Sorry, I Don't Think Cindy Is Helping Any More

[ruggerson]

I honor her son's sacrifice and her sorrow.

And she obviously has every right to keep on speaking out. She is a proud American mom. And her heart is in the right place.

But I don't think she is helping move public opinion in our direction any more.

She's become more of a distraction and a side show and some of her over the top statements do not reflect well on the movement that is trying to end this bloody mess.

You can scream and yell at me all you want, but I don't think she should be a focal point going forward.

[Stand and Fight]

1. Here we go...

:popcorn:

[mcctatas]

3. Gentlemen, start your engines...

:popcorn::beer:

[Stand and Fight]

17. Hey! Where's my frothy tasty brew?

:beer:

[mcctatas]

44. Holy shit...

I leave you people alone for 10 minutes to write a paper and all hell breaks loose! Guess I need another:beer:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

143. Mind if I hang with you guys? Anyone want a cigar?

:popcorn:

[Mr_Spock]

187. Hehe - always somebody recognizes a popcorn moment

I could use a handful - somebody really stepped in it this time :D

[yurbud]

2. I'll bite, why?

[KerryOn]

208. I'll bite.....

I agree with the original poster.

This is NOT about Cindy. This is about all of us wanting the US out of Iraq.

I was there yesterday when Cindy and 370 others were arrested. As all of you are aware the media does not report the news as they should. I got home late last night, and the only news I saw of yesterdays civil disobedience was a few 30 second clips of Cindy being dragged away by the police.

I estimate that the crowd yesterday was probably in the neighborhood of 2,000. I did not see one single news clip of yesterdays event showing the overall size of the crowd.

Not one single piece of video from the main stream media showing the police on horse back as the crowd nearly got out of control chanting things like "Arrest Bush!"... "The Whole World Is Watching!".

Although it is not Cindy's fault, she is drawing all the attention, when the attention should be on the 100's of thousands of us that were in the back ground.

The media once again failed to report the news as it really happened.
CNN said: "Cindy and a few protesters were arrested for sitting on the side walk and refusing to move."

A few others? Yea right!
The media needs to refocus!
370

[yurbud]

235. Cindy provides a focal point, and more cynically, the "new" angle on

what the media might otherwise call the "old" protest story.

that 30 second clip or the story on page A13 will have some effect.

I was pissed by the relatively minimal coverage of the DSM, yet that made a dent in public consciousness.

No one thing is going to do it alone, but we need Cindy. Otherwise, people can dismiss protestors as a bunch of aging vegitarian hippies.

[ruggerson]

321. Thanks

You not only expressed what I was trying to say, but you expanded on it and brought my point home.

Mine was about trying to think like a smart strategist. And a smart strategist would be appalled that the media now thinks it can focus on the daily Cindy Sheehan soundbite and dismiss/ignore the rest of the anti war movement.

[KerryOn]

327. Yea But Guess What?

The media has dismissed/ignored the rest of the anti war movement!
So how does that help the cause?

[tuvor]

4. Yeah, Rosa Parks should've given up her seat, too.

[Cha]

323. Exactly! Cindy's going through some

Rough Patches right now..like we all do but she's on a Mission..she's not going to stop and I for one won't stop supporting her.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. Weren't you the one

who was posting this in the GD politics thread before? :eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

29. What, didn't get the response there, so put the show on the road

and come over here with it?

Actually GD:P is moving slower than molasses right now. GD is much more fast paced and fun.

[ruggerson]

67. Umm, no.

n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

It's the exact same crap the other person was saying

Exactly the same. So you're either both working together or you're the same person.

[ruggerson]

Sorry to disabuse your paranoid personality

but neither of your statements are correct.

Maybe *gasp*, there are more than a few people who feel the way I do.

Oh, that can't be it.

I must be the only one.

[PatriotMom]

144. Could be multiple personality disorder....

:popcorn: :beer: :popcorn: :beer: :popcorn: :beer: :popcorn: :beer:

[Mr_Spock]

188. Yum, popcorn and Guiness

Love it :D

[Kagemusha]

6. Personally, I don't think the movement is going to help either.

I don't think in the end it will make one whit of difference one way or the other, but it will make participants feel better. And perhaps make momentum towards change at the ballot box.

But "stop the war"? Nah. Not with the way power has been allotted to the Execitive through the Constitution and the provision of the money to pay for it by Congress.

[movonne]

7. Who should???? I see no one else out there..

[SteppingRazor]

8. Popcorn! Get your fresh, hot buttered popcorn!

:popcorn:

[PatriotMom]

146. I would like 2 bags please with extra butter ok

and a butterfinger and a large soda, thanks:popcorn: :beer:

[Mr_Spock]

189. I ordered 10 bags!!

This is gonna be a real barn burner!!!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[FrenchieCat]

9. So what do we do now?

(I don't agree on that "what have you done for me lately" type of gratitude, but hey, you entitled!)

[SoCalDem]

51. Now WHO'S gonna clean up all the popcorn you are dropping?

:P

[FrenchieCat]

160. There is an "invisible" popcorn catcher right below......

working for prevailing wages...of course! :)

[lcordero2]

65. She is helping and we have just taken the initiative...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_terminology

Initiative: The advantage that a player who is making threats has over the player who must respond to them. The attacking player is said to "have the initiative".

It's time to push the initiative a little further and threaten BOYCOTT...especially with the holiday season being just around the corner.

After all of this stuff going on with Abramoff, Katrina, the protest, and the Basra incident it feels like we are winning.

[PinkPantherChick]

10. What a dumb point of view....

of COURSE she is helping. Anybody who can stand up and force the freepers to listen to us is helping. 600,000==isn't that serious help?

[cynatnite]

21. It's not a dumb point of view...

the OP has a right to his/her opinion even though you may not agree with it.

I don't agree with Cindy on some things, but I cheer her on. Whether what she does can help stop this obscene war...I don't know. It may not.

[Erika]

11. She's getting the issue out so people will have to think

She has every right to protest in the way she wishes, she is the one who lost a son to W's insane war. Why do you wish to say when she's useful or not useful? I don't think that is what is about with her.

[tuvor]

12. What're you doing to pick up the slack?

Just asking.

[theHandpuppet]

167. Bingo!!!

Cindy, sit down and shut up so we can all have a neat and tidy protest that won't offend anyone or accomplish anything!

:sarcasm:

[knowbody0]

13. i disagree

all she wants is answers to her questions. i will support her forever in that endeavor. im honored that she joins us in our effort to end this illegal war and hold this administration accountable. she does not consider herself a focal point, why should you?

[DaveJ]

I don't understand -- why does there have to be focal points?

I mean, the Repugs are wrong on so many issues that it is impossible to maintain any limited set of focal points. Why should any be abandoned? The real issue is how to represent them all in a concise manner and convey their incredibly numerous problems.

[Mr_Spock]

197. This is my problem too. Is she a focal point? Is that bad? Why?

She is a citizen and we cannot stop her from wanting answers from her corrupt government. Why criticize her for this?

You'd thing the O/P has a real issue that we have spent ANY time supporting Cindy. She was virtually invisible for a month and now we had an amazingly successful war protest - she was one speaker there. The news is focused on her - why shouldn't we support her if we think her cause is right? Sorry I'm asking you this - I just know the O/P isn't going to answer any of the tough questions and I agree with your viewpoint.

[Dharma_Bum]

14. I don't think she ...

should be a focal point going forward either!

But she should be respected and never forgotten as someone who picked this movement up and ran with it.

I think that her example should make us all strive to RAISE MORE HELL THAN SHE HAS!!

[Wind Dancer]

15. Here we go again!

[ConsAreLiars]

16. Attack ANSWER, attack Sheehan -- predictable attempt to

"divide and conquer." You guys are so predictable. Say hello to agent Mike.

[Stand and Fight]

24. Yep, you've got that right.

Divide and conquer. Let's not take the bait and let them try and take us apart.

[libnnc]

18. I won't scream, I promise.

Actually I can't scream. My throat is raw from screaming in DC.

Riddle me this Batman...Doesn't Cindy personalize the anti-war movement? Doesn't her voice and presence as a real live grieving mom give her huge credibility? Doesn't her message hit home for real?

[Erika]

23. Yep.

[ruggerson]

74. Absolutely

And I give her credit for that.

But when she starts calling the insurgents who car bomb people "freedom fighters", she's providing ammunition for the neocons to demonize both you and I and millions of others.

And that's just one of many things she has said that I think steps all over her message.

[libnnc]

101. context is something that Bill O'Liely always screws with

Lemme guess, you heard that 'freedom fighter' thing from BO, right? Cindy was taken out of context. Fish around here for the thread about her statements. I'm too tired to debunk it.

