A couple of questions for you

[WilliamPitt]

I've been reading a lot of criticism here of Cindy Sheehan, and of ANSWER. I'm wondering how many of you have met Cindy, talked with her, worked with her, watched her deal with 200 reporters asking questions about every topic imaginable, can actually call her a friend? Could she even pick you out of a lineup? Were you in Texas with her, in the heat and the rain with the shotguns going off?

I'm wondering how many of you have gotten 300,000 - 500,000 people to show up in one place at the same time, how many of you have managed the ridiculous process of coalition-building between two dozen Left-wing groups that all think their issue is the ultimate issue, how many of you have done the work to make them all happy so they all advertise for your march and get it of the ground, how many of you have dealt with a permitting process in DC that wends its way through have a dozen police agencies and bureaucracies.

I don't like ANSWERs politics, personally, and I do wish the focus at their rallies was more...well...focused. But I also know you don't get a half million people into one city to protest without making alliances with everyone under the sun. I know you don't make those alliances without letting those groups rock the mike for a bit.

I can't begin to imaging why some here have decided to take issue with Cindy Sheehan and her activism and some so-called "insensitive" remarks. But I have a challenge for you. Become a top-tier activist pretty much overnight and with no experience to help you along. Figure out a series of actions that bring attention to your cause in ways that have not happened in years. Deal with the threats, the attacks, the travelling, the logistics, the sleeping on cots and on the floor. Do all that while giving a dozen interviews a day because the press asks for them, and never once make a slip of the tongue or say the wrong thing. Oh, yeah, and bury your child.

How many of you have organized a protest?

Worked for an activist organization beyond the volunteer level?

Done significant coalition-building?

Been required to deal regularly with the press, and have your words reported in newspapers and on radio/TV?

Been arrested for your beliefs?

How many of you are really in the business?

My friend Cindy Sheehan has done more in the last several weeks to get Bush out and hold him accountable than everyone on DU combined and multiplied by ten. ANSWER threw together the largest street protest in recent memory.

There's a lot of sideline-yapping and couch-potato quarterbacking going on here. That's fine. That's what happens here. But I hope a few of you who are doing it will someday have the sense to be embarrassed by yourselves. Opinions are like that little hole the poop comes out of. Cindy works where the rubber meets the road, as does ANSWER. Pity more of you don't know where that place is. You might talk less, and do more.

/rant

[Zomby Woof]

1. WHOMP!

:thumbsup:

[whatever4]

16. And going through a divorce as well

It's enough to kill some people all on it's own, losing a child and then a marriage.

That sure was great, rant or not, I agree, whomp!

[ruggerson]

85. delete, see post below

[WilliamPitt]

88. You mean when I called bullshit?

Kept it short and sweet. Your post didn't deserve much beyond that.

Congrats for serving where you are needed. Glad to hear it. You're still wrong.

[moddemny]

188. First problem with the post,

....... you are lumping the anti-ANSWER folks as being anti-cindy. I haven't personally seen the anti-cindy thread so I am not sure what everyone is referring too. I have a problem with ANSWER not cindy.

I outlined my feelings about ANSWER in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4895425

There are a lot of people in this country who came from former Communist countries, can you understand it's a matter of principle for many of these people not to march with Communists? ANSWER alienates a large demographic of potential supporters. You think getting arrested at a protest is a big deal? What about the 200,000 Bosnians that were massacred in the 90's? Have you ever met a person who lived through the siege of Sarajevo? I have. And now you want those people to march with a group that wants Slobodan Milosevic free? Do you even realize what you asking? You seem like a smart guy Mr. Pitt, have you read some of the thrust of the complaints against ANSWER? Why do people forget a major part of the history of the 20th century?

People who came here to escape from Communism don't need a lecture on what it's like to live under tyranny or how to be committed to a cause. They faced a real police state, real tanks, real guns and risked their lives over and over.

You can talk about numbers all you want, do you realize how many you are going to lose because of the ANSWER bullshit? They'll come once and when they find out about ANSWER's positions they probably won't come back. Going to protest one criminal regime with a group that supports regimes that are worse is a hypocrisy many people can't bear.

United for peace can do it, you don't need ANSWER.

[displacedtexan]

2. Cindy Sheehan is just a person. A mother. Not a professional...

activist.

No, she's not "polished."

That's why her sincerity shines through the mud slung at her from all directions.

GAWD forbid she should be able to laugh or smile once in a while.

She applauded us Billionaires For Bush and gave us the thumbs up as she marched past.

She's just a person.

But for Cindy, we wouldn't be focusing on action like we are now.

[stlsaxman]

151. Cindy is as much a "professional activist" as Rosa Parks was when she was

told to give up her seat on the bus and said no.

Cindy simply asked "why?" and a movement started.

[PatriotMom]

196. Three cheers perfect answer

Yes she has a simple message, it makes it easy to follow her if you agree with her message, which I do. She does not complicate the issues and will not allow anyone else to cause her to complicate it either. She has given me hope I have not felt for this country for most of my life, and I am no kid.

[Mutley]

3. You said it better than I've been able to in the last few days.

Great job!

[Talismom]

4. I should have known you would have come through!

I totally agree with your post! I'm floored by Ms. Sheehan's gutsy contributions to the anti-war effort and I attended the DC rally because to express my support for United for Peace and Justice.

I don't know a lot about ANSWER and, really, I just don't care much about the controversy. I care much more about the democrats ability to work together toward recapturing this country from the crime syndicate that has taken it over. Anything that would divide us and lessen our effectiveness is something that I will very quickly dump and ignore.

Democrats need to keep their eyes on the prize!

:rant:

[Wind Dancer]

98. Well said, Talismom!

I support United for Peace and Justice and think they did a great job organizing this rally. ANSWER does not represent many of us and is being used to "divide and conquer" the anti-war movement. Same ole shit, different war.

It was great meeting you on Saturday, we will not stop until this illegal war is over and our troops are home.

:hi:

[Talismom]

117. ...and every vote is counted and the constitution, rather than neocon

cronyism, is the basis by which the country is run!

The pleasure was truly mine FrustratedDeminNC!

:toast: :patriot:

[Vincardog]

5. Recommended Will as always belongs on the Greatest page

[Arkansas Granny]

6. Well said.

[Beetwasher]

7. Nahh, It's Much Easier To Just Whine

Than to really do anything constructive.

[JDPriestly]

8. I'm offended by what "some people" say Cindy has said

about Israel because I personally support Israel very strongly. I suspect that the "some people" are misrepresenting what Cindy thinks and says. It would be helpful if Cindy spoke with and listened to some supporters of Israel who have their historical facts straight. Then she could make a statement that could really contribute to peace and stability in that area. I think that the real point of her remarks on Israel is that there be peace and stability in the area around Israel, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. If so, she agrees with every thoughtful person who has any opinion about the Israel/Palestine issue including most of us who are pro-Israel. Anyway, that is my only problem with Cindy.

As for ANSWER, the one person I spoke to who actually went to the demonstration on Saturday said it was a great experience. She did not hear the speeches. She just marched and loved it.

[me b zola]

9. Beautifully said. nominated

:applause:

[rainy]

10. Cindy is the face of the anti-war protest. She is causing us to get

media coverage. She is untouchable for criticism because she "wears the ring" so to speak, which allows her to do what she does.
About ANSWER, I am so sick of their screaming and ranting on the mikes.

This does nothing for the anti-war movement and after watching at least 3 of the DC protests these people are turning people off and making us look like freaks. I believe they have legit points to make but shouldn't organize an ANTI-WAR protest and then make it about them and not the people who show up.

[WilliamPitt]

11. "I am so sick of their screaming and ranting on the mikes"

I repeat: Figure out a way to get 500,000 people in one place by coalition-building WITHOUT having those coalitions getting a chance to talk about their issues.

You will fail.

[rainy]

20. Why is it always ANSWER that organizes the protests for DC?

Can't another group like Code Pink decide on the agenda? These people are on the fringe how is it that they have so much money to organize this event? Guess I need to do some Google research huh?
Still, the screaming annoyed me and I had told my father to tune in to see the great speeches and all he saw was THEM. He was not impressed.

[BrklynLiberal]

24. Maybe he tuned into a station that intentionally focused on THEM in order

to intentionally make the antiwar movement look bad????
If he watched on FSTV or LINKTV, or listened to DemocracyNow! or Laura Flanders or AirAmerica or anyone who actually went to the march, he would have gotten a much more accurate version of what really happened.

Ater all that has gone on in the past 6 years how can you trust the mainstream media to give you a true picture of what is happening?

[rainy]

32. It was C-span and yes it was badly focused just on the speeches

and nothing of the march which many here were complaining about at the time because we wanted to see the march.

[Kevin Spidel]

160. because they are the first to get the permits...

always. wierd, i know. but truthful.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. because they are good at it?

Because nobody else does it? Actually both UPJ and ANSWER staged what were technically independent rallies and marches on saturday, although in reality it became one march.

It is always ANSWER because it is always ANSWER: they are the ones who have been there since 2001 organizing, organizing, organizing. As Will said: if you can do better, do it.

[Old Mouse]

29. you said a mouthful

I'm afraid it's prophetic.

[geomon666]

225. And that's what's wrong with the anti-war movement.

That we have to bring in communists and anti-semites and the like in to rally people against an illegal war is absolutely rediculous. I mean what's next, are they going to bring in the neo nazis? Might get a few more thousand so I don't want to give them any more ideas.

This invasion should be enough of a reason to rally everybody, but it's not and that, despite the wonderful march and rally, is really disheartening.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. making us look like freaks

Well despite the ranting at the mikes, the crowds just keep growing and growing as the dissatisfaction with this war rises.

The republicans are smearing a woman who made the kind of sacrifice that should render her untouchable and yet the insulting and slandering of Cindy Sheehan is carried out with impunity.

It's not ANSWER that's the problem. It's that we are being bullied into believing the lie that we must be above reproach, measured, tactful, not too lefty or extreme or shrill or angry or accusatory....while the Right wears purple heart bandaids to mock the service of a Vietnam vet who served and they stayed home with other priorities and cysts.

[sniffa]

108. good post

and spot on. :thumbsup:

[Carni]

120. Joe blow sitting down to watch TV wouldn't know answer if they bit him...

In the ass...all he or she sees is a sound bite *woman lost her son to Iraq-Pres won't talk to her because he's a chicken shit*

You have to fling a lot of shit to get media coverage and the squeaky wheel gets the grease--JMO

[TankLV]

180. A former NAZI is lauded as a great pope, but they slander this courageous

woman.

Go figure.

[Gnostic]

197. If you refer to JP2

You are wrong.

[Pacifist Patriot]

204. The reference is to the current pope.

[Gnostic]

207. Link?

Any additional info on this? I've not heard this before. Thanks.

[Pacifist Patriot]

216. I don't know how good these links are...

I'm doing a quick google before I sprint out the door.

http://atheism.about.com/od/benedictxvi/i/RatzingerNazi.htm

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050421-040257-2592r.htm


It's a controversial subject to be sure. I can't speak for the person who made the original comment but I cannot state for certain whether Ratzinger was a Nazi or not.

[Gnostic]

241. Thanks

I could have done a bit of searching myself I suppose, I thought though that perhaps you had some concise info on it.

From what I am gathering from the article you posted a link to, not much can really be pinned on him other than joining the Hitler Youth program, which is understandable since he was very young and most importantly it was required and mandatory for all youths his age at that time. To not do so would hve surely meant imminent shipment to a camp or worse, including the entire family. It also says his father is on record for OPPOSING the Hitler regime, forcing the family to move repeatedly to avoid constant persecution. It would seem to me they did all that they could do considering the circumstances.

I'm aware of the murky, corrupt, cozy, lucrative and secretive relationship the Vatican had with the Nazis, but this seems rather far fetched.

