Wow! HIV might not cause Aids. I hadn't heard that one......

[theophilus]

I might just be way behind the curve but this info is new to me. I hope it hasn't been posted but here you go:

http://hivnotaids.homestead.com/index.html

<snip>

"Some leading experts have denied, from the beginning, that HIV has been shown to be the cause of AIDS. They were excommunicated from mainstream publications and funding and are rarely mentioned in the mass media. The dissidents from the standard view have argued chiefly on grounds of retrovirology, immunology, and molecular biology. They have drawn attention to a variety of puzzling aspects of HIV/AIDS. These intricate technicalities can be side-stepped by looking strictly at the demography of HIV...."


Take a look and comment. What do you think? Had you heard this?

[DRoseDARs]

1. Some woman (in Cali, think) was a proponent of this. Her child just died..

...from one of the opportunist diseases that afflicts you when you've got this wretched illness. She still refuses to believe otherwise.

[REP]

9. The Maggot Maggiore

Across The Nation | Los Angeles County Investigating Couple After Child Died of AIDS-Related Pneumonia Without Ever Having HIV Test

The Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services is investigating a couple for possible child endangerment after their three-year-old daughter died earlier this May of what the county coroner said was AIDS-related pneumonia, the Los Angeles Times reports. Prior to the girl's death, her parents did not have the girl and her eight-year-old brother tested for HIV even though their mother, Christine Maggiore, is HIV-positive and breastfed both the children, according to the Times. Maggiore does not believe that HIV causes AIDS and is the founder of Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives, a not-for-profit organization that challenges "common assumptions" about AIDS, according to the Times. Maggiore said her daughter's death has not changed her views on HIV, and she and her husband, Robin Scovill, have questioned the coroner's findings and are sending the report to another reviewer. Jay Gordon, a Santa Monica, Calif., pediatrician who treated the girl since she was one year old, said he regretted not demanding that she undergo an HIV test. "It's possible that the whole situation could have been changed if one of the doctors involved -- one of the three doctors involved -- had intervened," Gordon said. But another doctor involved in the case, Paul Fleiss, said he did not believe it would have been right to force Maggiore to get her daughter tested for HIV. DCFS officials said they have launched an investigation to determine whether the parents should be forced to test their son for HIV infection. Maggiore said that since her daughter's death, she has had her son tested for HIV three times and that the tests came back negative each time. Maggiore said she has spoken with the police and plans to meet with DCFS officials this week (Ornstein/Costello, Los Angeles Times, 9/24).
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=32763

Who is Paul Fleiss?

"Paul Fleiss a pharmacist and osteopath who obtained an MD without going to medical school as a result of legislation passed in California in 1962 that for a brief time allowed an osteopath to convert their degree to an MD. Fleiss moved from Detroit to take advantage of this by becoming a pediatrician. ... A long article was published on Fleiss by the Los Angeles Times’ Sunday April 9 issue in 1995. In it his involvement in holistic health care and breastfeedingis described. In one of several malpractice complaints "the parents contend that Fleiss was so insistent that they breast feed their infant, despite the mother's difficulty in producing milk, that the child eventually became dehydrated and went into hypertensive cardiac arrest. The baby ended up losing a kidney ..." "In case, a Burbank couple charged that Fleiss had been too lax when their 3-year-old developed a fever. The doctor, they said, told them it was nothing to worry about. Then the child suffered a seizure resulting in irreversible brain damage". "

[msanthrope]

22. Paul Fleiss--Father of Heidi. n/t

[blogslut]

2. i remember reading a series in spin about it in the early 90's

n/t

[BigMcLargehuge]

18. I remember that series as well

I always wondered what happened to the doctor they profiled.

[Raster]

3. It's bullshit, and keeps surfacing occasionally. They always say

"leading experts." O.K., name them. Let's see their credentials. Put up or shut up.

In every diagnosis of AIDS, there is a finding of HIV+. Every one. If someone can prove a verifiable case of AIDS without HIV infection, the medical world is waiting to examine the data. Just one little problem, there is no verifiable data.

[LostinVA]

15. I can say I'm a leading expert in something

All I have to do is say I am!

[jmowreader]

21. The definition of AIDS requires HIV positivity

To be an AIDS patient, you must have two things:

* at least one of the thirty-plus diseases the World Health Organization calls AIDS indicators--Kaposi's sarcoma, TB, wasting disease, candida, there are a bunch of them

and

* antibodies to HIV in your blood

Which means that if you got KS from doing amyl nitrite ten times a day for the last ten years, and you have no HIV, you are a KS patient. But if you got KS from doing five gallons of popper and you have HIV, you're an AIDS patient.