[ruggerson]

Nope.

I actually think I read it here a few days ago.

[libnnc]

134. you did. it was posted by somebody who

heard BO say it.

[ruggerson]

142. So it was B.O. by way of DU eh?

Ok, but that's not the only thing I've heard that she's said that has raised my eyebrows. What about all the anti Israel stuff? I could do a search and give you a litany of things she's said that have rubbed me the wrong way, but you get my drift. And I repeat, she has EVERY RIGHT in the world to say them. Do I respect her contributions and her passion? Yep. But am I going to lionize her? Nope. JMHO. And i don't want to give the neocons any more ammunition to marginalize this movement or to have the press do it.

[OKJackson]

161. "Cindy is anti semitic!" is the smokescreen for the AIPAC & PNAC types

Make like Public Enemy and "Don't Believe The Hype."

If you ever hear of her saying something, it's most likely spin.

We don't need to pick apart her words to find imaginary hate, go read full quotes and transcripts from any interviews you can find on her posted to progressive websites. Beware of quotes without attribution to a source. I.e., a quote about something she said say here on DU, without any quote for the actual source of it.

Right now the pugs are in hard spin mode, they need a miracle and they're bringing out all their weapons.

Cindy is *NOT* anti-semitic, AIPAC & PNAC on the other hand, are anti-American.

[cynatnite]

172. Ruggerson did not say she was

How did you pull that one out?

[OKJackson]

331. I didn't say he did. Please re-read before attempting to slam me

Thank you.

[OKJackson]

332. I *DID NOT SAY HE DID*, please re-read before attacking like that

U_U

I'd greatly appreciate it.

[OKJackson]

333. Pardon the double post

DU has been acting weird on me of late.

[ruggerson]

182. There is a big difference

between being anti-Israel geopolitically and being anti Semitic.

I never said she was anti semitic, so once again you've fallen into the trap of mischaractering what someone has written. I would have no way of knowing if she is or isn't, as I do not know her personally. I would suspect, based on her public demeanor, that she is not.

I said she has made some statement which were anti Israel. And I have read the "context" in which she made them and, yes, indeed, they were anti Israel.

[Name removed]

334. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkman]

183. "litany of things that rub me wrong way" = dissrupter

edit: right you are.
Better point: Couch criticism of Cindy with gratitude that she has mobilized more anti-war and pro-troop citizens than ANY other INDIVIDUAL. Rugg's statement is crass and insensitive, like my statement was, and we don't need more of the same.
So let's give Cindy her due FIRST and offer friendly SUGGESTIONS not dissruptive (see the flaming=evidence of disruptive) assertions.
Peace?

[cynatnite]

193. That gigantic leap needs explained n/t

[crispini]

259. Please do that search and give me the litany.

I haven't seen anything yet and I'm really wondering what the beef is.

[Dunedain]

163. "Doesn't her message hit home for real?"

Only when more americans experience what she has.

[bpilgrim]

19. well, the Lieberman/Clinton image makers haven't gotten us there, either

i think y'all pay way too much attention to what fox says.

peace

[rawtribe]

20. And Gandhi

was an old guy in diapers

:hide:

[tuvor]

25. Nice avatar!

:)

[rawtribe]

36. Thanks

:hi:

[LittleClarkie]

69. Ditto. I loved the last Devo dvd I saw, where they were in Japan

getting interviewed, and patiently explained that America was a good country doing bad things under the leadership of a "retarded cowboy."

So glad to see they're still on the job, fighting for truth just like they did during the Reagan era.

[tuvor]

22. Waiting for some replies, ruggerson.

This isn't the forum version of a hit 'n' run, now, is it?

[Stand and Fight]

31. I was just thinking that...

"Drive-by posting." So to speak...

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

113. Six minutes, tuvor

So, I'm supposed to respond on TUVOR"S TIMETABLE?

SOrry, doesn't work that way.

[tuvor]

196. More than 20 minutes, actually.

Between the time of your OP and your next one.

"Tuvor's timetable"?? LOL I coudn't care less! You don't need to reply at all if you're not inclined.

Just don't post something that could obviously be taken as flamebait and then make yourself scarce for the next 40 replies unless you don't mind taking a few shots to your credibility.

[ruggerson]

322. If you couldn't care less

Why bother to post an inane remark holding me responsible to respond to posts on your clock.

[benburch]

26. It really doesn't matter what you think or if she is "helping"!

Her struggle is about her son and what she has to say about his death.

And you have a lot of gall to try to dictate those things to her.

For shame!

[cynatnite]

32. The OP is entitled to his/her opinion and can voice it

We don't have to agree with it. I don't see how the OP was dictating anything.

[benburch]

35. He has that right. And having voiced it, ought to be ashamed. nt

[cynatnite]

38. Because his opinion doesn't flow with the rest?

He didn't denigrate her or her son. He didn't minimize their sacrifice.

He doesn't believe what she is doing is helping. That's all. I don't get the problem here.

[benburch]

40. Because he obviously wants to silence her.

Which is a form of dictating her message.

[cynatnite]

42. How is he doing that?

By voicing a different opinion? That's a huge leap.

[LittleClarkie]

64. Magic flows through his keyboard to silence those he disagrees with

I have been accused of having the same power. Bow down and worship us and our amazing ability to silence people though our dissent...huzzah.

[cynatnite]

71. Damn, I need one of those keyboards...

:smoke:

[ruggerson]

Please show me where I said she should be silenced.

Quote it to me.

[LittleClarkie]

104. I'm spoofing the idea that you could even do it if you wanted to

which I don't think you do.

I'm with you, actually, if not completely with your sentiment, then at least with your right to criticize the woman without being called anti-Cindy and such.

When I've rebutted what I considered unfair posts directed at Kerry, I've been accused at times of trying to silence criticism. The notion is patently absurd.

Hence the spoofage.

I think the word used on me was abrogate. A heck of a word, innit.

[ruggerson]

119. Sorry, didn't catch the satire

my bad. :)

What bugs me about some of these posts is how much they remind of Joe McCarthy. Some folks here jump viciously and personally on anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with their personal "party" line, instead of trying to figure out what the thought processes are behind an OP.

[LittleClarkie]

135. Exactly

Too much "how DARE you!" She's not Gandhi. Neither is she the Pope. Not a saint. Not infallable. Just a woman who lost her son. As such, every little thing that comes out of her mouth will be golden. And I think she'd actually balk at her words being clung to as some sort of Gospel. Folks have the right to disagree. That doesn't mean we don't support her right to speak.

I spent alot of time during the Camp Casey days getting mad at people who said that Cindy should tweek her message, or suggesting that her message could be reframed. Her message is her message, and comes from her gut. It is not open to tweeking or reframing.

But I think her peak effectiveness as a messagebringer may have passed with Camp Casey.

Even so, folks who want to will support her. Those who wanna move on will do that too. I don't know that suggesting folks do either one does much good.

[ruggerson]

86. I don't want to silence her

and don't lie about what I'm saying.

What I don't want is the whacked out stuff she says occasionally to enable the Republicans to minimize the anti war sentiment and to get the media to marginalize and dismiss her. Therefore, I think she should be a PART of an ongoing effort to end this war, but not the rallying point.

Ending this war is not about Cindy Sheehan or any cult that has grow up around her. Ending this war is about thousands of dead American kids and tens of thousands of dead Iraqis.

[benburch]

173. Your intentions were obvious - at least to me.

I wasn't lying about what you were saying - I was expressing what you communicated to me with it.

It would be pretty silly to try to lie about something everybody read when they opened this thread, no?

Clearly you wish she would stop now, and that people would stop listening to her, because you don't think she is "helping" any more. Well, she never was about "helping" and she didn't do any of this to be of service to you or anybody else. This is about Casey and his death and her reaction to it. It isn't about whatever other goals you wish it were about.

But you have the right to your opinions, and I have the right to tell you that you ought to be ashamed of them.

That is the essence of Democracy.

If you don't like dissenting views, like mine, I can direct you to some other sites where you should feel right at home.

[ruggerson]

176. No, you're repeating your mistakes

I never said "she should stop now."

What I said is quite clear. Re read the OP. I actually defended her right to keep talking.

What I did say is that she should not be the strategic media focal point of the anti war movement going forward. She should be ONE PART of it.

Again, it does not help your argument by distorting and, yes, lying about what I've posted. It just makes you look hysterical and irrational.

[benburch]

195. It is your reponse to me that makes you look "hysterical and irrational"

No, I still believe I read your original intention loud and clear. You try to put nice words around it, but what I read there is that you wish she would fade away now.

However, you seem to keep responding to me over and over in more and more desperate terms, which makes you look worse than my original mild criticism ever did.

