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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:26 AM
Original message
On Civil Disobedience
{1} "You spoke of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. ....But as I continued to think about the matter I gradually gained a bit of satisfaction from being considered an extremist. Was not Jesus an extremist in love -- 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you.' Was not Amos an extremist for justice -- 'Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.' ... Was not John Bunyan an extremist -- 'I will stay in jail until the end of my days before I make a butchery of my conscience.' .... Was not Thomas Jefferson an extremist -- 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.' So the question is not whether we will be extremists but what kind of extremists we will be. .... after all, maybe the South, the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists."
-- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Letter from Birmingham City Jail.

Yesterday, withi a matter of hours, a jury returned its verdict in the case of the St. Patrick's Four at the federal courthouse in Binghamton, NY, and Cindy Sheehan was arrested outside of the White House in Washington DC. As the opposition to the war in Iraq grows, there will be an increase in acts of civil disobedience to focus the nation's attention on the horrors of a war that many view as the greatest failure in American foreign policy. The tone of many of the discussions about civil disobedience, ranging from those on Fox News to the Democratic Underground, indicate that there is a general lack of awareness of what civil disobedience is, including its history in our country, and its goals. This essay will attempt to explain what civil disobedience is, when it is used, and what its goals are.

Throughout history, we find that there are three ways that people respond to oppression. The first is through acquiescence. People surrender their sense of self-worth, and accept abuse and mistreatment from their oppressors. The second response is one of violence, in which oppressed peoples react with anger and hatred. The third method is nonviolent resistance, as practiced by Mohandas K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Civil disobedience is one tactic used in campaigns of nonviolent resistance. It has, at times, been used in campaigns that do not remain nonviolent. The Boston Tea Party was an example of civil disobedience. Those who are opposed to those engaged in the civil disobedience will often attempt to discredit these actions by calling them extreme, irresponsible, un-American, and dangeous.

{2} "Before the victory is won some may have to get scarred up, but we shall overcome. Before the victory of brotherhood is achieved, some will maybe face physical death, but we shall overcome. Before this victory is won, some will lose jobs, some will be called communists and reds, merely because they believe in brotherhood, some will be dismissed as dangerous rabblerousers and agitators merely because they are standing up for what is right, but we shall overcome. That is the basis of this movement, and as I like to say, there is something in this universe that justifies Carlyle in saying no lie can live forever. We shall overcome because there is something in this universe which justifies William Cullen Bryant in saying truth crushed to earth will rise again."
-- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Love, Law, and Civil Disobedience.

There are numerous types of nonviolent direct action which can be used to oppose oppression. Not all of these are civil disobedience, even though they involve violating the law of the land, and require as much commitment and bravery as true civil disobedience. A wonderful example would be the "underground railroad" in which people, often Quakers, helped escaped slaves journey from the deep south to Canada. There are similar activities today, with dedicated people helping people escape from countries in Central America, where their lives were in danger from oppressive regimes. These brave nonviolent actions recognize that, as King taught, everything done in Nazi Germany was "legal."

"It was illegal to aid and comfort a Jew in the days of Hitler's Germany," he noted in his 11-16-61 address to the annual conference of the Fellowship of the Concerned. "But I believe that if I had the same attitude then as I have now, I would publicly aid and comfort my Jewish brothers in Germany if Hitler were alive today and calling this an illegal process." That is what distinguishes civil disobedience from other nonviolent resistance: it is done publicly.

King recognized that there were two types of laws: just laws and unjust laws. As a rule, he noted that everyone has a responsibility to obey just laws, which are intended and applied in such a way as to promote order and equality in our society. King also recognbized that just laws can be applied unjustly. The best example would be the laws requiring people to get a permit to hold a public demonstration to air their grievances against their elected officials: in the south, King's people were at times denied the permits they were entitled to, and hence they violated the "just law" by demonstrating illegally.

There are also unjust laws, which King taught us that we have a moral obligation to disobey. Unlike a just law, the unjust laws are made to discourage order and to deny equality. Unjust laws benefit one group at the expense of another. King used the example of a traffic light. When applied to all, it is helpful, and promotes order and safety. If a traffic light were to be used to stop one ethnic group on the road to progress, it is unjust. A civil disobedience campaign would have people openly defy that law, recognizing that they will be ticketed, fined, and possible sent to jail for violating the law. Cindy Sheehan was arrested for this type of action yesterday.

