Question for the ANSWER apologists.

[eggman67]

Specifically the ones whoy say they don't agree with ANSWERS positions but have no problem attending ANSWER rallies.

It's my understanding that National Vanguard is against the Iraq war as well, for somewhat different reasons.

If they sponsored an anti-war rally and controlled the speakers would you march with them?

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." style thinking can bite you right in the ass.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tuvor]

2. How 'bout a real answer?

Really.

[not systems]

9. Comparing...

ANSWER to the National Vanguard which I presume is a nationalist
Nazi front group is over the top bullshit.

I am not the best one to answer this as I agree with many
of ANSWER's positions and have no problem attending their
rallies.

In fact I think they do a skippy job of organizing them
here in SF.

What I saw at the ANSWER rally this weekend about 20000
people from various groups attending a very well organized
rally with a great sound system and very little problems.

I saw about 5 Protest Warrior counter demonstrators and
about 25 right wing Zionist counter demonstrators who always
show up to represent Frontpage and company.

Micheal Franti was playing and it was quite nice.

[tuvor]

15. Thank you.

I'd never heard of the National Vanguard. If your presumption is correct, I understand where you're coming from.

[eggman67]

19. Perfectly valid comparison

ANSWER to the National Vanguard which I presume is a nationalist
Nazi front group is over the top bullshit.

No, it's not.

National Vanguard = Totalitarian, Dictator-Loving, Anti-Semetic Pricks

ANSWER = Totalitarian, Dictator-Loving, Anti-Semetic Pricks

I am not the best one to answer this as I agree with many
of ANSWER's positions and have no problem attending their
rallies.

That would be true, as I asked specifically for those who didn't agree with ANSWER.

What I saw at the ANSWER rally this weekend about 20000
people from various groups attending a very well organized
rally with a great sound system and very little problems.

I saw about 5 Protest Warrior counter demonstrators and
about 25 right wing Zionist counter demonstrators who always
show up to represent Frontpage and company.

What the viewing public saw was a bunch of Totalitarian, Dictator-Loving, Anti-Semetic Pricks.

[not systems]

21. Refer to my...

original message for response.

[eggman67]

22. Now that's what I call discourse n/t

[not systems]

26. And claiming that a group ...

that has a huge number of Jewish members is Antisemitic
and is equal to some Nazi front group is real clear discourse
eggman.

I really liked seeing all the Palestinian flags at the rally
and it is great that ANSWER keeps the issue of Israels illegal
occupation and colonization of the West Bank front and center
because it plays a huge role in the unstable relations in the
middle east that lead to ongoing war and terrorism.

[eggman67]

33. And this of course

is why they'd keep a liberal anti-war Rabbi from speaking. Just being anti-Iraq war isn't good enough to be on their stage.

As far as having Jewish members, it wouldn't be the first time people have gone against their own self-interest. Ever heard of the Log Cabin Republicans?

[not systems]

37. There are two sides to...

the Rabbi Lerner story.

The short story is the stage was reserved for speakers
who were members of the ANSWER coalition that had organized
the rally. He was not a member of the coalition so he didn't
get stage time. He cried foul and so this story goes on
year after year.

That is pretty straight forward.

If you care, there was alot of Tikkun people with big signs
at the rally and march this weekend and you know what they
were marching with ANSWER not with the right wing Zionist
counter demonstration.

FYI: Tikkun was with UFPJ and here is their statement

http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/news_item.2005-09-17.3382777828

[eggman67]

42. Look

We're not going to agree on this, and I really don't want to argue with you over the merits of a group you have every right to support.

The original point of my post was that I've heard people say they'd march with anybody who is anti-Iraq-war and if I and others would not then we weren't really anti-war. I wanted to see just how true that was. It seems they have a line they won't cross and that's fine with me.

What I want to know is why is their line OK, but our line isn't.

I have a right to feel however I want to about ANSWER just like you do. And if I choose not to associate with them that has no bearing on my views regarding the Iraq war.

