I am NOT doing another International Answer march again

[LynneSin]

I've been reading the posts here at DU and around the internets and I'm finished supporting anything this group has to do.

Back in late June 20th, United for Peace & Justice, a mainly anti-war group, started to post about a protest upcoming in September and how they wanted to make it one giant size rally in DC. Hence why I started to organize a DU gathering to go along with the protest. UPJ was an off-shoot from International Answer (IA) because they wanted to focus mainly on the war and NOT on all the additional 'human right' issues around the globe. They knew that many of the people who were coming from across the country to these protests were there because they opposed the war.

Somehow, IA took over the September protest, changed the schedule so that there were speakers going on until 2pm even though UPJ website had speakers at 11:30 and the March Kick-off at 12:30. And I even remember when around 1pm we (many of us from DUers) heard the announcement that "The march will start soon but please stay to listen to more speakers" announcement. Basically IA shut UPJ completely out of the picture.

I also watched the protest (or tried to stomach) on C-Span and it was a sham. I was there in DC to protest the war & administration and yet IA used that platform to promote additional causes, some of which I don't necessarily support. And instead of giving coverage to both speakers and the march itself, the entire coverage was geared to the speakers.

So I've read the posts and I've seen the comments about "Who else could organize a protest that unites 500,000 people together". Well, personally, I don't think IA will ever get that amount again because I am not alone in my disgust over their using US to promote their pet causes. Along with IA/UPJ protests, I've had the thrill of attending the "March for Choice" in April 2004 sponsored by Planned Parenthood/Naral. That was an amazing gathering of close to 1million people where the organizers stayed true to their message which was pro-choice/anti-bush. There were no Pro-Palestinian speakers, there were no free-mumia speakers. They had 2 hours of speakers who stuck with the message of No More Bush and Choice. But unfortunately PP/NARAL only do these things every few years (I'm hoping for one in 2006) so now what?

Right now I think there are 2 groups that could take over hosting the protests in DC. The first is a very obvious choice and that would be Move-On.org. I'm not sure why they haven't gotten involved with organizing protests, but I think they have the ability to put one together and their message is the same one that fits all of us: No More War/Bush. The other choice would be for UPJ to do these protests alone, without International Answer. They know how to put these together and provided that they stick with the clear, single message, they should have no problem with a successful protest.

International Answer is using us. They know that there are millions of us across the country who are against the war and against George Bush. So they put together these protests saying they're fighting the war and then push their pet projects on to us. It's time to tell them to either stick with the message or at least do some truth in advertising with your protests. IA knows that they would probably get about 400-500 people if they built a protest simply on 'Free-Mumia' or 'Pro-Palestine' so they use the anti-war theme to take advantage of us.

Say what you will about the overwhelming numbers and how the police messed around with the parade route, but International Answer is NOT the answer for future protests

[MADem]

1. Yeah, what she said!!! nt

[JaneQPublic]

36. Free the Cuban Five!!!

;)

[Melodybe]

88. kicked and recommended, I was there I and agree 100%

[Walt Starr]

2. Recommended

I'm hoping somebody else will step up to the plate.

If ANSWER had not been running it, I bet there would have been more than 1,000,000.

[Walt Starr]

3. Recommended

I'm hoping somebody else will step up to the plate.

If ANSWER had not been running it, I bet there would have been more than 1,000,000.

[jonnyblitz]

25. I disagree. ANSWER nationwide provided very cheap

transportation to and from the rally. I know MANY people who wouldnt have made it if it werent for ANSWER. not everybody can afford to travel there by normal means and spend the weekend in hotels. just in my area alone, ANSWER usually has two or three buses going to DC, but this time there was 7. I took one of them.

[LynneSin]

34. I think the local peace groups sponser the buses

I know in Delaware its our local peace group, which has no affliation with ANSWER that sponsers the buses. But it could be different in your area.

[MaineDem]

66. Peace groups here provided the buses from Maine

I never actually heard of ANSWER's involvement until I read it here shortly before Saturday.

Thanks for all you did, Lynne. I understand how you feel. It seemed (to one watching it on C-SPAN) like a very different type of event than the march we took part in back in April of '04 for Women's Lives.

[YouthInAsia]

4. I agree with you 10000000%.

and you know what the protest really needed?????? MORE COWBELL!!!!!!

[obxhead]

5. klink

:toast:

[SlowDownFast]

6. It's such a simple concept, what you say.

I can't understand why it is so hard for some folks to understand that ANSWER is fucking it up.

It has nothing to do with whether you agree with IA's coalition positions or not.

It's about political marketing and being in touch with mainstream America.

[ultraist]

102. "It's about political marketing and being in touch with mainstream America

I agree. The movement MUST reach out to the mainstream. Diluting the message, with fringe causes, will only deter the masses from joining in.

It's important to stay on message!

[MisterP]

7. ANNND add another tick mark to Rove's tally list

[Richard Steele]

11. Pfft.

[bicentennial_baby]

8. good

glad to hear it. :eyes:

[tlsmith1963]

9. You Hit it On the Nose

ANSWER shouldn't have tricked people. They changed the schedule around & told people that the march area was too jammed for them to leave the ANSWER podium area when it wasn't. It isn't cool to lie. You don't do that to people, you just don't.

Tammy

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. We must become one strong left wing body, not scattered little bits

Great post, LynneSin. I'd like to comment on the topic.

This topic somehow causes me to think that the biggest difference between right wingers and left wingers is that right wingers will forego their minor differences for the "good" of the group, while left wingers all want to chest bang their own causes and end up divisive. Remember, united we stand, divided we fall.

