Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' (must read)

[cynatnite]

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html

[progressoid]

1. Would love to see this published in an American paper...

not going to hold my breath though.

Great quote from the article: “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

[cyberpj]

45. Let's forward it and ask them to. nt.

[chknltl]

2. I would love to read Gregory Paul's conclusions...

...In that sourced Journal of Religion and Society but I could not find it. A search of Gregory Paul turned up blank here as well.
I love what he says in the Times article, I just wish that I could back trace it for refrence material.

[hobbit709]

4. I found the article at

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/toc/2005.html
It's available as a .pdf document

[chknltl]

66. Got it! Thank You hobbit709 nt

[DanCa]

3. As the Boss says

You take a god filled soul and fill it with devils and dust.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Fascinating.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: "Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies."

***

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from " uniquely high" adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Well.
So much for that meme.

[Meatwad]

6. I could've told you that.

Look at history. The Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the conquerors/explorers...Need I go on?

[tblue37]

10. Look at Saudi Arabia,

where sexual slavery and child prostitution is rampant.

Super religious Saudi Arabia, where the gazillion "princes" of the royal family are famous for their orgies.

[morgan2]

11. On a side note

I'm famous for my orgies as well.

[tblue37]

39. Hmmmm.

I am guessing you must be a pastor then.

[morgan2]

7. who woulda thunk it?

people who are more likely to think rationally, are more likely to act rationally.

[NMMNG]

8. Indeed

This will never catch on in the US though :-(.

[Hissyspit]

13. Hey, Buffie! Wonderful to meet you in D.C.

Secular Humanism for me...

[NMMNG]

15. I'm one of those evil atheists

;-)

And once again, I just love your screen name.

[Hissyspit]

18. Thanks!

These people should look familiar. I have a pic of you, but I haven't loaded it to the web as of yet.



"VelmaB, Skinner and GOP Is Evil"

[NMMNG]

19. Indeed they do

Do you recognize these people?

[Hissyspit]

25. Yeah, I saw them in your earlier thread!

Thanks for posting them. I do have the evil eyes, though!

[NMMNG]

68. Yeah, darn that red-eye effect

:evilfrown:

[Hissyspit]

9. Voltaire wrote of this n/t

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

12. Great article... thanks for posting this!

[OxQQme]

14. The tale of the Puritans

and Quakers seems to be the cause of this country's 'faith'.
Idolized by the false teachings of history, when in fact, they were cast out of their home country for their fanaticism.

[eShirl]

32. then the Puritans turned around and persecuted & executed the Quakers

for their beliefs.

[FM Arouet666]

16. Great post

Darwinism is a social evil leading to atheism and amorality? What a hoot. Religion necessary for the foundations of a healthy society? The dark ages, the Taliban, Catholic inquisition and crusade, the bon fire of the vanities, yep pretty good examples of healthy societies. But are all secular societies good, communism, secular Baathist Iraq, Fascist Germany and Italy?

Perhaps it is not the presence or absence of religion which makes a society ill. Perhaps what makes a society healthy is freedom, democracy, tolerance, and respect for another person's right to hold a differing opinion. Acceptance of extremist views as the norm is what makes society ill.

[onager]

17. Meet the Fundie pollster that Fundies hate...

Mr. George Barna, a super-devout Evangelical who runs The Barna Group, a research firm in Ventura, CA.

Barna regularly drives the Fundies ballistic, but AFAIK nobody questions his methodology, which is always given with his stats. I'm as atheistic as Barna is religious, and I trust his numbers over some of the bigger polling outfits with apparent hidden agendas.

Here are a couple of his reports as a sample:

Born Again Christians Just As Likely to Divorce As Are Non-Christians
September 8, 2004

...Catholics were substantially less likely than Protestants to get divorced (25% versus 39%, respectively).

Among the largest Protestant groups, those most likely to get divorced were Pentecostals (44%) while Presbyterians had the fewest divorces (28%).

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=170

And think about this one, next time you hear some Dem wailing that we have to out-Fundie the Repubs to get the religious vote:

Bush Decisively Won Born Again Vote, But Gore Gained Most of the Born Again Voters Who Decided Late
November 13, 2000

(Ventura, CA) Texas Governor George W. Bush won the born again Christian vote nationwide by a comfortable 57% to 42% margin. The born again vote was one of the most supportive constituencies drawn to the Republican candidate in last week's election.

