I'm a Latina, but I think this isn't right

[Seansky]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/092805L.shtml

No one really wins on this one, but the richest of the rich...

On Edit: NO residents should be given the first jobs of rebuilding their own city. The benefits for them and the country to do so go beyond the economic aspects.

On Edit 2: This is probably horrible to say (and promise it wasn't my idea) but someone said to me that the only solution they could come up with for everyone to solve part of the problems was that if every new illegal immigrant (regardless of country) was required to serve 2-4 years in positions such as national guard/firefighters and such protecting the states from disasters, then they could earn a permanent status. Would love to hear opinion on this.

[RagingInMiami]

1. Well you know what Vicente Fox said ...

[noahmijo]

2. latino here I'm with you on this one

I'm all for allowing immigrants into the country who want to work and become Americans and have better lives the whole nine yards, but to use them as cheap labor and then hang them out to dry like you know will happen first off is bad business secondly it once again just shows what a bullshit argument the repukes and their ilk have on their hands when they condone this kind of act.

puro mierda

[Nay]

5. It's shit all right, noahmijo. I also want legal immigrants to be

treated decently, but to import people as little more than slaves to be paid very little and to take needed wages from the hundreds of thousands who have been rendered homeless and dispossessed is simply poking a stick in the eye of every citizen. But it is a way for the Bush administration to let us all know that we, both citizens and legal/illegal immigrants, are no more than used Kleenex to them. I think that's the real message.

[Seansky]

9. It's a tremendously complex subject in every single city in our country

and I see so many impacts taking place so fast no one can keep up with them and no environment seems prepared for these impacts and are reacting way too late--schools, hospitals, transportation, social services, including child abuse, drug addiction)

Yet, there are so many good reasons, including human issues and the history between US and Mexico, to encourage this immigration.

It is a huge issue that isn't going away and no one seems to have answers on how to best handle it.

[chalky]

61. Ah, yes...the return of indentured servitude. Can outright slavery be

far behind?

[Lexingtonian]

3. I think

this fellow Rodriguez seriously overestimates the dependence on Latino labor and there's some wishful thinking about the political pull this hurricane cleanup amounts to.

That being said, I'm all for a lot of Latino immigration into the Deep South. It's the only thing that will truly break down the black/white racial dynamic, segregation, and caste system of the region.

[Seansky]

6. wow, well, where I lived, I saw the African American transformed into

third class by the massive influx of Northern Mexican (I'm not against immigration BTW, being one myself)but my point is more like reaching out a balance without displacing. An entire neighborhood that was African American about 5 years ago is now totally Mexican.

When I volunteer at our general hospital, 9 out of 10 are Northern Mexicans, most uninsured. I help them all the time, and at times wonder how all this could be balanced for no-one to be totally displaced.

It is a very complex subject.

[pitohui]

20. no he doesn't overestimate it

the dependence on latin labor in construction in louisiana has been visible for some time, esp. following storms

they are paid less & are willing to live in conditions that are not legal for legal workers, such as in tents & being kept away from their families

they're here all right & they are not the ones making the $$$ it's going into contractor pockets

many do not speak english, i do not even know if all of them speak spanish as opposed to native languages, i assume they have no idea how they are being taken advantage of

working construction USED to be a good job that allowed a man to support a family but you can't compete w. indentured servants

i would be v. surprised if many of them were actually being paid any $15 an hour, no one would have an issue if they would work for good wages, it's the undercutting of wages that is causing the issues

[Seansky]

21. In my experience, your all your points are correct and the issues are even

more serious when you observe the situations first hand.