King also recognized that there are times when a crisis arises, when an ambulance or firetruck must put on its flashing lights and sirens, and run the red lights of society. And that is what the St. Patrick's Four did when they protested the Bush administration's plans for aggression in Iraq.

This morning on Fox News, "guest" Bill O'Reilly was asked by a caller about Cindy Sheehan's smiling when she was arrested yesterday. Likewise, the calm and at-peace nature of the St. Patrick's Four outrages many of their critics. Yet Gandhi and King taught that civil disobedience must be accomplished with the law broken openly, lovingly, and with the penalty readily accepted. O'Reilly, of course, could not fathom a connection between Sheehan's Texas vigil and her act of civil disobedience.

{3} "Over the past two years, as I have moved to break the betrayal of my own silences and to speak to the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. .... And when I hear them, though I often understand the source of their concern, I am nevertheless greatly saddened, for such questions mean that the inquirers have not really known me, my commitment or my calling. Indeed, their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live."
-- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; A Time to Break Silence (Beyong Vietnam).

King had known that "the hangman of the 1950s 'cold war' was McCarthyism." He knew the price that a brave few paid for challenging the system then. He knew that he would be attacked by his enemies when, a year to the day before his death, he bravely delivered the greatest of American speeches, in which he connected racism in America and the war in Vietnam. As intelligent as King was, he had to have known what the result of that speech would be, yet he accepted that openly and lovingly.

Today, our nation honors King with a holiday. Even President Bush attempts to capitalize on King's memory, by placing a wreath on his grave. Yet surely, were King alive today, he would be trying to convince Bush of the spiritual emptiness and outright evil of his policy in Iraq. King would be advocating nonviolent resistance to the war, and engaged in campaigns of civil disobedience. He would be arrested and jailed for his opposition to the war. He would be smiling with Cindy Sheehan. He would be tried under the Patriot Act for conspiracy, along with the St. Patrick's Four. Indeed, Bush's wreath is the crown of thorns, even if the president is unconscious of that symbolism.

"Everyone loves the dead. Once you die, you got it made for life," a rock musician once said. It's too easy to love the Martin Luther King that is being placed on a stained glass window, rather than the living Martin, who was found marching in the streets and praying in jail. "I come not to bring peace, but a sword," said Jesus.

Those who engage in acts of civil disobedience upset those who are comfortable in acquiescence. "But Cindy was smiling. Would her son be proud?" "Those Catholic Workers spilled human blood. They discredit the anti-war movement."

Many democrats, when looking at Gandhi today, consider him to have been naive. Yet, in his day, those who opposed him saw him as just the opposite. King was considered a tool of communists. Even Thoreau, the author of "Walden" and "Civil Disobedience," was considered threatening in his day, because he also defended the Harpers Ferry raid in "A Plea for John Brown."

Those who participate in the campaigns of civil disobedience, in opposing the Bush administration's war policies, has to expect to be arrested, tried, and convicted. They must be aware that those who oppose their actions will distort their motives and their actions, with all of the irrational anger that Bill O'Reilly is paid to display. And they need to understand that even those who should be supporting them will often be confused and turn on them. It is part of the process. But it is not the end of the process.


{4} "My personal trials have also taught me the value of unmerited suffering. ....Recognizing the necessity of suffering I have tried to make it a virtue. If only to save myself from bitterness, I have attempted to see my personal ordeals as an opportunity to transform myself and heal the people involved in the tragic situation which now obtains. I have lived these last few years with the conviction that unearned suffering is redemptive."
-- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Suffering and Faith

In the first few days of the St. Patrick's Four trial, the police used their orange "crime scene" tape to keep the anti-war and the pro-war demonstrators separate. There was even a taped off space between the two groups, which was called the DMZ, or demilitarized zone. In those first few days, there was virtually no communication between the "opposing" sides.

Yet by the end of the week, each side was showing the other a mutual respect that included smiles, handshakes, and even embraces. Each side wants "the best" for this country. Each side believes it is showing the greatest support for the troops. Both sides want the war to end. This is the transforming power that King spoke of. The brave actions of Cindy Sheehan and of the St. Patrick's Four will not end the war in Iraq. But they may help transform the national discussion in a manner that forces the government to end their immoral war.

Yesterday's events should give us hope for the future. King knew the value of hope. I will end with a poem that an angry young man left for Martin one day. This young man was among those who had looked at Martin's nonviolent campaign as a sign of weakness, until he had the opportunity to be in the same room with King. He wrote the following three lines on a card which he left on Martin's desk early one morning.