I agree with you that with the serious condition this nation is in the hands of the right wingers, with corporate fascists bleeding us all dry, with neo-fascists censoring everything, and everyone afraid to speak, we need to put our other causes on HOLD and focus on this one instead.

I know that people have their own little separate interests, and I'm not saying they shouldn't, but if we SCATTER ourselves with our own "smaller" interests, we will be helping the right wing far more than if we actually joined their campaigns, because we will be making ourselves non-existent.

We MUST all focus on our primary goal: to rid this nation of the right wing scourge which has been hurting the helpless, the needy, the ill, the old, the poor, the middle class, children, immigrants, blacks, and all who are not rich. We can't fight this if we fight amongst ourselves *AND* waste time focusing on outside issues, rather than those of this country. We have to make our country healthy first. Right now it's ridden with right wing cancer.

Remember what people are told when they board a plane: put your oxygen mask on before you put oxygen masks on your children. The reason for this is, that if you don't take care of yourself first, there will not be a you to take care of your children. We need to do that. We need to heal our very, very sick country first. Once our country is healed, then, and only then, should we start focusing on outside problems.

[tlsmith1963]

22. Exactly

That's exactly what I've been trying to say. If we don't stay focused on one big issue, like Iraq, the Right will win in the end. And if the Right wins, *no one* will be able to protest for their "smaller" causes anymore. The neocons will put a stop to that.

Tammy

[MADem]

38. Well said n/t

[sniffa]

12. but the peace movement wiLL die

without your DU meetups. :cry:

[LynneSin]

13. What, I see you for a full 20 minutes

:eyes:

I'm retiring for awhile. Let someone else have all the 'fun' so I can enjoy the protests

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. Thanks for your post

Some people here think they need to defend ANSWER in order to defend the protest; but as you so succinctly put it, ANSWER is using the average Americans who are disgusted with this war to promote their extreme pro-Palestine and Free Mumia and etc. agenda.

[LynneSin]

18. Thank you, I'm torn by all this because I want to support these protests

but at what cost?

I have my values and I realized that from time to time I might hear a speaker who's values do not equal mine. But when they have more unrelated speakers then related ones and especially ones that do not support my core values, I have to make a stance

[John Q. Citizen]

15. Yawn...

[ElectroPrincess]

16. We'll miss you ...

We don't have to all march lock step to protest the war. I'll be there and yes, I will miss you because every voice helps.

[LynneSin]

19. I'm just hoping that if enough of us complain changes will be made

I don't want the protests to stop, I just want the message to stay focused.

Every Friday now for the past year+ my local peace group in Delaware stands vigil at the corner of a local busy intersection on Friday nights to protest the war. They have people who volunteer with a variety of other groups but each week on that Friday they come together and unite against one thing - the war.

More and more I realize how much sense that peace group makes and how little sense Answer does.

[Elidor]

17. How about Move On and United for Peace & Justice working together?

Between them, they could cover much more ground.

Interesting perspective on the Answer thing. I'd not realized all that was going on. Hey, at least they didn't invite PETA, lol.

[mandyky]

20. Thank You!

I personally like some issues ANSWER addresses, BUT they dilute the message and make us all targets of the RW media spin machine. But I also know how rural, Middle America thinks, and this kinda crap won't endear us to Joe and Suzy 6 Pack, when they might be persuaded otherwise. We can only introduce so much truth to people believing BushCo's lies at one time, bombarding them with all the "not focussed" issues just makes a mess.

[eggman67]

29. Y'know

I saw this same entirely correct argument on another thread. Someone explained the importance of "Joe Barcalounger" and the response he got was "Screw Joe Barcalounger, we don't need him." or words to that effect.

This is the kind of thinking that has the Democratic party relegated to an ever shrinking minority.

Guess what folks - we need him. Quite a few Joe Barcaloungers vote. Quite a few Joe Barcaloungers are politically on the fence. Most Joe Barcaloungers aren't ideologues, but when the step in that voting booth with an scary image of some freak with "Free Mumia" sign as their image of the democratic party, they're gonna pull the lever they think is safe. You can be as pure as you want but if you frighten middle America you're gonna be a very pure loser.

This is the difference, Bush tells Karl go get me Joe Barcaloungers vote, and we say sure take 'im, we don't fuckin need 'im.

[ruggerson]

21. Couldn't agree with you more

and to those who don't see that ANSWER is using them: open your eyes and ears.

[tuvor]

23. "Feeling used". Pretty much sums it up. Whoever can't understand that...

...ehhhhh, they're not worth explaining to.

[jonnyblitz]

27. yeah, we arent worth it.

don't bother...we aren't as good as you.

[tuvor]

30. "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

[jillan]

24. What gets me about ANSWER is that I supported them

just because they were oppossed to the bushit.
Then I find out their true agenda.
I don't think spreading anti-semitism is good for this country, or this world.
We are trying to find PEACE, not more hatred.

[matt819]

26. Thanks for the analysis

I'd been on the mailing lists for all these organizations, but began to realize I could no longer figure out who did what or what they stood for. Sure, they were all liberal, left-leaning, etc. And that's fine. But the constant automtated e-mails and shout-outs for this bill or that - well, it just got a bit too tiresome. I've now opted out of all mailing lists. It's a shame, really, because I share your views. My primary concern is No More War/Bush. Having the "usual suspects" up on the podium spouting the same nonsense they've been spouting for a generation is just pointless. Frankly, I wouldn't have to work much to care less than I already do for Mumia or Palestinians or a whole host of other causes. To tack these on to the very clear anti-war/anti-* message is unfortunate. Cindy Sheehan was a breath of fresh air, but it seems that she, too, has been co-opted. What a loss.