However, an analysis of the born again vote by the Barna Research Group shows that Vice President Al Gore had growing momentum among the born again segment, winning more than 80% of the born again votes that were decided between Labor Day and Election Day.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=75

[BiggJawn]

38. The Pentecostals? No joke!

My first wife was a Pentecostal. When she was introducing me to her "church friends", it was "And this is sister So-and-So, who used to be married to Bro. Whatzit, but NOW she's married to Bro. So-and-So..."

"I thought Divorce was bad?"

"Oh, it is, but sometimes you don't make the right choice, so you pray on it, and if gawd says it's OK, then you can get 'Spiritually divorced' and you're free to marry the one gawd wants you to..."

Gawd told her a friend of mine who was a fireman had better hose than me (smaller, anyway)

[Ediacara]

20. BE WARNED

Greg Paul has written what appears to be a good paper. He's unfortunately, the least tactful person on Earth. If anyone should NOT open up this dialogue, it's Greg Paul.

Greg Paul is a highly accomplished paleo-artist, and an ameteur paleontologist that actually writes real works in paleontology. He's a smart guy, but a social nightmare, and it's highly unfortunate that this study comes from him.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Well, it's not like

we think anybody in this country will pay attention to it.

We're too busy forcing schools to teach abstinence instead of sex education and forcing science teachers to teach ID alongside evolution.

[Ediacara]

22. probably not

But on the off chance that he were to be on a news program like O'Reilly, he'd be awful, say the most offensive thing and be slaughtered. Heck, even Rita Cosby would kill him (that is, if she were to take 10 minutes out iof the Natalie Show).

[beam me up scottie]

23. Do you think this

will register on their radar?
I killed my tv so when it comes to MSM savvy, I'm clueless.

[Ediacara]

24. probably not

thankfully...

[I_Make_Mistakes]

27. First off God is on everyones side, that is the problem we are

all his children. When one group declares God is on our side, they claim to own God, which is not possible.

Secondly, I think the Repub., RW, Conservatives are the embodiment of Darwinism, survival of the fittest, they act as the apes in nature. They will kill, torture, maim, lie, cheat, steal etc., because they are less evolved, right?

[wickerwoman]

30. That's a very narrow view of Darwinism.

"Survival of the fittest" doesn't necessarily mean survival of the strongest or most amoral. And apes don't really kill for fun, torture, maim, lie, cheat or steal. They are some of the gentlest animals out there.

"Survival of the fittest" means that the animals best adapted to a specific set of circumstances are most likely to thrive and procreate. Most animals don't become "fittest" through brute strength. Many more do it through speed, cooperation, endurance, camoflauge, etc.

You're falling into the old "atheists are amoral" trap when in fact you can embrace evolution and see that "survival of the fittest" is about cooperation and getting along together much more than it is about domination and getting ahead.

[trotsky]

33. Great post.

Well done.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

67. I think you read my post wrong. I am saying that animals do what

they do because they have a high level of intelligence, just not as high as ours. Did you watch the show of the champagne (sp?.) attack on it's owner in Ca, after it had been confiscated and taken away for inappropriate human behavior. They said that chimp in the wild will attack and torture, rip gonads off etc., another in a gang effort.

When my parrot bites (they open nuts with those beaks and it hurts), I get they are doing what in my opinion is their (God's given) NATURE. I accept it and try to modify it, but she is doing what comes natural to her, so I get over it, same with my now deceased dog and cat. I actually have more respect for my animals, then I do for most human beings, because I know where they are coming from.

[Ediacara]

47. Are you replying to me?

Look. To make things clear, I don't have a problem with religion per se, and I know quite a few very relogious, perfectly sane people (many of them are in my family). What I do have a problem with is when religion takes over and negates logic functions in perfectly sane people, and when religions prosletize.

I think the aspects of religion that Mr. Paul is going up against are the ones I have a problem with, but not necisarily religion as a whole. Mr. Paul unfortunately refuses to see the difference between religion as a whole and the abandonment of rationality. We all must admit that many times when a person adopts religion they abandon rationality, but this isn't universal.