I don't hate you! But I really wonder at the magnitude of your response!

BTW, "hysterical" is a word you ought to consider not using in any context as it is really a very anti-woman word. "Hysteria" was a neurotic disease that physicians imagined caused mental or emotional distress in (mostly) women. The treatment was to induce an orgasm (then called "hysterical paroxysm" ) in the woman, which doctors would do in their offices. In fact, the vibrator was invented (around 1870) for just this purpose, and was originally a medical appliance. So, just a word to the wise on that term. Use it with the right woman reading and you are likely to be ripped a new one.

[ruggerson]

202. Someone who quite clearly lies about an OP

is behaving irrationally and hysterically. Shrug. Sorry if it touched a nerve.

[benburch]

205. There is that word again...

I was quite clear - I voiced what you communicated to me in your OP.

Which I thought then and still think was shameful.

You really ought to be ashamed for trying to push onto Cindy Sheehan and her honest expression of her grief whatever other agenda you imagine she should be pushing, and then, when she fails to push that agenda, to want to marginalize and silence her.

And everything you have said since then in terms of damage control only makes me more certain that is what you meant to communicate in the first place. It is a typical tactic - Don't like the criticism, so attack the critic, call him a liar...

[Mr_Spock]

218. Seems to be the pattern here.

Make a brazen statement and then attack anyone who asks for a little more meat to chew on. This is BS.

[benburch]

222. I tend to agree.

My original rebuke was in the mildest of terms. Honestly I didn't think it would even get noticed.

[beam me up scottie]

226. Your counter thread meant to rally outrage against the op got noticed.

And it was a pretty low brow tactic.

[benburch]

227. Had I intended that I would have linked it in.

And named names.

I meant to state what I believe is the issue here;

Cindy isn't about YOUR agenda, no matter how much you want to control her message or her actions.

[beam me up scottie]

230. Keep building those strawmen.

At least it's keeping you busy.

The op, and I hope you write this down this time and give faux Spock a copy, did not attempt to control Cindy's message or her actions.

[Mr_Spock]

234. "faux Spock"

OK, you're going over board.

[benburch]

237. Very much so!

Clearly, nobody who stands up to what they mean is acceptable to these guys...

Raise an objection, and when they call you a Liar you are supposed to whimper off, tail between your legs, like an abused puppy.

Ain't happening. The OP was shameful and vile.

[beam me up scottie]

243. "Because he obviously wants to silence her."

Your words.

You falsely attributed the attempt to silence her to the op when he said no such thing.

You are being disingenuous and continue to build strawmen after they've fallen apart.

This isn't about your opinion that the op was "shameful and vile", which you are welcome to, this is about your intellectual dishonesty.

[benburch]

244. I stand by my words.

That is the exact message he was sending.

[beam me up scottie]

247. And you know that HOW ???

That is where you cross the line.

You're making strawmen so that you can knock them down and feel all good about yourself.

You even asked for clarification and he gave it to you.

That is not what he posted and not what he intended and yet you insist it was, after being told more than once you were wrong.

So now you're psychic?

[Mr_Spock]

262. .

"She's become more of a distraction and a side show and some of her over the top statements do not reflect well on the movement that is trying to end this bloody mess"

Words of encouragement if I've ever heard them. :D

[beam me up scottie]

266. "And she obviously has every right to keep on speaking out"

And I told your special friend to write this down for you.

He obviously has reading comprehension problems.

I'm sorry I did not recognize the handicap sooner.

Had I known, I wouldn't have upset him.

[Mr_Spock]

270. That was the disclaimer. The actual statement is what carries the weight

Can't you get it through your thick head that the man made a very wide-ranging broad-brush statement about Cindy and that no disclaimer in the world prevents people here at DU from disagreeing with the latter statements??

What the heck is your problem - are you trying to stifle dissent here on DU?

[beam me up scottie]

276. No, that was his op. And since you've finally resorted to personal attacks

I consider this a victory.

You lost, game over.

[Mr_Spock]

277. LOL - reversing the argument onto me - great strategy

yeah, I am the one resorting to personal attacks!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: v

[beam me up scottie]

284. Yes, a personal attack:

"Can't you get it through your thick head"

I think that qualifies.
And it's really all you have.

[Mr_Spock]

286. Not as much as "I didn't know you had a problem"

Implying that I am retarded.

and

"Reading comprehension problems run in the family I see"

and

"And I told your special friend to write this down for you.

He obviously has reading comprehension problems.

I'm sorry I did not recognize the handicap sooner.

Had I known, I wouldn't have upset him"

You seem to be a very angry person who thrives off of insulting people you are arguing with.

[sniffa]

293. those aren't insuLts

that's how "aduLts" taLk. :popcorn:

[Mr_Spock]

296. lol

OK, I'll bite. :D

:popcorn:

[Mr_Spock]

228. Scottie - defender of the downtrodden

Funny :rofl:

[benburch]

239. Downtrodden...

Because I called his opinion shameful?

Simply amazing!

[Mr_Spock]

240. LOL - yup. How dare you question the man's opinion!

It is only opinion after all!! :sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

250. Now you guys are playing with yourselves.

I guess you don't need me anymore.
:evilgrin:

[Mr_Spock]

255. We never needed you

:rofl:

[Name removed]

263. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

265. That's a way inappropriate statement. Don't disagree with Scottie

He'll get all nasty on ya!

[beam me up scottie]

268. Well, geez, it went right over your head the first time.

I had to spell it out.

Reading comprehension problems run in the family I see.

[Mr_Spock]

272. Another personal attack.

Is that how you win all of your arguments?

[sniffa]

282. obviousLy you're not an aduLt

that's how aduLts win arguments.

aduLts, aLso "aren't afraid to teLL it Like it is" and they "don't need a cLique"... and anything that remoteLy resembLes a cLique for an aduLt, is just "smart peopLe who agree with" the aduLt.

:popcorn:

[Mr_Spock]

274. "whacked out stuff she says"

Please post examples of the "whacked out stuff".

Sounds like you have a bias against her.

[ruggerson]

50. Oh, get over it.

I want this war to end and have as much right as anyone to proffer my opinions on tactics going forward.

She ain't a sacred cow, you know. She's a human being who wants this war to end like many of us do.

[Sparkman]

185. "she ain't a sacred cow"...demeaning and unsympthetic, NO CLASS rugg'

You can NITPIK and CULL through our best voices, who SERVED FAITHFULLY and EARNED the right of passage

[ruggerson]

99. I'm not dictating anything, re read the OP

n/t

[Mr_Spock]

184. WRONG!!! You are ASSUMING your OPINION is TRUE - back it up!!!!!

Damn it, you can't make assumptions like that and NOT back them up.

WHY do you think your supposition is correct. PROVE what you stated.

You were very sure of your opinion - close enough to DICTATING the argument - BACK IT UP DAMN IT!!

[beam me up scottie]

199. Um, opinions are subjective, not objective. I'm suprised, Mr Spock,

that you don't know this.

[Mr_Spock]

203. Is this your other ID ruggerson?

If you agree with the O/P then argue for their opinion.

I am not here to defend my tactics to you.

I want answers from the O/P.

[beam me up scottie]

211. So because I corrected you, I'm the op?

Tactics?

Hysteria and ad hominem attacks are tactics, all right.

Just not ones that I expect to see from someone who uses the name of a Star Trek character who champions logic and reason.

[Mr_Spock]

214. Oh, gimme a break

hysteria and ad hominem attacks - ok :eyes:

Asking the O/P why their SUBJECTIVE opinion cannot be backed up by OBJECTIVE defense of the hypotheses is hysteria and ad hominem?

But I don't think she is helping move public opinion in our direction any more.

I just want to know why he thinks this.

She's become more of a distraction and a side show and some of her over the top statements do not reflect well on the movement that is trying to end this bloody mess.

I am not familiar with these over the top statements and I may not agree that they are over the top or reflect badly on the "movement". the "movement" didn't exist before Cindy. She has been widely credited with starting a "movement".

You can scream and yell at me all you want, but I don't think she should be a focal point going forward.

Yes, but a few more good solid OBJECTIVE reasons for this might be helpful here. I am not just going to take your word on this. Don't make such broad-brush statements about a highly popular figure without supporting your statements. The few lame SUBJECTIVE opinions are meaningless to me.

ok. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

220. Get a grip, dude.

A Vulcan would be ashamed to make such a spectacle.

You:

"WRONG!!! You are ASSUMING your OPINION is TRUE - back it up!!!!!"

Me: Who are you and what have you done with Spock?