The leading HIV dissident has always been Peter Duesberg, who is the virologist who discovered the retrovirus in the first place. Until AIDS came out and he came out against the HIV theorem, Duesberg was the leading name-brand virologist. Duesberg thinks AIDS is behavioral, or at least he did--I've heard comment that Duesberg has joined Gallo recently, but his website is still full of anti-HIV stuff so I'm doubtful.

Someone who came into HIV dissidence later on was Kary Mullis. Mullis invented the PCR test and won the Nobel Prize for it.

Check out http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/srlabrat.htm to read about the virologist Robert Gallo, who claimed to have discovered HIV although he really ripped off Luc Montagnier at the Pasteur Institute.

I don't think HIV is the "sole" cause of AIDS. One virus doesn't cause 30 different things to happen to you depending on who you are (junkies who don't use popper get different AIDS indicators than do gays who don't shove heroin), and HIV does this.

[bluestateguy]

4. It almost always does

The scientific evidnece is overwhelming. Are there some people who have defied the odds and lived many years with HIV? Sure. I have one friend who has lived 15 years with the virus in very good health. But there are also people who smoke for over 50 years and never get cancer or heart disease. It's not a real safe bet, however.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Magic Johnson Was Diagnosed In 91

eom

[Behind the Aegis]

5. It's crap!

There are a few here who will say it is a big conspiracy, but not one damn thing I have read from their "proof" is vaild!

[charlie]

6. Their contention that chronic "insults" to the immune system

(such as fastlane drugging and sex) causes AIDS doesn't explain AIDS in children, especially those born to HIV-positive parents.

[fujiyama]

7. Don't fall for this

It's nonsense. Here's a good link that basically shows why there's a link between HIV and AIDS:

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm

[theophilus]

16. Thanks for the link and for all the info. Thanks to everyone

who responded. I thought it sounded incredible. I appreciate the debunking.

[Kailassa]

8. superstitios nonsense

The people that originally pushed this notion did not believe disease is caused by germs, and they believed in spontaneous generation of worms and maggots. Pasteur's germ theory was much argued with in his day, and some people still hold on to their old superstitions.

[NMMNG]

10. I've heard it

It's BS as far as I know.

[Dogmudgeon]

11. deleted

Deleted.

When I read this where it was, I thought I posted in the wrong place. I will wait to see how the thread opens up. --p!

[Ian David]

12. It's been posted before, usually removed by mods. It's false and DANGEROUS

This is a stupid idea.

[unhappycamper]

13. wikipedia on Mr. Fleiss:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_M._Fleiss

[Hobarticus]

19. He's Heidi Fleiss' DAD?!? Who knew!

What a small world!

[LostinVA]

14. HIV causes AIDS

HIV is a strange retrovirus, but yes, it causes AIDS.

[bertha katzenengel]

20. It must be true, because they've got important ciphers like this:

~0.65 < 1.00 < ~1.6 < ~ 2.7 < ~ 5

Another big clue that it's true is that they cite a book called The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS -- a book that was written twelve years ago.

There are more clues as to how fabulous this theory is, how much credence should be given to it, but I'll let others cover those.

:sarcasm:

It's a fucking crock of shit.

[Avalux]

23. This is NOT true.

HIV attacks T-cells, white blood cells whose sole purpose is to fight infection. Gradually, if not controlled by antiretrovirals, HIV will deplete the T-cells, compromising the immune system. Once this happens, a person is susceptible to catching all kinds of nasty diseases that normally they wouldn't - this is called AIDS.

These are the facts - any other explanation doesn't hold water.

[Johonny]

24. This is pretty old

I remember reading some BS on this in Rolling Stone in the 90s on this. Basically some people are confusing immune system lose and HIV. It is possible for some people to have immune system problems without having the HIV virus. However there is overwhelming evidence that those that have the HIV virus will eventually have immune system problems.

[Xithras]

25. Idiocy in action

It's a hysterical denial of reality constructed by some HIV+ people who can't accept the fact that they have a terminal illness. They construct this great semi-religious conspiracy to foster the belief that they, somehow, can dodge the AIDS virus by keeping away from the "establishment".

[Moderator]

26. locking

this website contains opinion, not factual medical opinion.