And your discussion of natural selection is way off target, and might (no offense) be better in a text on eugenics.

[OneBlueSky]

26. "With God On Our Side" . . . by Bob Dylan . . .

if you didn't see the Martin Scorcese film on Dylan last night on PBS, be sure to tune in for Part Two tonight . . . absolutely magnificent! . . .

With God On Our Side
by Bob Dylan

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Copyright © 1963; renewed 1991 Special Rider Music

[anitar1]

31. I saw it and loved it. Looking forward to tonight. n/t

[BeTheChange]

70. Kinda funny how Bob's a born again Christian..

yet people constantly pull these lyrics out in threads like these :)

[malaise]

28. Great article

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Welcome to Jamrock! He could also have been writing about Jamaica, which holds the Guiness Book of records for having the most churches per capita on the planet.

[fujiyama]

29. The reason for this is quite simple

Excessive religosity makes society irrational. This is the reason rates of STDs and abortion are higher here.

Someone once mentioned how in Europe, education regarding the use of contraception is MUCH more graphic and direct, but accomplishes the job. Here (as well in other sexually repressed countries), discussion is muted so these problems exist in greater numbers. This is one of the reasons AIDS has been so prevelant in various African nations. It's a taboo to speak of it.

Unfortunately, things seem to be getting worse. With the seemingly increasing power of the religious right, we see them trying to shove more crap in to the school system's curriculum like ID and abstinence only "education".

Ultimately though, I don't think it's a matter of religion versus non religion that is responsible for this problem. There have been examples of forced secular nations which have performed poorly. Various totalitarian nations have also had poor social indicators (atleast in terms of societal violence). I would say it's more a matter of a lack of freedom, poor education and a lack of respect for rational thinking that causes the problem. But as we can see religious fundamentalism and irrational thinking go hand in hand.

[Jim__]

37. Excellent article!

I can see the increased non-safe sexual activity among teens because, unforunately, a large proportion of our religious population is anti sex education.

I'm not sure the homicide rate is directly related to the religious population. I've seen that attributed to a large number of factors, including in Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine", the fear in the US.

[lildreamer316]

41. You could make the argument

that in the countries with the forced secularisim the ruling party or person/dictator enforced his own set of rules for living that could be interpreted as a "religion" all in and of itself. Instead of a supreme deity HE was the diety; the one to believe in, look up to and obey.Yes? Same effect as a religion would have (in this instance) in the long run.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. Faith based disaster planning and faith based missile defence don't work.

[Eurobabe]

35. Anytime your Dogma runs over your Karma, it's a bad thing

That's why I studied philosophy in college, and not just Western, but Asian and Islamic. Perspective gained was invaluable.

[norml]

36. I'll have to print up a copy of this to read on my show.

Church/State was last week's topic.

Recommended!

[OxQQme]

40. "When The President Talks To God"

A Bright Eyes ditty:

When the president talks to God
Are the conversations brief or long?
Does he ask to rape our women’s' rights
And send poor farm kids off to die?
Does God suggest an oil hike
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
Are the consonants all hard or soft?
Is he resolute all down the line?
Is every issue black or white?
Does what God say ever change his mind
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
Does he fake that drawl or merely nod?
Agree which convicts should be killed?
Where prisons should be built and filled?
Which voter fraud must be concealed
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
I wonder which one plays the better cop
We should find some jobs. the ghetto's broke
No, they're lazy, George, I say we don't
Just give 'em more liquor stores and dirty coke
That's what God recommends

When the president talks to God
Do they drink near beer and go play golf
While they pick which countries to invade
Which Muslim souls still can be saved?
I guess god just calls a spade a spade
When the president talks to God

When the president talks to God
Does he ever think that maybe he's not?
That that voice is just inside his head
When he kneels next to the presidential bed
Does he ever smell his own bullshit
When the president talks to God?

I doubt it

I doubt it

[bloom]

42. Insisting that "God" takes sides

is anti-"God" to begin with.

It's divisive.

It doesn't surprise me that the "my God is better than your God" (or your absence of God) attitude creates an unhealthy society.