[bobbieinok]

26. in OK the Hispanic immigrants are a major target of Pentecostal

churches, which means also preachers saying members must vote republican b/c only repubs are 'christian'/moral

have been told that mayors and city councils of small towns are asking Pentecostal leaders to come and help them b/c the city officials don't have experience working with Hispanics

[Seansky]

27. Now, that's a new one for me...man-what else next.

[bobbieinok]

39. we really need to watch the Pentecostal movement

as the 'charismatic' movement it's either the fastest or one of the fastest growing christian movements in the US and in the world (the Catholic church is concerned about its inroads in Central and South America)

many blacks are members of Pentecostal churches.....in fact, many of the features of a charismatic service are taken from black church features

......some of the ministers resist the RW, others don't

many leaders of African nations are Pentecostals

TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network), run by Paul and Jan Crouch, has stations around the world.......the programs on the channel are mostly Pentecostal

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/3/18.html

.......Benny Hinn, Hagee, Copeland, Carman, Rod Paisley (the minister running the ministers-sign-up-voters-in-Ohio and the rest of the country), Billy Joe and Sharon Daughtery of Victory Christian Church, etc, etc

.......eveyone should watch a few of these programs to know what's going on in this movememt

[ismnotwasm]

4. This is one more way of dividing people

They, (those making real profits) use race, crime rates, poverty rates, jobs--everything. They know divide and conquer very well. The what to keep that "us and them" mentality in those so desperate for jobs. They want to keep the racism going. I have NO answers. I wish I did. Should the jobs go to "illegals?" Well it will piss a lot of out of work folk off if they do. Who will we blame? Many will blame the ones working.
I'm looking at a slim, magazine paperback I've had for years. It calleds "Us and Them" A history of Intolerance in America by Jim Carnes. Ever since New Orleans, I've been draggin' out books I have dealing with race, and race relationships
God, I wish we had some answers that didn't divide, that didn't create resentment and hate

[Seansky]

7. I learned very early on that when socio-economic environments become

strained by any unbalance, the intolerance levels increase exponentially. See, I'm Latina and look what I am writing (even thought I mean no harm)

[oasis]

14. Divide and conquer. That's the GOP modus operandi.

[Seansky]

15. Would you think they aren't just looking after their economic interests

only and the divide and conquer result/opportunity in this case is just gravy?

[blondeatlast]

53. They win on both fronts with this--and they can offer the facade

to the faithful that they are trying to do somthing about border-crossing.

[Name removed]

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[Seansky]

32. That is nothing but fair. I do believe NO locals must be given first oppty

and those citizens capable of solving the needs. No qs. about that.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[alarcojon]

83. You sure have a way with words

So sorry to drag out the dinosaur on you, but what exactly is the point of using the phrase "Pepe Illegalcano"? Does it somehow make your arguments stronger?

Undocumented workers are human beings, OKJ, not caricatures. Just thought you might need that pointed out to you.

BTW I'm Latino, born and raised in the US of A. Your arguments might carry more weight with me if you used less divisive, offensive language.

Go ahead, it's about the time for YOU to drag out the "PC whiner" dinosaur on ME.

[Name removed]

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[alarcojon]

99. Generalize much?

Wow, you decided to keep repeating your little term. I bet you thought it up all by yourself.

And you think you deserve more of my time?

[Name removed]

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[blondeatlast]

8. Kick--this needs lots of exposure. Thanks for a great link. nt

[Seansky]

16. you're welcome, but could you share your thoughts about it?

[blondeatlast]

50. I think it's a way of dividing the non-white vote. Rove will try to split

the African-American and Latino-American vote this way.

This time, though, I don't think it will work for him. I hope not, anyway.

[Seansky]

55. Nope, I really don't think it will work for them this time, and I still

question if it really worked before...

[jwirr]

10. So much for my Native American son-in-law and his crew

who were going down to help with heavy equipment.

[Seansky]

11. Oh Man! One just can imagine how the NO locals feel about it.

[robre]

12. There's no way for mexican citizens to legally immigrate to the U.S.

There are 3 ways, currently:

1. Have special skills desired by a green card sponsoring educator or employer.

2. Have immediate family that is a citizen of the United States.

3. The green card lottery, which I believe is 50,000 slots.

Mexico is specifically denied from taking part in the green card lottery.

Now, the question is, why were we not expecting illegal immigration if we don't provide a legal way to do it?

Why is that people that pass through the Canadian border are viewed as tourists and people that pass through the U.S.-Mexican border are viewed as invaders? Both passages through the borders have been found to be cyclical, so the only answer is racism.

[Seansky]

13. That seems to me a partial reason. What about the amount of

those entering from each border? Is there a considerable gap there?