[Mich Otter]

31. My only mailing list is MoveOn.

They are focused on taking America back from the right wing agenda. After we get the country back on track, we can start getting results in campaigns like the ones ANSWER advocates.

[matt819]

55. I'll probably resubscribe

But at the moment I think I need a break from all of these groups. I don't need reminding that things suck.

[Peace Patriot]

28. I disagree. Please see my post at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4905558

...another thread on this topic.

I have to laugh at what people think "mainstream America" is--or who think that "mainstream America" needs to propagandized with a cleansed message (cleansed of any unusual or marginalized opinions) to be against Bush or his goddamned war.

What "mainstream America" needs is empowerment and enfranchisement--and you might be surprised what it's thinking.

Nothing the ANSWER speakers said is going to turn anybody for or against the war. The great majority of Americans decided against the war long ago--before they invasion. They just couldn't get their votes counted!

And what is wrong with hearing the Palestinian view? We never get to hear it. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is very important to the Iraq situation and to mideast peace. We need to hear all views. I think the American public is actually quite good at sorting out the truth.

[mandyky]

33. Trumad was qquoting an article at DKOS

Come on stop sticking up for ANSWER before they mess things up worse than they aleady have. Did you watch the CSpan coverage? Try that and get back to us!

[mongo]

32. I hear ya.

But to me the biggest problem is that cspan covered these fringe speakers instead of showing the mass turn out for the march.

The coverage made us look like the lunatic fringe. That's certainly not who I rode out on a bus with, or typical of the other people I met.

[flordehinojos]

35. i remember in an earlier post your excitement about the upcoming 9/24

events in DC.

It am sorry about the let down of the 9/24 events as they unfolded.
I watched the events unfold on DEMOCRACY NOW (and perhaps some on C-Span) and I did hear the people saying "the march will start soon but first ...more speakers" and then it seemed like people couldn't move because there were too many people on the streets in DC.

From this side of the television...it felt great that so many voices were being raised against bush and his war--and yes, some causes, speakers and issues may have fit better in another venue under other circumstances....but from this side of the t.v. it felt like there was a massive voice of protest against injustice anywhere and for any reason.

So many injustices, so many violations of human rights ... so much unhappiness...

i was shocked at seeing a 26 de Julio banner among the people and thought, wow! now those cuban-american rightwingers in Miami will have a mouthfull to say about cindy sheehan and the anti-war protest.
having left cuba because of a dictatorship, and supporting this protest (at least with my good energy vibes) this protest against this bush-boy dictator in the u.s.a., i thought it was awckward, to say the least, to see a July 26th flag in the crowd and wondered if however was holding it had been planted by some bush rightwinger just so as to confuse people.

anyhow, i hear your disappointment--but at the same time, having only watched from this side of the television, i felt like there was a powerful voice--the voice of the people--being lifted against our tyrannical, immoral, coward, imbecile son of bush--the bush boy sitting at the oval office.

[LynneSin]

58. Everything with DU/DC was amazing - I was definately NOT disappointed

And most of the information I gathered about the protest came from UPJ's website. But UPJ allowed IA to shove them out of the picture and extend the speaker time to include the more radical speakers that personally, main of us do NOT support.

And I'm not going to silence my voice because of my disgust with IA. I'll simply find different avenues including local ones back here in Delaware/Philly region.

[bicentennial_baby]

78. you were pretty amazing yourself

your behavior that is...but not in the way that you mean.

[LynneSin]

83. I'm so glad you were able to make it

sorry we missed you the next day though.

[DaveT]

37. I marched in Los Angeles

and the ANSWER message there also testing the unity of our assembly.

Personnally, I think we have way too many speeches at protests anyway. I sincerely believe the most effective demonstration would have NO speeches at all -- the march is the message.

At best, you can say that the exotic single digit issues being advanced at a peace march don't really hurt anything because the mainstream Joe Barcalounger isn't paying attention to CSPAN anyway.

A march for verifiable voting should be the next big push -- but the people with the time and energy to organize a big protest tend to be the folks who like to wear exotic clothing and carry foreign flags.

MoveOn would be the perfect clearing house for big protests. I hope its members (I've given money before, too) will start to agitate for that idea.

[eggman67]

46. Well so much for nobody watches CSPAN anyway

Quite a few folks watch The Daily Show though....

[sandnsea]

52. Nat Summit to Save Our Elections

Not a march, but it would be great to get a big turnout.

http://summit.oregonvrc.org/

[EstimatedProphet]

39. OK

We'll yell louder then to make up for the loss.

So what if ANSWER had several different issues they were promoting.

What was the message during the march? Antiwar.

What was the message that the media took home? Antiwar.

Haven't heard anyone talking about "Free Mumia" in the press. I didn't back it, and I didn't support it by marching. I supported the antiwar march, just like everyone else in the march did.All the signs were antiwar or antiBush, and that's what was picked up by the news.

[johnnie]

40. My thoughts

No one watched the C-span coverage anyway except for a bunch of people looking for the march. The MSM didn't really cover the rally or the march. Cindy getting arrested was more news than ANSWER got.

If ANSWER plans these things, then other people will have to step up to the plate and find ways to get the true message out to the people and not rely on ANSWER.

