Private England - guilty of what?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

Alberto Gonzales is promoted from White House Counsel to US Attorney General, after he wrote the briefs banning the use of Geneva Conventions for those that we capture in Iraq and Afghanistan.

General Ric Sanchez manages to oversee horrific torture in Gitmo, then does the same in Abu Grhaib. He gets promoted to 4 stars because of his deft handling of PR and prisoners.

Lyndie England, a mere private, is charged and convicted of blindly following orders and having sex. she faces 10 yrs in prison.

Every noncom in the prison initially discussed the presence of top level people who supervised and ordered the torture policies. Yet, an "internal investigation" found nothing wrong.

Senator John McCain has tried three times to pass "no torture" legislation. If anyone would know the importance of that, it would be he. Just check out his scars. However, the White House and Bill Frist have stopped it every time.

Is this the America that I was brought up to love and respect? I don't seem to be able to recognize it.

What is worse is that every single expert will tell you that torture does not work. You end up with brain-damaged people agreeing to anything and everything simply to make you stop. Little or no useable intel has ever been gathered through force. Just ask the Israelis. They have been torturing Palestinians for decades. Obviously, they have successfully stopped all Hamas activties as a result.

[Maccagirl]

1. I don't doubt that McCain is against torture

given the horror that he went through-but please explain the bear-hug of 2004? When push comes to shove, he ALWAYS bows down to the party and Chimpy.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. political expediency. Rove has dirt on him, and threatened "or else"

Recall that Johnnie boy had a little S&L problem (so did Bush's brother). When SHrub was a high flying guy with 55+ support, every GOoPer was falling in line. Now that his star has faded, we shall see.

It may also be party loyalty. McCain has lots of that.
Loyalty is so helpful. Just look where that got us. (Dems, I mean) :sarcasm:

[Skittles]

2. guilty of being one f***ed-up human being

Ms. England is a disgrace to women, a disgrace to the military, a disgrace to America; she should be in jail and all those bastards who allowed the torture to happen should be in jail too.

[cynatnite]

10. Totally agree

She should pay for her crimes as should those who ordered it. She stood over the prisoners and smiled with a smoke hanging out of her mouth. She held a leash tied to one.

[whatever4]

3. Guilty of...

- being of less than average intelligence
- being in the military
- following orders, as she best understood them, from people she trusted

Even by my understanding of the oath, (which is that one should ONLY follow lawful orders, and must pay the personal price for disobeying IF the orders are understood to violate the law) she isn't guilty, because she COULD NOT perceive her orders as being unlawful, because not only is she less able to understand anything, but she was also swayed by what can only be thought of as a severely coercive environment that included her love interest being her boss. And did I mention she isn't that smart?

Her guilt? Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and never being bright enough to realize it. Higher-ups that knew this was the case, and let it continue, letting those types of "soldiers" take the fall for...anything they can.

In the "real" military I knew, she would never have risen above sergeant, and wouldn't have been promoted. In this military, imho, all they want are warm bodies, not thinking soldiers.

[amber dog democrat]

4. a couple of things come to mind:

First there are articles in the UCMJ that would apply in bringing up charges - but its also a white wash. She is being tossed to the wolves in order to protect others higher up the chain of command. I think the Chimp administration is hopng it all ends here.
I am hoping it won't .

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. I now see why Rummie and Bush fought war crimes treaties so hard

sad and sickening.

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. Yup.

They know full well that they would be among the first up against the wall.

[Callalily]

7. I have mixed emotions

about Ms. England's sentence. It truly is a crime what she did, orders or not. And I agree with above comments, that she's just the scape goat, far enough down on the food chain to take the fall for higher-ups. That said, I don't think she had the intelligence to know what she was doing was wrong. She should never have been accepted into the military to begin with. Her life is going to be hell in prison, and for that, I sincerely feel sorry for her. I only wish that those largely responsible could also be punished.

[demnan]

8. I have a good friend from that area of the country

she says that in Ms. England's community women are treated like dogs as are the miners who marry them. It's a poor community rife with brutality, ignorance, exploitation and drunkenness. I see her as a victim, though not one I would want to know.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. that makes perfect sense. This whole situation is so sad.

innocent iraqis tortured and murdered. Our troops in a whole mess 'o danger forever in the future. those who are punished are barely capable of defending themselves. Those in charge walk, with no sense of shame, no remorse and no chance of being held accountable.