"This whole planet is just us"

"Therefore, destruction of another area essentially is destruction of yourself."

- Dalai Lama

[1932]

43. This study needs better controls.

I am sure there are many other things besides religion that explain the difference between British and American social problems.

I think if the UK didn't have a state religion, there'd be higher church attendance and they still wouldn't have the social problems the US has.

Furthermore, I can't believe all social ills in the US are confined to communties with high religiosity, while all social benefits are confined to atheist and agnostic communities in the UK.

[leftofthedial]

44. religion is a mental illness, according to some

maybe it's more of a social illness

I am convinced that on balance it is part of the problem, not part of the solution here in post-Reagan Murka.

[TWiley]

48. It is a CONTAGIOUS mental illness.

I have seen many lives destroyed by the fear and superstition that religion embeds in the soul.

Even their cover story is insane.

"God decided to torture and kill his only son in order to encourage himself to forgive the rest of us for being the humans that he created" "He did this because he writes all the rules and decided he needed the blood sacrifice of something completely innocent in order to sleep well at night."

Evidently, torturing and killing your only son is an act of love, or so says the religious folks. Well, please God, do not torture and kill anyone for me.

[jokerman93]

46. Welcome to a glimpse

Welcome to a glimpse of where (I at least believe) we have to get to sooner or later. I don't disguise my distaste for organized religion here on DU, but do celebrate the tolerance that allows people of different philosophies to coexist in a civil society.

When you look at it carefully, don't progressive/humanist values promote the highest in people that any religions lay claim to? It's an entirely unsubstantiated assumption really, that religion has some special capacity to bestow virtue on a society. That's a lot of hooey on th4e face of it. A secular society led by men and women of integrity and vision would embrace and enable all of the highest "spiritual" virtues without defaulting to, or enshrining, the arbitrary dogmas of various regional historic cults.

IMO religion has become redundant, self-serving, and counter to productive discourse and civility. To ensure its place at the top of the kill chain, religion coupled with money politics encourages a dangerous complacency in its disciples -- especially among the most fervent. Isn't that ironic?

O8)

Fascinating post.

[KittyWampus]

49. Shoddy Work That Doesn't Bear Repeating- It Uses Several False Premises

This study rests on the false premise that "Religiosity" is defined by belief in a creator.

And the phrase "western secular materialism" falsely combines secularism with materialism.

Seems to me unbridled materialism is at the root of much of America and the west's problems.

Religion isn't directly involved in:

Petroleum Wars
Pharmaceutical pushing untested and toxic meds onto the public
Lack of Health Insurance
Industrial Pollution

Religion WAS involved in:

MLK's fight for social justice
Ghandi's fight for social justice

[charlie]

50. "Western secular materialism"

doesn't appear in the article at all, so that charge is unfounded.

[KittyWampus]

55. yes, it does. but it's so poorly written I don't blame you for missing it

[charlie]

56. You don't blame me?

Thank you my liege. But, it's not there.

[KittyWampus]

58. it's in paragraph 7 in reference to Pope and it totally misses the chance

of pointing that secularism and materialism are two diffent things. It also misses the point that MATERIALISM has done far more damage than religion.

Religion is often perverted and used as the rationale for those more concerned with Materialistic goals.

[charlie]

60. Paragraph 7

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Pope's not in the article, either.

Thanks, but I've heard the No True Scotsman excuse for religion enough times to last me a lifetime. In any case, the impetus for the study is the long-standing claim by believers that religion is the only bulwark against a predatory lawless society. I think it casts doubt on that claim quite nicely.

[pschoeb]

63. He's talking about Gregory Paul's actual study not the Times article on it

Though it is Paragraph 6 not Paragraph 7. It's clear that Paul means materialism in the philosophical sense, not the sense of greediness that Cryingshame seems to think, as I posted farther down.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

A First Look

Gregory S. Paul
Baltimore, Maryland


...

