US Out of Iraq Is Not Enough

[BayCityProgressive]

I am very disapointed in some of my fellow "progressives" who attack various activists on the left and do not look outside the box of Iraq.It is not just our Iraq policy that is wrong it is our economic and international policy the world over that is wrong. By focusing only on iraq we are only treating a symptom. In another five years or less we will be overthrowing another government or starting another war regardless of what party is in power if we do not change our ways.

both parties have supported the economic destruction of Cuba and assasination attempts on their leadership and biological attacks on the country as a whole. it was both parties who supported the slaughter of Vietnamese and Cambodians. It is both parties that supported apartheid in South Africa and support it now in Palestine.

It is both Dems and Reps who will not sign a peace agreement with the DPRK and get our troops out of South Korea( we also propped up a right wing dictatorship there). It is the reps and the dems who supported the overthrow of Allende and the dictatorship of Pinochette.It is the dems and Reps who led us to two wars with Iraq. Both parties supported the attack on Serbia.

Both parties have used deplete duranium on our enemies. Both parties supported Hiroshima (the only country to use such a weapon).Both parties support the corrupt Columbian regime. Even the "human rights president" Carter helped the death squads of South America and gave exile to the former Iranian leader. Both parties support our enslaving of Haiti. Both parties are complicit and corrupt. Our best hope is helping our progressive wing in congress such as Kucinich, Conyers, Waters, and Barbara Lee. Supporting Hillary, Biden, and other appeasers gets us nowhere..it is simply fascism for the rest of the world and table scraps to keep the American worker oblivious. Saying "US out of Iraq" is not enough...although it is a good rallying cry.

[lcordero2]

1. You are right

We are settling for too little.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. And both parties to Impeach the biggest Misanthrope to be unleashed..

in three decades.

[Iktomiwicasa]

3. Both of

your parties refuse to honor agreements made with my people. Crooks and liars , all of them.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. The love of money makes rogues of the many.... sorry to read

and hear about the plight of your people... I so admired Marlon Brando for his concern for native Americans.... It's not genocide when we do it... we are all too often a land of hypocrisy and we generally make a mockery of democracy... witness the last 5 years.

[wuushew]

4. unfortunately such views lie on the left side of a political bell curve

everything to the right including the mushy middle, comprises over 95% of potential votes in opposition to the only ethical course of action.

Is it any wonder the DLC looked at the numbers and decided to be whores?

[Mr_Spock]

5. Yes, out of Iraq IS a enough for now.

How can diffusing our energy on so many issues at once accomplish anything? I missed the :sarcasm: smiley in your post - please add one so people know you are being silly. We are a minority party now because of thinking described in the post above. Repukes are in charge now because they focus thier energy on a few issues that help get them elected. Waste our energy at the peril of our nation. NOT a good idea.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. I am not saying we should dilute the current message

What I am saying is that although iraq is the current crisis we should not become complacent witht he other injustices. Right is right and wrong is wrong whether it is popular or not. Just because it is "popular" in the US to slaughter third world people doesnt make it right and I hope to god you are never in the position of those people.

[Mr_Spock]

9. I agree we need to be dilligent on ALL fronts

and I'm sure if we leave Iraq that we will continue to attack all injustices no matter where they occur. Isn't it kind of insulting to imply that once the Iraq occupation is over that Dems will simply ignore all the other injustices occuring throughout the world? We've always been the people to fight the good fight against injustice - why would it stop after Iraq?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. I'm confused

WERE you being sarcastic? I didn't catch that. Your list of "both party" transgressions was pretty compelling.

[tularetom]

6. Unfortunately what it wii take to change US policy

is for China to cut up our credit cards.

[orpupilofnature57]

19. In 2yrs. China will own 87% of us, whilst the 13% ,Shrub and the " Good

Old Boy Network " will be hanging out in New New Orleans!!

[cynatnite]

7. A question:

I have never heard of biological attacks on Cuba. Could you expand on that and educate me?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Please explain about depleted uranium

I have heard this phrase before and don't know what it means.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. You really do not want to read this.... really..... but go ahead and

be very very disturbed.

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du.htm

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. I have to admit I went to the site a skeptic

thinking it could well be tin hat. But omg, it is NOT. This stuff appears to be well researched and really not all that "out there" as far as technology, capability, etc.