On Edit: And how about language?

[robre]

19. Not my main point, but...

There are people in Quebec that only speak French. I have no idea how many people cross each border, only that studies has shown it is cyclical, and so why does it matter what the numbers are.

If we gave Mexican citizens a way to legally immigrate to the U.S. U.S. employers would not be able to abuse their illegality any longer and would have to pay them market wages.

The employers would then, most likely, hire natives again to have less cultural and language differences, which would solve most of our problems.

[Seansky]

22. very good point and well taken.

[ismnotwasm]

23. I believe "they" (The ones making real profits again)

Want to keep the southern illegals, well illegal for reasons posted above. Cheap labor,near slave wages. As I'm sure you know many work seasonally, then return to Mexico, or other South American countries to support families down there. Farmers can't make a profit and pay field workers a living wage, as an example here in the Northwest. The issue as you say is very complex.
Without trying to be divisive here, (honestly) I don't see too many white seasonal field workers, although they do exist, I know. And I've worked in long-term care, and many green card workers in nursing homes are the ones taking care of our elderly and disabled. Whites work in that field also (nursing assistants) but not nearly as many, at least where I live. Hard work, poor pay.
So along comes the potential for jobs that pay a (not really)living wage, and not only does this administration try to gut the (almost)living wage part, they try to create an atmosphere of fear and resentment in an area where it's already red hot, by giving jobs to illegal immigrants. Again, I don't have answers, but I can't stand to see it happening and feeling so helpless.

[Seansky]

24. I relate to the helplessness feeling. But in economic terms, what

about the fact the the second largest GPD item in Mexico is the money sent by those in the US (again, I have nothing against it just would like to learn more about the issue)

[Name removed]

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[robre]

28. Did you even read what I wrote?

There is no "front door."

There is no line for them to wait in.

There is absolutely no way for the average Mexican citizen to even have a chance (even as remote as getting a green card in the lottery is) to immigrate to the United States.

If you don't give them even the hope of random chance, what were you expecting? For them to just forget about the job market up here? No, in fact they are willing to risk their lives, not only to the elements and to law enforcement, but also risk their lives to access our job markets in dealing with racist and xenophobic vigilantes like the "Minuteman Project" that do not understand the beneficial economics of the immigration and will be viewed by history as the modern incarnation of the Klu Klux Klan.

As abusive as our employers of these immigrants are, when it all comes down to it the Mexicans want to be here otherwise they wouldn't risk their lives to cross our borders. We should at least be decent enough to offer them the chance to at least legally immigrate, or recognize them with temporary worker statuses.

[Seansky]

31. The "they want to be here" was backed up by a recent study I heard

conducted by the DF university. The reason was the lack of opportunity there, particularly for recently university graduates and those with special skills and education.

Since we seem to disagree with US intervention in other countries, and this immigration issue has impacts on us, how could their own government be required to address their own issues (population, drugs, poverty, education, etc)

[Name removed]

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[robre]

44. We can do this by setting good examples.

Note that currently we are headed in the wrong direction in reguards to poverty and education.

Another example of us setting a bad example is that currently we are trying to spread our culture through war, which will never work and has never worked without genocide.

I would rather spread our culture through honest free trade, note when I say honest free trade I speak of nonabusive and real free trade, not the abusive and protectionist policies advocated by the world bank. In honest free trade, both parties are the beneficiaries.

[Name removed]

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[robre]

67. You can't raise your standard of living without international trade.

Basic economics.

The suggestions you make, to stop immigration and you probably also support making outsourcing illegal, are products of xenophobia, not any logical system of economics. Immigration and outsourcing only have benefits to offer us and we are more well off because of these practices.

[Name removed]

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[robre]

75. The economic value of outsourcing far outnumbers the economic loss

The services provided by outsourcing are worth more to us as a nation than the wages provided to the foriegn workers, otherwise we wouldn't do it. Call centers and things of that nature have a high turnover rate in this nation for a reason. Nobody wants to do such work.

[Name removed]

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[robre]

79. Americans don't want these jobs.

Working at a call center is not cushy. It is pure tedium and about 50% of the employees quit on the first day.