[Pacifist Patriot]

244. The only reason I know even that much about it was because

when he was announced as the new pope the Nazi Youth angle went ape all over DU. :) That's the only reason I knew what the person in this thread was talking about. Otherwise I'd have been confused too.

[qanda]

59. Yes, people are certainly being turned off

I guess that's why more and more people keep showing up for the rallies. Everybody likes a good freak show! :sarcasm:

[MamaBear]

12. There you go.

Thanks, Will. I'm happy to recommend.
MB

[tx_dem41]

13. Isn't it more important to listen to people's opinions on how she comes..

across in the media (MSM, internet, alternative news, etc.) than how she comes across face-to-face? 99.99999% of the people in America are only exposed to her thru that media, and not face-to-face. So that is going to be the only way people will make a final impression on her, and possibly the whole war issue.

I think she is a wonderful person, but sometimes wish she did have a media adviser with her at all times. Not to suppress her, but maybe act as a coarse filter of what she puts out and what issues she addresses.

Overall, I love it when she focuses on the Iraqi War. I begin to cringe when she goes off-issue and starts to talk about Democratic politics and Israel. Those are just minefields ready to blow-up in someone's face.

Ok...I don't think I stated any heresy...but flame away if you must.

Edit: missed a word in my title.

[WilliamPitt]

17. You gonna pay for the media advisor?

They don't grow on trees.

Neither does gasoline, busses, lodging, etc.

This is what grassroots activism looks like. It's coarse. It works. Try it sometime.

[tx_dem41]

18. Will...if she is important to the cause....

somebody should either step forward (in fact wasn't Trippi down at Crawford at some point?), or a group or individual should help financially. Its not a criticism of her.

[Wordie]

26. Do you have any links to her actual remarks regarding Israel?

I would like to see some direct quotes. All I've gotten so far is second hand. Thanks.

[eridani]

183. Her so-called "quotes" were in an email to ABC

And as we all know, if the header says that the email is from Cindy Sheehan, then that's who it absolutely has to be from, right? :sarcasm:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/16/acd.01.html

COOPER: You were also quoted as saying, "My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel. If you get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine, and you'll stop the terrorism." How responsible do you believe Israel is for the amount of terrorism in the world?

SHEEHAN: I didn't say that.

COOPER: You didn't say that? OK.

SHEEHAN: I didn't say that my son died for Israel. I've never said that. I saw somebody wrote that, and it wasn't my words. Those aren't even words that I would say.

I do believe that the Palestinian issue is a hot issue that needs to be solved, and it needs to be more fair and equitable, but I never said my son died for Israel.

COOPER: OK, I'm glad I asked you that. Because, as you know, there's tons of stuff floating around on the Internet on sites of all political persuasions, so I'm glad we had the opportunity to clear that up.

SHEEHAN: And thank you, because those are not my words. It doesn't even sound like me saying that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, today, we've received numerous e-mails from viewers who saw that, and said, "Well, she lied. We read online that ABC News confirmed she sent them a letter saying exactly that."

So we contacted ABC News today about it. They said they had received a letter on behalf of Cindy back in March. They said took it seriously enough that they responded to it, but so far they cannot find the actual e-mail, they say. They say they're trying to find it, they're investigating.

Bottom line, ABC News right now does not seem to be confirming this is what Cindy Sheehan wrote to them, so stay tuned. We'll continue to follow.

[TankLV]

181. And if she did, then you people would be bitching about how she is "not

genuine" and that she is just another "professional protestor" and a "phoney" and not "real".

Yeah - I'd bet my life on that one.

[jonnyblitz]

14. best. post. ever.

:thumbsup:

[Walt Starr]

15. I have nothing but respect for Cindy Sheehan

Never met her. She'd have no clue who I am.

I have nothing but disdain and scorn for ANSWER.

Those are my stances, and I'm sticking to 'em.

[blueraven95]

114. at the moment, with what little info I currently have about ANSWER

I definately agree

[bettyellen]

19. it's one thing for a politician to need to keep away from answer- but

would it be so bad for any of the rest of us? no, unless you're an absolutist ego tripper.
they do jack shit waiting for the perfect opprtunities to arise.

[LynneSin]

21. ANSWER basically shut UPJ out of the protest and took over the agenda

First, I would have never organized a DU gathering had this been solely run by International Answer. Personally, the group is too radical and brings too many pet projects into their protest who speak about issues that have nothing to do with the war. Acceptable topics for Saturday's events should have been the War and Bush's failure in the Gulf Coast. Instead they brought in every Tom, Dick & Harry to talk about their cause that had nothing to do with the main event.

You take a look at most of the stuff I posted about the protest and it was all from United for Peace & Justice, a group that broke off from IA because they wanted to be about the War and Bush administration and not all the pet causes.

Take a look at this link:
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3091

10:00AM All-Day Peace & Justice Festival Begins, Washington Monument Grounds
11:30AM Rally at Ellipse
12:30PM March steps off
3:00PM "Operation Ceasefire" Concert featuring Cindy Sheehan

That was the schedule for Saturday as posted by UPJ. Did it happen that way? Nope. At 12:30 the rally was no where close to getting started and at 1:45 we started formation of the protest march. And as for making the 3pm concert - well at 3pm our section was finally marching past the White House. It wasn't until 5pm that we got worn out from this extended march and ended up cutting the event short. We never even made it to the concert. And BTW, I didn't see any UPJ stands or presence at the event. It's almost like IA got in there and booted out UPJ because god forbid UPJ stays focused on the big issues instead of forcing me to listen to idiots talk about stuff that personally I don't care about!

So I can honestly say this much. Yes, I will attend future protests in DC, but if International Answer is involved I'd rather just take the bus from Delaware.

I think you can ask any DUer that came to the March for Choice in April 2004 held by Planned Parenthood & NARAL to know that you can organize a protest, have speakers relevant to the subject matter, stay on schedule and btw, bring 1,000,000 people to march. If I ever organize a DU Protest gathering again, I'll waite for another Choice protest because I know what their agenda is about and they'll stick to the protest at hand.

As for Cindy - why anyone would want to bitch about her is beyond me

[Lars39]

25. And we weren't able to see the march at home from C-Span.

That left a whole lot of people clueless about the march.

[LynneSin]

31. CSpan probably promised about 3 hours worth of coverage

which if you went by UPJ's schedule that would have been an hour worth of speakers and then 2 hours of the march.

I caught the tail end of the protest coverage and it was a fucking embarassment. CSpan stuck with the speakers, which ended up taking the entire 3 hours and by the end there was no one watching and these freaking radical groups giving speeches about stuff that most people at that protest did not care about.

It's rare that I would disagree with Will on anything, but I think because of IA's involvement and how they messed up this protest that you'll see less and less people attending these rallys. I know my Delaware peace group and they would rather organize something themselves that is local and true to the message than to be a party of this radical agenda set forth by IA.

[Walt Starr]

35. That would make sense as to why ANSWER would extend the rally time

That way, all of the crap spewed by their speakers is all that would be on CSPAN.

Now I hate them even more.

[Lars39]

40. It looked like that freeper rally pic by the end.

I'd like to think it was a failure of someone in UPJ to make sure that C-Span knew the schedule, 'cause I really hope it wasn't the result of some kind of deal between IA and C-Span. Seems like UPJ would have spoken up, though, the longer it dragged on, but then again, C-Span is supposed to be contrived of journalists, so why didn't they follow the story?

[blondeatlast]

42. The C-Span coverage was pathetically bad, whether by design or accident.

I was home with stomach flu and craved seeing the march, but saw nary a shot of it.

I sympathize with your feelings towards ANSWER, but the fault isn't ENTIRELY theirs (those of us on the Left knew they would do this, the TV audience, of course, would have no idea about them, for the most part).

[jonnyblitz]

93. well..i am sure DUers can figure out how to organize and

get to the march just fine without you Lynnsin and therefore your sterling reputation wont be sullied by us on the fringe. :eyes:

[sniffa]

110. ..

:rofl:

:hi: jonny.

[jonnyblitz]

125. ...

I didnt see you...:P :hi:

[KoKo]

210. Good Points by both Lynne Sin AND Will Pitt.

Cindy was the rally point for this to be the biggest Peace March ever in DC. The turn out was huge because of the support for her. Is it time for this movement as large as it is to break with Answer...Yes. But, fighting constantly here about ANSWER takes away from the success of all those folks who gave up their time and bucks to get to DC and BE THERE.
The criticism of Cindy seems to revolve around the disputed comment she made about our support for Israel. There is a loud vocal group that always sees anti-Semites under every bed and in every comment about Palestine or Israel or all the money we have spent in our tax dollars trying to keep Israel protected. The issue can never be brought up because of the attacks and the assumed anti-Semitic bias of anyone even trying to discuss it.

Pitt's comments were closer to my own feeling about the success of the Protest. Attacking Cindy and ANSWER only takes away from the HUGE NEW MOVEMENT that burst forth there in DC last weekend. Cindy Sheehan was a catalyst, Katrina and Rita were the explosion and for the first time...we have the Chimp & his cronies scrambling.

Working to separate the Peace Movement from ANSWER's more radical causes can be done because the "will" to do it now has greater numbers than before. People will emerge who can facilitate permits and all the rest that goes with huge marches because of the anger at ANSWER's
behavior on Saturday. They did seem to be manipulative from what Lynn says. That's my hope, anyway.

But, I don't agree that all groups or organizations that are trying to expose WHY America has become an Imperial Monster should be totally excluded. Grandstanders and folks yelling "ITAFADA" should be marginalized, but those with honest, well thought out opinions should be heard. Some training for speakers is needed if they want to participate. Allowing people to stand and scream epithets isn't constructive.

:shrug:

[frankly_fedup2]

246. I'm with you. As soon as I saw ANSWER taking over the agenda of

the whole protest, I cut it off. I feel people were duped in attending as well as watching. ANSWER used our Rosa Parks for their media event PLUS made it look like they were a part of Cindy's agenda regarding the war. I think Cindy should've made it clear she was in no way associated with ANSWER. She was there against the war, for her son, and for the sons of other mothers out there who are too stupid to realize they and their kids are being used by the Bush agenda.

It looked to me like ANSWER used Cindy, and by their political views, made it appear Cindy was just one of many that were a part of ANSWER.

Hell, Mike Malloy (love the guy . . . but) last Thursday was bitching that not one representative or senator would be there as a speaker. He was really throwing a fit. Now, I can understand why only Cynthia McKinney was there. I never heard Mike's follow up after the march.

[mod mom]

23. I support your comments and also support Cindy. I attended the DC Rally w

my family and was impressed with the numbers. I am getting flack from some Jewish friends for attending when ANSWER played such a major role. I wish they could have stayed on topic OUT OF IRAQ instead of other issues, but I went since ending the immoral war is so important to me.

I am very upset with Democratic leaders who stayed away. There were many groups there besides ANSWER, and since many of them voted in support of the war initially I think they should have been there to march with us to get us out! I wholly support the CBC and their strong presence at the rally as well as PDA. These are the true DEMS, not like the ones that give in to corporate lobbists.

[BrklynLiberal]

27. What she said. Ditto.

:thumbsup:

Excellent post Will.
Recommended.

[LynneSin]

34. I don't blame your Jewish friends for being angry

Pro-palenstinean speakers are not needed at these protests. There are tons of anti-war people of Jewish faith at these protests. Should we tell them to go "F" themselves in order to bring the Pro-Palenstineans in?

IA needs to stick with the main topics or let UPJ organize the anti-war rallies.

[mod mom]

132. UPJ was also denounced for their policy:

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=73

I wish we could have stayed on topic not to offend anyone (except, of course the bushbots!)

[kma3346]

28. Hear hear!

Cindy has done more than anyone to pull together the anti-war movement. It would have been really easy for her to hide away in her grief and suffering after losing her son, but she chose to put all of her energy into trying to do her part to end the madness that is the Iraq war.