[Mr_Spock]

223. Where's the beef?

I have explained what I am looking for and you are simply attacking me on semantics/english language issues. Excuse me for not having a perfect grasp at all times - we make emotional arguments here often - it's why I like DU. I am half-human after all :D


Now go attack another 5 posters on this thread for daring to question the O/P's brazen statements. I want a little meat to chew on when I hear such a broad-brush statement.

[AngryOldDem]

204. Oh for Christ;'s sake

As Ruggerson has been telling many of you, GO BACK AND REREAD what he wrote.

And is it a new rule on DU that, unless you don't 100% agree with the prevailing opinions of the day here, you just need to shut the hell up?

[Mr_Spock]

207. I think he should defend what he has written

...and stop telling us to reread it. I disagree with his opinion and want to know what makes him think such a conclusion is true. If he has good reasons then I may support his opinion.

[Der Blaue Engel]

27. The images of her on the news today being arrested

Are worth more than a thousand words of rhetoric.

Good thing somebody's out there doing the hard work.

(Scream and yell? Sure. Whatever. :boring: )

[Mr_Spock]

191. MLK was just a damned rabble rouser!!

Jesus was just a damned rabble rouser!!


We gotta suppress these people who stand up for what they believe!!

[beam me up scottie]

201. Who said anything about suppressing people?

I believe the op reads :

"And she obviously has every right to keep on speaking out."

[Mr_Spock]

206. I did.

The net message contained in this post would be to ignore Cindy and not support her opinion. In my mind that is effectively suppressing her opinion since it would take an active effort at this point on our part to stop her momentum - at least that's the way I see it.

[beam me up scottie]

213. Really? Did you do a Vulcan Mind Meld with the op?

Because otherwise, you're building strawmen.

[Mr_Spock]

215. No, you're just poking at the questioner with a stick

Why can't the O/P defend himself? Why does he need you to attack his questioners? I want to know where these opinions are coming from. Show us some good reasons we should abandon Cindy besides the vague implications in the O/P.

[beam me up scottie]

224. Maybe he would if you would actually ask questions based on

what he posted instead of what you THINK he meant when he posted it.

I'm not defending the op, I am defending his right to voice an opinion without being bullied into submission by ditto heads.

[Mr_Spock]

225. So now questioning the O/P is bullying?

Are you calling me a ditto head? Please explain...

[beam me up scottie]

229. No, the dozens of posts telling him he has no right to have an opinion

and calling him a freeper, a troll, etc. are bullying him.

And a ditto-head would be anyone who not only is incapable of original thought themselves, but also attempts to silence anyone who is.

[Mr_Spock]

233. Well, you are misapplying your anger toward the others at me

And I'm not too happy about it.

I simply asked for MORE MEAT on the bones of his argument. Something beyond an opinion - I'd like to know WHY he came to that conclusion. Show an example of where a similar situation produced negative results for a political party. Is that too much to ask? Help me agree with your opinion - give me something more than a "feeling".

Was I one of those "dozens of posts" you refer to above?

Implying that I am somehow a ditto head is just wrong and makes me very angry at you. Am I not allowed to question a radical statement here - who exactly is the ditto head anyway? Jeeze :(

[benburch]

238. He has a right to his shameful opinion.

But I will call it that, though you clearly wish to silence me.

[beam me up scottie]

246. Wow, ANOTHER lie.

I'm calling you on your disingenuous post.

Why can't you get that?

You said something that wasn't true and you were called on it.

Get over yourself.

[benburch]

249. Nope! Absolute truth from me.

I voiced the message I received from his posting.

He communicated that message to me quite clearly.

If that was not his intended message (and his subsequent statements show that it likely was) then he really needs to examine how he communicates with people.

What he posted was a shameful attempt to map his own agenda (and yours clearly) onto Cindy Sheehan, and then attempt to marginalize and silence her because she did not conform to it.

You can weasel around all you like but the original communication stands, and your attempts to make me out as a liar are really pathetic.

How can I possibly be lying about what message I received? I never talked about the words he used, but about what message underlies those words. Now, since you cannot seem to grasp that, I'll not be replying to you on this topic again.

[beam me up scottie]

260. The "message" you received ???

:spray:
Did you receive this message telepathically or by smoke signal?
:rofl:

You have the op's words to go by, not your imaginary 6th sense.

And to paraphrase you:

'You really ought to be ashamed for trying to push onto (the op) and (his) honest expression of (his opinion) whatever other agenda you imagine (he)' is pushing.

You should be ashamed of pushing your agenda.

[benburch]

267. The words communicated what I voiced.

And if you will read this thread you will see that I am not the only one who go that message, so if I am reading smoke signals, it must have been a 3-alarm out-of-box fire.

[beam me up scottie]

269. For shame,

for shame.

[benburch]

278. You seem to have been replaced.

[beam me up scottie]

279. Shameful and vile.

Just like you said.

Pushing your agenda on the op despite his protests.

Just shameful.

[benburch]

285. Sqwak! Shameful and Vile! Shameful and Vile!

You get a cracker!

[Mr_Spock]

280. lol

This is a funny post :D

[Mr_Spock]

254. "Get over yourself."

Just cutting and pasting quotes for the fun of it :D

[WilliamPitt]

28. I'll just call bullshit and leave it at that

You have done...?

[Stand and Fight]

33. I agree.

That's the best approach.

[LittleClarkie]

You should have called it bullshit and left it at that

It doesn't matter what he's done. Could be alittle, could be alot. He has a right to express a criticism. You have a right to call if bullshit.

Just as we have the right to criticize our government without being called unAmerican, he has the right to criticize Cindy without defending what he has or hasn't done for the cause.

[RagingInMiami]

30. Maybe we should just keep doing what we've been doing

Spend our days on the Internet bitching about Bush and war. That might get us somewhere.

[Stand and Fight]

34. Yeah, the OP would love to have us think that... Wouldn't they? n/t

[Mr_Spock]

216. It's not for the O/P to pose a solution - just to knock over the current

leader of the movement.

Seems rather impractical to do such a thing without offering up one's services or proposing someting better. I mean, knowing you are going to be attacked for saying something so brazen, wouldn't one want to have a better solution to offer? :shrug:

[johnaries]

37. Apparently, 300,000 people (at least) disagree.

And that's not counting the people who wanted to be there but couldn't (like me, for example).

[walldude]

39. Another hit and run

flamebait post...

:popcorn: :popcorn:
:popcorn: :popcorn:

[ruggerson]

56. Excuse me?

Because you disagree with what I posted, you mischaracterize it as flamebait?

I think what YOU"RE trying to do is stifle debate by having threads conveniently locked, instead of actually discussing the content therein. How totally pathetic.

[PatriotMom]

147. There's nothing to discuss here.....keep moving

:donut:

[walldude]

177. Uh.. no.. look at your thread....

looks like a flame war to me... I have no power to "lock threads" and I'm not going to get into a pointless flame war. Oh and calling me "totally pathetic"... just made my point for me, nice going Einstein.

[ruggerson]

192. Mischaracterizing someone's OP

as "flamebait" when it clearly is not is indeed pathetic. As for the flames that resulted, talk to those getting agitated. I ain't one of them, they're mostly the people who agree with you.

And thanks for the Einstein appellation. It's an honor.

[walldude]

210. "You can scream and yell at me all you want"

Mischaracterizing the OP huh... :eyes:

[ruggerson]

324. Actually I was trying to pre empt that kind of flamewar

Maybe I worded it poorly, but I was acknowledging that this is a contentious subject and knew it would raise some dissent. But I was hoping it could be discussed civilly without personality attacks. I'm no more a fan of flamewars than you are.

[FlaGranny]

217. Flamebait?

Read your own post: "You can scream and yell at me all you want . . ." You obviously intended to cause disagreement because you admitted it with that statement. You are entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to call you on it, but that fragment of a sentence I copied and posted from your original post proves you knew what you were doing.

[nolabels]

75. I like Jujubes except for the fact they sometimes the stuck on the teeth

http://www.nassaucandysouth.com/Florida%20Favorites.htm

[PatriotMom]

149. Yeah they do get stuck in your teeth though, so do dots

I think that is what they are called, same as jujubes but bigger. Soft chewy and get stuck in your teeth. :shrug: not sure. Peace

[tx_dem41]

41. As we dwell in our echo chamber....

most of us think that the whole country is talking about Cindy.

Guess what folks....most "average" people have hardly ever heard of her much less given her a second thought.

We need to stop focusing on Cindy, and start working towards formulating specific policy covering many different areas towards our fight in '06.

[beam me up scottie]

61. You're right.

Dammit.
I hate agreeing with you.

[tx_dem41]

82. Ahhhhh....fess up, BMUS....

you love it! :)

[beam me up scottie]

97. What happens everytime you and I get together?

We're accused of everything from sleeping together to conspiring to bring down DU.