If someone doesn't want to march with NV because they see them, as I do as repugnant assholes. That's their right.

I simply claim the same right.

[not systems]

45. No problem...

I would never march with the National Vangaurd...
and I don't think your comparison is valid.

I doubt I will convince you, so stay home next time
ANSWER hold a rally or setup your own with everyone
vetted for sympathies for Palestinian independence,
ending to embargo of Cuba and freeing Mumia.

Then when you have all the right thinking people separated
from the bad wrong thinking people go march against the war
in Iraq.

[question everything]

40. Thank you. Until a few days ago I was not aware of ANSWER

and was appalled by some of their stands.

I completely agree with your comment and... welcome to DU, what a wonderful way to start (more or less).

[LincolnMcGrath]

41. Read further

http://www.internationalanswer.org/

[eggman67]

44. Thanks

Happy to be here:)

[omega minimo]

3. Black olive no anchovies

[MADem]

4. The discussion might have been more useful

BEFORE the march.

At this point, it really is just an exercise in Monday morning quarterbacking, and maybe a bit of hubris on your part ... and IMO, not worthy of a separate thread, seeing as there are ten or so discussing this very subject.

The people who went to that march knew why they were there--to protest the war. They left in the middle of the speeches, which is an indictment as to ANSWER's tactics in and of itself.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. nope.

Now about the march on Saturday, were you there? I thought not. Answer didn't control shit. Thanks for propagating the rightwing Bad Protestor Meme.

[KittyWampus]

18. "rightwing Bad Protestor Meme"? Who comes up with this babble?

there's a valid criticism of ANSWER. And yet nonsense epithets are thrown about to discredit the valid criticism.

If a doctor tells you there's a problem, do you disparage the doctor in an effort to remain in denial?

Or do you listen and adjust your behavior before the problem gets worse?

[eggman67]

25. This is where the problem lies

Many of us have said here that we cannot in good consience associate with ANSWER, and been vilified as not really being anti war then. So I want to know if they have a line they wont cross, and if so what makes their line so special.

[Warren Stupidity]

52. I don't associate with answer.

I go to antiwar protests every chance I get and answer goes too. Lots of groups show up. The vegans were there. The black block shows up. There were freaking VAMPIRES at the demo. So what? This is such bullshit. Answer wasn't even particularly visible on saturday - they were overwhelmed by UFPJ. And yet here you are acting as if they dominated the whole show and explaining how this is why you 'in good conscience' cannot participate and urging others to stay away as well. You don't even know what you are talking about. You weren't there. I have no clue if you are pro war or anti war, freeptard troll or confused progressive, what I do know is that you are pushing the bad protest meme.

[libnnc]

28. cryingshame will be organizing the next rally

just waiting on the details...

[Warren Stupidity]

51. There was a huge successful rally - actuall many rallies

hundreds of thousands of people and I get back home and DU is full of "answer sucks, the protest sucked, wrecked by the commies, boo hoo, bad protestors spoiled everything, I saw it on cspan it was bad bad bad". That is the rightwing bad protestor meme. I made up that label for your stupid babble. You are assisting the propaganda campaign to discredit a great event. Aren't you just so proud of yourself?

[OKNancy]

6. The Answer my friend is Blowing in the Wind

Oh... nevermind, I'm still thinking about the Dylan show on PBS.

[ret5hd]

10. kickass, wasn't it?

did you catch the name of that song by Odetta? (the large black woman who punctuated the line of her song with an "aaahhhh!")

[Extend a Hand]

7. I think most who marched on Saturday

were marching in support of Cindy. I doubt that most people even knew who 'organized' the speeches and got the permits. I bet that most people there didn't even hear any of the speeches from the answer rally-- and it was clear on c-span that most folks had left when the speeches got really extreme. There will always be some extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. So what. Regular people stood up and marched on Saturday. I think they sent Washington a powerful message to the politicians in Washington: Regular citizens are UNHAPPY with the Bush administration and their handling of the war in Iraq.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Technically there were two rallies and parades.