I'm not saying that all of the people here who denigrate Cindy and question her motives are trolls and "plants" who are just trying to cause trouble and turmoil, but some sure are doing a good job of it. Anyone can join DU and it's totally anonymous, so surely there must be some intentional rabble rousers among us--even those with the coveted 1000+ post designation.

Everyone certainly has the right to his or her own opinion, but maybe we should just ignore those posters who seem to be trying to cause turmoil for turmoil's sake. Let their posts fall below the main page and let them just fade away.... To keep responding just gives them more power and attention.

[Karenina]

30. Great Spirits have always been met

by violent opposition from mediocre minds.

-Albert Einstein

[Q]

33. Agreed...

...and well said.

[mtnsnake]

36. I also have a couple questions

What Democratic Congressman or spokesperson has done 1/10th of what Cindy has done in the cause of resisting Bush's immoral war?

What Democratic Congressman or spokesperson has publicly called Bush a liar (and used the L word specifically) like she did?

Who else do we have besides HER?

It's pretty sad how anyone can knitpick over something minor she says or does, when you condsider the overall picture of what's going on.

[WilliamPitt]

37. Lee, Conyers, Woolsey, the Progressive Caucus, the Out of Iraq Caucus

to answer your questions...but yes, your point is well made.

[Just Me]

38. I thought tolerance of varying positions was the trademark of a liberal.

But, last night, I saw so many hypocritical, persecutory, nit-picky, destructive posts against an organization with a PROVEN success record to organize a wide array of groups, and posts against one of the most pure-hearted women I've ran across in my lifetime,...that, I just felt majorly pissed.

The "excuses" for the INTOLERANCE expressed were f*cking pitiful. I am still disgusted.

I ask, why is support for the Palestinians to be mandatorily prohibited by liberals who are SUPPOSED to be supporting a healthy democracy which includes the advocacy of civil/human rights for ALL people? There is no excuse to characterize advocacy for one people as being auto-anti-whatever. That's just dumb!!! Pro-Palestinian does not not NOT dictate anti-semitism,...just ask all the Israelis who are advocating human rights for the Palestinian people.

Who made the rule that, if an individual or organization has certain positions with which certain folks disagree, that person or organization must be CAST OUT of the fold?

Stupid. Intolerant. Garbage. Grow-up. Get a damn grip. Damn! :rant:

[MADem]

173. No one is suggesting that those people with those issues should be cast

out of the fold...but the fact is that 99 percent of the people in attendance were there because they opposed the war. They were there to support Cindy Sheehan's demand for accountability, not to listen to speeches about other issues, or see their focus diluted.

And the speeches, for the most part, re: those niche issues were nothing short of dreadful--more like rants. The war speeches, though, were for the most part well written and well delivered.

[nashville_brook]

177. amen!

over and over amen.

[rwork]

39. She is a 100 percent

genuine American hero.They will attempt to smear her just like they did Al Gore and John Kerry. But it is not going to work.

[LittleClarkie]

52. However, I uphold the right to dissent and comment

as part of free speech, even if the stance is unpopular. And you KNOW I'm not down with what folks did to Gore or Kerry. A valid criticism, truthfully statesd and accurate or perhaps even a gut reaction clearly labeled as such should have a place here. Even if some of us know the person and have spoken to them, that shouldn't preclude a person having an opinion on the proceedings.

Substitute Dubya for Cindy in Will's post. Does it still make sense. Who here has been a governor. Who here has been a president. Who here has had to deal with a hurricane. Who here has done anything that a president does every day.

So I suppose then that we shouldn't criticize Dubya? How quiet would this place get if that was the standard we held EVERYTHING to.

[Rex]

41. My hat goes off to all the 'road warriors' that take the hits!

I don't think I could ever be derogatory toward a mother who lost her son. The pain must be indescribable. That goes for right and left.

ANSWER threw a hugh party and everyone was invited, I'm still not sure (even after reading a lot of posts about ANSWER) about their true allegiances, but let me say this; I don't care at the moment because they are swinging the hammer against Boosh. And that is good.

[SharonRB]

43. Well said, as usual, Will

Why anyone would bad mouth Cindy is beyond me. ANSWER is a different story, but to me they were but a small (albeit vocal) part of the day. Being Jewish, I try to stay far away from them and their agenda. In fact, when my father found out I was going to the march, he left an article in my car about it that totally focused on ANSWER being the sponsor. If I had read that and knew nothing else, I might have stayed away, but I knew they were only one of many sponsors.

I agree with Lynne's post that talks about how UPJ was not very visible, but in spite of all that, if I had to do it all again I would do nothing different -- I would be there to meet other DUers, to speak up against the war and to voice my feelings about * and this criminal administration.

It would have been nice if C-SPAN hadn't focused so much on the speakers. When I got back to my room Saturday night and watched the tail end of the replay, I was very disappointed that they were showing speakers and not the march.

Will -- it was great finally meeting you. Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk more.

[WilliamPitt]

44. UPJ walked away halfway through the morning

Don't know why, but they walked.

[SharonRB]

48. Maybe they were getting fed up with ANSWER

like everyone else was.

[fishnfla]

45. Screeching and preaching gets old, dude

Self-righteous indignation is a one act play with an audience of none.

hint,hint

[Zomby Woof]

49. I see a big audience here

So uh, how is your criticism constructive...?

[LittleClarkie]

46. Sorry citizen

God forbid we be called unAmerican for our dissent. Didn't realize we had to show our "cred" before we'd be allowed an opinion.

There would be crickets chirping here if we all had wait until we'd done what the person we criticize is doing. I've never been President. So does that mean I can't criticize Dubya? Have I ever tried to run a country? Nope. Guess I should keep my mouth shut then.

[merh]

143. Couldn't agree with you more, LittleClarkie!

Gosh, guess we should have just swallowed the kool aide and accepted things for how they are. :shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

154. Of course, there are things you can change and things you can't

Cindy is Cindy. You go to war with the warrior you have and all that. Criticizing her doesn't really do anything. Still and all, folks do have opinions and will express them. And I'm not sure I see the problem with that.

ANSWER, on the other hand, and their involvement in protests is something that can be changed. Maybe someone will be motivated to "build the better mousetrap" so to speak, esp. if they WENT to the protest and saw first hand things they did not like about it.

[merh]

158. Actually, when Martin Luther King, Jr., was marching and spreading

his messages, many in the civil rights movement were uncomfortable with his methods and some of his public statements.

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. :shrug:

I love Cindy Sheehan's courage and will. :loveya:

[Pacifist Patriot]

205. Didn't see where anyone said dissent was unAmerican.

All I read was someone asking people to consider another perspective.

Maybe we're all a little gunshy after the oppressive tactics of the Bush administration but I do believe you are over-reacting.

[Old Mouse]

47. welcome to the court of public opinion

the mechanism to destroy effective leaders as been so finely tuned that most of America turns a blind eye to a war hero scholar losing the commander-in-chief job to a draft dodging drunk.

Every person with the charisma or charm necessary to garner support that has spoken against this regime has been outlandishly and continuously vilified. Finally we have the most difficult icon to demonize America could ever produce. Her undeniable sorrow... Her life shattered was the archetype of the American dream. How can anyone possibly complain? No one else could have survived this long against the swift boating machine!

But I must add, as long as all separate liberal causes get equal promotion, the left will fail. I don't have an alternative to the demands of ego on coalition, but what is, am.

[blondeatlast]

111. That should be it's own thread. I'd nominate this dead to rights

response if I could.

The entire issue in a nutshell. Thanks for some wise words.

[SlowDownFast]

189. This is the wisest post in this whole thread.

This is nuts and bolts, brass tacks.

Sheehan is on the righteous path to garnering effective change so far.

ANSWER is NOT. (it's splintering us, once again).

I don't buy that ANSWER is solely responsible for mustering 500,000 people. That's just bullshit. They consist of about 10 fringe groups. The masses came from elsewhere, by word of mouth, from their own separate organizations that had nothing to do with ANSWER, just as those from DU came of their own volition and organization. The date had been set. ANSWER just cut in front of the line to secure the permits.

And I hate mf'er's who take cuts.

[Czolgosz]

50. Great post.

[KittyWampus]

51. You must suffer a complete lack of imagination if you can't envision the

Left coming up with a coalition to organize events without ANSWER.

Starting with the UFPJ:

Quakers
Tikkun.org
NAACP
ACLU
Labor

[WilliamPitt]

53. Hasn't happened yet

So...

[Czolgosz]

58. Why do I get the feeling that if the ACLU set up the coalition, there'd

still be people here saying it was too "fringe." If the NAACP set it up, they'd say "race was made into too big of a distracting issue." If Tikkun set it up, it would be "why was the Palestinian-Israeli conflict needless made into a pervasive subtext." As for labor, they had enough problems organizing the AFL-CIO convention such that they don't need to be distracted by the task of organizing an anti-war coalition that would further divide labor at this critical time.

So . . . have you even called the Quakers to see if they are busy?

[Yuugal]

69. you slay me

"As for labor, they had enough problems organizing the AFL-CIO convention such that they don't need to be distracted by the task of organizing an anti-war coalition that would further divide labor at this critical time."

This former shop steward thanks you for the belly laugh. :rofl:

[libnnc]

61. how do we contact you...

to offer you help in organizing the next event?

Lead the way. Get on the phone. Write some letters. Tell us where to meet and when.

[Warren Stupidity]

164. what a ridiculous list.

Yeah we will all sit around in our basements envisioning the perfect coalition. Great idea.

[TankLV]

182. We're, Stull. Waiting.

I repeat.

We're.

Still.

Waiting.
.
Only ANSWER has risen to the challenge.

If it wasn't for ANSWER, there would have been NOTHING.

You all can chew on that one for awhile.

There are 51 other weekends available! Now! For the asking! To any group!

silence.

[Coexist]

212. Not true - I didn't even know ANSWER was involved in the beginning

I heard about the rally from Impeachbush.org. I reserved a hotel room months ago in anticipation. ANSWER pushed me out - it didn't bring me there.

There were many organizations there that went because it was an ANTI-WAR rally. Not an ANSWER rally. ANSWER did not get all of those people there to protest - disgust with this war did.

So I made my family watch on CSpan - to see what it was like - even though I chose not to go and associate myself with ANSWER. They watched three speakers - who mentioned nothing about the war - and my family looked at me like I was crazy. I was embarrassed, and we turned the television off.

I firmly disagree with you, Mr. Pitt. ANSWER is a problem, it is not the answer.

[Left_Winger]

54. Well stated and Nominated

:kick:

[spanone]

55. Drop-Kick me Jesus through the goal posts of Life. Rant on.

:thumbsup:

[Butterflies]

56. Thankyou for that!

I couldn't agree with you more.

[understandinglife]

57. Thank you Will.

Peace.

[Generic Other]

60. The story of the "Little Red Hen" might be useful to insert here

http://www.ongoing-tales.com/SERIALS/oldtime/FAIRYTALES/littleredhen.html

Cindy's movement has been largely a matriarchal one. A lot of people commented on this fact during Camp Casey. The women led the struggle.

Cindy. Code Pink. Even the women at DU rallied for Cindy in a way we didn't dare publically admit. It was in the subtext of every conversation I had about Cindy with other DU women though, largely unspoken: Cindy was one of us. Speaking from the heart of a woman. Her voice was our voice. We were empowered by her struggle.

For once, white males didn't exclusively run the show. Yet a whole lot of them sniped from the sidelines.

Same with ANSWER.

Maybe this is really the issue no one wants to address.

The white male power structure is being challenged by women and minorities. And gosh darn it they don't all think like white men want them to think. Surprise.

[incapsulated]

64. I'm a non-white woman

And ANSWER can kiss my ass.