Pretty good for two people that hated each other on sight when they first met.

But, yeah, I'm always up for a good scrap.

And you are right.

[tx_dem41]

112. Thanks for making me smile, BMUS.

Have a good one!

[bpilgrim]

66. the PEACE MOM is all over the M$M and with her recent arrest will only

become more well known, bet.

peace

[tx_dem41]

91. That's the problem, bpilg....you don't know the average person...

you know the "average" DUer. The average person spends about 5 quality minutes with the MSM per day.

They don't get a newspaper. They don't watch the national news. They don't listen to NPR. They listen to music on the radio and watch Law and Order when they get home.

[bpilgrim]

124. BULLSHIT

first of all you don't know me from a can of spray paint and my posts on DU and not only am I an avg person i know PLENTY OF EM, they are all around me at WORK, my NEIGHBORHOOD, everywhere.

and also if the M$M msg didn't get out to people there wouldn't be so much invested in it.

but most importantly, we all talk amongst ourselves, outside of DU & the M$M, which is the BEST form of spreading the word, same as it ever was.

judging by your posts that i have come across you are often an apologist for the elite and always looking to defend them, so, i suspect it is U, who "don't know the average person..."

good night

peace

[tx_dem41]

171. Is it possible for you to have a civil conversation without resorting..

to profanity? I know all walks of life from homeless, to musicians, to unemployed, to restaurant workers, to mechanics, to engineers, to lawyers and doctors and everything in between. And, we talk together as a group on an almost daily basis.

I'm glad you don't take the normal DU line of non-communication with non-lefties. Communication is the key.

[bpilgrim]

264. "Is it possible for you to have a civil conversation without resorting.."

to presumptuous disdain, ridicule or dismissiveness of the left and support of the elite and their policies?

if not i will call BS.

fyi

peace

[Name removed]

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[Stand and Fight]

52. I do as well as I'm given.

I'm sick of these ass-clowns posting their idiocy.

[Name removed]

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[Stand and Fight]

116. Well, I hope you choke on it. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

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[Stand and Fight]

126. I would like to take a line from Grover, but I won't....

No, that just wouldn't be polite at all, but would you mind finding a tub and conducting yourself accordingly? :evilgrin:

[LittleClarkie]

122. You've actually survived longer here than I ever did on Free Republic

after posting something that made it obvious.

If you were being warm, friendly and tolerant, you'd probably get it back. But we're not Jesus. You slap us, and we'll tend to slap back. No fair whining about the lousy welcome then. You get what you give.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

139. Damn, I hate it when that happens

now I'm curious

[U4ikLefty]

137. Poof...and they're gone!!! n/t

[CatWoman]

252. LOLOLOLOLOL

Who is this "name removed" person?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

127. Harr!

This was my favorite reply! Kudos, RagingInMiami. Kudos.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[Stand and Fight]

132. What a riot!!!

This little troll is a helluva lot of fun, yes?

[LittleClarkie]

141. That's MISTER

Motherfucking Cocksucker to you, buddy!

;)

[WilliamPitt]

48. ahhhhh duuhhhhh pzzzzzcheeeezzzzz

I'll bet the Nazis were funny, too...in their way.

[Spiffarino]

57. So I guess your underlying message is...

...Arab lives are worthless so we should just kill 'em all.

Right. Heard that one before.

News flash: Your ability to write good satire doesn't make you any less of an asshole.

[punpirate]

138. The merely clever...

... always end up resorting to sophistry. It's the end game of those without facts.

Even satire is not your strong suit, I'm afraid. Swift's reputation is quite safe from your attempts at the genre.

Cheers, and adios.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

46. Her son was murdered & she wants to know why.

She wants to know what "the noble cause is" - She deserves that answer. What the hell are you talking about? What expectations are you putting on her?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[SoCalDem]

53. TNT

:)

[WilliamPitt]

55. You wouldn't know

I have this dream. In my dream, I turn on my TV and CNN is on. Some talking head is there to do the top of the hour report. In my dream, the talking head says, "Today in Iraq, the 26,000 liters of anthrax, the 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, the 500 tons which is one million pounds of sarin, mustard and VX gas, the 30,000 munitions to deliver these agents, the mobile biological weapons labs, the uranium from Niger and the robust nuclear weapons program that George W. Bush told us about in his January 2003 State of the Union address were, once again, not found anywhere. Now here's Flappy with the weather."

One of these days, my friends. One of these days.

[Spiffarino]

72. OK, I'll reiterate. What's the noble cause?

You worship at the altar of Bush. What's the noble cause he's talking about?

After looking at your past few posts, I'm thinking you stole that piece from somebody much more intelligent than yourself.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

87. Killfiling

Aw fuck. A common troll. And I thought there might actually be a freep out there with more than two brain cells to rub together.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[txindy]

98. Hope springs eternal.

But if this one had one more brain cell, it'd be lonely.

[Name removed]

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[txindy]

108. Don't sprain your brain with any deep "toughts," okay?

:eyes: Type fast. :popcorn:

[Name removed]

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[Spiffarino]

107. This is awesome!

I just changed this clown's name to "Ignored" and now it's all over the post. I feel so empowered! :D:thumbsup:

[zulchzulu]

54. Rosa Parks was considered a loudmouth too in her time

I hope Cindy is here to stay. Yes, the RW and the MSM will do anything they can to discredit her.

Who cares.

[RoyGBiv]

58. 50+ responses ...

And no replies from the OP. Go figure. :shrug:

At lease Cindy doesn't run from her battles.

Oh, and, just for the record, I'm not going to scream and yell, but I'm going to call this bullshit what it is. :freak:

[cynatnite]

62. Post #50 n/t

[RoyGBiv]

90. I'm so impressed.

:eyes:

[ruggerson]

102. What, I didn't measure up to your speed?

Talk about bullshit.

[RoyGBiv]

325. I apologize ...

It was wrong of me to presume you were not willing to respond to the criticism.

[Gloria]

59. The message has to go back to basics: WHAT IS THE NOBLE CAUSE,

Mr. President...

It's getting out of focus now...

[Pam-Moby]

63. Is it showtime again?

:popcorn: :beer:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

76. Now that we've seen your wank-site

What's the noble cause? Cat got your tongue? Or are you just another CR post-and-run pansy?

[txindy]

78. Thanks for posting your family pics here.

Oh, and welcome to Du. Type fast. :eyes:

[Spiffarino]

83. He doesn't have to

That wasn't his writing originally. He "borrowed" it from somebody far more literate (but no less hateful) than himself.

I'm starting to like this guy. He takes a punch and keeps coming back for more. It's like shooting skeet except the pigeons aren't moving.

[txindy]

85. The wheel's spinnin', yet the hamster's long since dead, too.

And smells like it. Where's the challenge?! :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

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[txindy]

92. You're lost. Your rally was on Sunday. All 30 pro-war supporters.

I hear they fell into the porta-potties and came out smelling better than when they arrived. Fancy that.

[Name removed]

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[txindy]

100. Go back to sleep and dream of the coming indictments, Karl.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[txindy]

109. LOL! As long suspected.

Karla, then.

Good night, Karla. It's late and I've got no impending felony indictments to keep me awake.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

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[Stand and Fight]

117. Sheesh, you're a real piece of work.

I'll give you credit though -- you're bold as all hell behind a keyboard.

[Name removed]

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[Stand and Fight]

129. Yes, but you, the true idiot, doesn't see the strategy behind such a move.

Thanks for the "news" though. Now step away from the Kool-Aid.

[never cry wolf]

136. Here's another piece of news:

September, 2000. PNAC issues policy paper "Rebuilding America's Defenses" Iraq to be invaded on false pretense of a new Pearl Harbor.

[Pam-Moby]

121. Its to bad that

Prescott Bush didn't have brains enough to pull out before he created the chain of retards. Then we would not be dealing with this retard in the WH. Your president sucks.

[Kailassa]

152. um yes ... so what?

Did anyone ever explain to you that breasts are a wonderful part of the body, they are beautifully designed baby feeders? It's a sad culture that thinks children must be protected from seeing them.

These women appear to be making a valid point, which I guess goes right over your head. People can label a woman's breasts as obscene and worry about the effect they will have on the children, yet turn a blind eye to the real obscenities of the would. I don't care if my kids see everyone naked, a body is just a body, we all have one. I do care though that I am having to raise them in a country where the politicians endorse the use of torture.

Try asking yourself what obscenities in this world really need to be fought instead of misusing pictures you don't understand to vilify a person who's example you could never live up to.