[Name removed]

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[robre]

81. The bill of rights protects illegal immigrants not illegal immigration(nt)

[Name removed]

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[robre]

84. Good luck finding all the illegals without violating rights! (nt)

This is reality.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[theboz]

91. Baah, you right-winger sheep

Go ahead and wallow in your ignorance both of the real situation in Mexico as well as the situation of your own country. Hell, remain ignorant of your own history as well.

Want to know why your white ancesters were allowed to come here? To act as a buffer between blacks and rich white elites. Want to know why your ancesters went west? To act as a buffer between rich whites and native Americans.

Here's the deal. The whole situation and problem of illegal immigration was invented and is maintained by rich white elitists who want the cheap labor as well as the conflict between lower classes like you, me, and the illegals. If we all keep fighting each other, we'll never see who our true enemies are. You are totally blaming the wrong people.

As a side note, ever wonder why Mexico has so many problems? Has it occurred to you that U.S. intervention on behalf of business interests is responsible for the vast majority of problems in Latin America? If not, then perhaps you should read up on our dealings in the past and present with these countries. What we are doing in Iraq is just part of a long tradition of American governments and business screwing over and killing poor people overseas for their own profit. Iraq is the rule, not the exception, in how we deal with other nations, especially our neighbors to the south.

Of course, your hatred does nothing to help remedy the situation or even enlighten you to what is really going on, but hatred is a true conservative value.

[Name removed]

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[theboz]

106. You're completely wrong on this

First of all, let me preface this by saying that my wife is Mexican, that I have been there a lot, and that I am aware of it's politics since her family has been involved with it on a city, state, and regional level there. In fact, in a few years we will most likely be living down there.
<i>When handling a problem it is best to attack the cause, not the symptom.</i><p>
I agree, but I don't think you are aware of what the cause is.<p>
<i>Mexicans would be best off if they reformed their own government.</i><p>
We would be best off if we reformed our own government, but that's not possible at this time either. They are making greater strides though, having gotten PRI out of the presidency. However, the government in Mexico, as in the U.S., is at the whims of rich businessmen. It's no secret that George H.W. Bush is a good friend of Salinas, the former Mexican president who ripped the nation off and single-handedly caused a recession. It sort of reminds me of a certain American president that we have in office right now.<p>
<i>They could create any kind of conditions they want in Mexico, reducing poverty, improving education and making it a nice place to live.</i><p>
They can't fix those things any easier than we can for the most part. Also, it's not such a bad place to live for everyone. If you ignore the border and Mexico City, it's not that bad, but that's another topic altogether. Poor people are poor, both here and there, and individuals don't care about the situation of their countrymen if they can't eat. Do you really think that the people from New Orleans who suffered through Katrina consider themselves to be citizens of a first world nation? Well, I've talked to quite a few of them, and they don't.<p>
<i>Then Mexico won't be a third world country anymore, it'll be a first rate country.</i><p>
There's no such thing in reality, at least as far as anyone other than politicians are concerned. Each individual is what matters. I saw cable modems in Mexico *YEARS* before I saw them in the U.S., but that didn't help a poor person from Mexico City who lives in a cardboard house trying to find enough scraps of food to feed their family. I've seen lots of poor people in both the U.S. and in Mexico, and I think every HUMAN BEING deserves to be helped if they can be helped, no matter what color of skin they have. The concept of nations are obsolete in a global economy, and even moreso when you try to artificially impose classifications like that when the reality has many different classes of people.<p>
<i>If they do so they won't need to come to the US so desperately, it cures problems on both sides of the fence.</i><p>
They're in the same boat we are, and we are unable to fix our own nation at this point. The only difference is that they have a higher percentage of people living in poverty and a smaller middle class that is growing, while we have a smaller percentage of people in poverty with a shrinking middle class. The rich are the same in both nations, and in charge of everything in both nations. The problems posed by immigration are so small that they should not even be on your radar until after we get the murderous treasonous bastards out of our government. You are focusing on someone accidentally brushing against you and ignoring the person beating your face in with a tire iron.<p>
Also, the article you linked to is highly exaggerated. The vast majority of people are mestizo, and do not care one way or the other about the color of each others' skins unless they are going to be sexually involved and then they care about it as much as you might choose between a blonde and a brunette.