I also think this attempt to twist a legitimate and respectful question about Cindy and the anti-war movement into a vicious attack on a living Saint is the worst kind of bullshit "thought crime" groupthink I've seen on DU in a while.

[Generic Other]

83. I'm a non-white woman too and I don't happen to agree with you

I have not read the posts with repectful questions addressed to Cindy. For every positive thread started about Cindy at DU, there have been two negative ones.

Every step of the way, I have read posts saying that Cindy was hurting our cause. Posts quoting her out of context, public proclamations that she isn't worthy of some DUers' support because of something she has said.

Now I am reading the same kinds of posts denigrating ANSWER, mostly because they put on a crappy show at their rally. But it was their rally. They brought the port-a-potties, right? So I guess they did something right.

Cindy and ANSWER both drew hundreds of thousands of people to the capital to protest the war, something no one else has been able to do since this war in Iraq started.

At this point, they have a lot more credibility with me than the naysayers. This is not "groupthink."

[Generic Other]

97. And don't forget the Al Sharpton threads after he came to see Cindy

How many DUers said they would no longer support Cindy because he preached at Camp Casey? I think some of the same ones who are saying they'll no longer support her because of (fill in the blank).

If anyone even says the word "Palestine," we can't support them; if any one wants to end the war, they aren't being realistic; when it comes to the rights of women, people of color, or gays, they're negotiable. These are the messages I am hearing DUers deliver.

I don't support these positions. I'm sorry if other DUers do.

How much more of being told I don't count and hurt your cause do I have to take?

There is a reason why I call myself Generic Other. Sometimes, I don't think there is anyone on my side.

[suffragette]

118. well said, G.O.

I think you've cut to the heart of the issue.

Glad to be here on your side anytime.

[incapsulated]

169. I don't see anti-Cindy threads everywhere?

What I do see that any questioning, even in the most abstract terms, of Cindy's role as the default sole "face" of the anti-war movement is enough to get many, many responses with articulate rebuttals such as "fuck off and die". And special attention from William Pitt, here.

I support any poster's right to state their opinion, even if it's not popular. They do not deserve to be insulted and told to shut up and go away or display a list of their credentials and personal friends to Mr. Pitt or anyone else here. If you disagree then state your case, but I don't like this, yes, group-think that chooses what "we" will think of this person or that issue at risk of being called a freeper, told they are slackers or whiners or whatever the fuck. It's called Free Speech, something I thought we were supposed to support.

Edit, the reason I pointed out that I was a non-white woman was the assumption by the poster I was responding to that anyone who questions ANSWER or Cindy somehow has a rascist or sexist bias, which is absurd. I have no problem with Cindy at all, only the attempt to silence any discussion about her, but ANSWER is another story altogether.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

62. Criticizing Cindy and ANSWER are not the same thing

Cindy is the face of our movement, and she's a HEROINE.

She has been nothing but brave, passionate and committed, and I admire her immensely. She has been under incredible pressure, all the while putting herself right in the middle of something that reminds her every day of the death of her son. As a mother, I have unlimited respect for that; if I lost my son, I don't know that I wouldn't just give up on everything. She is amazing.

ANSWER does not get quite the same amount of my respect. I do appreciate how effective they have been at organizing protests, but as much as they assist the cause with their ability to mobilize people, they simultaenously hurt our cause with their unfocused and sometimes embarrassing performances. I suppose if I had to choose I would take them rather than leave them, especially if no one else is willing or able to do what they do. They still annoy the hell out of me, and I hate that CSPAN chose to make them the focus of their coverage.

But I can't think of a damn thing to criticize Cindy for. If she's been rough around the edges, as some have said here, I haven't noticed; I think she has been graceful, sincere and incredibly courageous, and she has advanced the movement to a point she never expected when she traveled to Crawford back in August.

So there you have it. I'm not sure why you lumped in criticism of Cindy with criticism of ANSWER. People criticize everything on this forum, it's what we do.

[ArkDem]

63. She is truly an intellectual and activist of the first order! She is

above any criticism. A.N.S.W.E.R. is the answer to our prayers!!

[Scout1071]

65. I don't have to know Mike Brown to know he did a shitty job at FEMA.

Don't get me wrong, I was ecstatic with the turnout of the crowd and disgusted with the lack of media. If I had not had a family wedding this weekend, I would definitely have been there myself.

I'm just saying that I have not seen anyone on DU say they were going to DC for an ANSWER/Pro-Palestine/Anti-Israel rally. Yet when I tuned into to CSPAN, it feels like that is all I saw. Maybe some of that is C-SPAN and the media's fault for not covering more of it. It was clear the crowds moved away from the stage area during these speakers - or at least it was clear they wanted to move. Would have been nice to see the crowds like we did in NYC. That was terrific coverage, I was glued.

I attribute the turnout to people saying they've had enough, they agree with and want to stand with Cindy, and they just generally want their country back. I don't recall anyone saying they were going to DC to "Free Palestine" - which is another subject all together.

Other than that, I applaud all the DU'ers and others who made it to DC. Each of you represented thousands more and I cannot thank you enough for marching for me as well.

So, I guess I've just come to realize that I don't so much blame ANSWER for wanting to get their message out, I place more blame on the media for not showing a broader view of this massive event.

[LibraLiz1973]

66. DELETE

[cynatnite]

67. I've got lots of examples, Will...

If you've never been in the military...shutup.
If you've never been president...shutup.
If you've never been overseas...shutup.
If you've never been in combat...shutup.
If you've never worked in a hospital...shutup.
And there is more where that came from.

Point is:

If people shutup based on your criteria...DU would be a boring place and there would be no reason to be here.

I have a right to criticize whoever I think needs to be criticized and that includes Cindy Sheehan, bush, you or whoever when the occasion calls for it. Just like you can criticize me or anyone else as you see fit.

DU is the last place I would expect to see an attempt to squash those who disagree. For a place that proudly proclaims dissent as an American quality, it's a shame to see it happen here.

[WilliamPitt]

71. My mighty powers of squashing

:eyes:

You jump on me for disagreeing...while defending the right to disagree.

I always love that.

[cynatnite]

75. It's a pompous post, Will

You more or less are telling people they have no right to disagree unless they meet your criteria. I call bullshit when I see it.

[WilliamPitt]

76. No

I'm offering my informed opinion about keyboard jockeys spraying shit from the sidelines.

I've earned that right.

[cynatnite]

80. I haven't earned a right to speak out...I already HAVE that right... n/t

[WilliamPitt]

81. And some day you'll actually be effective

instead of merely shrill.

Maybe.

[cynatnite]

82. Personal attacks now, Will? I'm really disappointed in you

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

86. You are correct, that was uncalled for

I apologize.

It just gets my dander up when I offer an opinion - strenuously, to be sure, but an opinion nonetheless - and get jumped on by people who attack me for doing so while defending the right to have an opinion.

I don't much go for the 'high horse' and 'groupie' comments, either. Took it out on you, and that was uncalled for.

[cynatnite]

89. It's all good, Will

We disagree about this and there are a lot of disagreements on varying issues.

I look at it like this: We're very passionate about our beliefs and take them personally. I'm more active when I get hot under the collar about something :)

[ruggerson]

101. How do you know who's on the sidelines and who isn't?

Tell us by what magic you discern this?

And beyond that, has the constitution suddenly added an amendment that Free Speech is only honored if it is approved of by Will PItt?

[stepnw1f]

129. Get Over It! (nt)

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

142. Get Over It (nt)

[ruggerson]

144. Dude, you forgot your !

your slipping

[stepnw1f]

146. Get Over It (nt)

[TankLV]

187. Sure seems that way sometimes!

And we wonder why politicians get all "holier than thou" after they get elected.

Same principle in effect here.

But he DOES do an awful lot of work for us, you got to agree on that - certainly more than I!

[LittleClarkie]

102. Again, how can you tell the keyboard jockeys from the activists

Do they type differently?

[ArkDem]

77. You will have to admit the name dropping technique is very

well done, though.

[TankLV]

186. Listen to him Will - he has a valid point.

You are hardly god here, and some of the things you say here are immature and ignorant, too - just like me and the rest of us.

You need to be chopped down a few pegs, IMO.

I still love you, and there is nobody else like you, and the world is a LOT better place for you being in it - but sometimes you are just so full of your grand self.

Stop it.

Having said that - rant on.

[LibraLiz1973]

68. I'm calling BS on that post WilliamPitt

I normally enjoy your posts, but that one was ridiculous.
You basically just took everyone to task for having an opinion.


Woo Hoo Will, you know Cindy Sheehan. That doesn't make you more special than anyone else, nor does it give you the right to tell everyone here that if they don't KNOW her, haven't been arrested for their beliefs or haven't worked for an activist organization beyond the volunteer level that they aren't "in the business"?

Get off your ridiculously high horse & pull your head out of your arse. I support your posting & pointing out all that Cindy HAS done & trying to explain the sacrifices that she has made- but putting down everyone elses contributions to the process is pretty lame.









(For the record- I support Cindy Sheehan & have no beef with anything she has done to date. I just think the post was pompous)




(FYI, I am also ready to be attacked by all the Will Pitt groupies who wont realize he was also down playing your roles in the process as well. That post reminded me of a Republican attack ad. Tell everyone quickly why they are WRONG WRONG WRONG!! Make them feel stupid! That's the republican way.... NOT the Dem way.... I hope)

[WilliamPitt]

73. Were you meaning to be funny?

Cuz you pulled it off.

You basically just took everyone to task for having an opinion.

Had my own opinion.

Woo Hoo Will, you know Cindy Sheehan. That doesn't make you more special than anyone else, nor does it give you the right to tell everyone here that if they don't KNOW her, haven't been arrested for their beliefs or haven't worked for an activist organization beyond the volunteer level that they aren't "in the business"?

Actually, the direct activism work I do every day all across the country with coalitions across the spectrum does, in fact, give me standing to call out a bunch of keyboard jockeys when they are talking shit. Sorry if it stings, but there it is. Cindy is a friend, and I'm not going to stand by while she gets pissed on by people who don't have a tenth of her integrity, stamina, spirit of effectiveness.

But here's the funny part. You say:

Get off your ridiculously high horse & pull your head out of your arse.

And then:

(FYI, I am also ready to be attacked by all the Will Pitt groupies

So I'm on a high horse with my head up my ass and surrounded by 'groupies'...but then you say:

That post reminded me of a Republican attack ad. Tell everyone quickly why they are WRONG WRONG WRONG!! Make them feel stupid! That's the republican way.... NOT the Dem way.... I hope)

Hee hee hee. Pretty funny. You insult and attack me. You insult and attack people who agree with my, denigrate them by calling them groupies...and then have the gall to talk about attacks.

You're a hoot.

P.S. I am allowed to say people are wrong if I believe them to be so. That's an opinion, something you apparently value...so long as it's yours.

[LittleClarkie]

79. Do you criticize the President, William?

Have you ever tried to BE the President? Ever spoken to him? So how can you criticize him?

And, I believe, the person above you was expressing his opinion about your opinion. Same difference, really.

When DID you join the DU DQ's btw? I hadn't noticed it before.

So nice that you know someone personally. Perhaps you need to take that out of the equation however, as it seems to be coloring your perceptions.

[ArkDem]

94. OK, that's enough of that logic. Thinking out your posts before

you type can get you a bad rep!

[ruggerson]

99. GMTA, LC

I thought the exact same thing when I read his OP.

[LittleClarkie]

106. Hrm. No profile. I'll have to ask here then. GMTA?

I've been given a compliment I can't decipher, dadburn it!

[ruggerson]

107. GMTA

great minds think alike :P

[crispini]

131. LOL!

"When DID you join the DU DQ's btw?"

Oh SNAP! :rofl: :thumbsup:

Good point, btw.