(This was a response to a post that has since been deleted, that showed pics supposedly taken at the anti-war rally)

[txindy]

68. Cindy is the same as she's always been. Others have followed HER.

She hasn't followed them around, begging people to let her lead them. And she is one of the reasons so many hundreds of thousands of people turned out in DC this past Saturday. If she isn't helping anymore, than someone must've just flipped the 'Off' switch since Saturday. :eyes:

A "distraction" and a "side show?" Gee, don't some people wish that was true. She's too effective for that, as evidenced by all of the threads here (and on other boards/blogs) with freepers and wingnuts throwing mud at her. She terrifies them.

No yelling and screaming from me. Why, in God's name, would I bother? It's been all of 27 days since the closing of the Crawford Camp Casey. My, my, don't 'we' have a short attention span. :eyes:

[Chomskyite]

77. Yeah and

. . . I guess Martin Luther King should have stayed home rather than lead all those marches. It was all a sideshow. He wasn't moving public opinion in our direction.

[Sunkiss BlueStar]

80. The Day Cindy

came into our lives was the day all and every issue(s) we ever wanted in the open could finally be in the open.

Cindy has given the Democrats and Liberals a great opportunity to stop having one track minds.

We can deal with poverty,hunger,health care, racism,foreign affairs etc..all at once, unlike repukes


Ignoring Cindy is too one track mind and so unDU like.

[Lex]

88. You're wrong.

nt

[bluedawg12]

105. Beware: Jump the Shark phenom.

When the message is over taken by the antics. a worry.

[ruggerson]

133. Exactly. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

287. You hit the nail on the fuckin' head

For me, personally, it all seemed a little crass and antic-y, from the beginning -- I'm not a "cult of personality," kind of person, like many of the knee-jerkers here on DU, (except for when it comes to Mario Cuomo, Frank Zappa or Thomas Jefferson -- who, I think, have proved themselves over a number of decades...:)), neither am I overtly sentimental, so Cindy didn't do too much for me. That's a personal opinion, however, and I supported Camp Casey, and what she was trying to do.

It is this "jump the shark" deal that is intriguing -- when put that way, it seems clear, to me, that the entire anti-war movement has jumped the shark, since the 1960s, the protest marches, the soft-core, ball-less "all-too-civil" disobediences -- even the people who "do something," for the movement, occassionally, are still far too chained to their computers -- and don't need to be harshing others for their ineffectiveness. Some people don't participate in some of this, because they don't feel that these events, these token, sentimental narratives have any efficacy. Or little, anyway.

I, personally, hate sappy narrative, and have as much of a problem with a person -- any person -- who stands on TV, bawling -- tearless or not, and shouting slogans -- because BOTH SIDES DO IT. How do you think that the GOP got to be as pervasive as they are? They always credit it to their "reason," but it's really not -- it's baseless fear and sentimentality -- two of the most irrational human emotions that there are. So, to me, it's every bit as lame, when the left does it, as when the right does it. Perhaps this is the problem with Cindy -- nothing against the woman, her cause, her son, her message -- but because those of us who are cynics are not moved by emotional plea, and suspicious of those who are so easily "moved," by conventional narratives and attempts to tie tired signs to tired signifiers, with the intended outcome so...goddamn scripted.

For some of us, that's frustrating and we see these things as counter-effective. There are a lot of people on here who hate ANSWER for similar reasons -- it's not such a stretch, when you think about it, philosophically, to extend that same kind of critique to Cindy, or to any other person who is providing a springboard for a narrative that really has little to do with the geo-political situation, at hand.

We'd do far better to make individual, local changes, rather than uplink our brains into the national discourse -- which is a circus, in and of itself, as far as I'm concerned, and to make changes in our lives, in our activities, in our buying habits, in our alliances, rather than tailgate behind an icon, and expect it to sweep us to glory. What we should hope is that the world become too complex for simple appeals to emotion, the clap-trap and the "good story," meant to persuade a person, outside of rationality, outside of practicality.

Some of us, who are cynical, and have really sensitive bullshit detectors are sensitive to "shark-jumping" moments, and I agree with ruggerson, and some of the others -- and it's not just Cindy but this whole sixties re-dux that has outlived its efficacy.

[Rainscents]

120. What is your problem? Our Democratic leader anit doing shit, so plain

average woman decide, she want an answer from GWB "what noble cause her son die for?" Do you have a problem with this? Have your son died from GWB's war?
It only take one peson to start something and this time, it is Cindy! Lastime, it was King, time before, it was Brown...

[niyad]

131. hmm, you are aware, aren't you, that SHE isn't the one making the fuss and

getting attention focused on herself? you are speaking as though she had control over what the media is saying about her.

I find it interesting that when the peace people are FINALLY getting at least SOME attention, that it isn't just the freepes whining about it.

[Kailassa]

156. fee fie foe fum, I smell the blood of a ...

The fact that a person posts here is hardly proof that they are not a freeper.

[Meatwad]

140. What are you doing to sway public opinion?

Did you lose a son in an illegal war?

If not, I'd be quiet if I were you.

[beam me up scottie]

145. Since WHEN do you have to have a dead kid to speak up ?

Do YOU ?

You have no right to try to silence someone you disagree with.

[Cats Against Frist]

292. Thank you.

The "IF-YOU-DON'T-HAVE-A-PERSONAL-STAKE-then-SHUT-the-FUCK-UP" brigade is in full force, on this thread.

I honestly can't think of anything more stupid that someone could say.

[grasswire]

148. question: why was cindy laughing as she was being arrested?

I've been watching that clip all day and hearing news people comment on her laughing as she's carried away. It is jarring, to say the least. It's always instructive to remember how those in the Civil Rights movement carried themselves. The moral high ground is Cindy's, but it can be lost.

[Rainscents]

150. It best to laugh and to be screaming! Trolls do lot of screaming!

[beam me up scottie]

151. That's an interesting observation.

I hadn't thought about it like that.

No, I don't remember any of the Civil Rights protesters giggling when they were arrested.

They were probably too afraid for their lives.

Another reason why the analogy doesn't quite work.

[cynatnite]

154. People will react differently than we expect

I thought maybe it was one of surprise or fear. My sister has a tendency to laugh when she knows she should be crying. My stepdad's family gave her hell over it.

[beam me up scottie]

155. Oh, I'm not judging her.

I think she's very brave.
I'm thinking more about what I'll hear tomorrow when I go to work.

[Mr_Spock]

212. Where do you work?

Sounds like you got some Freepers there to contend with. :(

[beam me up scottie]

231. Freepers and moderates.

Unfortunately, the moderates only know who she is by listening to the freepers.

Dissent is not tolerated here, either.

[Mr_Spock]

241. "Dissent is not tolerated here, either" . I beg to differ.

When you chase after and attack people who question another person's post, YOU are stifling dissent. We are allowed to question a persons motives here aren't we? We are allowed to ask for more than just a "feeling" regarding a persons stated opinion when it regards another person who is highly regarded by many here. You are right, dissent is not tolerated - but it is you who is intolerant.

[beam me up scottie]

248. Wrong.

I made a comment about opinions being subjective and you had a snit.

You then mis-characterized the op several times in order to justify your over-reaction.

[Mr_Spock]

251. Hahahahaha!!!

Now who's on the defensive.

You're a real meany - leave me alone.

[Name removed]

273. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

275. ...and yet another personal attack

Yep, I have a problem with people who end thier arguments in a personal attack.

[nolabels]

158. It's better to laugh, it hurts less that way and annoys the tormentor

Besides you can think better when your able to laugh about it. It doesn't confuse me a bit. The question I would ask would it better if she cried?

I think she has cried enough tears for everybody already and being strong is an illusion for those who believe in illusions

[Kailassa]

159. What? She laughed?? NOOOO!!!!!!

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if she was sharing a joke with one of the policemen who were carting her off. They're human too, and it would be just like her to bring out the best of them as she does with so many others.

I'm sure her detractors would have prefered she was swearing and screaming abuse at them, but they'll never get that from her. She's a lady.
(edited for typo)

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. Nervousness

common yuo know, and that makes a person human

[donheld]

157. Can point us in the right direction?

You don't like Cindy. Can you find us a better person to lead the charge? I doubt you can.

[LibertyorDeath]

162. Personally

I think your post is flame bait shit.

[bowens43]

164. Well then , lets turn the movement over to you.

You can run the entire thing......

[earth mom]

166. So if you can do better, why don't YOU take over?

What's YOUR message? Do you think any one will give a damn about it? C'mon! Let's see you do the same! Though it's very doubtful you will get very far or few will care the same way they will care about a mother who has lost a son to a war based on a LIE!

Cindy shines because she is one of the few that have taken a major stand against the BFEE! And she has them scared shitless! She has made a difference and has a following because the light of her integrity and the force of her beliefs shine through.