Again, the problem in Mexico is one of wealth. This is the exact same problem we have in the U.S. We can't snub our noses at people just because they suffer under the same thing more and more of us are starting to suffer under every day. We also can't pretend that we have no responsibility to our fellow man just because of artificial classifications such as nationality. The rich people already discovered that nationalities are meaningless, except as more classifications to divide the majority of people so they can keep control. It's time you and everyone else wake up and realize that what's going on with the immigration debate is that it is a tool by the wealthy to keep us divided.

[Name removed]

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

112. And bullying every other nation on Earth makes America a GOOD neighbor?

And don't try the "my ancestors came through the right way" because "the right way" was a lot different then, now wasn't it? But the reaction isn't. As long as there have been immigrants, there have been people saying "America is full, we don't want them here".

[Seansky]

29. I don't want to get the thread locked because I really wish to learn from

other peoples point of views.

But I really would like to hear whether you think the local businesses aren't greatly responsible for this?

And, do you have any idea how to address it since enforcing the use of the front door isn't really working?

I mean this with total respect to your opinions.

[Name removed]

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[Seansky]

43. I do buy on the policing our own..truly, particularly because of the

inhumane treatment and unfair practices against those that are legally doing business...

Txs. for the response.

[ismnotwasm]

37. Well, I have to disagree

I live an a poor Multi-ethnic area, with plenty of illegals, green cards and legal immigrants. I attend the festivals, I know my neighbors. I've never gotten the feeling of hatred you're describing.
I think what you're describing more is what's called the "culture of poverty" and it doesn't come with a color. People get desperate. Do you know of the "coyotes" the ones that charge exorbitant prices to slip illegals over the Mexican border to make some chump change for their families? Or the white slavery prostitution trade that is flourishing in the US? In my own neighborhood, illegal "sweatshops" were closed down, with Vietamese women working in disgusting conditions to make cheap clothes.
The issue is as you say, larger than Mexico. But that kind of anger is what I'm talking about-- you just raise your blood pressure and it won't solve anything.
If stopping all illegal immigration was possible, I'm sure it would have been done. But the "powers that be" don't want it stopped--fairly obvious from recent moves by *. Please don't direct that anger towards a people or a country. Try to use it on policies. You and I don't have to agree on what those policies are, but don't let it be "Us and Them"

[Seansky]

41. The powers that be could solve it with much less money invested

in Iraq war, if we were to think about it...No that I support foreign intervention, but what solutions are there since the rich and those wanting to profit quickly wish to have this below than avg. wage laborers?

[ismnotwasm]

49. And that's the rub

Why does it continue? My new mother in law had illegal mexican immigrants do some yard work for her. The reason I know that they were illegal is because my father asked if they had insurance, in case of injury. Her reply? "They're illegal, they're invisible" Now, that is not entirely true, and just shows her ignorance, but I wonder how many others feel that way? She is very conservative, and I'm sure supports stronger immigration policies, but nod, nod, wink, wink--she hires "invisible" people?
I think, for me to have an informed opinion, I would need to know what jobs the illegals are doing, how long the jobs last, what they are being paid, do they have benefits, and would others actually do these jobs if the illegals weren't here?
Legal immigration, on the other hand is also an issue. I've heard accusations that legal immigrant will work for lower wages, longer hours, less benefits, to the detriment of established workers, and of course, unions. Once one becomes an American citizen, it seems to me that some of the resentment spills over to the legal immigrants. So some want to lock the borders entirely, or make immigration a very select, lengthy process.
I keep saying I don't have answers, but It's definitely a conversation progressives need to have, hopefully without too much recrimination and anger, although if your job has been sent to India, and you see foreign workers taking jobs you could have had, for less pay, anger is hard to contain.

[Seansky]

51. I wish we could expand the dialog. I for one, want to be part of the

solution and the problem will force US to seek a solution very quickly because the issue is being relegated to a background and growing faster as a result. No that I aren't glad about Delay's news today...