[LibraLiz1973]

220. I agree with what you said about his perceptions being off

Just because you "know" Cindy doesn't make her 100% right, Will.
I think thats what alot of the "Keyboard Jockeys" were trying to say.
(at last check there WAS still freedom of speech????)


Don't worry, you put them all "right". None of them will dare to voice an opinion for you to denegrate again. Because it's a-ok for YOU to trash them in your posts, but NOT ok for anyone to disagree with you- or anyone you know.

Gotcha

[frankly_fedup2]

250. I got angry because I don't remember anyone advertising that this event

was being sponsored by A.N.S.W.E.R. and what their agenda was. Also, as far as their agenda, I totally disagree with that as well.

All I heard was it was going to be a huge anti-war protest with Cindy leading the way.

I thought the whole protest was going to be about OUR war with Iraq and how we were against OUR war with Iraq and wanted other kids, just like Cindy's son, to come back home and not die for lies and someone else's agenda (Bush). going to be Cindy, some other mothers who had lost their children, as well as some political speakers. I never knew ANSWER was going to be a part of this anti-war protest. I feel that ANSWER used Cindy to get a large crowd so then they could throw out their own agenda. I felt lied to. I was going to go and if I had spent the time and money to do so, I would have had a fit. I was going to support Cindy and (hopefully) meet her. I admire her for what she is doing and continues to do considering her whole family has turned against her.

If ANSWER had not been associated with this protest, we would have gotten some great speakers (just like the right did on Sunday). They didn't get big names, but they did get members of Congress.

G. Gordin Liddy (felon) was there and told a story about someone burning a flag behind him when he was speaking. He said he did not realize such a thing was going on behind him; however, if there was nothing left of the flag, he would take the pole from them and stick it blah, blah, blah.

More lies from the right, which is not a surprise. Funny thing they did not get any footage of supposedly "us" burning the flag.

I personally didn't see anyone flaming Cindy so I don't know what Will is talking about. However, if the flaming was because of ANSWER, then I agree with whatever they say about that group.

[linazelle]

95. Hang in there Will, most of those nasty posts are from the same

people who fueled the ANSWER/Sheehan flames--the same people who have done absolutely NOTHING.

[LittleClarkie]

100. How would you know what they've done, actually

Can you tell by the way they type?

I'm somewhat neutral, except I will always stand by a person's right to cough up an opinion.

[LibraLiz1973]

221. Little Clarkie, your channeling me

I jumped in on this because I value a persons right to cough up an opinion & be called out on it in a thread....... NOT to have someone post a totally separate thread calling everyone out. This was nuts!

[ruggerson]

104. You want to tell us who's done nothing and who's done an awful lot?

List names. And let us know how you deduce this.

[LibraLiz1973]

223. In case you didn't know

Apparently the fact that Will is a writer gives him clairvoyant powers.
Unfortunately it doesn't work for breaking important news on the ridiculous right wing agenda- just stirring up trouble in his own backyard....

[LibraLiz1973]

218. Right Back Atcha

I think we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black here...



"P.S. I am allowed to say people are wrong if I believe them to be so. That's an opinion, something you apparently value...so long as it's yours." WilliamPitt

[Junkdrawer]

70. Karl Rove here: Look, you guys scared the shit out of us Saturday…

600,000 people united in an activist coalition. Damn, it was all we could do to keep the images out of the press. We’re not sure how long we can keep it up. Sooo, could you do me a favor…

Could you start some serious infighting? You know, criticize all your leaders and organizers without offering credible alternatives. It would help us all here get some serious sleep. I mean, I have a major city to loot reconstruct, and a grand jury to obstruct answer to, so I’ll be plenty busy without having to worrying about larger and larger protests.

Thanks loads…

[Blue_Tires]

249. agreed

can't we stay on the same page by simply agreeing that the war is evil and wrong, and realize that we all have different ways of fighting aginst it?

[baby_mouse]

72. clap clap clap

yay

[castiron]

74. Great points: I did meet her. She was humble and "real" .

It was inspiring, out there in the remains of the Crawford day.

[tom_paine]

78. Well said, Sir William!

:toast:

Hear, hear!

[donheld]

84. Don't listen to them Will

Your rant was right on.

[ruggerson]

87. Hey Will

Since your response to my post was just a profanity, why should I (or anyone) take what you write/say seriously?

If you want to engage in a dialogue, even a heated one, count me in.

If you just are here to pompously stroke your own ego at my expense, count me out.

And I do not need to justify to you, or anyone, my bona fides as an activist in order to express an opinion. Let's just say I put my wallet and my time exactly where my mouth and my pen are. Every day of every week.

[WilliamPitt]

90. Hey ruggerson

How many more times are you going to post this?

You got your reply upthread.

[ruggerson]

96. If you think

attempting to demean the opinions of others is constructive, I ain't gonna try to change your tactics or your personality. Homey don't play that game, tho.

And if you disagree with my STRATEGIC points about the media and Cindy Sheehan, you have every right. But to stand on a soapbox and attempt to undermine those who disagree with you, by claiming they are not actively participating every day is just pompous and foolish. All our voices are important. We're all on the same side, remember?

[PatriotMom]

229. I cannot help but to interject my thought

Ruggerson, you have lam blasted this poster to the point of ridiculous. I am of the opinion now that you are childishly jealous. It seems to me that if it is not about YOU, you get angry and throw fits as we have all seen on this board. You have derailed the conversation to your disdain of this poster. You have made a fool of yourself.:boring:

[ruggerson]

234. Get a grip

I posted an opinon on another thread, and this "poster" responded with a profanity and then proceeded to post a separate OP demeaning my right (and others) to have an opinion.

I don't know if on your planet that is behaviour that one should get away with, on mine it isn't.

This is nothing whatsoever about me, it's about supporting the freedom of ideas without being subject to puerile, irrelevant egomaniacal attacks.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

248. bummer, I would have love to have read this before it got pulled

Couldn't they have left it up until I got home?

:P

[zippy890]

91. Well said, it was a great rally in DC

& I have the utmost admiration for Cindy

[Pithy Cherub]

92. Cindy Sheehan deserves applause for displaying courage & grace.

Cindy is willing to do what is necessary on behalf of everyone. Civil disobedience has a noble history in this country too, it just takes some folks a lot longer to cotton on to the ideas.

Cindy:yourock:

[bridgit]

103. talk less, do more: check...

[patdem]

105. Will, I hate to argue with other DU'ers..but I did...and I KNOW that the

march was MUCH more important than A.N.S.W.E.R. or any of their speakers..

I remember in the early days I argued with you...while you were still teaching...and thought you were some sort of reight wing apologist..cause you did not say cuss words enough for my liking..well, I got booted..and came back with understanding and even hurrahed your transition from teacher to writer and speaker. Seems I was wrong ONCE (and got booted)..and I have been correct the rest of the time! Thanks Will..for ALL you have done! :hug:

[babsbunny]

109. She is my hero!

About the same age as me, and I don't know how she does it all! Thanks Cindy!!!:hi:

[stellanoir]

112. okay

Though I completely agree with the OP and fully comprehend and appreciate the perspective therein, I'm compelled to chime in.

Due to familial issues, I couldn't attend and watched as did many here, the misrepresentative coverage on and the vitriolic responses here on DU. I've avoided jumping in on any of the ANSWER threads and have just been marvelling over the collective power of the gathering

I fundamentally believe in energy, and that it can not be created or destroyed. Despite the grossly misrepresentative media reports, we know that one of the largest, if not the largest gatherings of like minded and conscious people occured over the weekend and encircled our usurped throne of power.

That will over time have an walloping impact. Look at what a charade transpired with "Frownie" today before the Repuke committee? * has never had a more hollow or frantic photo op than he did today as he advised conservation for the first time in his life, as he's spewed more jet fuel into the atmosphere over recent weeks than any other pres throughout history and would never dream of taking his oily buddies to task. It totally rang hollow.

This is energetics in action. Whether the protest was under reported by the press or not in the short attention span theatre doesn't really matter. We could feel it.

We know what happened and those who were there know what happened and if ANSWER wants to address global imperialism then fine because it's real and if they need to polish their delivery then fine. There's simply a whole lot of crap to be upset about.

But despite all that has transpired and digressed over the past several years, we are still a gloriously diverse nation and that is still a wondrous thing.

I had initially just wanted to respond to posts 13, 17 & 18 as to the issue of whether Cindy needs a media advisor. She totally does not. She speaks with a clarity and sincerity that are rare and treasured things in these heinous days of spin and smear.

Thankfully, she speaks from the heart. I never thought that would be a rare commodity here, but sadly, it is.

Bless her soul.

[etherealtruth]

113. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Ms. Sheehan ...

This is about her, her loss, her pain, her disgust. There is no script she must follow; the only standards she must live up to are her own. She's chosen to go on an arduous journey and has allowed many of us (sometimes in spirit only) to join her. She is "everymom," and Middle America recognizes this and respects it.


ANSWER, however, sucks.

[proud patriot]

115. Amen Brother

:headbang:

[ultraist]

116. I admire your standing up for Cindy

But, I disagree with your 'appeal to authority' argument. Someone that has the list of credentials you comprised, is just as responsible to support their claim with facts, as anyone else.

I'm surprised you said this, because most of what I read of yours, is supported logically with facts, and is not just testimony from so called authorities.

Many have not worked for "pay" for an activist org, but many have volunteered a lot of their time and donated money. Volunteer activists are not "less than," paid activists, in many cases. Really, what is more noble, volunteering or working for a cause for pay? Regardless, we all have a right to our opinion.

BTW, I stand with Cindy!

[LibraLiz1973]

224. This was exactly the reason I was surprised to read his post!

"I'm surprised you said this, because most of what I read of yours, is supported logically with facts, and is not just testimony from so called authorities." ultraist

[Lugnut]

119. Thank you, Will

:applause:

:):thumbsup:

[DefenseLawyer]

121. Why is it a good thing

that ANSWER was able to get a lot of people together for a protest, if the only real result was to marginalize to movement? A huge protest becomes rather pointless if those who oppose it are able to paint the protesters has "anarchists" or "communists" or "hippies" or pick whatever scary pejorative you like. Sure, those involved can say "wow we had a huge rally", but at the end of the day, rallies don't directly impact political change, they are only effective, it seems to me, to show the large percentage of people who may be leaning in the direction of supporting your position that lots of other people like themselves feel the same way about the issue. If the rally only serves alienate the masses from the movement, then I would say that the bigger the rally the worse it becomes ultimately to the cause. You know what the man said about carrying pictures of Chairman Mao. If the face of the anti-war movement is a wild-eyed kid in a court jester hat screaming about the IMF or not eating meat most people won't be quick to step up. That is unfortunate, because that kid is probably on the right side of those issues, but unfortunate or not, it is reality.

[Generator]

123. Thank you for finally asking that question!

And the whole appeal of Cindy Sheehan to the masses is she IS The masses. She is everywoman, everymom. My husband-who hates the shrill types like me-has been very impressed every time he sees her. She is real, no nonsense, and imperfect. And what was the controversy over-a few lines on a Daily Kos post-please-all America knows is she's "the peace mom" her kid died and she walks the walk. Just had a local mom on the news here that was arrested with her. Said it was worth it. People will remember that more. The one mom that looks like them.

[hiley]

122. very much appreciate

this post thanks, Will Pitt.
hiley

[pamela]

124. ANSWER committed the worst sin you can commit in America.

They were bad TV.

[Warren Stupidity]

165. and again: bad TV on CSPAN means 12 people saw it.

So get out there and organize and make ANSWER irrelevant.

[HoosierClarkie]

126. Geesh.

Everybody be quiet now. He has spoken.

[TankLV]

191. That's the way it seems to me, too.

What a shame.