I do believe we have hit critical mass here in this country. Is it too late for do-overs?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

51. It's time for a "rollover". It's time to roll right over these morons

who are in charge of our lives, our money and our future...

[lcordero2]

17. DU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

pay special attention to the part that talks about health concerns

[orpupilofnature57]

20. Nice Icordero2

[lcordero2]

21. thank you

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

13. ...but it's a start.

[BayCityProgressive]

15. Here are some terrorist tactics the US has used on CUBA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm

http://www.newhumanist.com/cubaterror.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_National_Foundation


If you go on Google it is easy to find hundreds more

[WilliamPitt]

23. Um...

?

[cynatnite]

16. Was there ever biological attacks on Cuba?

I have never heard this before.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. You Are Conflating Alot Of Issues

"It is both Dems and Reps who will not sign a peace agreement with the DPRK and get our troops out of South Korea( we also propped up a right wing dictatorship there). It is the reps and the dems who supported the overthrow of Allende and the dictatorship of Pinochette.It is the dems and Reps who led us to two wars with Iraq. Both parties supported the attack on Serbia."



South Korea is a liberal democracy... It's liberation was accomplished under a UN flag.... In North Korea they eat grass which is supplemented by rations from China, the US and South Korea...

Iraq War One was justified... A nation doesn't have the right to appropriate another nation just as I don't have the right to appropriate your property...

The attack on Serbia prevented further genocide by Slobodan Milosevic against the indigenous people....

Opposing unjust wars and supporting just ones are not mutually exclusive...


Oh without Pear Harbor there is no Hiroshima...

[wuushew]

22. Why do wars have to be fought after the fact?

Since I doubt the conscripted members of the Iraqi army were in a hurry to be killed on the highway of death, did not the United States create from an impartial viewpoint an even greater humanitarian disaster?

Obviously Saddam was after the rich oil of Kuwait. If the rest of the world was as opposed to buying oil from him as it was in quickly forming a military coalition against him, an Iraqi exit from Kuwait could have been affected without firing a shot.

Is there enough nuance in international relations for fighting wars as they occur versus dealing with aftermath of successful belligerence?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Not Always...

Saddam was given an ultimatum to vacate the land he appropriated and he refused... What was wrongfully taken was rightfully taken back...


Oh, and Slobo was given an ultimatum and he refused....


The lesson....

Don't take other people's land or kill them because they are of a different religion and you won't get unceremoniously deposed....

I don't think those are difficult rules to govern by....

[lcordero2]

27. Sorry but Saddam was pissed because

Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq. Zapata Oil (a Bush family asset) had a hand in it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. So Because Kuwait Was Alllegedy Slant Drilling Saddam Was Justified In

Invading It....


That's why we have a World Court....

[lcordero2]

35. A World Court that is ineffective.

Do you play card games with people that you know can stack the deck against you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. So He Used Force And Force Was Used Against Him

eom

[lcordero2]

39. but that's not the whole story

He got clearance through Glaspie first. Glaspie responded, "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

He was on his hands and knees asking, "Mother may I?" She said, "yes you may." Then after he did he got backstabbed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Am Familiar With The Whole History

how we played both sides in the Iraq-Iran war and the hope that both of our enemies would bleed themselves dry...


But I'm just a big fan of sovereignty and autonomy...

I'd feel the same way if two poor countries like Guatemala and Belize went to war....

[lcordero2]

24. about Gulf War One...

Could you please read this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. April Glaspie....

April Glaspie didn't have the authority to surrender Kuwait's sovereignty no matter who she was speaking for....

[lcordero2]

33. Sorry but I do not buy into the theory that Glaspie was acting

alone and especially something so sensitive where a diplomat is needed. Most of everything is done with guidance from above.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Again

George Bush didn't have the authority to surrender another nation's (Kuwait) sovereignty...