[ismnotwasm]

58. I hear ya! SOME good news at least

I, too would rather be part of the solution. To expand it a bit, In my neighborhood, we have many hispanic children in our schools. English is their second language. Some of their parents speak very little, if any English. I know the schools are trying their best to deal with this situation, but language is a very difficult barrier. It's difficult to tell who is legal, and who is not, but my guess is most have green cards at least. Some of these children live in abject poverty, come to school hungry, have a difficult time in school. It's the poorer neighborhoods like mine that deal with the brunt of this problem. The neighborhoods with the least resources.
Another issue, health care. Many immigrants have little or no insurance, and show up at emergency rooms or "free" clinics for care. They usually don't show up until something is really wrong, placing more cost on the health care system.
We have community outreach programs were we live that help a lot, but so much needs to be done. The whole issue goes so far beyond "who has the jobs".

[Name removed]

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[Bridget Burke]

86. The correct spelling is "Criollo"

I won't bother to correct the rest...

[Name removed]

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[robre]

48. How can you call it call it hatred when they WANT to be here?(n/t)

[Name removed]

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[ismnotwasm]

54. The smiling faces I was referring to are my neighbors Buba

Again, it seems you're directing your anger towards a people, rather than policies. Work to change the policies. It's a lot more complicated that you seem to think.

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[ismnotwasm]

62. You are generalizing again

I've been to Mexico, you don't need to tell me about it. I've been poorer than dirt, pulled my damn self out of it and I don't waste my sympathy or my empathy. I don't get taken in by sob stories--from anybody. I think I mentioned I live in a poor neighborhood. I see illegals every day. They aren't working jobs that I would consider prosperous. (beside the point I know) I think I made it clear that I have no answers. I don't necessarily agree with yours mostly because I don't understand what it is you're saying. I think you said shut the borders. Right? How about putting the ones hiring the illegals in jail? Or change the policy so that only NO residents are hired to rebuild New Orleans? (I thought Halliburton got that contract, or is that just a rumor) If Halliburton or whatever company is going to do most of the rebuilding, are THEY the ones hiring illegals? Don't you think we can spread the blame a little here?

[Name removed]

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[earth mom]

88. Thanks for your very brave posts in this thread.

I've tried to argue the illegal immigration issue here on DU before and for me it all boils down to exploitation. Businesses and Corporate America are all about exploiting workers no matter what color.

It's a FACT that good paying jobs are disappearing faster than the blink of an eye in this country for all Americans/legal green card holders. It's a crisis that every person in this country should care about, because YOUR job could be next!

Meanwhile, instead of caring about rampant job loss, everyone in this country is instead supposed to care that poor Mexican Citizens ILLEGALLY here in this country are employed and can feed their families and ignore that American Citizens/legal residents are unemployed and have no food to feed their families! All just so we don't appear racist! Give me a break! :eyes:

Sorry, but I'm NOT racist and moreover, I'd rather see ALL jobs in rebuilding NOLA go to the 67% black population of NOLA who need those jobs and-damn it!-DESERVE those jobs far more than anyone from any country who is here illegally!

Who's being exploited and screwed now? The BLACK CITIZENS OF AMERICA that's who! How fucked up is that?! :grr:

[Name removed]

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[earth mom]

97. I'm a sister...

and I appreciate the pep talk! :)

Sometimes it's hard to make a point around here what with attacks from all sides. I guess people have to experience losing a job themselves and not being able to find another one that pays anything close to their old salary before they can understand what's really happening in this country. :shrug:

Welcome to DU, btw!

:hi:

[Seansky]

100. I am with you. The experience has to be felt first hand to

some understanding of what this issue really means

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[ieoeja]

107. Those who disagree with you are not "truly" Americans? n/t

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[Cleita]

17. I'm with you on this too.

But look at what they did in Iraq, bringing in contractors to rebuild instead of hiring Iraqis to do it. They will do the same in NO. Halliburton wins again.

[Seansky]

18. thanks for reminding me.