[WhollyHeretic]

127. I support Cindy Sheehan and what she's done but this thread is

ridiculous. I can't stand the crap that other people aren't allowed to have opinions. This is not a cult of personality, Cindy Sheehan did not invent the anti-war movement. No public figure is above criticism. I have a lot of respect for Cindy Sheehan but she is now a public figure and is going to receive criticism. This is nasty and condescending post and it saddens me to see this on a progressive board. We all have a voice and should use that voice, we don't march in lockstep like a lot of the right-wingers.

[hiley]

128. Who said Cindy

invented the anti-war movement?
Some at DU have been ripping her apart for days,
Same with A.N.S.W.E.R.

multiple threads to bitch and moan about A.N.S.W.E.R. 24/7 instead of being happy the Peace Movement is growing!

[LittleClarkie]

133. There is criticism and then there is bashing

I can never get folks to see that there is a difference. Criticism isn't bashing. As long as someone doesn't distort her words or take them out of context, why shouldn't someone be able to say they disagree or have a problem with this or that.

[hiley]

145. What I am referring to was not criticism.

ripping apart.
because she smiled or this or that.

And as far as the A.N.S.W.E.R. bitch and moan fest most of it was meant to stop people from protesting because "it won't accomplish anything" bullshit. Then proceeding to rip A.N.S.W.E.R. apart because some don't approve of it.
Their getting the bodies out to March and Rally /enough said.

[LittleClarkie]

148. Well, actually, if the protests could be made better

and if it's some of the participants who had issues with the protest are the ones "bitching and moaning" then perhaps they're criticisms might be valid, and heeding them could produce a better protest. Something tells me that folks who protested this Saturday aren't trying to stop people from protesting. But their criticisms are treated the same as if they had turned on the movement or something.

I don't think most of us here disapprove of protesting. We just want our protests to be effective. And some of the participants apparently feel used, as they were there for one purpose, but their sheer numbers were made to look as if they were there for another purpose.

[hiley]

166. Many refused to protest at all

There are "DLC" types here who think nothing can be done until 2006.

I do not need to agree with a group or person on "everything" to work with them. A rainbow of groups includes more people and why should some decide who should be included or not?

Life is to short and time is wasting away while people are dying. meanwhile some are bitching and moaning.
Perhaps it is time to get over it and find a solution and be done with it.


if someone is to hung up on A.N.S.W.E.R. causes they must start their own group..

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/25/155054/153

I doubt A.N.S.W.E.R. is stopping other groups from doing their own thing.

[stepnw1f]

130. Hear, Hear

Go fuck yourself, freeper maggots!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

134. I'm with you, Will.

I have yet to meet a person with whom I agree 100% with.

The people you seek to defend have their hearts in the right place IMHO.

[Beausoir]

135. So, expressing an opinion that differs with yours is "couch potato

quarterbacking"?

Sorry, sonny. I've been around since you were in knee socks and I don't need you to tell me how to think.

I like Cindy Sheehan. I think she has suffered tremendously. I think she is very courageous.

Seeing her laughing as she was being arrested really made me lose some respect for her.

[hiley]

140. What? lost "some" respect for her? because why........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/why-i-was-smiling-and-hur_b_7970.html

[Beausoir]

172. Why?

Because I think there is nothing funny about getting arrested.

I applaud her courage in speaking out against this wrong war, but making it into an undignified giggling game made me lose some respect for her.

What could possibly be funny about being arrested?

You won't change my mind about that. I've read her excuses for it, including the underwear theory, and they failed to sway me. I lost some respect for her over this. You will just have to deal with that.

[hiley]

226. Try chilling out a little

it is good for you, really.
peace.:hug:
I found something very funny here at du..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4913877&mesg_id=4913877

[tlsmith1963]

136. I Don't Have a Problem With Cindy at All

Cindy comes across as *real*. People can relate to her. It's harder for me to relate to ANSWER. People standing up on a stage screaming slogans is something I just cannot get into at all. Yes ANSWER helped organize the protest, & it wouldn't have happened without them. You have a point. The problem is that a lot of people saw that C-SPAN coverage, & it made it seem like ANSWER was the only game in town. And Cindy hardly got to speak! I wanted to see the march itself, too. It would have balanced out the coverage more. It would have helped people to see that the antiwar movement isn't just about ANSWER & its' supporters. I really felt that the protest was Cindy's day, anyway. It wasn't ANSWER's day.

Tammy

[RoyGBiv]

137. Good words, Will ...

As usual. If only I had taken the time to craft a commentary without the emotional rancor that was filling me at the time.

To address one of your examples, when I first learned of Ms. Sheehan's stand, I felt inspired, yet guilty. I was sitting in a comfortable apartment, bathed in my air-conditioning, and learning about all that she was doing while being relatively certain I would not be arrested that day and that I knew from where I could get a drink of water in less than 30 seconds. I made up my mind then and there that if I didn't immediately start practicing what I preached, I was no better than the mindless masses who support The Disconnected One with their votes or inaction.

I made plans to go, even if I didn't know what my going would accomplish specifically, still feeling I was doing less than I could because I waited for my time off to be approved and until I was certain I had enough money in the bank to support the trip. And then, three days before I had scheduled myself to go, I went to the hospital, thinking I was dying, but actually suffering from one of those almost "comical after it is over" attacks of gastric acid.

I dealt with the fallout of this, at work and at home, and I remade my plans, eventually only to go to Crawford at a time when she was not there. I never met her, and I regret it, and I don't feel like I've done a damn thing.

This past Saturday I attended a local protest. Not a lot of people were there, and I don't even know if anyone noticed. But I risked something in doing this, risked my job by refusing the "mandatory volunteer overtime" thing and risked my relationships by telling people I had more important things to do than drink beer and listen to fart jokes. It was a small risk, minuscule compared to what others have done and are doing, but, for me, it was something. And it started a discussion at work about what I was doing, and it started debate among my friends and family about what was so important to me. They're talking and arguing and debating, and for the first time in ten years, I actually did something besides sit behind this keyboard and spew forth with my ramblings. Not a big thing, but a thing.

I need to do more. We all do. I will do more, and I think others will too.

[clitzpah queen]

202. Your contribution was not minuscule!

It's very brave to stand up and be counted where you live and work in a local protest. My hats off to you. It's also very brave and important work to get into discussions/debates with people who disagree entirely with you vs. debating how many DU'ers can dance on the head of a pin. Many of us could follow your example.

[az chela]

138. Thank you

I do happen to be a very good friend of Cindys and had written a couple of posts on here defending her last night and was told off royally by a few people.I have laughed with Cindy,cried with Cindy ,shared secrets with her and supported in every thing she does.She has given up so much to try to end this war and not for her as Casey is dead,it is for you people that have kids and grand kids that could be on their way to Iraq.She has single-handedly done more in 1 yr that most of us have done in a life time.Like I said last night ,til you walked a mile in her shoes DO NOt criticize her.
I have talked to her about how much she likes you Will and I will call her tonight and tell her what a Sir galahad you are.THANKS FOR SAYING WHAT YOU DID.I know you really mean it.

[tlsmith1963]

141. Tell Cindy I Support Her!

She gave me hope at a time that I didn't have any. Just when I thought everything was lost for our side, she went to Crawford. It was Cindy who re-energized the liberals. Thank you, Cindy Sheehan! :)

Tammy

[Generic Other]

147. Give her hugs and love from all of us who support her!

I have been haunted by her since I saw her on my local news station when she came to Fort Lewis last year. She touched my heart in a way no one else was able to do. I had hardened myself against feeling after Iraq. I numbed myself not to feel the pain, so as not to remind myself of how powerless I was to stop a war I opposed with every fiber of my being. But I cried the day I saw Cindy on my tv screen. Her heart was broken. You could see it on the tv screen. She had just met Bush that day. Her grief was real. And she made me feel it on a personal level.

I support her with all my heart.

[az chela]

149. Just called Cindy

She isnt answering right now,she is always so busy but I will pass on
your good wishes for her.She needs the support from all of us and she appreciates everyone who stands behind her.
A special thank you for the man who wrote the post last night that i responded to.Listen to me when I say that Cindy appreciates all of your support and one of these days you will get to meet her.She is such a special lady,I love her more than I can ever express!!!!
My son died before hers and she has been there for me every minute even to the point than when I was really falling apart she was going to fly here to be with me.She has an unconditional love that few people understand.Keep her in your thoughts and in the light.
Thanks

[hiley]

170. az chela

Welcome to DU and thank you for posting info about Cindy.
I am sorry about your losing your son.
Hugs to you,
hiley
:hug:

[PatriotMom]

193. az chela, you have my.....

deepest condolences for the loss of your son. I lost someone very close to me too, but it was not one of my children it was my husband, and I thought that would just kill me. I cannot imagine what the loss of a child must feel like. Best Wishes to you and your family.

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. You deserve applause for this

[az chela]

153. For me???

If this is for me thank you but Cindy is the one who deserves it,I call her Xena,my warrior queen

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. Actually I meant Will

but hey if the shoe fits . . . :)

[symbolman]

152. Will

I think you've insulted a lot of people here, including me with this post.

Everyone HERE is doing the work, and many of the people HERE MADE YOU what you are.

And me. Donations from the DU have sent me all over the place, and I am GRATEFUL, and I hope they know it..

I've had to personally sit on the Joe Scarborough show and DEFEND ANSWER. Have you done that on MSNBC?

We've both put in a lot of hard work, but people here are doing HARD WORK too.. THEY GOT the word out, THEY do the research. THEY PAY for Tents & Water & Fan for Cindy and pals at camp Casey.

And they don't beat their chests about it. Some of us are sitting at home staying up all night (and personally I've been so sick I've had to go to the emergency room twice this month) EDITING events, Like when I FLEW from Hawaii to DC to film CONYERS at the White House - and Detroit, my ARMY OF ONE flash got into the top 14 out of 1500 entries at the MoveOn event in NYC, but you know what? THat doesn't mean that the other entries didn't WORK AS HARD AS I DID, or were LESS VALID.

Would you like to see the footage of Conyers in a legal office in Detroit hugging me and calling "Brother"? Would that impress you? I haven't posted it because I didn't want to come off as arrogant or that I was using the donations from DUrs to further MYSELF - I am ALWAYS doing it for the cause. I'm nearly broke and starving and homeless at this point because I put everything I have on the line to fight these bastards.. without donations I couldn't have done any of it. (Thanks DUrs!)

NO ONE has the right to shit all over the DU'rs like you did with this post. NO ONE.

There's a big difference between Cindy and ANSWER and mixing the two together and dismissing people for their answers is below you.

I can't believe you posted this. You've done a lot of good, so have I, so have thousands here, and now this thread has gotten to the point of YOU complaining that other people are complaining about their not having the right to an opinion, while denying YOURS..

That's just screwy. Really, think about it.

I won't throw the baby out with the bathwater, cos I like you, but don't think that you are any more important than anyone else, that's the path to prickdom and loneliness, you're better than that..

Just my two cents. And here's more - ANSWER sucks badly (mediawise at minimum, and I DO know about this stuff), they need to be replaced by people without the baggage and I think if Takebackthemedia.com joined forces with other sites, like the DU, Bartcop, Buzzflash, Atrios, Kos, Code Pink, and a host of others WE could get one hell of a March going and do it right AND not have to go on Joe Scarborough's show and listen to Commie complaints like I did..

I'd like to clear my plate (Rove's War, Electile Dysfunction films) and throw one hell of a fun party with Green Day screaming AMERICAN IDIOT at the White House, wouldn't you?

One other question, and this is just to be a prick - did YOU serve in the military? I was drafted in 1971 and spit on when I came back in uniform, so I get to speak about Military affairs, but I want YOU to not do that if you haven't served, will you do that for me? :)

You still owe me a beer, but I won't accept until you are a little more contrite, and I mean that in the nicest possible way :)

[ruggerson]

155. Hear, hear!

Now THIS needs to be posted as an OP.

