Was Pat Tillman fragged for his political beliefs? I think so......

[trumad]

This is fucking incrdible:

Some readers may recall that I've written about Pat Tillman before. The San Francisco Chronicle is out with this must-read article that updates the story with new details. Some excerpts:
A Chronicle review of more than 2,000 pages of testimony, as well as interviews with Pat Tillman’s family members and soldiers who served with him, found contradictions, inaccuracies and what appears to be the military’s attempt at self-protection.

For example, the documents contain testimony of the first investigating officer alleging that Army officials allowed witnesses to change key details in their sworn statements so his finding that certain soldiers committed “gross negligence” could be softened.

Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author.
The horrific description of his death at the hands of his fellow soldiers:
The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

The soldier continued, “I then looked over at my side to see a river of blood coming down from where he was...I saw his head was gone.”

http://cunningrealist.blogspot.com/2005/09/anatomy-of-disgrace.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[greatauntoftriplets]

2. He was killed by friendly fire.

Not so random.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[MyNameGoesHere]

27. WAR IS NOT RANDOM!

His death may have been "random" as you think but some evil motherfucker started the war. That is not a random happening. I also beg you to test your "random" theory.

[cynatnite]

35. Friendly fire is a fact of war

No one is saying war is random, but tragedies such as Tillman's is not uncommon. What made it worse was the military's attempt to use his death as a recruiting tool.

[MyNameGoesHere]

58. No war=no friendly fire deaths.

No randomness that i can see.

[cynatnite]

62. friendly fire is one of the symptoms of war and is random...

can't change that fact no matter how you dress it.

[MyNameGoesHere]

68. I reject your reality

and replace it with my own. I refuse to accept the premise that friendly fire is an acceptable incident, when in fact it can be prevented by just saying no to war.

[cynatnite]

71. No one is saying it is acceptable...

It's a sad and tragic nature of war that's been around since the first war of man.

'My reality' as you call it...is fact. There's no getting around it.

As far as 'just saying no to war'...well, war is hell and rarely does it bring about much good. In an ideal world, war wouldn't even exist.

[MojoXN]

67. Where are you at in WV?

Just Curious... :)

MojoXN

[Zuni]

54. but in the chaos of battle, death is often random

and deaths by friendly fire happens all the time

[leftofthedial]

69. except in the sense that all death is "random"

war in death is NOT random

It has nothing to do with "great soldiers avoiding death." Different soldiers have different roles, skills, experience and attitudes, all of which influence the likelihood they could be killed.

Friendly fire is not always accidental. Throughout the history of war, combat has been used by soldiers to inflict "justice" on their own.

While the OP does not make a case that Tillman was fragged, the Army and the bushgang have already fed us so many lies about what really happened to him that a high degree of suspicion is warranted.

Also, the "independent thinker-voracious reader" persona is not well tolerated in special forces, where the training and culture encourage lockstep unquestioning loyalty. It also is a side of Tillman of which I was unaware.

[cynatnite]

73. Special Forces are a breed all their own

They do require independent thinking considering the unusual circumstances they find themselves in when in combat. I knew a few of those guys and while they were gung-ho all the way and loyal to a fault, they were also some of the smartest people I had ever met. Two of them were doctors.

[fleabert]

3. really?

:popcorn:

tell me more about your views in general please.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[fleabert]

8. interesting.

I'll take you at your word.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fleabert]

13. consider yourself officially

slammed. I'll leave it at that for your voting record. Just don't do it again. Now let's move on.

Have you done any research into what political party you might be most in line with? there are several online that are more than just entertainment or for fun, that might help you more to find your path politically.

a blunt word of advice (not that you asked for it, but...) IMHO you'd be better served to read more and post less in the beginning of your search. I noticed your first two posts were not very supportive of the OP, that will not get you very far here as a newbie. There are way too many trolls here for that to fly for long, even if you aren't a troll. If you really are here to learn, then you might hear what I am saying as wise advice, and not as me trying to shut you up. That's what I did, I didn't post until I knew for certain I was in the right place.

I personally welcome you to DU, and hope that you do find it to be a home away from home, as I do.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fleabert]

17. since that means you also can't get PM's yet either...I will just say this

fyi- any 'debate' that goes against a core liberal principle will get you tombstoned. That is not the point of DU, remember that, and you will do just fine. (advice done) :-)

I also apologize for the hijack, but I think it was a valuable one.

Good luck, and again, welcome to DU. Check out the lounge, it's one of my favorite places, and a welcome respite at times from the seriousness elsewhere.