[niallmac]

41. Well?!? Why doesn't Move On dot Org Organize a March?

They seem to have a lot of resources. I trust them.

[rman]

76. Now that's a good question - WHY DON'T THEY?

Why would a mainstream progressive organization with broad popular support not be able to get a permit for a national demonstration, where a smaller organization with fringe left leanings (associations with Stalin/Mao style communism) can? Or why would they not ask for it?

[Autonomy]

42. I really don't like ANSWER

but if they're involved in a cooperative protest again, I will still attend. I agree it would be better if we could minimize their presence. But until that time...

[bear425]

43. I'm with you. I think it's time for MoveOn.org or another group

to organize an event. And I think it should come soon.

I've been thinking that the next one should be on November 2, 2005 -the day that the presidency was stolen again - one year ago.

There's enough time to organize, and we will still have momentum. What do you think about this date?

[EstimatedProphet]

44. Contact MoveOn and see if they're interested, or planning anything

Something may be scheduled, you never know...

[Spiffarino]

45. I'm with you on this

It's foolish to mix so many agendas when all most people want is to end Bush's war. If ANSWER folks want to march, that's great, but it isn't a showcase. Too many lives are at stake right now with Bush undoing the progress of the last 75 years. First things first.

[Carni]

70. Just plain old IMPEACH BUSH

Does the trick for me!

Lately I cannot seem to find ANYONE who likes bush/left wingers/right wingers/war apologists/anti-war/people who have no clue what left or right even is...you ask them and they roll their eyes and talk about what a horrendous President bushit is.

All these speeches and causes just confuse the process and divide the people IMO--the first and foremost goal in my mind is get rid of bush and cheney and then try to repair the damage these corrupt morons have done to our country.

[Tom Joad]

47. ANSWER has it problems, but supporting justice in Palestine...

is NOT one of them.

Supporting the ending of support for an illegal military occupation, supported by Democrats & Republicans for decades, is central to the goal of peace in the Middle East.

There are some who work for Peace & Justice.

Others, unfortunately, really seem to be working only for peace and quiet, for only a change in the party affiliation of those who wish to carry on the status quo.

[norml]

53. I agree, support for Israel should be withdrawn. AIPAC loves PNAC.

However, I agree in many ways with the OP, and with the unspoken comment of Jon Stewart.

There were too many side issues that I agree with put on the center stage.

Those issues might have been OK to mention in passing, but should not have overwhelmed the event.

There were too many side issues that I don't agree with put on the center stage.

I don't like Communist/Marxist Parties.

I see such Parties as Totalitarian.

Our little UNL NORML/HEMP group was paid a visit by The Socialist Workers Party.

They wanted us to work with them.

Everyone except the guy (english department status seeker trying to look cool by welcoming communists to UNL) who invited them thought they were nuts.

Other than that one visit we never had anything to do with them.

We did sometimes work with Amnesty International and an Ecology group on campus called Ecology Now, however at our events we were always in charge.

We may have mentioned other issues in passing, however we stayed mainly focused on NORML/HEMP issues at our meetings, at our booths, at our rallies, and in our testimonies before the Nebraska Legislature.

Maybe I could help with a few tips from some of our rallies.

One thing for sure, we always had a balance of music, speeches, and marching during the day, and we always had a fund raising concert that night.

We'd get the hall for free.

We'd get the bands to play for free.

I'd run around putting up posters.

We'd make hundreds of dollars every time, and educate a lot of people on the issues in the process.

Might not this be something to do?

[hogwyld]

80. Thank you

When was the free thought society disbanded? Our duty is to inform as many people as possible about injustice and to bring them to our side. The pukes do the same thing. While Palestime may not be "popular" it is important to talk about. After 9/11, even the anti-war crowd was "fringe" but the more we involve people, the bigger we get. Is justice only for the large, popular causes? Everyone, no matter how "extreme" their cause, deserves an audience and to be heard. Answer may not be the best, but they do give a voice to people who would otherwise have none. We should be welcoming in all points of view, not trying to shut them up. After all, we are progressive.

[alittlelark]

48. I would concur - but ONLY due the Cspan coverage.

The C-span coverage made the rally out as a mish mash of disgruntled Americans. It should have been about the 100's of thousands who were AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR.


Every person there was against the Iraq war.


Let's kill the first and foremost demon - then we can work on the minions.

[mike_c]

49. I support ANSWER...

...but I'd also REALLY like to see MoveOn or some other organization step up to the plate and do a similar job organizing marches. I've been to three large west coast antiwar marches in San Francisco-- all before the war (I was out of town this weekend)-- and ANSWER was the primary sponsor of all of them, so I really appreciate their efforts. I also support many of their broader social justice causes.

But as for MoveOn, I suspect they're displaying a bit of the same schizophrenia about the war against Iraq that the Democratic party leadership is experiencing-- it's hard to organize serious opposition to the war when you've been enabling it all along. I don't mean to suggest that MoveOn has been supporting the war, but rather that they view themselves as staunchly allied with the Democratic party, and THAT inhibits their direct participation in antiwar organizing. When they start to hold up that mirror, it will reflect a large number of dems that MoveOn has worked for.

on edit: and LynneSin, please ask yourself how your NOT marching will help achieve an end to the criminal war being perpetrated in our names. How is that not acquiescence, even if only tacit? We'll miss your support in the street.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Brava!