Agreement with the hypothesis that popular religiosity is societally advantageous is not limited to those opposed to evolutionary science, or to conservatives. The basic thesis can be held by anyone who believes in a benign creator regardless of the proposed mode of creation, or the believer’s social-political worldview. In broad terms the hypothesis that popular religiosity is socially beneficial holds that high rates of belief in a creator, as well as worship, prayer and other aspects of religious practice, correlate with lowering rates of lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity, and abortion, as well as improved physical health. Such faith-based, virtuous “cultures of life” are supposedly attainable if people believe that God created them for a special purpose, and follow the strict moral dictates imposed by religion. At one end of the spectrum are those who consider creator belief helpful but not necessarily critical to individuals and societies. At the other end the most ardent advocates consider persons and people inherently unruly and ungovernable unless they are strictly obedient to the creator (as per Barna; Colson and Pearcey; Johnson; Pearcey; Schroeder). Barro labels societal advantages that are associated with religiosity “spiritual capital,” an extension of Putman’s concept of “social capital.” The corresponding view that western secular materialism leads to “cultures of death” is the official opinion of the Papacy, which claims, “the proabortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church’s teaching on contraception is rejected” (John Paul II). In the United States popular support for the cultural and moral superiority of theism is so extensive that popular disbelief in God ranks as another major societal fear factor.

[KittyWampus]

64. My Post Referred Directly To The Study. I Took The Time To Read It

rather than simply react to a newspaper article.

Further, about the 'Scotsman' nonsense... the NeoCons consider themselves as representative of democratic American values. In reality they are fascists. Should we paint all those working towards Democracy worldwide as fascists just because of the twisted rhetoric of the NeoCons?


"Agreement with the hypothesis that popular religiosity is societally advantageous is not limited to those opposed to evolutionary science, or to conservatives. The basic thesis can be held by anyone who believes in a benign creator regardless of the proposed mode of creation, or the believer’s social-political worldview. In broad terms the hypothesis that popular religiosity is socially beneficial holds that high rates of belief in a creator, as well as worship, prayer and other aspects of religious practice, correlate with lowering rates of lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity, and abortion, as well as improved physical health. Such faith-based, virtuous “cultures of life” are supposedly attainable if people believe that God created them for a special purpose, and follow the strict moral dictates imposed by religion. At one end of the spectrum are those who consider creator belief helpful but not necessarily critical to individuals and societies. At the other end the most ardent advocates consider persons and people inherently unruly and ungovernable unless they are strictly obedient to the creator (as per Barna; Colson and Pearcey; Johnson; Pearcey; Schroeder). Barro labels societal advantages that are associated with religiosity “spiritual capital,” an extension of Putman’s concept of “social capital.” The corresponding view that western secular materialism leads to “cultures of death” is the official opinion of the Papacy, which claims, “the proabortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church’s teaching on contraception is rejected” (John Paul II). In the United States popular support for the cultural and moral superiority of theism is so extensive that popular disbelief in God ranks as another major societal fear factor.

[charlie]

65. No, most posts didn't

and I'm happy you didn't rah-ther react to a mere newspaper article, bully for you. A link or mention to what you were talking about would've really helped.

The "Scotsman nonsense" is very much pertinent because it's used as a prime defense. Very. Often. In your case, they can't be spiritual (or however you characterize your thing), so they must be... materialists! Codswallop. These clowns may be soaking in a sea of greed, lust, and mammon, but they aren't materialists by a long shot. They're utterly steeped in the otherworldly and irrational (or extra-rational, if you prefer).

I've never felt that religion was a mark of insanity, nor do I think that it's detrimental to the health of a society. But like with anything else (including materialism if you like), adherents can certainly ride it into insanity and do harm to their neighbors.

[lateo]

51. Religion isn't involved in petroleum wars?

Apparently you aren't watching the 700 Club. They openly support Bush's agenda. And Bush's agenda is war for oil.

[KittyWampus]

54. they are simply misusing religious rhetoric. Their words & actions are

antithetical to the true teachings of Christ.

And using religious rhetoric as a fig leaf doesn't get to the organ hiding underneath the fig leaf.

Apparently you haven't noticed the NeoCons are simply using the Fundies.

If you think the NeoCons give a crap about religion except as a means of manipulating a small percent of America, you are mistaken.

[toddaa]

57. I've been to Scotland

There are no true Scotsman in Scotland anymore.

[lateo]

59. That is maybe but...

they are representatives of their religion. And they command significant importance to their followers who also believe in their religion.