"I sought my soul, but my soul I could not see,
I sought God, but he eluded me,
I sought my brother, and I found all three."
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The Witch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. brilliant, thought-provoking. rec'd.
well done.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. I think that
while there is a bit of a struggle being waged on DU:GD right now, that people are able to name-calling or attempts to create a pecking order based on who has done more than whom, and other nonsense that can only divide people.

We are at a strange time in history. It is easy to get upset, impatient, angry, insulted, and to see the faults in others that we have difficulty in seeing in ourselves. I struggle with this everyday. But we do not have the luxury of wasting time and energy in such a foolish way. Not now.

Because of that, I am trying to focus on those things that can unite us, and help us to move forward. And so it means a lot to me to have people like you, who I recognize as adding insight and reason to the discussions on DU, take the time to read my long posts, and to get the gist of what I am saying. Thank you.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wow - very well written. Required reading IMHO.
...lest we forget the lessons of history...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
43. I am pleased
by the number of people who have read this .... though I kind of wish it could be "required reading"!!!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Glad You Brought Up
the Cindy Sheehan smile. Too many idiots on the tube and in the papers have been intimating it meant the CD was a joke to her. There are also others who don't recognize that what she's doing is a continuum of what has gone before when governments have acted in an egregious manner.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Perhaps she was
nervous or self-conscious. Those who rant about her have no idea the amount of bravery that it requires to get arrested. I've gained respect for her, actually. Those saying she is simply looking for attention don't get it: she could hang out in the tv studio and get all the camera time she wants. This is taking a huge step forward. Bill O'Reilly couldn't buy the spine it takes to do what that woman is doing.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. What a wonderful OP, my dear friend.
:applause: Of course I have nominated it. Thanks for the reminders. :hug:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Hello, merh!
Hoping that all is well with you and yours. I'm also looking forward to when you get settled in enough that you are able to be back on DU as often as you once were.

I remember way back, when I first joined in the discussions on DU. There was a thread about how powerful Bush and Cheney were. I remember saying that only truth is strong, and that we all have to decide for ourselves who is telling the truth -- either Bush or King -- because only one of them is telling the truth. The other is invested in falsehoods.

I think that Martin's message is very important today. Even here on DU, this same forum that I hope trusts in Martin more than George. Perhaps some of the anger and hostility being expressed on a number of the current threads could be avoided if we invested in Martin's dream.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. wow! Thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. Thanks. n/t
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Just keep posting!
I MEAN IT!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I hope to.
I appreciate that you enjoy what I have to say.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. kick
thank you, as always, for your tireless and articulate work in helping to educate todays resisters with an excellent sense of our common history :toast:

:loveya:

peace
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thank you.
That always looks like Guinness in those glasses being toasted. Puts me in a better mood, just looking at it.

One of the other things that brought a smile to my face, though in a very different way, was a lady on tv commenting about Cindy Sheehan, "Everyone knows she's upset about her son getting killed. How will this help?" The goodness of the truth has not yet taken root in her young mind. There are some lessons that apparently have to be learned, over and over, by each generation.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
44. kick
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast::toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

wish i could buy you a few real ones in person :hi:

peace
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. wow-- awesome essay....
Thank you so much for writing this and posting it here!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. everyone needs to read all the way to the end -- last 2 paragraphs
every action i've ever participated in has a built-in fear/attraction to the counters. there's always a sense that "don't talk to them, you'll just egg them on." or worse "that's how bad things happen."

well, it's how good things happen too and you never know until you talk.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree - every last word
...
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you for this very thoughtful post
------------------------------------------------------------------
Peace Rally SUPER THREAD:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4870788

Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time:
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. MLK Jr.: Six Principles Of Nonviolence
from the Glossary Of Nonviolence (worth reading)

http://www.thekingcenter.org/prog/non/glossary.html

SIX PRINCIPLES OF NONVIOLENCE - Fundamental tenets of Dr. King’s philosophy of nonviolence described in his first book, Stride Toward Freedom. The six principles include:

(1.) Nonviolence is not passive, but requires courage;

(2.) Nonviolence seeks reconciliation, not defeat of an adversary;

(3.) Nonviolent action is directed at eliminating evil, not destroying an evil-doer;

(4.) A willingness to accept suffering for the cause, if necessary, but never to inflict it;

(5.) A rejection of hatred, animosity or violence of the spirit, as well as refusal to commit physical violence; and

(6.) Faith that justice will prevail.