I feel the same. If it had been an anti-war protest, then it would have different. However, it was supposed to be a "US out of Iraq, Bring our Troops home" rally...it fell short. The fact is that there are MANY people whoa re against this war now, but the other "pet projects" did nothing but 'divide and conquer.' It is not to say the other projects are not worthy, but they were not on topic. You don't have a rally about racism and discuss corporate cronyism (even if it has racist tendencies), because it is 'off message!'

[sandnsea]

51. Moveon, Acorn, lots of groups

Moveon pissed me off by putting up that Katrina ad so quickly, but they're 10 times better than ANSWER. Anti-war groups definitely need to stay focused on the war, then eventually hone a clear alternative agenda. But I don't think Mumia and Peltier are ever going to be main points of any broad-based political movement. It's almost like ANSWER purposely went to the furthest extremes they could in picking their hot button issues, I wonder why. I really encourage UPJ and PDA to dump them and organize their own marches in the future.

[sagesnow]

54. Crowd may have been double if ANSWER hadn't been organizing

I have attended 5 antiwar rallies in DC. At the last ANSWER rally I attended in in 2004, my friend and I were so bored and turned off by the ANSWER speakers- we listened to a incomprehensible, recorded message from Mumia from his jail cell. Bored, we and many other marchers began to wander off toward the start of the march. The police thought the march was starting and herded us to begin marching. ANSWER organizers were upset because they thought that police started the march early. They also were upset that people didn't return to the stage area to hear more of their fringe speakers at the end of a LONG march. Protest veteran friends that I know have not returned for more of their off subject rallies. I think the crowd actually would have been double if Answer had not been the sponsor. I will not go to another ANSWER rally. I wish PDA would pick up where ANSWER left me off.

[Inland]

56. Yep. nt

[bpilgrim]

57. The International Answer Coalition has my support

as the problems are larger than JUST the Iraq war and interconnected.

too bad you can't support the big tent as single issue mandates are not only selfish but ineffective.

peace

[LynneSin]

60. My big tent does not include radical groups including the Free-Mumia

I'm there to support Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement. And although many of this left-leaning groups have my empathy there are many that personally, I don't support whatsoever.

I know that myself and many of us across the country came to DC to protest the War, George Bush and even the horrible response to Katrina/Rita. Many of us felt that the schedule provided by United for Peace & Justice was the one where we would only have an hour worth of speakers and then move on to the march.

I appreciate that there are DUers who are much more to the far left than what I am; maybe I'm just a mainstream kinda gal. But somehow UPJ's schedule was shoved aside so that IA could present speakers that do not represent a large group of us in attendance there. And I think that diversity diluted their message.

If IA wants to give their supports their due - let them setup booths at the protest where they can promote their ideas instead of the microphone. It was the wrong place and the wrong message that IA was promoting. It diluted our most important message which is to end the war.

[jonnyblitz]

67. dupe..delete

[jonnyblitz]

68. to listen to you, one would swear MUMIA is ALL they talked about

but that is fine. it's your perogative. you can take your ball and all your respectable mainstream friends and go home. the movement will do JUST FINE without you. TRUST ME. :eyes:

[LynneSin]

71. Mumia stands out because IA ruined the only major protest in Philly

by giving 2 hours to the Mumia people when all we wanted was to have our first major anti-war protest in Philadelphia (it was 4th of July weekend when they opted to do Philly instead of the usual DC/NYC). (BTW, the protest was billed as anti-war and ended up being strictly pro-mumia which pissed off plenty)

But I could go on with the list of groups they allowed to have speaker time. And they also ran over the original schedule by 2 hours which means folks who came in for the day wouldn't have a chance to see the Operation Cease Fire concert happening in the mall. I was hoping to be done with the March in time to catch Joan Baez at the concert (she was to perform around 4pm) and yet at 4pm I was barely passed the White House and halfway through the protest. If you give people a schedule of events stick with it. Sure, the cops weren't much help but that's because everyone thought we were going to start marching at 12:30pm, not 2pm.

[EstimatedProphet]

82. "Your" big tent?

ANSWER brought the tent. They fronted the money. In doing that, they get to pick what speakers are there.
The March was antiwar/antiBush, as demonstrated by all the marchers. Free Mumia got so little attention that it's just a blip on the radar.

[jonnyblitz]

65. it has mine also, even more so now.

:thumbsup:

[EstimatedProphet]

81. Well put

[hogwyld]

85. Me Too!

At one time or another, everyone was a member of a "fringe" group. I think our big tent can have everyone inside that is progressive. True justice knows no race, income level, beliefs, etc. Have we become so soft as to expunge anyone with differing thoughts? Free Palestine/Mumia

[ima_sinnic]

59. whatever. yet another rant about ANSWER without an offer to

create an alternative. anyone is free to set a date, apply for the permits, and coordinate all the events, transportation, sanitation, emergency care, and what-not. throwing out the name of organizations that "could" do it is a real big help -- NOT. if you don't like being around the ANSWER people, you really don't want to come to any more major demos, because they and "their type" have been around a lot longer than you and they will always be there. And I don't buy for a second that the march "would have been twice a big without ANSWER." It probably would have been a hell of a lot SMALLER.

Everybody on the planet has a legitimate grievance against BushCo, with the exception of the corporkrats, and they all have the right to speak out. The war in Iraq is not some isolated event with no relationship to anything else. The goal is RESISTANCE, a UNITED FRONT OF RESISTANCE.

So stay home. That'll show "the commies and whackos." :eyes:

for the future: put pressure to bear not only on C-SPAN but all the media to COVER THE MARCH, not just the rally. the problem was C-SPAN (which AT LEAST covered the rally) and especially the entire CORPORATE MEDIA, which did not cover any aspect of the march OR rally.