[Arkansas Granny]

20. That's it in a nutshell. She didn't come up with these tactics on

her own. It's already been shown that these ideas came from the the highest levels of government. However, they will probably never be forced to pay for the consequences of their actions. All of those involved, including those at the White House and Pentagon, should be serving prison time for this, not just a lowly private.

[sando]

11. What would be laughable

if it weren't so bloody sad is that England's defense was she acted out of being overly compliant becuase of her dominating husband!!??? Of course not a word about the way the military makes good little soldiers in boot camp. That the training is geared toward nothing but conditioning the individual to lose their individuality, to lose their moral compass because they are being trained to kill, and then ultimately to make them into the kind of person that will never question an order because as they are taught their life depends on them taking those orders and acting without thought.

[cynatnite]

12. Did you get this information from going to boot camp? n/t

[sando]

13. I got it from many friends

Who were inducted into the Army for service in Nam. There is also plenty of information available regarding behaviorial conditioning and military training. I don't need to experience a thing to know what it is. What many people have failed to realize is that some of the vets we saw return from their stint in the military did not see combat and still came out fubar'd. Why do you think that is?

[cynatnite]

14. Well, since YOU've never been through basic...

Here's how it is...

The army is not full of brainwashed soldiers who jump at the bark of any order.

I spent four years active duty and another four in the reserves. My husband spent three years active and is a veteran of Panama and Gulf War I. I have two uncles who served in Vietnam. Another who was in Bosnia and the Gulf. There is a lot more. My family has served for generations.

The fact of the matter is when a person goes into the military and begins basic training, they are not only taught to work as a unit, they are also trained to think independently and to perform tasks to fight and to survive if at all possible. Basic training isn't for everyone and 90% of it mental. It's a mental endurance and understanding how the military thinks. Brainwashing, indoctrination...whatever word you choose to use to benefit your stance...is so far off base.

Most people in the military have brains and do think for themselves. It always amazes me the lack of understanding that some have concerning the military especially in the lower ranks. Many of the ones I worked with were so far liberal that it amazed me they were able to rectify their beliefs and still maintain their careers at the same time. They believed in what they were doing and felt that serving their country(with all it's faults) is a good within itself.

While Lyndie England should and will pay for her crimes, she shouldn't be one of the few enlisted who do. The officers and policy-makers have been given a free pass and this kind of behavior will continue.

Keep this in mind. I joined the army back in '86. Even then, we were made very aware of what lawful orders were and when not to follow them. We were well educated on the subject starting in basic training. Soldiers can refuse to follow lawful orders. Lyndie England followed an unlawful order and she should pay the price for it as should others.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. thanks for your input re: your experiences. Question:

Why do you think the real perps (the leadership) will walk? I agree with you, but I am interested in your perpective.

[cynatnite]

19. It's all who you know...

Passing the buck is fairly easy in the military and if you know the right people, it can be done in such a way as to make the lowest on the totem pole pay the price. It's all politics, basically.

Most of the officers I knew, except for a few, were very RW and from fairly well-to-do families who knew a lot of people. Name-dropping wasn't uncommon.

Fortunately, it's not all that way and some decent people do manage to move up in the ranks. I wish it was more common, though. I think we'd have a better military than what we have now.

[sando]

21. And of course you served under Bush Jr?

I've heard many Viet Nam vets say time again the same kind of thing that happened in Iraq also happened in Nam. As for the Gulf War we were hardly on the ground long enough to know what kind of orders would be coming down from the Pentagon. I'm really tired of the military defending the military. Perhaps if more soliders were willing to disobey direct orders there wouldn't be boots on the ground in countries where we have no business being except to defend the corporate interests of multi-national corps. It never ceases to amaze me how many people sit and justify the unjustifiable both military and non-military. BTW my family has served as most people my age had fathers, serving in the South Pacific, Europe, Africa to stop fascism. My dad came back from the South Pacific, his cousin did not come back from Normandy.

So here is my question, if a superior officer issues you a direct order in wartime conditions and you don't obey aren't the ramifications of that usually court martial especially when your Commander in Chief is GWB and Rummy?

[cynatnite]

26. I served partly under raygun and daddy bush, both

It's a complex issue. When it comes to whether or not to follow orders, the soldier has to make that decision. The younger and more inexperienced they are, depending on how much knowledge they have on unlawful orders, makes it more difficult.