SIX STEPS OF NONVIOLENT SOCIAL CHANGE - A sequential process of nonviolent conflict-resolution and social change based on Dr. King’s teachings. The Six Steps of Nonviolence developed by The King Center include:

(1.) Information gathering and research to get the facts straight;

(2.) Education of adversaries and the public about the facts of the dispute;

(3.) Personal Commitment to nonviolent attitudes and action;

(4.) Negotiation with adversary in a spirit of goodwill to correct injustice;

(5.)Nonviolent direct action, such as marches, boycotts, mass demonstrations, picketing, sit-ins etc., to help persuade or compel adversary to work toward dispute-resolution;

(6.) Reconciliation of adversaries in a win-win outcome in establishing a sense of community.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks for those.
Very important for people to study the teachings of King at this time.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you for such an inspirational post.
I believe yesterday's events will be historical.

On Sunday, I was fortunate enough to hear Amy Goodman speak at the Convention Center in DC. One of the things she discussed at length was the similarities between Cindy Sheehan and Rosa Parks, both being outspoken activists long before they were finally recognized by the media.

Both of these brave women were ignored by the elite until one incident happened, Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of a bus and Cindy Sheehan camping in the Crawford ditch demanding answers from the President.

I am glad you addressed the history of civil disobedience. Yesterday, I hardly recognized this place.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. "Mighty Times:
The Legacy of Rosa Parks" is a wonderful film, produced and distributed by the Southern Poverty Law Center. My hope is that more and more people -- including DUers -- will make sure that school children in their community see this film, and others like it. We cannot afford to have generations of Americans finding the images and values of Rosa Parks and Cindy Sheehan foreign and strange. We must work for the day when the madness of Dick Cheney seems an odd curiosity, and one that holds no threat.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. 16 responses, 16 nominations!
that makes me feel immensely hopeful!

the time is here, I believe
thank you!
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. thanks, where would we be without civil disobedience?
It is the voice of common sense many times. We need it again to fight those corporations as WalMart.

pic of Dorothy Day, a great activist

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. that poem at the end is perfect!
Thank you H2OMan for helping to shed light on what needs to be done now in this country if we ever hope to see justice and truth.

Thank you also for more Dr. King quotes. Every one is a treasure!

I was in DC this past weekend with my boys and husband. What a wonderful experience for us all. I wanted to let you know that I saw two different groups with signs about the St. Patrick's four and I thought of you. :)

peace,
lc
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Thank you.
As I read some of the posts on DU, including some that are on the pro-Cindy and anti-war threads, I realize that there has to be a lot more effort put into understanding what nonviolent resistance really is .... and what it is not. It takes time and patience. It is unfortunate that some will view it in terms of competition, rather than cooperation. Yet I am confident that as the movement begins to take greater form, a different set of values may take hold.

"I would like to say the first point or the first principle in the movement is the idea that the means must be as pure as the end. This movement is based on the philosophy that the ends and means must cohere. Now this has been one of the long struggles in history, the whole idea of means and ends. Great philosophers have grappled with it, and sometimes they have emerged with the idea, from Machiavelli on down, that the end justifies the means. There is a great system of thought in our world today, known as communism. And I think that with all of the weakness and tragedies of communism, we find its greatest tragedy right here, that it goes under the philosophy that the ends justify the means that are used in the process. So we can read or we can hear the Lenins say that lying, deceit, or violence, that many of these things justify the ends of a classless society.

"This is where the student movement and the nonviolent movement that is taking place in our nation would break with communism and any other system that would argue that the ends justify the means. For in the long run, we must see that the end represents the means in process and the ideal in the making. In other words, we cannot believe, or we cannot go with the idea that the end justifies the means because the end is preexistent in the means. So the idea of nonviolent resistance, the philosophy of nonviolent resistance, is the philosophy which says the means must be as pure as the end, that in the long run of history, immoral destructive means cannot bring about moral and constructive ends." (King; Love, Law, and Civil Disobedience.)