[EstimatedProphet]

86. Hear hear!

Well stated! If we think the march was dissed by the media, we have to get in the face of the media and make sure they don't do it again!

[TechBear_Seattle]

89. Unfortunately...

Any group that does set a date, apply for the permits and coordinates all the events, transportation, sanitation, emergency care and what-not STILL get shouldered aside by ANSWER. That is what happened with the DC march: the original sponsors open up for volunteers, ANSWER comes in and takes over. It has been happening with almost every anti-war action in the last two and a half years. They are the Scientologists of the left.

[insane_cratic_gal]

61. On Cspan

I turned off the coverage after the main speakers were done and rift raft started coming to the mic; It seems to me, so did the crowd. It was vacant once the march started.

I do agree that the Israel/Palestine issues are important to peace in the ME. Americans usually understand less about the history and how it came to pass. Yet, I agree that the focus should of been on what the intent of the "anti-war protest." was sold as.

Otherwise it's like being a child at a circus all over again. You stand outside the tent with the "Flying pigs pay 25 cents. Of course when you go in it's a Pig with dangling from a contraption with fairy wings on. (that's elaborate) You come out feeling cheated.

It's an understandable sentiment

[WolverineDG]

62. I'm with you, Lynne

I was really disappointed (and bored beyond tears) that we had to stand around for hours instead of marching. I for one, was bored shitless just standing there. Had I not been with the DU crowd, I would have given up & gone back to my hotel.

It would have been one thing if the speakers were ones we could recognize, but they weren't. I said "fuck this" when they announced they were going to put on some POETS. They were already 90 minutes late starting the march & they want to put on POETS? I say next time, if this happens, we take your banner to the head of the march & start the damn march ourselves. :evilgrin:

and for those of you who say "Well come up with your own then," trust me, that is being worked on. ANSWER will NOT be invited.

dg

[LynneSin]

63. Well said!!!

I remember the comment about the Poets and we all started rolling our eyes because we really thought we were to start marching over an hour ago.

[LynneSin]

64. BTW, I never said I would stop being a part of protests

First, there are other groups that organize major protests in DC and if IA isn't involved you better believe I will be there. I will also continue to join in local protests, what better way to help the anti-war/anti-bush rally then to work locally to help keep our states filled with those who support us in our fight to bring our troops home and end the war.

[G_j]

69. the problem with Move On

is that for a long time they have been uncomnfortably quiet about the war and they did not support immediate withdrawal but sort of 'stay the course in a a better way' ala John Kerry.
They did sort of reluctantly support this event though.
They have not been very strong on the "bring them home now" message.

IMO, they may be a little too close to politics.

[ima_sinnic]

72. I highly doubt MoveOn would ever sponsor a march to end the war

--they are actually quite middle of the road, not wanting to rock the boat too much or offend anyone. Look how fast they distanced themselves from "Hitler comparisons," and even apologized!!!!--when a video or ad was submitted by an individual with no ties to MoveOn--and look how those comparisons ring true now, and how we all knew they were true then--but better not to talk about that because "they" will mock us for it, "they" who mock severely wounded war veterans, truth tellers like Howard Dean, grieving mothers, etc. etc. MoveOn is also highly unresponsive to input and suggestions from the rank and file, except when they specifically ask for contributions and votes on a new ad campaign.

[cascadiance]

79. Moveon.org did sponsor and help the Vote For Change Tour...

They did get concert promoters, Sundance Channel, Bruce Springsteen and many artists together to put together that tour right before the election, so I would argue that they do have the capacity to organize the logistics of such marches.

You know, I think this shows one more bad aspect of the Democratic Party congress critters and other politicians not taking a strong stand to echo the feelings of the people on this issue! I bet if they did, Moveon.org would step into line to help organize such events. Like you said, perhaps Moveon.org is trying not to "push Democrats into a corner" towards supporting the anti-war positions without politicians first taking the initiative to do so.

We should all be writing our congress people to say that we want the next set of protests to not be viewed as voices of "fringe elements", but to come from our politicians themselves representing all of our collective voices, and to have such efforts organized by groups that reflect a majority of us.

Now I think A.N.S.W.E.R. or other people should be welcome to attend such rallies, and where they wish to talk to people on their own time, etc. be free to do so, but it would be helpful for the overall rally organization to be done by groups that the mainstream of progressives can all get behind, so that noone feels like they are fuel for Bill O'Reily or Rush Limbaugh cannon fodder.

It's this void of leadership by our Democrat representatives that is leaving us with this "tussle" of who should be organizing our resistance efforts most effectively.

[Czolgosz]

73. Let's do a checklist!

__ I am NOT doing another International Answer march again!
__ I am NOT doing another AFL-CIO march again!
__ I am NOT doing another NARAL march again!
__ I am NOT doing another ACLU march again!
__ I am NOT doing another DLC march again!
__ I am NOT doing another PFLAG march again!

The way some people are splintering over ANSWER, we'll have plenty of chances to each organize our own separate and unique protest marches in the future because we're gonna be out of power for a long time because I assure you that the Halliburton-Republicans and the Pat-Robertson-Republicans don't like each other any more than you like ANSWER but they can stand to be in the same city with one another for a weekend without sniping at each other.

SNAP OUT OF IT! IT WAS A DAMN FINE MARCH AND IF YOU CAN'T GET OVER HOW SOME DETAILS WERE ORGANIZED, GO ORGANIZE YOURSELF ANOTHER MARCH! I'LL COME AND I PROMISE I WON'T BITCH ABOUT IT AFTERWARD.