One organized by UFPJ, one organized by ANSWER. As near as I could tell, there really was only one demonstration, march etc, but there were two rallies. There was hardly anybody attending the ANSWER rally and their stupid shrill speeches about whatever. It seems, from some of the posts, that if you watched on CSPAN you saw the pathetic ANSWER rally. That is not the demonstration-reality that I experienced. The vast majority of protestors were organized around UFPJ and their speakers and their rally and their music and it was just fine.

Fuck the Bad Protestor Meme.

[KittyWampus]

29. "Bad Protestor Meme"? Again with this babble? Did YOU come up with it?

People who live in denial and refuse to face problems usually end up making matters worse.

ANSWER is part of the problem, they are not part of the solution.

And apparently, many DU'ers are totally unable to envision a Left who is capable of organizing events without power hungry, elitist Stalinists who have no interest in a representative democracy.

Sad to have such low expectations of the Left.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. Crap. Total crap.

Just wondering - did you march or did you stay home for fear of being associated with those nasty power hungry elitist stalinists who have no interest in a representative democracy?

Just curious - are you organizing the next demonstration?

I went I marched - answer was one of many groups there, and they certainly were not the largest, the most vocal, or the most visible, so what the fuck is your problem?

[jonnyblitz]

8. so are you implying some guilt by association for us attendees ?

just asking..:shrug:

[ret5hd]

11. of course he is...

just throwin' a few eggs, officer.

[eggman67]

17. No, not at all

What I'm saying is that many of us loathe ANSWER as much as we loathe National Vanguard. Yet we get criticized for not wanting to march with ANSWER. The point is that everybody has somebody they just aren't willing to ally or even associate with.

I've heard people say they'd march with anybody who is anti-Iraq-war. I wanted to see just how true that was. It seems they have a line they won't cross and that's fine with me.

What I want to know is why is their line OK, but our line isn't.

[Qibing Zero]

13. Does it bother you that you were marching next to libertarians too?

There's nothing wrong with coming together to combat the REAL problems. We can debate the other issues later, but for now we need to stop the killing and get this administration and a lot of congress out of office. =P

[mike_c]

14. ahh, white supremacists-- I had to google....

A pretty nasty bunch. But yes, if they organized a march against the war in Iraq I might participate if logistically possible. I might not listen to the speeches, and I'd certainly not agree with skinhead nazis or rabid anti-semitism, but that would not stop me from marching with them against the war in Iraq if that was the primary purpose of the demonstration. Of course, they'd probably not be very interested in my help in the first place....

[eggman67]

23. God bless ya then

I just couldn't do it. But I respect the fact that you're consistent in your views.

[tuvor]

16. Hit 'n' run, huh?

Are you interested in a discussion or not?

[KG]

20. wondered how long after i got back from DC it would be till i read this

type of lame crap on DU.

2hrs and 15 mins.


do let me know when the dem party or the DLC puts on anti-war march won't you? so i know it's safe?

oh, yeah, thats right, they're both wholeheartedly pro-war.

[jonnyblitz]

24. oh christ KG...this time around has been the WORST

you have no fucking idea....you would swear the protest was one big FLOP by reading DU all day...i have a bazillion of these threads hidden so far ...

[eggman67]

27. From a PR standpoint it was. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

30. who determines these things? nt

[KG]

32. lame-os that just don't get it.

[jonnyblitz]

34. haha

the right is gonna trash whomever is running the protests. I have seen the RW commentators make connections between United for Peace and Justice leaders and communists.

[eggman67]

36. So we might as well just

give them video evidence? Just to help 'em out?

Their gonna do what their gonna do, but there's no sense making it easy for them.

It's not just koos that listen to RW radio or watch FNC. There are fence sitters. Those are the people we're competing for.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. yes indeed lets put joe f'ing biden in charge

of vetting all demonstrations from now on. We cannot have those leftist types marching any more. Hey - I know, you could have gone to the support the troops march the week before, that was safe. No lefties in that march. When you have the next politically correct demonstration all set up let us know so we can make plans. Do post the rules so we don't bring inappropriate signs. Will there be a dress code?