I think that fits with the St. Patrick's Four, Cindy Sheehan's arrest, and even, in an interesting way, answers some of the concerns expressed about parts of the weekend's protest in Washington. Nonviolent protest isn't about competition to see who has bigger press conferences, or organizes bigger rallies, or other similar measures. It's about a journey towards truth. I'm glad that your family made that journey.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Rove
a good example of "the end justify the means" man. Then there is Cheney, Rumsfeld, all the neos and of course Chalabi with his beloved Curveball. And they're just the most recent example, history is littered with them standing above the corpses that were the means.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
21. H2Oman Brilliant as usual, A MUST read ,Recommended
{2} "Before the victory is won some may have to get scarred up, but we shall overcome. Before the victory of brotherhood is achieved, some will maybe face physical death, but we shall overcome. Before this victory is won, some will lose jobs, some will be called communists and reds, merely because they believe in brotherhood, some will be dismissed as dangerous rabblerousers and agitators merely because they are standing up for what is right, but we shall overcome. That is the basis of this movement, and as I like to say, there is something in this universe that justifies Carlyle in saying no lie can live forever. We shall overcome because there is something in this universe which justifies William Cullen Bryant in saying truth crushed to earth will rise again."
-- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Love, Law, and Civil Disobedience.


We Shall Overcome

Lets Roll.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thank you,
I wish I could marshal the words and lead them to that place where you can understand my meaning as completely as I understood your message. Thank you.
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. A tearful Thank you.
I was a child, but I remember.
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buzzsaw_23 Donating Member (631 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. Brilliant
The only thing that brings the powers to their knees is large scale civil action of some sort. Historically it is all that has ever worked. Petition writing, voicing your dissent and even voting while well-intentioned do not bring about real change an unjust system.

Civil disobedience says "No more" and can turn the tide against empire like nothing else.

nominated :toast:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. In Binghamton
it changed minds. It didn't make the pro-Bush forces drop their values, or burn their flags. But it opened their eyes. It allowed them to hear what the anti-war people were saying. And, to be fair, a number of the anti-war people seemed to have a greater appreciation for the other side. Add to this that the police were very decent to everyone there, and helpful in every way possible. A number of them expressed their hopes the American participation in the war will end, and the troops will be brought home.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks H2O Man.
I am a firm believer in sorting out the just and unjust laws. There are times that the unjust laws have to be ignored to make changes for the better.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. My privilege to give this yet another recommendation. This is so vitally
important.

Thank you, H2O Man. Again. :patriot:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Thanks.
I was hoping it would be of interest to people here, and maybe lead to a discussion of why it is important to, at very least, keep an open mind about what people like Cindy Sheehan and the St. Patrick's Four are doing.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Unmerited Suffering Into Redemptive Suffering.. Cindy Is Bemused
The evolution of Cindy's suffering is what is making her so dangerous to the NeoCons. She has gone beyond being a mother who has lost a son to a symbol standing up against all that is wrong, unfair, unjust, greedy, and immoral. She and Casey have become metaphors for JUSTICE. When MLK made the speech where he equated racism in America and the Vietnam war he knew (as you stated H20 Man) that this was indeed a dangerous comparison to speak OPENLY about. He was connecting dots and in doing so he was giving people a map. A map for change, instructions on how to turn the car in a different direction. They killed him for providing those directions.

Cindy is just beginning her journey and I marvel at how far she has come so quickly. How she has brought so many to her side so effectively. When she was arrested I saw a look on her face that I understand. The best word to describe it is bemused. Not amused, she was not laughing. She was bewildered and weary. Think of it as her facial expression saying "they know not what they do but they are gonna do it anyway." I think she was preoccupied and lost in thought. And once again I think she is so weary but she gonna go on. For me the expression was perfect and deeply touching and profound.

Just like Martin Cindy is crossing some hard and nasty dark lines. We all need to pay very close attention. Thank you H20 you are a wonderful teacher and friend. I learn and grow every time you contribute your incredible wisdom. Salaam ale kum.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. From "True to His Words"
an article in the April 13, 1992 edition of Sports Illustrated, the last paragraph reads:

"It is now more than 25 years since Carter was arrested in Patterson, yet whenever he speaks, he tells of a tale that will not let him go. 'It is not finished,' he says. 'I still feel the loneliness. I still feel the pain. I feel it now. I feel everything. The day you get out of prison is the day your sentence begins.'"

For those who have not had tragic events in their lives, such as a Rubin or a Cindy, those words may sound strange. But to someone who has been imprisoned by events in their life -- and I know that you KNOW what I am saying here -- those words make absolute sense.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Big FAT Tears My Friend
Good Morning. I just baked four loaves of zucchini bread wish I could share some with you. Honey butter and tea w/ cream on the side!
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thank you.
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buzzsaw_23 Donating Member (631 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. kick
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
35. Kick. n/t
:kick:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Morning Kick n/t
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
38. once again, thank you waterman!. . . . n/t
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