[sniffa]

74. you don't understand

this is aLL about her. if everyone just does as she does, we'LL be fine. now get back in Line.

[OzarkDem]

96. Its really important to have an impact

Better organized rallies with focus and a quality program will attract more voters to the cause.

[rman]

75. So, opposition to ANSWER is more important then opposition to Bush?

Not that i'm happy with ANSWER - far from it. But it's no reason not to go to a demonstration.
It's the RW talking heads who make a big issue out of ANSWER, implying that anyone who goes to a demonstration organized by ANSWER does actively support anything that ANSWER stands for.

Why would you want to play by the RW's rules?

[Czolgosz]

77. Secret note to Karl Rove: The protesters will stand up to your right-wing

counter-protesters (all 300 of 'em), the protesters will stand up to bullying police tactics, the protesters will sleep on floors, the protesters will take grueling cross-country bus rides, the protesters from the Gulf states will surmount natural disasters to march against the war, but if you invite a Palestinian or a socialist they'll run away crying like a bunch of 4 year olds with skinned knees.

[Catrina]

84. I couldn't agree more

The media gave NO coverage to the march at all ~ and I was not even aware that ANSWER was in charge of this whole thing.

Here, and in other places where I had friends who went to the march, buses were provided by local groups, not by ANSWER.

Why is no credit given to the all the different Veteran's groups who got people to the march, eg?

I would love to have seen some of the Iraq War Veterans, or the Vietnam Veterans against the war, or the Military Families etc. speak out against the Bush administration's war. These are the groups I thought were responsible for getting people to DC. Those are the people I received information from regarding the march, and there was no mention of ANSWER.

I'm with you, if ANSWER is organizing another march, I see no point in going. I'd rather work locally and stay focused on ending the war, and then work towards ridding this government of corruption and cronyism and warmongering. IF we could do that, a lot of the other problems would take care of themselves.

Since there was illness in my family, I couldn't go and depended on media coverage. From what I saw, there was no march ~ if I were a conspiracy theorist I would think Karl Rove did an excellent job of making sure anyone who wasn't actually in DC, (like millions of people) either tuned in to C-Span and saw a bunch of screaming, fanatics, and quickly tuned out, or they had no idea anyone was opposing the war that weekend, and that's a shame.

I agree with those who say there probably would have been more people there were it not for experiences with ANSWER.

If they really cared about ending the war, that's what they would have focused on and would never have droned on and delayed the march the way they did.

One thing is for sure, whether you support them or don't, they are dividers, and that's a fact, like it or not, and they definitely have the rightwingers all excited about being able to 'prove' that Cindy supporters are all 'scary commies'. They're having a field day with that coverage!! They couldn't have 'faked it' better themselves.

I have no problem with those who support their methods, it's just that I think whenever you are trying to sell something, how you present it will determine how successful you will be. You certainly wouldn't choose bad publicity unless you wanted to fail.

Lives are stake, and ANSWER it is apparent, is causing a lot of division among those who oppose the war. Why is that? I think it's a little odd how they are able to get permits so easily, while from what I'm seeing here, permits are hard to get. Guess I need to do a little research ~

[EstimatedProphet]

87. One point:

"The media gave NO coverage to the march at all ~ and I was not even aware that ANSWER was in charge of this whole thing."

Then how was ANSWER a liability to our side?

[sniffa]

90. don't bother

Let them hannitize their shorts aLL they want.

untiL they find another group, or they themseLves organize for such a march, they can fuck off and die for aLL i care.

[jonnyblitz]

91. i agree.

:thumbsup:

[sniffa]

92. thanks

:hug:

i'm quite sick of these peopLe, and i'm being OVERLY poLite in my characterizations of them (or in a few instances, my direct responses to them).

[Binka]

98. Hey Guys I'm Loving You Sniffa, Blitz, Pilgrim, Pacifist Patriot

And the very few others that are speaking the truth to power.

Remember these same naysayers would have said the same shit about Malcolm and probably Martin as well.

:toast: You are fighting the good fight brothers and sisters. I am doing my part over here in Ole Yurope.

P.S. EstimatedProphet and ElectroPrincess :loveya: too!

[Catrina]

93. Because the only coverage

that was available to most people, which was C-Span, covered ONLY ANSWER's rally, and never covered the march.

The rest of the media, as usual, barely mentioned it. The only one who did, (other than the crawls at the bottom of the screen) Aaron Brown, responding to email complaints about the lack of coverage, said that it was 'not a media conspiracy, just that Rita was more important'.

[rucky]

94. I don't give a shit about these spats and inner-political b.s.

You organize a whatever. Tens of thousands of people show up. They're all true believers - committed enough to march. They're not doing it for themselves. They're doing it because of the message a large gathering sends to the powers that be and the public at large. There is no disputing that this was an anti-war. Those who needed to get the message got it (with plenty of distortion from the media, as expected).

Nobody gives a shit about the speakers, the words, or definately the inner-workings of its organizers except for the people involved. But I've already said that it's not for them. It's so we can have cool photos of mass amounts of people carrying signs and banners. So other people can say "look at those freaks" out loud, but no matter how dense you may be, you know these people are your friends and neighbors, and their message isn't really so kooky after all - no matter how tough it may be to swallow. Eventually it sinks in with the hard-headed minority. But it takes a show of numbers (against powerful resistance) to get that message through.