Her intentions are PURE. That's ALL that matters. 'Nuff said.

[in_cog_ni_to]

168. BULLFUCKINGSHIT. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

169. So get out in front & lead.

It's easy to bitch from the peanut gallery.

[leesa]

170. "Over the top statements"?? Care to elaborate...or is it just truth that

bothers you?

[Mutley]

174. "Equal rights for Americans of all colors" was over the top, too.

Right? And, "Make it legal for women to vote", that was over the top as well. Oh, and "Free us from British oppression" was also over the top. Cindy Sheehan is the voice of the Freedom Movement as MLK, and so many others were voices for very important causes of the past, and all of their views were considered "over the top", but look where it got us. Despite the problems with *, this country is far better for their "wacky" liberal ways.

[Walt Starr]

175. You're free to have your opinion

IMO, her arrest yesterday took a nearly healed political wound in the Bushevik armor, opended it up again, then rubbed salt and lemon juice in it.

[ebal]

198. size of wound

If she hadn't been smiling in the arrest, probably so (if you are using the premise that Bush ins't a vampire, which would not be botherd by these flesh wounds)

She isn't convincing anyone that wasn't already on her side with the arrest as it was.

If her idea was to preach to the choir, then I guess it worked.

[Walt Starr]

200. You're free to have an opinion

I disagree vehemently with you, though.

[GOPAgainstGW]

178. 100% Agree. Cindy Sheehan is NO John Kerry & Has NO Key Dem Support!

[Mr_Spock]

186. Define KEY Dem support.

I'm just curious who that might be - do "we the people" count? ...or just the politicians?

[jonnyblitz]

190. eh...nevermind..delete.

why the fuck bother.

[crispini]

179. Serious post here, would like an answer....

I don't know what her "over the top statements" are. Could you provide examples and links? Sorry if this has already been covered in the thread, I sort of skimmed it but it's pretty flamey at this point.

And I'll reserve my opinion until later -- you appear to have been given plenty of opinions already. :P

[Mr_Spock]

180. Because Rush said so, it must be true.

I'm glad the righties are popping a vein over her.

GO CINDY!!!

:D

[pecwae]

181. She's doing a helluva lot more

than I am at this point. More power to her and to those who speak out.

[DemonFighterLives]

194. I think Cindy is great

Whether she is the main focus is up for debate. I know that the righties exhibit a strong hatred for the peaceful woman who lost her son. There are more gold star families out there and some may come forward. Just so happens that Cindy has the ability and the strength to carry many others' loads.

Lots of deleted posts here. If nothing else this thread is a good freeper trap.
Worthless freepers have to stand behind the killer in chief no matter who dies. It is all for the glory of the empire.

[ozarkvet]

328. I think she is great, as well.

I personally think she should run for Congressional office; she would have a more effective and direct voice.

Has anyone approached her?

[AlCzervik]

209. "Our direction" she's not a tool to be used, she's pissed

and aggrieved that her son was killed in this awful illegal Bush war, it was us that raised her up, she's not doing anything different then she was 6 months ago.

[dogday]

219. So what do you suggest? Kick her to the Curb?

She is the symbol for peace, for ending this war and has made more progress than any of us combined with our letter writing, etc. What over the top statements has she made? She has sacrificed alot including the death of a Son. Do you have children? Do you have children in the war? I have a Son who leaves in November, I admire Cindy and don't know how I could live if anything happened to my son.

She has taken a negative and turned it into a positive. She has put a face on this war and she has personally stuck it to GWB.

[info being]

221. Best thing about Cindy is she doesn't listen to shit like this

She does what she wants and is a real leader.

[titoresque]

283. I second that!

Thankyou! You made the most relevent point! :toast:

Go Cindy!

[dasmarian]

232. I agree

with the original poster. I have been watching (and supporting) Cindy, but she has left her original and stiking point and become unfocused. Before flaming me, consider this . . .

When she started this endeavor as one lady by the road in front of Bush's ranch, it was a huge statement, something many Americans could admire, a single citizen standing up to an entire governmental ideology. Now with many "followers" she is quickly becoming unfocused from her original and striking point, which was simply to speak with the president and ask why her son died. Her focus has been lost at the expense of becoming a movement leader.

So the poster is not some RW'er and neither am I, but (s)he is right. Step back and look at it, and you can see that what made her such a unique icon has become unfocused -- and here is the biggest point -- sometimes one really unique and noteworthy individual can spur more action and thought than the masses, and with her shift to lead the masses she has lost the biting edge that gave her national attention. It isn't Cindy's fault that she attracted so many followers, but now her original position is rapidly fading and she is beginning to be viewed as "just another left-winger" by many when she was intially viewed as an everyman demanding accountability from the government.

So all of you criticizing this poster and who follow Cindy, continue to follow her for what she is to you -- that is fine -- but for the people you really want to reach, the message has become muddled.

[crispini]

236. Ok, someone new in this thread.

I'lll ask the question I asked above. I don't know what her "over the top statements" are. How is she becoming unfocused? Where, exactly, is she muddling the message? Could you provide examples and links?

I feel like I've missed some earlier discussion or something.

[dasmarian]

291. Please don't read more into

my post than what I said. I think you are.

I didn't refer to any "statements" made by anyone.

I am also not implying that she as a person is unfocused.

I believe it is her *impact* as an individual on the national psyche which is becoming unfocused or muddled.

An example: when she started this campaign as one woman along the side of the road, I think there was a tremendous national interest in seeing what the outcome would be. Obviously, look at the media circus generated at the time. I believed, and I think many did, that * would eventually come out and speak with her if she stayed the course (alas, he didn't, but sent others on his "behalf"). And many, many people on a lot of different sides wanted to see that happen. Can you honestly say that you would expect * to walk out of the WH into a throng of people unhappy with policy just to speak with her one-on-one now? Of course this will not occur. Read this carefully: While she is a galvanizing figure for the anti-war camp (and many posters here), she has lost the interest that she held at one time with those on the fringe of that camp or who are outside of it.

And this is what I mean by saying that her impact has become muddled, and she has become unfocused from her original goal of just speaking with the president and getting a straight answer from him. Due to her new role of torch bearer, she is losing the national interest she once held in order to devote her ativities to organizing the masses.

[crispini]

297. Her message is changing.

Camping outside Crawford in a ditch demanding to meet with Shrubya worked fine for August. He's not there anymore. What should she do next?

Anyway, I guess I really need to talk to the OP (who hasn't come back to this thread). I'm not really so interested in OPINION on Sheehan -- I want to know what facts, articles etc. they are basing those opinions on. Nobody's giving me squat.

[dasmarian]

304. fwiw,

Articles are opinions, just written by journalists. Unless you can find an unbiased poll on Cindy Sheehan's impact on an unbiased representative sample, you will not find any "facts." I doubt any such polls have been conducted. Similar polls would also have to have been conducted weeks ago to judge change over time.

The OP was stating his opinion and I was stating mine, really, just as everyone here is.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

242. Why is your

User profile disabled ? Just curious.

[second edition]

245. I tend to agree with you on Cindy at this point.

I think she went over the top by getting arrested. IMO this serves to tag all anti-war protesters as out of control. This is exactly what the press and the repubs have been waiting for.I see no reason for her to have allowed herself to get arrested. Who is advising her? She had credibility and sympathy until this stunt. You would have thought that after the protests from the "60's" people would have learned that getting arrested isn't the way to go. What's next, violence? Do we just want attention or do we what to change opinions?

[crispini]

258. So the only point you have with her is the getting arrested?

I'm trying desperately to get someone to tell me what their problems are with Cindy, specifically, and nobody will.

I don't have a problem with her getting arrested. It's a time-honored tradition of civil disobedience to get arrested, and it is in fact an honor to get arrested in a good cause. MLK Jr. himself spent time in jail. I applaud people who get arrested doing acts of civil disobedience. I think it's great, and I don't think it hurts our cause with Middle America. It's quite obviously an arrest to make a point.

What else? I'm really curious here. So far all I see are these unfounded generic fuzzy accusations that "Cindy isn't doing the cause any good" and no substance to them at all. What did I miss?

[second edition]

315. Well she is looking more like a political tool than a grieving

mother,her grief is being drowned out by others with other agendas and this making her less believable.

[RetroLounge]

253. And in the continuing case of the dissapearing spines...

more dems worry about what the right thinks.

yawn

RL

[sniffa]

261. indeed

*yawn*

[second edition]

316. No, it more about how they twist it and use against our candidates

when addressing moderate and middle of the road voters. remember, we aren't the only ones who vote. Actually, they out number us.