[5thGenDemocrat]

41. Make nice with North Korea? I'm with DSB

Kim Jong-Il is one of the nastiest pieces of work on this planet, bar none. His father wasn't any better. And the food aid South Korea, China and the United States are sending to that dink is, IMHO, just feeding his army and, thus, propping up his regime.
If the food we're sending went to feed hungry civilians, that would be one thing. As it is, we're probably cutting our own throats by sending any "humanitarian" aid to that little crosseyed Stalinist.
While the North Korean people are indeed starving, it isn't due to any lack of concern or compassion on our part. I have no problem laying the blame for that right on Kim where it belongs and I have no interest in signing any phony "peace" treaty with that murdering little POS.
Finally, Bay City Progressive, what's with the "propped up a right-wing dictatorship" (in South Korea) comment? You don't seem to have any problem with dictators when they're Stalinists. How come?
John
With all that said, I will add that Castro and Cuba are another matter entirely. Relations with the Cuban government should've been normalized years ago and I'd welcome a change in our government's stance in that matter.

[Lexingtonian]

25. half truths and selective truths

The facts you cite are individually true, but they are selective and lead to bad conclusions. In that sense you haven't distinguished your radical Left views from radical Right ones.

Yes, in five years or less we will still be helping other peoples overthrow obsolete totalitarian governments. Be they Right or be they Left. No, I am not going to apologize or change for that.

I am not going to regret when Castro's regime ends, or the Kim dynasty in North Korea falls, or even Chavez if he really fucks up Venezuelan society by trying to push it backwards into the Agrarian Age. They're all relics of feudal and colonial times- necessary phases out of these, but just transtition

The Cold War was the Cold War. It's Over- let it go. Let it pass. So was World War II. They were remnants of the Middle Ages. It's stupidity to pretend that their terms and ideas will last, if indeed they have.

The world is changing and the relevant question is whether you're with the Modern Age or against it. Leftists like yourself are fools rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic of anti-Modernity.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Mostly Agree...

but I wouldn't throw Cuba and Venuezala in the same brew with North Korea...


North Korea is sui generis.....

[BayCityProgressive]

36. So Cuba was wrong

To take the land on their own island that the US stole? It is right to attack chavez because he wants the oil wealth of the country to help his people not US monopolies? It is right to support Isreal's occupation of foreign land? Please it is you who need to get a grip not me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Know That Wasn't Directed To Me

Cuba and Venezuela are free to create their own future as are the other one hundred and ninety one nation states as is Israel in secure and recognized borders...

[jokerman93]

43. Well Done

"The world is changing and the relevant question is whether you're with the Modern Age or against it. Leftists like yourself are fools rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic of anti-Modernity."

Nothing like broad sweeping generalizations to counter selective facts and half-truths that lead to bad conclusions.

:toast:

Exactly what crystal ball allows you to know the depth, breadth and direction of history the way you do? How can you possibly, with a straight face, simply dismiss progressive social philosophy as an anachronistic folly? I'm here at DU to participate and learn but, ironically, in my life I've rarely learned much from people who "know everything"...

I had to jump in. Not that I entirely disagree with you on some points, but you just sound like an ideologue who's working from some kind of fixed historical template. You talk like you've got it all figured out. I'd be interested to know what's behind your point of view.

You're so sure of yourself, it's almost quaint.

[Darranar]

47. Then I am against the Modern Age, and proudly so.

I am against the Modern Age if it means that the United States can intervene wherever it wants, whatever its reasons, in support of viciously brutal economic and political systems that support its imperial interests.

I am against the Modern Age if it means the maintenance and extension of the completely evil and unjustifiable global economic system, and the condemnation of everyone opposed to such a system as "totalitarian" and "radical."

I am against the Modern Age if it means that the reckless pursuit of private profit, whatever the consequences of the world, is justified because it is "modern," and all those opposed to it are "anti-modern."

If socialism is anti-Modernity, then I am anti-Modernist, and proud of it. If anti-imperialism is anti-Modernity, then I am anti-Modernist, and proud of it. If health care and education for those who cannot afford it are anti-Modernity, than I am anti-Modernist. For if that is the case, then Modernity means oppression, Modernity means exploitation, Modernity means injustice and death.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Dissent or criticism is not necessarily an attack

And while the issue is likely complex as you say, perhaps now is not the time for a whole lotta education. The thing that's driving people's emotions right now is Iraq. Hence, if activists want folks at their protests and such, they may need to realize that fact and operate accordingly.