[karynnj]

31. Realize that in any public forum, you have to wade through

chaff to get to the wheat; and chaff for one, will be wheat for another. There are very many points of view represented here. Links to the positions on issues of various Democratic, Green or other progresive leaders are included on some posts. Looking at them may help you decide who (or which group) you agree with more. If you like some of the speeches or positions of one or more leaders, realize they all have websites.

Some of us are not really that different than you. My believes are far more in line with the Democratic party, but I have voted for good Republicans over mediocre Democrats. Be warned that there is a fair amount of anger in the degree to which the country has been pulled from the values most of us grew up thinking were American. Reading here - you may find "ignore" is your friend.

Anyway, welcome and I hope you find a leader who you can trust. During the last 2 elections, there was a concerted media/Republican effort to distort the positions and personalities of the Democrats - so in looking don't ignore Kerry or Gore. Read Kerry's Brown and Boston speeches and Gore's environmental speech. Kerry's Brown speech (Katrina Administration) is on www.johnkerry.com; the Bostonspeech from yesterday is on his Senate website, www.kerry.senate . I don't know where to find Gore's speech, but it was on this board earlier this week. (Clark also has a web site with a lot of information.)

[formernaderite]

57. Well since you've voted for Perot, you're at least familiar

with third party politics. Sounds perhaps like you lean libertarian. My wife who only votes third party, voted Perot both times, then Harry Browne, and Michael Badnarik. I find the two majority parties a bit statist, however I gave the dems another chance in 04. In 08 I will refuse to compromise. Anyway welcome to DU.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

39. Hi BigDawg05! Welcome to DU!

Glad you're here! :hi:

[slor]

43. TWICE!?!

That makes you suspect. I do hope you are sincere, but come on man, you voted for that EVIL fucktard 2004? With all that you saw, after his first strafing run on the country, and the rest of the world? And yes, he and the rest of his cabal are in fact, evil!

[formernaderite]

59. considering he's admitting to it...let up

I would think the trolls are those who don't come out and tell everyone.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

44. correction

the Republicans are evil.

[fleabert]

79. I guess my first instincts were correct about this one...

I tried to be open-minded.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. What about the cover-up?

Can you just as easily dismiss the cover-up?

[BigDawg05]

7. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

The cover-up was the worst possible thing the military and Washington could have done. Day 1 the truth should have been told. The cover-up was horrible and people should have lost their jobs and/or been prosecuted to the fullest extent for knowingly covering it up.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Where does fragging fall into your war is hell perspective?

[JanMichael]

12. And you know this how?

Are you a military investigator? Were you there?

I am surprised by the depth of your assurance---

Stephanie

[shance]

15. Really? They were just ignoring his pleas?

My God. This is so sad.

[Kagemusha]

18. It's hard to hear a plea when you're shooting at someone.

Guns are loud, and adrenaline rushes block out such things. It's not *implausible* that they just plain didn't register what he was saying, and how much they heard him was unclear. Unfortunately that's what you'd want a, you know, actual proper investigation to find out. We don't know anything about where he was shot or the acoustics involved except that there was not clear line of sight.

Just saying that they may or may not have been intentionally ignoring his pleas. The annoying thing is that the Army preferred to create a tale of noble heroism rather than send in the CSI types to figure this one out. That failure makes it more likely we'll just never know... which was not a result of gunfire echoes or adrenaline.

[peacebaby3]

76. Actually.

We do know where he was shot. Three, precise bullets to the forehead according to previous investigations. Yet, they also say that the other soldiers were shooting while running (at least originally). But the evidence didn't support that so I think they may have changed the original story.

Also, Tillman set off a smoke cannister to signal the other half of his unit that they were friendlies. I agree they might not be able to hear, but they should be able to see the smoke and no enemy in a shoot-out is going to set off a smoke cannister so their position is pinpointed.

There is a lot of stuff that doesn't add up in this case. I completely agree that there needs to be a real investigation. Unfortunately, I also agree that his family may never really know the whole truth.

[0007]

24. That certainly is an easy way to look at things. Were you

there?

Your flat out statement that Pat Tillman was not assassinated is highly suspect.

[txindy]

26. Yet his journal, a fixture in his life & always updated, has disappeared.

What a coincidence. :eyes:

[brokensymmetry]

29. Tillman for Kerry? Yep!

From the article: "Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry."

Isn't that interesting!