[bobbieinok]

33. Siler City, NC.....white, black, Hispanic.......David Duke stirs the pot

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/oct00martinez.htm


Black & Brown Workers Alliance Born In North Carolina

Five Organizers Speak

By Elizabeth Martinez

In recent years, thousands of Latino migrants have come to work in the Southeast and often remained as permanent residents. In North Carolina alone, the number of Latinos rose from about 77,000 in 1990, according to the Census Bureau, to over 300,000 today. They are mostly Mexican but also Guatemalan and other nationalities. Latino labor was attracted to the area starting 15 years ago, from Texas and Florida.

The white racist response has included an anti-immigration rally last February led by former KKK leader David Duke in Siler City, a small town about 50 miles west of Raleigh; efforts to make English the official language for government business; and billboards blaming immigrants for every social evil.

That response is predictable, but what does the growing Latino population mean for descendants of slaves who have provided the South’s cheap labor for over a century, and who still face racism? Tension has occurred and there have even been reports of Mexicans robbed and sometimes killed by local African Americans. Are efforts being made to combat divisions and build alliances between African Americans and Latinos to fight together for justice? In the cultural arena, local teachers and community leaders have been working for some time to bridge the gap by bringing Latino/a poets, writers, musicians, performance artists, and speakers to the South, including North Carolina. I addressed a statewide meeting of Florida teachers two years ago. On another, crucial front, a new black/brown workers’ alliance was launched in Raleigh last February 2 by Black Workers for Justice, now almost 20-years-old, with the Farm Labor Organizing Committee headed by Baldemar Velaquez and headquartered in Ohio; Public Service Workers Union/UE Local 150;, and the Asociacion de Trabajadores Latinos de North Carolina (ASTLANC). The call for the African American/Latino Alliance went out from the North Carolina Office of Health and Safety (NCOSH), a non-profit entity that has supplied educators and organizers.

In July-August I spoke by telephone with five people involved in building the alliance, in separate interviews. Although only a few months old, it became clear that this effort is difficult, historic, and a critical example of what needs to be done, as the South—like the whole country—acquires vast new populations. Once again we can see how class contradictions within each community affect the degree of success achieved in crossing racial lines between communities. Finally, as non-Southerners often fail to realize, we can find in the South not just some of the nation’s most backward attitudes about labor, race, and other issues, but also some of the most progressive views and concrete accomplishments. In any case, alliance-building among workers in North Carolina is a challenge to watch carefully.

more....

[Seansky]

35. Excellent article. THANKS for sharing. These two parragraph kind of

summirize serious issues.

“Latinos are mushrooming, but nobody has this on their radar screen. The program directors of non-profits haven’t assessed the situation.” Dillahunt concluded. “Grassroots organizing efforts in the South won’t succeed unless our two communities work together.”

“We cannot be fighting for the crumbs the rich leave us,” Carbajal said. And that was the general feeling. The alliance is still very new, yet it is already clear that “we have to be allies in the fight for justice.”

[ismnotwasm]

45. Yes thank you, excellent article

Forward thinking people with grassroots beginnings. Going to where the people ARE, instead of making disconnected policy from Washington.

[Ignacio Upton]

34. We don't need cheap labor coming in

And opposing illegal immigration is not racist. Many of the immigrants are taking jobs away from whites, BLACKS, and LATINOS who are second-generation and will not allow themselves to be exploited. Fox is deliberately encouraging this because he wants to get rid of all the poor people in his country so there will only be rich people left. Plus, and this is heading into conspiracy theory territory, but some (the key word is some) Mexicans support this illegal flow because they want to change the demographics of the Southwest and hope that in another generation there will be secession movements for reunification with Mexico. Ironically, this is how Texas became part of the United State, when Santa Anna invited int American settlers.

[Seansky]

38. yeah, time tends to take care of history.

I feel like, as a Latina, it is my responsibility (and requirement) to be the best citizen possible, but that is also because of my cultural background and education. I volunteer about 60 hrs./month because of the sense I have to give back to US for having given me an opportunity for a better life (touchy feeling stuff, ah).

Still, can shake how complex this issue is becoming on a daily basis. Really worried about it 'cause what I see in my volunteer job at the hospital...