[TankLV]

256. Yell and scream. My official response to you.

Flame.
Fleme.
Flame.

You are sooooo wrong.

And millions of us disagree with you.

[genieroze]

257. Bull-crap, the lady has a pair and knows how to use them. Go Cindy!

[yodermon]

271. The "Cindy Sheehan" phenomenon was totally organic.

She didn't set out to be a focal point, she simply became one. She is not a politician or representative. She is not encumbered with having to tailor her message to fit a constituency. Remember this when you cringe at her "over the top" statements. She does not claim to be speaking for you.

It is not up to you or anyone else to determine what the focal point of the "movement" will be. That's why it's a Movement -- not an agenda. It's a thousand different singing voices which occasionally hit a very strong and resonant harmonic. If the harmonic fades, it does not mean the song has stopped.

If the focus naturally drifts away from her, then so be it.

Here's an idea: instead of dismissing her wholesale; instead of wringing your hands about how Cindy Sheehan the PERSON might detract from your idea of the what "the Movement" should be -- why don't you list the points on which you disagree with her, make them known, and then move on?

It's possible to disagree with a person on any number of points without blacklisting them completely. That's why we're Democrats & Progressives instead of lockstep freepers & repukes. We can't win by adopting their tactics.

[benburch]

281. Amen!

You are totally on target.

[beam me up scottie]

289. And yet, you did try to blacklist the op.

You even started another thread to try to garner support against him by mis-characterizing what he posted.

And you continue to do so on this thread, despite his clarification.

You're basically telling him he was lying because you received a different "message" than what he posted.

When he asserted, again, that he was not trying to silence her, you accused him of lying.

Not very democratic, is it?

[benburch]

295. Do you enjoy making things up?

I blacklisted nobody! The half-dozen people here who pay attention to my opinions hardly qualify as a blacklist squadron!

And bash me all you like, but I am still not going to take back a word I said.

Dissent is the ESSENCE of Democracy, or weren't you paying attention in civics class?

[crispini]

288. ======= would SOMEONE in this freakin thread answer me? ========

What, if any, is the substance to the OP's post, i.e. "Over the top statements," or earlier in the thread, "anti-semitic bias."

Are there links? I would like to read the original threads, statements, or articles.

Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

290. I have no idea.

I don't follow the msm and I lost track of which comments were made by whom after the last meltdown on DU over what she said.

I admire her for what she's doing and I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion on the subject.

[crispini]

294. Well, I DO follow the MSM, and I haven't seen anything

like what he's talking about. And I'm on DU all the time and the only meltdown I saw was the hurricane comment on Kos. Is that IT?

I, like you, admire her for what she's doing and agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'm just completely perplexed as to the roots of this whole flamewar. :shrug:

[bpilgrim]

299. FAUX and the RW WACKO TalkRadio often harp on her 'anti-american'

and/or 'anti-semetic' statements.

it's basically the same 'charges' made against International Answer, here... BULLSHIT, for the most part.

hope that helps :hi:

peace

[crispini]

301. Tks.

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

303. No, the Israel comments were from quite a while ago.

And I think the Iraqi freedom fighter comment was taken out of context.

Check yesterday's GD threads if you can, there had to be dozens of them about this.

[yodermon]

298. "You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine."

http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml

And, "But now that we have decimated the country, the borders are open, freedom fighters from other countries are going in..."
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Sheehan

and http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/9/24/85619/4714/25 : "I am watching CNN and it is 100 percent (Hurricane) Rita...even though it is a little wind and a little rain...it is bad, but there are other things going on in this country today...and in the world!!!!"

that's all I got.

:shrug:

(on edit: added last link)

[crispini]

300. Ah HA!

Thank you.

At least now I see what all the flaming is about.

That's it? Jeez, what a tempest in a teapot. Joe Barcalounger maybe knows that she had a vigil outside Shrubya's ranch, and he maybe knows that she got arrested. That's it. The rest of this stuff is internet (and media) buzz.

DU: Life in a political junkie's bubble. Sometimes I think people forget that the rest of the world isn't paying anywhere near as much attention to this as we are.

[Mr_Spock]

302. Yep, all of which have been flushed out here on DU...

The "freedom fighters" comment was taken out of context. Within the paragraph it was contained in it had a different meaning.

The Rita comment was just stupid and she apologized for it.

The Israel/Palestinian comment was off topic and ill advised, but not crazy IMHO.

I forget the others if there are any.

I've said things within this thread that I might want to take back - I hope others who have done the same can see that humans sometimes say things they didn't mean to. I believe she is "learning the hard way" - I personally am not going to write her off because she is not perfect...

[beam me up scottie]

310. I apologize for offending you.

Others were telling the op he shouldn't post his opinion, you didn't and I realize the difference.

I disagree with many posters and even question their sanity at times, but I never question their right to post.

I'm glad to see most others agree.

That said, nobody should expect Cindy to be a diplomat.
She's never pretended to be one.

And how many of us are qualified for that job ?
I'm obviously not.

[Mr_Spock]

313. Wow! I accept!

I don't expect Cindy to be a diplomat - far from it - it's that homespun naivete that I so enjoy in her right now. Maybe she'll be a good representative for the anti-war movement going forward, maybe she'll fade away into history. I don't know.

I look fondly back to the days when our leaders seemed to speak so eloquently - MLK, JFK, RFK & others - I forget how at the time they were widely hated for expressing themselves as they did.

I hope we agree on the next issue that comes along. :) I don't know how many times I've had a person who had previously disagreed with me vociferously post strong words of agreement in another post. I know we've agreed in previous posts :D I apologies for any "below the belt" remark(s) I might have made as well :D I'll never qualify as a diplomat!

:D

[beam me up scottie]

318. I come on a little strong sometimes.

Okay, I come on like a Mack truck and I don't know when to quit.
Scrapping is a bad habit of mine, (I blame my brothers) glad I could make amends.

:P

[Mr_Spock]

330. No problem...

We'll move on from here. :D

I didn't want to revive this thread from the dead to reply - but somebody kicked it just now :D

[Bridget Burke]

312. I agree with the Rita comment.

Rita was a big story but not the only national & international story of the week. Here in Texas we had 24/7 Rita coverage on several local stations--quite useful.

Those still suffering from Rita's aftermath need to be covered even if that "story" is considered old news. And aren't there some problems left over from the storm before that one?

As for the rest, context can be quite illuminating.

[Cleita]

305. I don't think her intention is to be a focal point and she

shouldn't be told not to do what she has set out to do.

[berni_mccoy]

306. Why hasn't this flame bait been locked yet?

[bpilgrim]

307. Fair & Balanced

:evilgrin:

peace

[sniffa]

308. because it's entertaining

it's Like rubbernecking at a horrific auto wreck.

[berni_mccoy]

309. Well, it's making me sick to see so much infighting...

Getting tired of it all...

[Mr_Spock]

314. You're enjoying this altogether too much

:D

[sniffa]

317. yes i am

but, i can teLL a certain poster is out to Lunch right now, or this thread wouLd be a whoLe Lot more entertaining. :popcorn:

[lebkuchen]

311. Like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were "distractions"

in the women's movement?

[Generator]

319. Frankly I think it's hard to hurt a movement

when there barely is one. See you guys in another five years and a few million on the streets. Then we can talk. She's all we got. Her and Conyers are the only leaders I've seen since we were told Kerry lost the election. We desperately need leaderst-leaders in the street-rabblerousers, leaders on TV, leaders on the hill, leaders getting arrested, leaders risking something they have-a shot at a dream Presidency or six more years in the senate or a nice house by the shore. We need average people getting arrested and speaking out. We need everyone. She's hardly a liability. She's hardly perfect. But she's the real deal.

What we don't need are the assholes that DU worships, the guy that said FU to Cheney-that was a worthless five second sound bite. The whomever that put whatever pie into whomevers face last year. That juvenile feel good crap is worthless. Many people know Cindy Sheehan's name. She will be forgiven a few slips of the tongue. Her basic message is simple and hasn't changed. Her son died for lies and sons are dying as I type this for a lie or at the very least now, a neo-con fantasy.

Getting arrested is just the beginning. JEEZ did you guys miss the 60's or something? Catch a clue. Thank god Hillary mince my words is not a liablity. AND how many times has she been arrested? I'd take Cindy any damn day-Hillary is worthless too.

[UDenver20]

320. AGREED RUGGERSON...

Don't let people criticize you ad nauseum. You make a good point.

[BikeWriter]

326. WTF is this shit?

:nuke::grr: :argh:

[dhinojosa]

329. I agree. On Chris Matthews last night she said Afghanistan was wrong...

and I just can't agree with that.

[jonnyblitz]

335. afghanistan WAS wrong. nt