[onager]

52. Religion was directly involved in Gandhi's assassination...

But in their frantic defense of The Most Useless Business On Earth, religionists usually forget that uncomfortable little detail:

Fifty-two years ago, on Jan. 30, 1948, Mohandas Gandhi was shot dead by Nathuram Godse, a Hindu extremist. Godse believed that the Mahatma, or great soul, was responsible for the 1947 partition of India and the creation of Pakistan.

Godse and his friend Narayan Apte were hanged. His brother Gopal and two others were sentenced to life imprisonment for their part in the conspiracy.

Gopal Godse remained in jail for 18 years and now, at 80, lives with his wife in a small apartment in Pune.

He is still proud of his role in the murder.

http://ngodse.tripod.com/godse14feb2000.htm

[KittyWampus]

53. Extremists Appear In All Societies' Various Streams

and one should hardly judge or even consider extremists when considering
any group's message.

[pschoeb]

62. I don't think you understand what he means by materialism

Unfortunatly the word has two definitions, but the context easily tells us that the author is using it in the philosophical sense, The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.

Not in the sense of greedyness. Which is not the main definition of the word anyway.

[JohnyCanuck]

61. Remember whose soldiers went to war with "Gott Mitt Uns" on their belts

Why Would God Bless America?
by
Farrell Till

<snip>

The irony of a nation's believing that it has been "chosen of God" is seen in the fact that other nations believe the same thing. We saw above that the Assyrians, like the Israelites, thought that they were favored by their gods, yet these nations were sometimes enemies on the battlefield. How is it possible for "God" to favor both sides engaged in mortal combat? Well, the answer is simple: it isn't possible. This can be seen in the fact that both the Americans and the Germans in World War II thought that God was on their side. German soldiers even wore belts that had Gott Mitt Uns (God with us) stamped on the buckles. This German buckle had the Gott Mitt Uns inscription stamped around images of an eagle perched on a swastika, and it clearly indicated a belief that God was fighting on the side of the Germans. I can remember hearing a speech by President Franklin Roosevelt made on D-Day 1944 in which he prayed for God to be with our soldiers who were fighting on the beaches of Normandy. Despite the prayer, 9,000 American soldiers were killed in an assault in which God was presumably with the invading army, and the Germans, who thought that God was with them, lost 20,000 during the invasion. In these statistics, we see again the irony in this misguided belief that God is on the side of certain chosen nations. Allied forces landed on Normandy, thinking that God was on their side, as they were fighting German soldiers who thought that God was with them. In Iraq today--even though hundreds of our soldiers are being killed--many in this country believe that God is on our side as our soldiers fight Muslim "insurgents" who think that Allah is on their side. What a testament to human ignorance!


When I hear the God-bless-American slogan bandied about, I can't help wondering why God would want to bless this country any more than, say, Canada or France or Australia or Japan. Although not the highest in the world, we do have a high incidence of violent crimes in this country compared to others. The murder rate here is 0.04 per 1000 people compared to just 0.01 in Canada, Iceland, Italy, Germany, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, and the much maligned country of France, and the rate is so low in Greece, Indonesia, and Japan that it doesn't even statistically register. We provide lucrative markets for drug cartels and pornography peddlers, and we have a country that now has arguably the most corrupt administration in my 72-year memory, which promotes a policy of helping the rich and turning blind eyes to the plight of the less fortunate. This policy is completely contrary to very fundamental principles of Christianity that were discussed in detail in "The Morality of the Christian Right."

Why would God want to bless a country that has so many official policies that run completely contrary to fundamental principles of the religion that his son presumably died to establish? The answer is that he doesn't. The notion that God favors one nation over others is an ethnocentric belief, born in a superstitious age, that has managed to survive beyond its time. It is an ideology that has caused more human grief and misery than I care to think about.

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/political/bless.html

For those who haven't heard of him, Farrell Till is a former Church of Christ fundamentalist minister who eventually rejected Christianity for atheism and now writes and debates on relgion and fundamentalism. Just google his name for lots of links

[ladylibertee]

69. WOW, I guess that's why we aren't supposed to incorporate religion

into our governments policy.:eyes:

[chknltl]

71. kicked and nominated

because I thought it deserved it.