[NMMNG]

99. A-freaking-men

:applause:

[OzarkDem]

95. Agree completely

A rally that was more focused and better run would probably attract more Dem leaders and more coverage.

Heck, I have no experience, but I'll volunteer to help. It can't be that hard to get a permit, rent some tents and a music & PA system and put together some guest speakers.

[rman]

97. Would NO demonstration be better the one with ANSWER?

If so, then how would that be better - i mean for who would it be better?

We have yet to come up with an alternative organization to organize such a large demonstration. As long as we don't have an alternative, we can choose between ANSWER and nothing, wrt to organizing demonstrations.

While i agree with much of your criticism of ANSWER, i don't see how it is a reason not to demonstrate against Bush and the war.

[H2O Man]

100. That isn't the choice.

It isn't limited to two choices.

[rman]

104. Then what are the other options?

[deutsey]

101. I sympthize but don't agree

I know how you feel about ANSWER, but I've been to too many of these mass protests to realize there are many good things that develop out of these events despite the ANSWER agenda.

This past demonstration, for example, brought out a number of people in my community who had never been to a demonstration before (these were mainly older folks, too). There's a write up in Mother Jones in which the writer also says he encountered many "first-timers" at this demonstration than at previous ones (http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2005/09/katrina_and_cindy.html)

I agree with what author Russell Banks (who helped to create Not In Our Name) told me about the need for bringing together a wide plurality to maintain a mass movement:

Twichell's husband, Russell Banks, of course, is among the leading American writers and artists who are outspoken dissidents of Bush's corporatist administration. In response to a question I sent to him, Banks gave the following insight into his role as a literary activist: "I tried to help hone the language of the NION text so that it would be an umbrella statement that would let us bring together as many different people and groups opposed to the Bush policies after 9/11 as possible without softening our criticism of that policy. I think we did a pretty good job of it, although any number of conservative and neo-liberal critics have tried to invalidate the statement by pointing to some of the extreme left groups that managed to find shelter under that umbrella. I've had to defend myself against the old smear tactics of guilt by association -- in this case my association through NION with aging hippies, old commies, and a certain number of idiots and fools. But if this is to be a mass movement, and it is, then we're going to find ourselves cheek-by-jowl with lots of folks we might not find at a white-wine-and-cheese reception at a smart liberal arts university. Too bad."

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/02/27_twichell.html

[Binka]

103. Nice Thoughtful Post deutsey

Great quotes! Thank you.

[Peace Patriot]

105. Oh, for pete's sake, have you nothing worse to complain about than

boring speakers, or hearing opinions you don't like?

We had our extremists, and fanatics, and odd causes, and people who acted out, and flag-burners, and blood-pourers, and hours and hours and hours of boring, ranting speakers in the '60s, too, and it did NOTHING to retard the antiwar movement. The mothers with baby-strollers and men in business suits STILL participated in antiwar marches, and we still, eventually, won the day (although the war machine came back and bit us all in the butt in 2003!).

The biggest beef I've heard against ANSWER is that they allow people to speak up for the Palestinians. Well, so what? It's a viewpoint that Americans don't normally get to hear. It is severely suppressed by our war profiteering corporate news monopolies. And understanding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is vital to understanding the Iraq war and the entire Middle East tinder box. Why suppress the Palestinian side of it?

This obsession with ANSWER and its roster of speakers makes me very suspicious that unspoken agendas are at work here. One that I suspect is fear of open discussion of Israel's unjust and illegal actions against the Palestinians, and loss or reduction of the U.S. support of Israel. Another is loss of American taxpayers' support of our humongous military machine.

Well, if that's the case, then I suggest that, instead of trying to shut ANSWER's speakers down, you put your energy into changing Israel's rightwing government--and into changing this one, as well. Put your energy into exposing Diebold's and ES&S's SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code and the loss of transparency and verifiability in U.S. elections!

There is no greater threat to Israel--and no greater threat of American rebellion against military expenditures--than is posed by the Bush Cartel's horrendous behavior.

Let's talk openly about how real peace can be achieved in the Middle East, with all parties participating--instead of trying to exclude one viewpoint.

Israel's rightwing government HARMS people. So also do some Palestinians, and their fanatical supporters. And, god knows, so does the U.S.

What did ANSWER ever do to harm ANYONE?

What did ANSWER ever do but organize the most successful antiwar protests ever held in the U.S., and provide speaker slots to highly marginalized and unheard opinions?

WHAT HARM IS THAT?!

Maybe the great American masses would like to hear a few highly marginalized and unheard opinions? Did you ever think of that? Maybe they're fed up with rightwing garbage, and war profiteer propaganda and corporate censorship!

Did anyone POLL the American viewers who watched the C-SPAN coverage, to ask THEM what they thought of it? You're making vast assumptions here, that, because YOU didn't like it, no one else did.

I think you might be surprised at what many Americans are thinking, at this point. (Do a little research--review the issue polls--and you'll see what I mean.) And maybe some of those unwashed viewers were HEARTENED by seeing people with passionate commitment to their causes get a chance to speak up. Maybe it gave them the idea that THEY could speak up, too. How do you know?

For those of you who think that ANSWER gives "us" a bad image, I say: Public relations should have no part in political debate. Let everyone be heard! No one--and I mean no one--has made up their mind about the Iraq war, or Bush, or anything else because of ANSWER's speaker roster.

And if you want to stay home, and not protest this horrible war, because of ANSWER's participation, then that is your choice, but I think you have terribly screwed up priorities.