[Mr_Spock]

48. I was going to say something, but TOMBSTONE speaks for me

Ass hole.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. Evidence? n/t

[jody]

10. Tillman's death was a friendly fire accident, nothing more. n/t

[oneighty]

14. Since none of us

were eye witnesses we will never know. Speculation is worthless.

And how is it I wonder why it came to be that all who die in war are automatically heroes. I was/am under the impression that only extraordinary bravery might make one a hero. The term is over used and made worthless.

180

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Hmmmm

"Since none of us were eye witnesses we will never know. Speculation is worthless. "



By that standard the teaching or learning of history is worthless....

[sendero]

21. It pretty much is..

.... (history useless) since it is written from the point of view of the winners.

History is only useful at a very macro level IMHO. The details you read in history might be true, or they might have been pulled out of someone's ass to make things look better.

Look at what passes for journalism today, and realize and understand that it is quite possible that over the course of time it has been more or less the same.

[oneighty]

22. Certainly you are correct in a way.

I am speaking specifically of Tillman and those of us speaking in this forum. If any one of us were eye witness to the event we would be on firm ground. Instead we are speculating as to the accuracy of the reporters of the event. We question history in the same manner. At least I do.

180

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Know Where You Are Going...

And skepticism is healthy...


I just think the "I wasn't there so I can never know what happened" argument can be taken to absurd lengths...


In the presence instance and on many so called conspiracy theories I approach it as if I would a debate...


The negative position or the status quo position is presumed to be correct and the burden of proof is on the affirmative position to prove it isn't correct...

[oneighty]

37. Indeed

But in truth we will never know.

And I speculate right along with the rest.

For instance I suspect people like Tillman might have been a gung-ho shoot em up arrogant prick putting his fellow men-in-arms in jeopardy. So they corrected it.

I say this as a long time military person.

And certainly I am wrong aren't I?

180

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. That's Mean

"For instance I suspect people like Tillman might have been a gung-ho shoot em up arrogant prick putting his fellow men-in-arms in jeopardy. So they corrected it."


The guy gave up a great career in the NFL to go to Afghanistan and ended up dead...


Your epitaph for him is fucking cold....

[oneighty]

45. Life in the military

is cold hard and deadly. And I did not say 'Tillman' I said like Tillman.

There are many in the military that are as I described. And one way or the other they pay for it.

180

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Respect Your Service...

But everything I read about Pat Tillman was that he was a great guy...


We're not talking about some guy who went into the service for lack of options but someone who gave up the American Dream to go into the service...


I agree with you that the term hero is overused but Tillman was a hero... It was an extraordinary act of bravery and patriotism to give up The American Dream to go fight in the Afghan mountains....


If I looked like Pat Tillman and were the starting safety for a NFL team the last thing I'm thinking about is joining the Army...

[oneighty]

52. No his actions did

not make him a hero. If that were so every young man and woman "with out options" as you so sadly put it would also be heroes.

I am sorry for all the young men and women that are put without reason in harms way, including the Tillmans of the world.

And here at the end of my speculation we still do not know the truth and we never will.

180

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. It Is Sad

" If that were so every young man and woman "with out options" as you so sadly put it "


It is sad .... Everbody should want to serve their country regardless of income.....

[chalky]

34. By that token, speculation into OJ's guilt is worthless as well.

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Xactly...

That was a dominant theme during the OJ brouhaha... "I wasn't there so I don't know what happened"....


By that standard you could get away with the most heinous crimes as long as nobody was looking...

[bryant69]

23. You know my dog got kennel cough this last week

I probably would have been able to focus on exposing the Bush Adminstration, but her illness kept me home from the weekend protests and made me unable to write very much (I assure you it was my sick dog and not my laziness that caused this).

Do you think the same people who had Pat Tillman gunned down gave my dog Kennel Cough? I mean it is a little suspicious isn't it?

Or are you naive enough to believe that the Bush Adminstration wouldn't make a dog sick to further their political ends?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[chalky]

36. Depends on how prominent your dog is, who the dogs around him were

serving, and what your dog did to deserve that bout of kennel cough.

[0007]

25. Paging Freddie Stubbs

[trumad]

30. WOW! It's as if some here have no clue what "Fragging" is?

Do you naysayers deny that fragging exists? Pat Tillman speaking out against the Iraq war would seriously damage the neocons......

Oh but you guy's think the Neo's wouldn't go that far?

Ok..whatever.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. "Fragging"

Of course fragging exists but if you are going to say Pat Tillman was fragged because he was a leftie the burden is on you to prove through clear and convincing evidence that is the case..