[KG]

31. it took me an extra day to get home. but i knew i'd still read BS from

those who just. don't. get. it.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eggman67]

38. Ahem - Rule 2

"Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor."

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cascadiance]

43. Did eveyone attending the "Million Man" March support Louis Farrakan?

I would seriously doubt it!

But what was the common thread was that all of them felt the need to express their feelings and support for Afro-American experiences by attending such a march, and it was a positive one with that emphasis, even if most didn't follow what Farrakan would want to tell them on other occasions.

The same goes here. America is fed up with this administration, and these marches prove that many feel the need to tell those in power how they feel. A.N.S.W.E.R. and other groups through their efforts are trying to help with satisfying those needs of citizens. What have the Democrats and others done to help us voice those feelings? Mostly NOTHING!

If you had the Democratic Party stepping in and fulfilling their reponsibility to their disatisfied constituency and organizing these marches themselves, you just might relegate A.N.S.W.E.R. to a lesser needed entity, and they'd have to either attract those to their other issues on their own merits, or join more with other mainstream folks in their protest efforts.

I'm basically faced with a choice of waiting around for a party that eems to have many of it's elected officials more interested in helping corporations that buy their votes than helping us that vote them into office, as opposed to going out with groups like A.N.S.W.E.R. that are trying to address a need that we have of helping us to voice our opinions. It seems like the latter is something that is more admirable in my book.

Hoping that the Dems grow a spine at some point. I registered as a Dem earlier this year when Howard Dean took over the DNC. I'm hoping that at some point we see some results from him to force out this corporate corruption, but it seems like we still have a long way to go yet.

[eggman67]

46. Probably not

But what I'm trying to find out is where does one draw the line? Is there anyone you wouldn't march with? If not, that's fine I respect that.

If so however, and you do have a line then where is it? And why would drawing the line there be OK, and drawing the line where I draw it be not OK, as I've heard many times that it's not?

[cascadiance]

55. It's kind of like doing business with a monopoly...

Would you rather have an OS different than Microsoft's? You can in some instances by getting a Mac, etc. Or in some areas you might have to go to a WalMart to get some stuff without driving many miles to get the same stuff someplace else.

The problem is that we all wanted to protest on Saturday to send a message to our government. Our party or others that we might feel more "acceptable" didn't afford us that opportunity. If the Democratic Party just points to A.N.S.W.E.R. as a reason they don't want to participate, then they're copping out. They aren't providing an alternative for people to attend. It is the act of attending that should be judged on whether it is acceptable for them to participate, not who's helping out with it. If they were on the ball, they could be in control of who organized these marches, and then it would just be a question of whether the march itself was appropriate. A majority of people in this country are supporting what we're marching for, so I don't think that's a problem.

The bigger problem is not the hidden agenda of A.N.S.W.E.R. who's been putting together these marches, but the hidden agenda of the Democratic Party and others that prevent them from putting together these or other marches. In my mind we should be bitching more about the latter than the former.

[cat_hair]

47. National Vanguard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vanguard_(American_organization)

Cute.
:sarcasm:

[eggman67]

48. It was meant to be

I still haven't been able to get my main point addressed, though.

I got really tired of of seeing people who don't wish to associate with ANSWER described as "not really anti-war" or "red-baiters" etc.

What I want to know is who get's to draw the line regarding who it's acceptable to associate with? If it's an objective line I'd love to have someone point out where it is and why I should accept it. If it's a subjective line then we each get to make our own decision without having aspersions cast on our "movement loyalty."

[cat_hair]

53. Right. I know what you're doing.

and I'm not playing.

[Q]

54. The march/rally was a stunning success...

...and I wonder about the motivation of those who come to DU just to shit on the effort of thousands of Americans who showed up to protest an illegal war.

I don't care how many posts you have. You have no right to disparage the many good people who took the time and effort to participate in Democracy.