[mike_c]

30. I agree 100 percent-- AND I support International ANSWER....

I don't agree with them on every issue, but I TOTALLY agree with them in regard to the point you're making-- the war against Iraq is part of a decades long pattern of contempt for social justice and foreign policy dictated in the interests of corporate profit. It should be addressed that way by the antiwar movement.

[Imajika]

42. I oppose ANSWER's agenda...

ANSWER is a marxist front group, and I oppose them and virtually every single speaker from every fringe group they put forward.

I do not support North Korea and have to seriously wonder what Brian Becker, a lead organizer for ANSWER, was doing denouncing the US from Pyongyang. Maybe his membership in the Worker World Party, a good friend to Kim Jong Il, explains these actions.

Any organization that is in bed with Stalinist North Korea is completely unworthy of any support whatsoever in my view.

The more average Americans find out about ANSWER, the more they will detest the organization. The more average Americans associate the anti-Iraq war movement with ANSWER, the less support the anti-Iraq war movement will have.

International ANSWER is poison, and personally, I sometimes wonder how it is this group has managed to hijack these anti-Iraq war marches. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I am sure that Rove is absolutely thrilled with the collection of speakers ANSWER lined up for the entire world to see on CSPAN.

[mike_c]

44. ANSWER doesn't "hijack" antiwar marches-- they ORGANIZE them....

International ANSWER is doing the hard work of getting the big marches organized and on the street. I'd LOVE to see more mainstream American political activist groups, e.g. MoveOn, doing the same. Even UFPJ's involvement in the Washington march was essentially grafted on after ANSWER did the initial organization. But until organizations you support organize demonstrations against the war, it's hard to understand how your REFUSING to demonstrate achieves anything except the primary objectives of the neocons: a passive, disinterested, and beaten-down population of couch-surfing patriots cheering the latest "shock and awe" exhibition on cable news.

[Imajika]

45. Yes, I know ANSWER has the organization...

..skills and has somehow figured out a way to monopolize these events. They are an umbrella group for a whole gaggle of fringe, marxist organizations who have tremendous networking and organizational skills. They have pooled the resources of their entire collection of radical groups which has enabled them to dominate these anti-war events.

I know the score, I just don't like it. And I don't like ANSWER, and I won't lend them any legitimacy or support. Any organization that is in bed with North Korea is bad news - period.

As I've said before, Kim Jong Il also denounces the war in Iraq and George Bush - but that doesn't mean I'd go to a rally sponsored by that little Stalinist dictator. The enemy of my enemy is not always your friend.

[mike_c]

46. I asked this question in another thread-- would you refuse to attend...

...an antiwar march sponsored by the Republican Party? It's not just a rhetorical question, because if the answer is "yes", that suggests you prefer to march with a fascist organization whose core politics you disgree with rather than with a marxist organization whose core politics are mostly pretty close to the progressive left. There is a certain irony there. If the answer is "no," then your voice is effectively silenced by self-censorship based on politics peripheral to the main issue-- your opposition to the war in Iraq. That's just sad.

on edit-- yes, the yes-no logic of this post is messed up. I realized that in retrospect. I'm tired and hungry-- that's my story, and I'm sticking with it!

[Imajika]

48. No, I would march at an antiwar protest...

..sponsored by the Republican Party. Absolutely I would.

Bush and the GOP are bad, but they are a far, far, far cry from being anywhere even close to as bad as the Stalinist North Korean government. The two are simply not even in the same league.

"fascist organization whose core politics you disgree with rather than with a marxist organization whose core politics are mostly pretty close to the progressive left."

First, North Korean juche/marxist theory is not politics that would be typically associated with the progressive left. Second, I believe in a regulated market economy. I am a Democrat, and on some issues even a conservative one. I do not believe Bush is the devil incarnate as some seem to believe - I just think he and his party are wrong on most every issue to include the occupation of Iraq. I am not a communist, and I personally think marxist economic theory is unworkable utopian nonsense. However, I wouldn't have a problem at all associating with marxists so long as they didn't support totalitarian, brutal, rotten regimes such as North Korea. ANSWER supports North Korea and approves of Kim Jong Il. Discovering that tells me all I need know about what ANSWER represents.

[mike_c]

49. oops, OT but I just re-read my post...

...and its yes-no logic is seriously messed up. My apologies. I won't change it-- that might confuse things further-- but it's been a long day and methinks it's time to stop and eat dinner.