Most everyone I knew were very well aware of unlawful orders. If I refused what I considered to be an unlawful order I would probably be court martialed. If it's proven to be unlawful and I was justified for not doing so, everything would be dropped and it would be over.

The military is supposed to be apolitical. It has to be that way so they will not take sides in politics which could have a devastating effect on this country. I want it apolitical. It doesn't justify the RW and neocon's using them for political gain. That's how I see it. They don't care about the military except to use them for their own selfish means.

My wish is for the military to not be at the beck and call of the Pres. I understand why for emergency deployments, but we have seen how it's been abused. The military should never be deployed unless war is declared by Congress and the Senate. Let me make this clear. War has to be declared and not the permission slip to wage war as was done before the invasion.

[sando]

28. I agree totally with your wish

That the military not be at the beck and call of the President. My personal opinion is that this little incursion into Iraq was for two purposes so that little Bush could avenge the assissination attempt by Hussein on his daddy, the other reason of course is to secure the US position for acquiring oil. I completely agree with your asssessment of the RW using our troops for their own greed and personal attainment of wealth or the protecting of their business interests in foreign coutries which is yet again a disasterous misuse of the lives of our greatest treasure our children.

And I completely agree with you that war must be declared by Congress, it's one of the areas where the Constitution has been ignored to the detriment of the American people. Have you ever heard of General Smedley Butler? http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/racket.html

I hope you to understand that my initial criticism was about the techniques that are used to affect certain behaviors. I happen to believe the average human being is not wired to kill and therefore must be conditioned in some way to do so. And with that conditioning there will be some who will at some point be uanble to choose the appropriate behavior and will blindly follow orders as the Nazis did when the orders for the Final Solution came from the very top leadership.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. Guilty of obeying unlawful orders, of course.

The only way she could become more of a scapegoat would require her to grow udders and horns.

[jmowreader]

18. Guilty of handing Iraq to the Muslim fundamentalists

I don't care what your opinion on the war is.

I don't care if you think the war is a wonderful thing and we should all support it.

I don't care if you think, as I do, that the war was a terrible mistake we never should have made.

I know that you will have to agree that the Islamicists won this war the second the photo of Lynndie England pointing at those guys' dicks and laughing about them with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth became public.

After that picture hit, forget about instilling our version of women's rights, individual freedom, religious freedom or any other American value into the Iraqi people. Because while our people are working so hard to sell the wonders of democracy to them, one of their people will put up that picture of Lynndie pointing at three Muslims' dicks and say something like "who cares what the Americans want? This is what they think of us."

We are all Lynndie England.

I don't want to be Lynndie England.

I'm better than that. So are you. So are most Americans.

Throw fucking Lynndie England in jail until she rots, and put all the other Abu Ghraib staff, General Sanchez, General Karpinsky, and the whole fucking Bush administration in the same cell block. Show the world that we're better than that.

[sando]

22. Well said

That is exactly right. All that has been done in Iraq has been done in the name of every American whether we wanted it or not.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. with two horrific results

first, our soldiers are now at risk of torture when captured.
It took 100 yrs of warfare and negotiations to come up with all of the Genevas. It took one legal memo and a presidential order to destroy it.

second, our reputation as a democracy, fair, legal and effective is shattered beyond repair. Unless and until we put those in power behind bars and make them pay for their wrongs, no one will ever believe, trust or rely on the US ever again.

By those in charge, I suggest the following list of culprits who should see the outside day light 2hrs a day, with chains, and behind bars:

Don Rumsfeld
Alberto Gonzales
John Ashcroft
Condi Rice
John Boyton
Dick Cheney
Paul Wolfowitz
Dougie Feith
George Bush

I know I missed a few.

[sando]

27. Here are a few more to add to your list

Colin Powell
Richard Perl
Andrew Card
Karl Rove
Sen. Frist
Tom DeLay
Dennis Hastert
General Myers
The members of the Senate Judciary Committee
The rest of Bush's cabinet.
Any and all members of the government who had knowledge of what was being done and failed to act to stop it.

And the end result should be an international tribunal modelled on the Nuremburg Trial.

[leftofthedial]

24. guilty of being the poor white trash expendable scapegoat

AND guilty of inhumane treatement of prisioners

[bluedawg12]

25. Being a useful idiot. n/t