[trumad]

51. And you have no proof either.

Look...I have no proof that he was and you have no proof that he wasn't. We were lied to from the beginning regarding Tillman's death. Isn't that enough to say that anything is possible with this fuck up? I'd rather side with my doubts than side with the liars.

[0007]

53. Was that post for me trumad? Because I believe fragging exist.

And I question the Pentagon all the way over his death and their lies and cover up.

[trumad]

56. No..sorry..

[trotsky]

32. Pat was also an atheist.

A tragic death no matter what.

[peacebaby3]

41. The article is interesting. Some on this thread should read all of it.

If you read the entire SF Chron article, you will see why the OP has some questions. I'm not willing to back his/her fragging argument either because there isn't enough public info to verify such an accusation, but I do know my husband was threatened when he was serving in Iraq for not "supporting the cause". He slept with one eye open.

There is actually some evidence of "criminal intent" and the family wants to know what that "criminal intent" was and who was involved.

Also, Tillman was shot precisely 3 times in the forehead (according to the report, supposedly while the other soldiers who shot him were running on a hill). I'm no shooting expert, but three precise shots to the forehead sounds like a stationary sniper, not hasty, on-the-run shooting.

He had also set off a smoke cannister in order to alert the other part of the unit that they were Americans. What Al-Qaeda fighters are going to set off a smoke cannister in a shooting battle with US soldiers? Why would the other soldiers still shoot at them? This could definitely be "gross negligence" or "criminal intent".

BUT, the guy who was his close friend that gave a lot of the info also said that the other Rangers in the unit loved Pat. He gave some solid examples of why they certainly would admire and adore him. Why would they purposely assassinate him? Jealousy? That doesn't really make sense because he seemed like the kind of guy who would never bring attention to himself. Unless this guy is lying (which is always possible), it doesn't sound like any of his fellow Rangers would try to hurt him.

There are a lot of things that do not add up and some pretty strong evidence of some kind of cover-up surrounding his death. For example, why were the higher-ups allowed to change their (or his) statement(s)?

That's why this is news because his family is pushing for all of these answers. The material the family has been given is so redacted that it is difficult to learn many details.

Certainly none of us on this board (unless you have some immediate connection you are not sharing with us) can say what happened that day, but his family deserves the whole truth.

[rasputin1952]

42. Another unfounded rumor-mill allegation. Tillman, was killed by...

friendly fire. The unfortunate incident was compounded in its weight by the fact that the Army tried to cover up what was already a tragedy.

While I will not say that this is impossible, I would say that it is exceptionally improbable. There need to be hard facts, and not speculation in this matter. Keep searching, but until there is absolute proof, I find it difficult to believe that a soldier would be taken out by his own men simply because of a political belief; he would have had to be despised by his section to have something like that happen. All accounts say that was not the situation, he was a Ranger, and a well respected one at that.

:patriot:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. I Thought We Are The Party Of Facts And Evidence

And our opponents are the party of faith and emotion....



The common wisdom was that Pat Tillman was the victim of friendly fire. If we are that party that relies on facts and evidence then then we must believe that the burden of proof is on those who claim it was an incident of "fragging" or murder...

[peacebaby3]

49. We are and that is precisely why we should support and speak out so

the Tillman family can find out the entire, unfiltered truth.

They should be given all of the documents surrounding the first 3 investigations - including the original statements of the higher-ups before they were changed.

They should also be allowed to hire an outside investigator and not be forced to rely on the military/government investigating itself. If you read the article, you will see Patrick Tillman, Sr.'s opinion on the investigations that have been conducted by the government.

They have very legitimate questions. I would say this regardless of who their child might have been. It just so happens that he was a well-known football player.

On edit: I also have faith and emotion. In my opinion, having both is what makes us well-rounded human beings. One without the other makes us either ignorant or shallow. I also believe * lacks both.

[trumad]

55. LOL

Now wait... I thought the Taliban killed him.... That's what our government told us... Oh wait...wait.... they lied... it was friendly fire....

Ya see that's the thing DemocratSinceBirth---you were probably content with the first version... but then you find out it's a lie so now you're content with the second version...which was also supplied by the Army. So are they done lying... You seem to thin so.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. All I Am Is Saying Is That The Burden Of Proof Is On Those Who Say It's

An Incident Of Fragging"....

[trumad]

77. Why...

I think since the Army originally lied. the burden of proof should be on them to prove that it was friendly fire and not fragging.

[Zuni]

50. Good post

from what I have heard, the other guys around him loved and respected him.

