Which life is worth more? Beauty and scarcity or ugly and common?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

My recent house guest was a wounded Cooper's Hawk that had been shot by what is now a felon among other things. This is a protected species and a thing of beauty.

After making calls, I was told to feed the bird live mice, which I did.

I can't think of a worse death for a mouse than being consumed by a raptor. The Cooper's Hawk usually eats other birds and usually kills them by squeezes with razor sharp talons before eating them.

Anyway, it brought the question to bear that if I wanted to respect the sanctity of all life, how should I rationalize the sacrificing of other life to save another?

Any thoughts?

[ret5hd]

1. has nothing to do with beauty or common...

go with the scarcity.

all life is beautiful.

on edit: except for syphilus...that life isn't beautiful...destroy it.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. LOL... I guess that in that area, there are several life forms that we

could classify that way.

[ret5hd]

5. well, personally i don't classify viruses as life forms...

it's more like a proto-life form, so...aids, flu, etc: DESTROY!

for clarity: i know syphilus isn't a virus.

[AirmensMom]

2. That's the way it is in nature.

We feed our cats ground raw rabbit, which is better for them than commercial cat food. When I talked with the lady who raises and processes the rabbits, I asked how she can do such a thing. Her answer was that rabbits were put on the earth to feed the other animals. Sounds a bit cold, but prey animals do have to die in order for carnivores to eat. I'll admit, though, that it's easier to get the rabbit all ground up and looking like burgers than it would be to get a live rabbit and let the cats kill it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. What a great question to ponder

I think that we often attempt to ascribe human characteristics (such as morality) to animals. The bird has no compunction about getting what it needs to survive. I recently read a great book that discusses this at length, tho it is a novel, called "The Life of Pi."

I have a friend who attempted to raise her dog on a vegan diet. The dog did not thrive and she had to give in and feed it animal protein.

There is a religious sect in the Middle East (or there used to be..I studied them in college) who are so concerned about taking life that they breathe through fabric so as not to inadvertantly kill insects.

It is all about balance. And it is not black and white.

However, that said... I have a friend who raised rescued raptors and feeds them frozen mice. Any chance of that?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. With a little bit of luck, the hawk will be released back to the wild

in a couple of weeks.

She's at the vet's now. She gets a wire implanted and antibiotics for an infection from the gunshot wound. Send good vibes if you got 'em.

And it is a great thing to ponder. I've never been faced with it in a practical way before.

[teknomanzer]

6. All life is a sacrifice for new life...

The mice are not being killed simply to fulfill some base pleasure. Life in nature can be painful, harsh, and cruel. The value of life comes from the appreciation of sacrifice... Something modern folks have all but forgotten now that we can grab a tidy plastic wrapped container of meat, and perhaps a package of vegetables from the local grocery store. It is best to remember and appreciate the lives which give you life, and marvel at the very forces of nature that sustain and nurture life itself... therein lies the sanctity of life. Soon you will see that the common ugly mouse is not really dying but lending its form to new forms... such as a rare and beautiful Cooper's Hawk. (You will also see that there is not such thing as common or ugly as well... but that is a lecture for another day.)

[ret5hd]

8. exactly (nt)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

9. Very much agreed with.

Life has become artificial today.

It's a shame.

[Ladyhawk]

15. Agree. :D n/t

[cynatnite]

10. Beautiful bird n/t

[lapislzi]

11. Life feeds on life

Try to get around it. You can't. To eat is not to gratuitously take life. The bird takes no joy in its kill. It is simply performing the necessary actions to survive.

To paraphrase the late Stephen Jay Gould, nature is as we find it.

Consider it another way. Without predators, the mice could not survive either because they would breed indiscriminately, consume all the food, and die of starvation. The checks and balances in the natural world are a marvel.

I don't believe that taking life and respecting it are necessarily incompatible.

[bonito]

12. Well that bird certainly fell into the right hands.

Peace

[Ladyhawk]

13. I know how you feel.

I have mixed feelings about feeding my snakes. All but one will accept frozen / thawed mice. I certainly don't enjoy watching the life-and-death spectacle. Being squeezed to death by a snake is an even worse death than being killed by powerful talons. The talons would be pretty instantaneous, I would think.

In your situation, you should have zero guilt. Mr. Cooper's Hawk is going to be rehabbed and sent back to the wild. In the meantime, Mr. Cooper's Hawk has to eat. It isn't your fault Cooper's hawks eat other creatures. That's just the way it is. Nature is beauty and brutality in equal measure and it is neither moral nor immoral. Maybe "amoral" is the right word. Nature just is.

We humans have removed ourselves from nature. I laugh when hunters say that humans are part of the natural food chain. Um, no we're not. If we were, we would only eat wild plants and animals and there wouldn't be six billion of us on the planet. The natural carrying capacity of the ecosystem would not allow for that many people. I despise trophy hunting, but I don't have a problem with hunting for food as long as it doesn't deplete nature, since we are no longer a part of it.

The opposite of trophy hunters are people who refuse to acknowledge that in nature, life feeds on life. That's just the way it is. Living in a rural area, I've seen a lot of predation behavior. I never interfere because it is nature's way. Out on the ocean I even saw a killer whale take a sea lion. Yes, it is cruel, but it is nature's way. It just is.

Since people have removed themselves from the natural process, I feel we should stay out of it as much as possible, allowing nature to take its course. I've decided to respect life as much as I can and have a somewhat moderate view of taking life in order to support other life.