Thank you.

[Generic Other]

159. Here are the people we should be mad at

Shouldn't we focus our energy on this?

<snip>
But if you relied on television for your news, you'd hardly know the protests happened at all. According to the Nexis news database, the only mention on the network newscasts that Saturday came on the NBC Nightly News, where the massive march received all of 87 words.

MORE

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2677

[Laurab]

175. Symbol I'm just wondering...

First of all, I wasn't offended by Will's post at all, but that's just me, and I see some people were. I don't really understand. Is he not allowed to "rant" like so many others here at DU do? Yes, his name is more well known than most, but still, he was expressing his opinion, and I would think he should be allowed to do that without being told to "get off his high horse", or about his "groupies" and things of that nature. Other people posting rants don't get that, and they're allowed to defend their rants.

Of course, I agree with this particular post of Will's - I agree with most, not all, but he's right in my opinion. What little I saw in the news said nothing about ANSWER, only about the hundreds of thousands of anti-war protestors and Cindy Sheehan. We now have a face to an anti-war movement, we have a HUGE anti-war movement, and there she is, at the front of it, sort of by accident. And I've seen countless attacks on the woman, here on DU. It boggles the mind.

I don't think Will was really saying he was better than anyone else - I think I've read enough to know that he doesn't think that - and he thinks he can post here just like a regular old DU'er, which he should be able to do, because he IS one. He posted a defense about something he cares deeply about, called it a rant, and made it clear he was expressing HIS opinion. HIS opinion is just that.

I just think you're mistaken in turning it into him beating his chest. I didn't see that at all in the post, I saw him expressing his opinion. Maybe he will feel he should be contrite - I don't. I'm grateful to him, to you, to all of DU for anything and everything done to fight this bullshit administration, and I think Will should be able to post a rant here just like anyone else, without it being called "beating his chest".

[LittleClarkie]

176. I think it might have been the assumption that those who dissented

were keyboard jockeys who don't do anything. If someone disagrees, it probably isn't cool to assume they sit on their butts all day and don't do anything. Also, he seemed to imply that we'd have to have done what Cindy had done to be worthy of questioning her. Which for me begged the question, does that mean I have to run for president before I can criticize Dubya? Of course not.

That said, and even though I think her media exposure has peaked, I don't agree with much of what has been said about Cindy. I think it's kind of useless to argue about whether or not she should be a focus of the peace movement, since that will be up to Cindy and the media that covers her.

And I think she's a nice lady and I feel kind of bad for her being under the microscope and all.

But still, people have a right to their opinions.

[WilliamPitt]

222. "But still, people have a right to their opinions."

Except me.

*leaps onto high horse, herds groupies, rides off into sunset*

[LittleClarkie]

230. Don't forget the rest of the DU Drama Queens

They're yours too.

When did you start weenie whining, dude?

You KNOW that's not what I'm saying (or maybe you don't, as I'm not sure you even read my posts, hence I resent having one of them used for a drama comment. Oh woe to little William. He's being abrogated. By people using keyboards. O-B-K-B)

But I digress.

PEOPLE, and I assume you're a people, have a right to their opinion. They do NOT have a right to their opinions UNREBUTTED.

Sorry you don't like being "scolded" or but I wouldn't label those who disagree with you as keyboard jockeys as if you and Cindy were the only ones out there fighting. I suspect a good many of thems are activists as well.

Nobody is stopping anybody, esp. not with words. We didn't suddenly grow magic powers to silence those who disagree with us. Hello and welcome to the internets, the ultimate in free speech. And if you have time to post here, doesn't that make you just as much of a keyboard jockey? Of course not. But surely you don't think you can tell the armchair warriors from the activists merely by the way they type.

Funny how we yell at the right about our free speech, but we want our own side marching in lockstep. I don't have to agree with everyone. But everyone, EVERYONE you weenie, has a right to their opinion, whether you personally know the subject of that comment or not.

[WilliamPitt]

231. "They do NOT have a right to their opinions UNREBUTTED"

Thanks. That's precisely what I was doing with my original post. Rebutting a bunch of (imho) bullshit opinions, and holding up a mirror to those who denigrate from a sitting position.

I think you are worse with the lockstep stuff, friend. You aver that I try to silence other's opinions, while jumping up and down on mine...while saying things like, "They do NOT have a right to their opinions UNREBUTTED."

It's all very confusing.

[LittleClarkie]

233. But Will, how can you tell they're sitting?

They're names on a board, for cripes sake?

As for opinions, really that's all any of us are doing. You think some opinions are bullshit. Some think yours are bullshit. You seemed to say that others have no right to their opinions unless they'd met Cindy and done what she's done. Hence, you devalue their opinions and insinuate they sit on their butt all day. You don't know that. If posting on an internet board was evidence of sitting on one's butt all day doing nothing for the cause, then you'd be guilty too.

And I've never said anything about anyone silencing others opinions. As if we could do that on an internet board. I've always found that concept patently absurd, regardless of who says it.

Personally I get trounced every time I head over to DailyKos with Kerry information. But there are about a dozen people there who appreciate it. I could easily whine about how the dittoheaded Kossacks are trying to silence me with their snarky comments. But I don't. I just rebut them and come back the next day with more news about a speech.

Nobody's trying to silence anybody. Everyone is offering an opinion, even if that opinion is that you should shut the fuck up. Do what I do on Kos. Show up the next day with the same thing.

Will, you're whining. It doesn't become you.

[titoresque]

243. Sorry that's just pure B.S.

I've found a few of Will's post to be quite arrogant........this one however, is right on the money!

Anyone feeling forced to "defend" themselves IMO are feeling guilty...it's quite obvious.

He didn't point fingers at anyone in particular, so if anyone feels the finger pointed directly at them, well maybe they DO need to look hard in the mirror!

He's right Cindy has done more for the movement than all of us combined. I'm honored and inspired to be witness and apart of this history.

[TankLV]

192. Humility IS so underated nowadays.

Sigh.

[Coexist]

214. Symbolman - You ROCK!

Your DVDs are the best - and I thank you for defending those of us who choose not to support ANSWER. It is our right to feel that they take away from an important message.

Thank you.

[symbolman]

251. Thanks FLDem5

I've been finishing up my "Rove's War" double set DVD film, been sick for a month, slowed me down.. here's some news about it, if I haven't sent it yet and you donated it will be going out soon, very soon..

Here's the poop on it:

Miller is in a world of hurt, remember she said she feared for her life when she went into the slammer.. Bolton and his pal Fietz (who was double dealing with both the CIA and with the Bolton's rogue intel unit) are ones that I'm pretty sure leaked to Miller, Libby was just following orders from Cheney..

This is going to get really stinky and complicated, that's why I spent the last month finishing up my Rove's War double set DVD.. it's 2 and a half hours of total info, a chronology, side trips such as the meeting in Rome with Leeden, Karl Rove’s foreign policy advisor and organizer of the meeting..

Nicolo Pollari, head of the the Italian equivalent of the CIA, the SISMI

Italy’s Minister of Defense, Antonio Martino (no relation apparently to the spy Rocco Martino), Pollari’s boss

Larry Franklin, an American who presently is being prosecuted in the US for giving classified information to an Israeli front group, AIPC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) -- which some would call "spying," even though he has not been charged with espionage

Harold Rhode: member of Dick Cheney’s Office of Special Plans, protege of Ledeen, go-between with Iraqi exile and CIA asset (at the time) Ahmed Chalabi.

Ledeen already had a longstanding friendship with Francesco Pazienza, an Italian felon and forger...

Plus lots of soundbites from Comedy Central's daily show, fun graphics, ex CIA statements, Hearings, Downing Street Minutes Hearing which I filmed, lots of Wilson laying it all out - - and I wrote and performed a song for the end called "Secret Agent Plame" (like the old song "Secret Agent Man") for fun..

I plan to have it done over the weekend and start shipping - for all those who donated, I apologise for the delay, but I wanted to get it ALL in the film, and also have been to the emergency room twice this month, been really sick, but getting better..

especially with all this GREAT news!

Should be finished by over the weekend, then I'll fill the donations I received already and ask Skinner if I can fund raise (yeah, Takebackthemedia.com is running on fumes) here with my Rove's War Epic double DVD. It's good solid MEAT for political junkies that cuts through the confusion and fills in areas you never dreamed of, with no tin foil..

It's people like YOU who keep ME going :)

all the best,

sym

[Individualist]

245. If individual posts could be nominated for greatest,

I'd nominate this one, symbolman. :applause:

[GeorgeGist]

156. I missed the memo...

I never knew ANSWER threw together the largest street protest in recent memory. :shrug:

[nickgutierrez]

161. The bottom line:

450,000 (I've heard other figures - 450,000 seems like the best estimate to me)people marched in DC to protest the President. The dominant message by far was anti-Iraq war. Therefore, in the final analysis, 450,000 people protested the war in Washington, DC.

You earn the right to complain about the coalition building process when you can build a coalition that is both bigger and more coherent. For all the gnashing of teeth over ANSWER - and if there was a suitable replacement, I'd be the first in line - there's still nobody in a position to step up and replace them right now.

[In_The_Wind]

162. The March was much larger than expected.

United for Peace and Justice did an excellent job of providing security considering that that they were understaffed with volunteers.

Can we look at the positive aspects of a huge political group getting together without an incident. Operation Ceasefire was amazing!

[jonnyblitz]

168. it's be nothing but non-stop freaking out over ANSWER

involvment since saturday night. sorry I missed you in DC btw..:hi:

[In_The_Wind]

171. The main focus should be on the volume of people ...

who are willing to travel across country to have their voice be counted.



:hi: I'm sorry that I missed seeing you again. I was in-training on Friday night to do my part Saturday. Then I needed to wash off 12 hours of dust before I felt like seeing anyone on Saturday night. I was too exaused to do anything when I got back to Megan's room on Sunday night. Monday I wasn't up to another day of peace keeping, the best that I could manage was to be 'support'. I guess my age is finally starting to slow me down just a little.

But :wtf: give me a week or two to rest and I'll be on the road again.

[mike_c]

167. thanks for that rant, Will....

Word. :toast:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

174. HEAR HEAR!!! Great post...

...Sadly, it seems to be lost on far too many of us that real political strength is built through shear numbers. Intolerance and exclusivity are not the way to achieve this. Intolerance and exclusivity are the ways of the GOP, which is why they need Diebold, ES&S and Triad to secure political power. They don't have the numbers we do. Let's don't diminish the most powerful political weapon we've got: our NUMBERS.

[devilgrrl]

178. In defense of myself in regard to ANSWER...

I was unable to attend the march in Los Angeles and was hoping to watch the festivities from DC on CSPAN. However, the only thing they showed were the speakers on the ANSWER stage and they were as shrill as everyone here reported. Also, the speeches featured had absolutely NOTHING to do with the war, or bringing troops home, or the current administration, or any other pertinent issue that effects all of us... it pissed me off so I went off on them. And their politics and motives are suspect. :shrug:

[NMMNG]

179. I was at the rally and march

I have nothing to complain about :shrug:.

[Pachamama]

184. No, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No,

Will - Love Cindy, have met her as you know, think she is amazing and can remember the first time I saw her speak over a year ago that this woman is someone that the Bush administration should fear. Little did I realize that a year later, she'd be testifying at the DSM meetings and leading the way. In summary, Cindy Sheehan is amazing and I am so proud to have met her and seen what she has done and continues to do.

Regarding ANSWER,I will be the first to say that I have a lot of questions and issues with them. While it is true that organizing a massive demonstration takes a lot of work, and while I understand and agree with some of the issues that they feel strongly about, I feel and have felt since even before the war when there were massive protests around the country that the ANSWER folks have their agenda (which often seems all over the map and 100 topics and not focused) and it turned off a lot of people, myself included.

