatriot2004]

30. You are right, we could not evacuate Houston if we had to. n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Your title seems completely misleading.

You just stated how it should be done.

[MsTryska]

32. 3 words - High Speed Trains

a la japan - connecting to all major cities within proximity.


that way you ease the burden on highways, people without cars can leave too, and you are able to move many people at once.


http://o-keating.com/hsr/bullet.htm

[TX VN VET]

33. Agree Texas needs high speed trains, but!

HST's are not the answer for evacuation. Let's assume you have enough trains to make a run every fifteen minutes and that each train holds 1000 people. That's 96,000 people a day which is less than 5% of the more than 2 million people who evacuated Houston. You would also have to get 4000 people per hour to the station and have enough parking for the large percentage that would drive there.
There are some good idea's here that would make evacuation a little better, but there are just to many people to move. I do not think there is a total cure, it will always be a mess

[MsTryska]

42. you make very good points.

i'm just thinking thatr in combination with planes and automobiles, it might help things move more efficiently - that's stil 96K less people looking to drive or fly.

[donheld]

36. Good plan,,,,Recommended.

It's a good plan. A place at least to start.

[serryjw]

38. People were relatively calm

they knew they had a couple days..What happens when a major city has a 'man made disaster' that everyone is running away from? A million people will die from the panic.

[Stil]

41. They did stage the evac.

For flood zones a,b,c. Staggering first a then b then c. (It was mentioned like it did not happen a few times in the thread. ) Which were mandatory evac,s. One of the problems was originally it was "assumed" just the people in the zoned areas would leave. The numbers were derived from that. That left out anybody in trailers, or for that matter houses on blocks. Which Houston does have a lot of. If I lived in a house on blocks and a cat. 4 hurricane was heading my way I would be out of there. We left approximently on our evac. time. (Zone C) And ended up coming back that day after finding out it was heading up the coast from us. The key was the contra-flows not being opened. Not making excuses but, one other small factor was the Texas coast had a rolling evacuations. A lot of people down the coast headed toward Houston, to evacuate. Which probably did not help.