And it is counter-productive to shoot one of your own when under fire from the enemy

[goddess40]

61. not really counter productive if he was going to blow the whistle

on the atrocities he saw in Iraq. Protecting fellow soldiers reputations comes before telling the truth. Getting rid of someone that isn't 'going along to get along' wouldn't be seen as counter productive.

If we aren't willing to look at the possibility of foul play that gives them free rein to do as they wish. Unfortunately not all soldiers are admirable, and they are drilled to cover up errors and misdeeds alike.

"What happens in the military stays in the military"

[peacebaby3]

64. Good point.

"What happens in the military stays in the military"

As I stated in an earlier post, my husband was threatened with fragging while he was serving in Iraq. Luckily, he wasn't the only one in his unit who felt the same way so they sort of looked out for each other and slept with one eye open. He was one of the few who actually said some things outloud. I told him to keep his mouth shut while he was there and he agreed and tried hard not to make too much noise. We both knew if something happened to him, I would never know the truth.

While I wouldn't compare my husband's situation with Tillman or anyone else for that matter, I know what kind of threats my husband received for not "supporting the cause."

[Zuni]

70. there is no evidence of anything that supports your argument

you are just speculating

[goddess40]

74. That's right - because the military makes it impossible to get the info

but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If someone can imagine it, it can happen.

Remember how hard it was to find out about some of the atrocities that happened in Viet Nam? Do you think we found out about all of them - No way.
What about the torture - does anyone really believe we've seen all the evidence and that it was isolated to the few in the pictures?

[Zuni]

75. no. What happened at Abu Ghraib happened for a long time

I don't think anyone can dispute that with a straight face. I am sure coordinated policies of brutality came down straight from the top as well.

I know people who have been there---people I grew up with. I asked one guy if there were any deliberate attacks on civilians during a conversation about what it is like over there and he said he hadn't seen any---but he had seen civilians wounded during gunfights in towns in field hospitals. The worst atrocity he saw was an Iraqi man walk up to another Iraqi man and shoot him point blank in the head on a street in baghdad.

No one I know has seen deliberate attacks on civilians and non-combatants. He also said they have very strict orders about respecting Iraqi property.

Not that deliberate rapes and murders do not happen (I am sure there have been plenty), but I think the majority of Iraqi non-combatants killed by Americans were accidental, the result of fighting in urban areas.

[rasputin1952]

78. Tillman was an intelligent fellow, and he was a SP4 for crying out loud

or was it a PFC? In any case, PFC's or SP4's are not a real threat to the military. If there were problems of any sort, he would have been transferred, most likely to a non-Ranger unit. I can't believe that the military I served in would kill off someone with a 'gripe', regardless of how true the gripe was.

Tillman also knew he had other avenues within the Army to deal with problems he saw or felt needed to be addressed. There is a Chain of Command, and I can pretty well guarantee it works. Tillman, like any other soldier knew this and would have used it if he felt there were serious situations. Summary execution seems so far from the reality of the Army, that I take this whole thing w/a grain of salt. There is a possibility that an individual had a problenm w/Tillman, and this could be an individual act; but to imply that the 'set up' was in by higher ups is just beyond the pale for me. If this were the case, how do you think the rest of the Unit would react knowing that any 'transgression' would lead to a bullet in the back of the head, (or elsewhere)? It would be insanity on the part of the Command structure to do anything like this. Officers look at their futures with great interest...this would destroy many, and they do not need to do such things.

[shance]

63. Why did they burn all evidence? Because they were covering up the

killing. And someone was trying to erase Pat Tillman and the way in which he was killed.

This seems to be someones murder. The family knows it and many in the military. Why would they go to such great lengths to lie to the family, and all other evidence (sickening) and then continue to try and hide the truth?

[peacebaby3]

66. To my knowledge, they didn't burn the body.

They did burn the body armor and his uniform. The reason they gave was because they knew it was obvious that he was killed by "fratricide." I think their immediate reaction was to cover it up, but that doesn't mean they fragged him. People do these kinds of things when they are scared.

The fact that his journal went missing right after the incident is much more questionable. His journal would not have shown a friendly fire incident (he certainly wouldn't have known ahead of time to write about it), but it might have shown other information about what was going on with him at the time.

There needs to an independent investigation so his family might be able to find the truth or at least put some of their legitimate questions to rest.

To be honest, I doubt they will ever know exactly what happened.

Edit: stupid spelling error

[shance]

72. I edited. I had read that the body had been burned as well.

Hopefully that is not the case.

Either way, there seems to be a cover up here.

Why is the question.