Think about dog and cat food. Think about what's in it. It comes packaged as innocuous kibbles, but inside are parts of real, once-living creatures. When I feed my snakes, I am reminded every time that life feeds upon life. There are no neat little packages of kibble to feed. There's a company that makes snake "sausages," but I think I'll stick with frozen mice. Many humans don't like to think about the natural cycle of life, of life feeding on life, of life and death. When I feed my snakes, I'm reminded of the cycle. I'm reminded that humans have left the cycle and how doing so has warped our view of nature.

In this case, some asshole shot a raptor. Humankind interfered, so humankind should intervene. You were right to save the raptor. The raptor can't eat veggies. Mice are the most humane choice available.

Don't feel badly. It's just the way things are. In fact, you did great! :thumbsup:

LH

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

17. Nicely said. I never felt guilty, just perplexed and even enjoying

the paradox that life is.

Peace.

[Ladyhawk]

14. BTW, is that THE raptor?

I saved a Cooper's hawk once, too. All I had to do was wait for animal control to show up, but the lady didn't have a clue as to how to handle the bird. I had restrained parrots for many, many years, so I offered to catch the bird for animal control.

Stupid me, I didn't anticipate how much stronger a raptor's feet are, how much sharper the claws are. One claw went right through the light gloves I was wearing and I had a little puncture wound to show everyone at choir practice that night. :D Note to self: if ever you handle a raptor again, restrain the feet correctly. :D

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

18. I have trained parrots from Macaws on down.... I rescued a juvie

eagle once when I was 14 and there were no groups that I knew of like animal rescue and the internet was 20 years away.

The talons are soooo much sharper that I could feel them easily through a pair of rawhide gloves. I was mainly concerned that she might rip my exposed wrist, but it never happened.

Call me nuts, but I believe she sought solace in my garage for something that's lost on humans. I have a large dog that was near the garage and an open field with lots of brush along the perimeters that would be great hiding for a wounded animal. Most of my family has always had a great rapport with animals. I'm probably one of the few here that has had the pleasure of raising and wrestling with an african lion (who was moved to a preserve many years ago, I took him from a traveling photo thingie that would go to malls to let kids get their pictures taken with a lion cub.)

Me? I think the raptor knew something I didn't even consciously know at the moment. Some people have an affinity with animals better than others.

Oh, and if she can beat the infection, she'll be back to the wild in just a few weeks.

Peace.

[Ladyhawk]

19. Excellent. :)

One of the first birds I tamed was a parent-raised, captive-bred Catalina macaw. He was still getting used to standing on my hand when a stranger burst through the door. He panicked, fell and grasped my middle finger--hard!--to keep from falling to the floor. The next day it was black and blue and swollen to at least twice normal size. If ever a parrot or other basically wild animal injures a person, it is never the fault of the wild animal. They're just doing what comes naturally. People, on the other hand, must learn to restrain correctly, judge "moodiness," etc.

When I rescued the Cooper's hawk, I underestimated the power of a raptor's talons. :D Guess who will never do that again. :) I've made a special note of how experts restrain raptors and they always--always!--hold the legs to keep the bird from grasping. After all, those talons are the killing weapons. They're supposed to be stronger than parrot feet. Parrot beaks...well, I've always respected those. :)

P.S. Is the hawk in the pic the bird that came to your garage?

P.P.S. Yes, I've found myself in a position to rescue quite a few animals. It's not so much that they come to me as that I keep an eye out for animals and can usually tell when something isn't right.

P.P.S. Thankfully, the Cooper's hawk I rescued made it back to the wild just fine. :)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. Yes, the bird in the pic is the bird from my garage being held by the Vet.

An I was always told with parrots, you do not jerk back or give in with a bite for two reasons: One: you might injur the bird, and Two: You will reinforce the behaviour (he finds out that your hand or arm goes away if bitten.

There's nothing like the feeling of a Blue and Gold Macaw grinding away on your arm or hand. It hurts like hell, but usually won't do any more damage than an alcohol wipe won't cure.

I'm calling back tomorrow to check and see how the operation went.

[Ladyhawk]

22. There are a couple of ways to humanely stop a bite in progress,

but yeah, it hurts! And no, never jerk back. :) If you do, the bird wins and won't forget it. :D

P.S. She's a beaut!

[newswolf56]

16. Thanks for posting this. Speaking as someone who spent half my years...

in real country (but is now by poverty condemned to live out the rest of my life in the spiritual dead-zone of a city), I agree with the other posters who cite the (now-increasingly lost) wisdom that predator-prey relationships are merely a part of the greater whole of Nature. If we are to live, we all must hunt -- and we all must garden as well. It is just that in this strange construct called "civilization," the tilling and the labor and the bloodshed of food-harvesting are kept artificially far away from "real life" -- and Mad Cow is but the most obvious of the dire consequences. Likewise the wanton shooting of the hawk: another expression of the same malicious disrespect for Nature that has been handed down to us via what I hope will someday be universally damned as "the curse of Genesis."

As to live rodents, they are typically fed to snakes too, for that is precisely what snakes eat in the wild. (In the South, a King Snake living under your house will not only keep your home rodent-free but will fiercely defend its hunting grounds from poisonous snakes as well -- greatly reducing the likelihood of stepping on a Copperhead while hanging the wash or coming up with a handful of dozing Rattler when making a nocturnal trip to the woodpile.)

In truth you've been given an opportunity most people are increasingly denied: a glimpse of the reality beyond what a far better writer than I once called our "concreted skies." And you may discover you have made a longtime friend. Raptors are (like so many non-human life-forms) far more intelligent than we give them credit for being: don't be surprised if, once returned to Nature, the hawk visits you on occasion, as if to say thanks.

Which I say too: thanks again -- not just for the post and its magnificent bird-portrait, but for taking the time and trouble to rescue the hawk, and most of all for sharing your passage.

[TrogL]

21. Welcome to the food chain

Big things eat little things.