As someone who is opposed to the War on Iraq and who will continue to speak out against it, I hope that Cindy Sheehan will be one of the people continueing to shed light on the truth and my hope is that someone other than ANSWER can coordinate the protests against this illegal war.

[ladylibertee]

185. Who's bashing Cindy? I thought they were writing what they heard

other people say, but I didn't know WE were bashing Cindy.That would be sort of stupid.Unless, of course, they are ....FREEPERS.

[PatriotMom]

190. Cindy Sheehan has done something very remarkable...

She has stayed her course. She has kept to a single agenda in the wake of probably hundreds of sidetracks being thrown at her endlessly, I can only imagine. She has a simple and honest straight from the heart message, and the pain of a Mother that has lost a child to flame that message "What Noble Cause?"
Ya know when Donahue told O'Lielly that she was one tough Mother, and he (O'Lielly and the rest of the pack of wolves) could not stop her, Donahue was making quite a statement. Think about this HUGE MONSTER this little woman has gone up against and what has transpired since she has. Just give that a little thought. Then tell me she has lost her savor. Cindy would stick to this with or without anyone beside her. That is what makes her stronger than the Monster. This thing she has started could very likely break the back of this administration, and start a domino effect that could actually change the course of things for the whole world.
She said something I thought was very profound.


"We are light and they are darkness. Darkness can NEVER overcome the light, ever. As long as there is one spark, the darkness has lost. We will prevail, we will be victorious. The darkness has lost because our beacons of peace and truth are shining for the entire world to see. And it is a very pretty sight."

[nomatrix]

194. Thanks for watching Cindy's back.

As for D.C........
Does anyone here remember when there used to be parades almost everyday? I don't know when it changed, maybe when the barriers went up and there was less parking, maybe someone here can fill me in..

I was in awe the 1st time I went to a protest march at Nixon's 2nd innoguration. So many people from different backgrounds and causes including veterans, black panthers, hippies and soon to be drafted middle america. Of course there was an underground, but it can in the form of campus type handouts, and you'd read them or pitch them into the trash. There were speakers and hawkers, You could listen or move on.

What I'm trying to say, people come to D.C. to celebrate our right to assemble and our freedom of speech.

Cindy is an american, exercising her rights, an because of that she has the respect and admiration from those who see her plight and understand the time is past due to make a stand against this invasion.

[nomatrix]

195. Thanks for watching Cindy's back.

As for D.C........
Does anyone here remember when there used to be parades almost everyday? I don't know when it changed, maybe when the barriers went up and there was less parking, maybe someone here can fill me in..

I was in awe the 1st time I went to a protest march at Nixon's 2nd innoguration. So many people from different backgrounds and causes including veterans, black panthers, hippies and soon to be drafted middle america. Of course there was an underground, but it can in the form of campus type handouts, and you'd read them or pitch them into the trash. There were speakers and hawkers, You could listen or move on.

What I'm trying to say, people come to D.C. to celebrate our right to assemble and our freedom of speech.

Cindy is an american, exercising her rights, an because of that she has the respect and admiration from those who see her plight and understand the time is past due to make a stand against this invasion.

[rman]

198. Not all criticism is created equal

By far most of those who criticize ANSWER do not criticize Cindy.

Much of the criticism of ANSWER comes from people who did go to the DC demonstration.

I'm assuming you do know what the criticism is. (The fact that ANSWER has Stalin-style communist associations is not the main criticism.)

I think that the fact that ANSWER has organized this demonstration does not place them above criticism.

[rman]

199. Why lump criticism of Cindy and of criticism of ANSWER together? nt

[Cocoa]

200. being "in the business" seems to be a double-edged sword

yes, one can gain perspective from being in the protest business, but apparently from this post one can lose perspective too.

[Ellipsis]

213. I can see it now...

in the high school counselors office...

Your propensities are
Veterinarian, Business, custodial, or activist.

...Yadda yadda Veterinarian schools... Bidness schools... Vocational programs or

........ Berkley.

How does one become an Activist? What defines one?

My exposure to Cindy has been through the internet. I have not met her and yet I have a sense of her. When she was arrested and not handcuffed, I teared up. Because as someone said... it was RESPECT. She didn't make this choice. She has been thrust into it. She's not backing away. I 'd guess... she endures and not enjoys the media and has allowed herself to be put into the situation for the simple cause of her son and as an extension of her son to his fellow soldiers to do what she can to watch their backs. The current administration has built these giant walls of connections and politics to prevent the MSM to put out the truth... and the little lady on the unicycle rode right through. She does her part, Mr. Pitt does his, we do ours, always must it be non-violent.

For the first time one can be an activist from home with keyboards the internet ...and be effective. For the first time... individuals who don't like activism have come into our homes to stop descent. THIS is the line crossed.

Kinda.
Once you do one project you have the cookbook for the next. You post-mort-em what you did wrong, brainstorm how-to be more effective. (The many minds of DU) You get to know the talent and the ballast and surround yourself with positive individuals you trust.

Don't burn out... even Neil young says that now.

Rinse and repeat.

Peace

[Inland]

201. I managed to avoid the uber-stupid of Marxism.

Yes, I know it's not much, but it seems to me that for both me and ANSWER, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Besides agreeing that the war is bad, all ANSWER provides is their own opportunism. After all, the policy solution in my mind is peace. What's the policy solution for a Trotskyite? A people's state with the means of production controlled by the proletariat, or whatever incantation is popular nowadays.

Yes, it's true, I am motivated only by extraordinary circumstances, unlike the more or less permanent froth of the permanent trotskyite revolutionaries.

But that makes me MORE like Cindy Sheehand, not less, and I might point out that she managed to rock the US before the help of other, less admirable groups.

[Lerkfish]

203. you make some valid points, will, but...

I disagree with the mindset that DUers must follow a litmus test before expressing themselvs...


for example:

Will: How many of you have organized a protest?

Worked for an activist organization beyond the volunteer level?

Done significant coalition-building?

Lerkfish: I'm guessing that's going to be a low percentage, even among DUers. does that mean they don't work real hard and attend other protests or offer support in other ways?
Are the contributions of those who don't organize being belittled or considered unworthy?
Just askin.
There are some of us who CANNOT participate to the degree you require, not because we don't wish to, but because there are laws and company policies that prevent that very thing.


Will: Been required to deal regularly with the press, and have your words reported in newspapers and on radio/TV?
Lerkfish: not in a way that you'd recognize, but yes. Do I get to have an opinion, now?

Will: Been arrested for your beliefs?
Lerkfish: Was every who marched this weekend arrested? Do you only allow those who are arrested to express their opinion? That's going to be a tough one, as its a random thing to some degree. Should we call the cops and request to be arrested so we can post an opinion?

In case you've gotten this far, I will say that I completely support Cindy, I understand the difficulties with organizing, and I appreciate the prickly situation with ANSWER.
So, in effect, I agree with your POINTS. I do not agree with your implied muzzle.

[Pacifist Patriot]

206. I guess it's a matter of interpretation. I didn't take it as an implied...

muzzle. I understood it to be an attempt to get people with whom he disagreed to perhaps see the argument from a different perspective. I didn't see it as a litmus test for posting at all.

And I certainly didn't see an accusation of Cindy Sheehan/ANSWER criticism being unAmerican as stated by someone else above.

[Lerkfish]

208. you have a valid point, as well.

I've reread his OP, and I can see where I may have misinterpreted it.

there IS an implication, though, whether intentional or not, by rhetorically grilling someone as to whether they have been arrested, organized protests, etc. that their input is not welcome.

So I did read it the first time through, and apparently I am not the only one.

[WilliamPitt]

219. Bingo

[DaytonOHDem]

232. Don't worry about Cindy. She can handle all the crap that is being

thrown at her. I do not know her personally but I know that anyone who has lost a child, that is the worst thing that can ever happen to you. I use to hear people say that but I never totally understood what they meant until my sister lost her oldest daughter to cancer 2 years ago. She was my beautiful niece and I was with her when she died at home. My sister will never go through anything worse in her lifetime. So don't worry about Cindy, I am sure she can handle it. She's already handled the death of her son and she is doing a hell of a job if you ask me.

[Ellipsis]

240. Actually, I don't think she's had much time to grieve.

I do think this is a coping mechanism for her, and benefit for the U.S.

Will's not worried about Cindy. He's only provoking thought. She has the worlds largest support group and tons of hugs.

Time heals.
Peace

[Laurab]

228. Thanks, that's what I meant to say in my earlier post

I guess it is a matter of interpretation. Thanks for saying it far better than I did. I chose to see it as one person's perspective, and certainly not a litmus test. I dunno...the attacks on the OP seem similar to the attacks I've seen on Cindy - she's "blowing her own horn", she "just likes the publicity", and of course much worse from the freepers. As a mom, I know EXACTLY what is driving Cindy. I can't imagine losing either of my kids, but it's the worst thing that can happen to a parent.

Cindy amazes me - the way she has dealt with her loss is incredible and inspiring. I know I could never do what she has done, and I am just in awe of the woman.

No matter who was at the rally - what was in the news was ANTI-WAR and Cindy Sheehan - I'm not talking Cspan, where they're preaching to the choirs of either party, I'm talking about the corporate news. The numbers were effective - what "Joe six-pack" sees is not on C-span.

[mistertrickster]

209. Some protestors are (gasp!) 'SOCIALISTS?' Oh my gosh, what's

next? Evolutionists? Atheists? Negroes?

The left-wing is the only group saying "get out now." Even MoveOn.com isn't saying the "now" part.

It's time for a little more "by any means necessary" and a little less "I'm purer than you," that is, if we're really interested in saving American lives in Iraq and less interested in "being right."

(A misguided insistence on) Perfection is STILL the enemy of progress.

[mistertrickster]

211. Saul Alinsky on radical organizers (From "Reville for Radicals")

America's radicals are to be found wherever and whenever America moves close to the fulfillment of its democratic dream. Whenever America's hearts are breaking, there American radicals were and are. America was begun by its radicals. America was built by its radicals. The hope and future of America lies with its radicals.

What is the American radical? The radical is that unique person to whom the common good is the greatest personal value. He is that person who genuinely and completely believes in mankind. The radical is so completely identified with mankind that he personally shares the pain, the injustices, and the sufferings of all his fellow men.

[grace0418]

215. Cindy Sheehan is my hero. I have never met her but I hope to one day.

And when I do I will hug her and tell her how much her bravery means to me, how inspiration she is, and how much I wish there were a million more people like her. I cannot believe ANYONE here on DU would be saying one negative word about her.

[mzmolly]

217. I haven't seen the criticism of Cindy. And regarding ANSWER

they did not single handedly throw together anything, they had help. However, while I appreciate what they did at the rally - I think they lacked focus and that is detrimental to the "cause." When we bring people together to protest the war, frankly it should be an atmosphere that is welcome to everyone who protests the war - EVERYONE.

[hiley]

227. Everyone

sounds great to me too.:)

[jonnyblitz]

238. some here have turned on Cindy because she criticized their

favorite pro-war DEM...such as (gasp) HILLARY. she committed a sacrelidge.

[mzmolly]

242. Cindy can criticize who she wants.

She'll always have my support.

[jonnyblitz]

247. i agree. she could criticize anybody i liked and it wouldn't

matter because it's not about me.

[texpatriot2004]

236. I am a Cindy fan. Thank you Cindy Sheehan.n/t

[haydukelives]

237. Another great post

Thank you WilliamPitt

[Solly Mack]

239. Been arrested for your beliefs? Yes. Almost died for them too

Bunch of yahoos tried to run me down after a civil rights march in Georgia...got saved by a group of men. They ran out and snatched me out of the way...just in time too.


I respect Cindy Sheehan

I thought the protest was awesome and was mighty jealous I couldn't be there.