[robre]

46. Please, this was conspiracy the moment you started blaming Fox.

A nation has no obligation to ensure that its citizens do not leave the country's borders. The right to free travel is a staple of modern democracy. What do you suggest? He build a wall? After all, we know that the wall worked so well in Berlin.

If we don't provide a legal way for these people to travel and to immigrate, we can only expect them to persue illegal ways to do these things.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[robre]

68. Even illegal immigrants have rights under the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights applies to all "persons" within the territory controlled by the United States. Obviously you do not understand the bill of rights when you call their rights "non-existent."

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[robre]

76. You say "economics, law" but your ideas are nothing but crazed dogma.(nt)

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[alarcojon]

85. "American latinos are Americans period."

Keep trying to speak for me, pal. I deeply disagree.

I am an American who loves this country, warts and all. But I am MUCH more than "American, period."

Your aggressiveness and vitriol are poor substitutes for persuasive argumentation.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[alarcojon]

98. No need to play your game

I am not attempting to advance an argument. I am merely calling you on your offensive tone. I feel no need to respond to your argument - the issues are covered sufficiently by others.

I would have to be pretty dumb to not have realized that the original poster was Latina.

Since you probably feel a need for me to say this (a patronizing attitude, if you ask me), I'll say it: An undocumented non-citizen does not deserve a Katrina-related job over a local American citizen. My posts were both short, and neither said or implied otherwise, unless you happen to assume that someone who takes issue with your style of argument must disagree with you on the issues.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[blondeatlast]

57. Let's sum up the issues the way the opportunistic Right does:

1. It's cheap labor.

2. More profit off already pork-filled projects.

3. Divide and conquer TWO voting blocs who should have most interests in common (poverty/health care/employment/education).

4. Further marginalize a heavily Democratic voting bloc (New Orleans citizens) and make them even further removed from the direction their city takes.

I effing HATE the opportunistic RW.

[Jack_DeLeon]

65. Hispanics will fix New Orleans...

and we will fix this country.

Viva la raza.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[NMMNG]

70. The jobs should be offered to local residents first

Then to others afterward.

[Seansky]

73. True...Louisiana citizens should have first chance at recovering

and rebuilding their own cities.

[Bridget Burke]

87. I agree that NOLA natives should get first crack at the jobs.

But this thread has prompted some posts dripping with toxic saliva.

"Cry racist all you want, a massive deportation is coming whether you like it or not. America's immune system is coming back on-line and we're not going to stop with just Bush, we're going to get rid of all of our illnesses and that includes all illegals, Mexican and otherwise." Purity now!

The workers aren't cowards, either.

(If "illegal immigrants" reported for the public service jobs you mentioned, they would be busted & deported. Allow these jobs as means to LEGAL immigration for those don't qualify for the limited slots now allowed? Perhaps--but that would prompt howls of "These jobs belong to AMURKINS!")

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

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[Bridget Burke]

110. Where did "racist" appear in my post?

You must hear that word a lot.

[alarcojon]

115. I'm not a racist, but.....n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

113. Then WHY are you using their arugments?

That "black americans worked hard" argument is almost word for word what the Klan had to say about mexicans.

[Seansky]

102. you're right about some of the posts, and the thread might be locked soon

which wasn't my intention. But this does demonstrate the complexity of the issue and our inability as citizens to effectively have dialog about it to figure an answer...

[Bridget Burke]

109. Yes, I think you started this thread with good intentions.

But there are always a few creeps....

[alarcojon]

114. Hi Seansky

Of course you started the thread with good intentions. And as you point out, the issues are complex and there are good, legitimate arguments to be made on all sides. My problem with:

was with tone. Apparently the mods agreed with me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

116. Your post is quite valid.

And as a fellow Latina, I agree that the jobs need to go to those people in NOLA and they should go at the proper pay rate as well.

My problem was with the overgeneralizations by some people. Your thread was temporarily hijacked. But the mods were on the job.

[Seansky]

117. yeah, txs. as I said, this illustrates the complexity and probably the

lack of a solution. I feel sorry because the childrens of today might face a harsh adulthood due to all the current problems being created for them to solve.