america is not becoming fascist.

[nemo137]

if we're heading toward anything unpleasant, we're heading towards authoritarian conservatism. fascist implies some sort of third way.

but i really don't even believe we're headed towards that. i belive that the "fascist" talk that get's thrown around on the board is a reaction to the increasing conservatism, and will disappear when the pendulum starts swinging back.

does the current government leave a good deal to be desired? yes.
have they expanded government power in a direction i'd rather it not be aimed at? yes.
does this equal either fascism or authoritarian conservatism? no.

soldiers aren't marching through the streets breaking up democratic meetings. we still have at least two parties. people are speaking their minds. how many people do you know who have been shot by the government because of their political beliefs, or religion, or race?

the way bush took office was unfortunate, but not a death knell for democracy. the fact that darrell issa bought a recall and it succeeded is unfortunate, but not a coup.

please stop being so goddamn pessimistic. work like hell to get a democratic president and dem majorities in 04. if things keep going the way they are, if the administration keeps mismanaging the economy and the war, if it does something massively stupid to someone, or gets smacked with an investigation, we shouldn't have too hard of a time of it.

and we will, at the very least, have a chance. this is, after all, a republic.

[Solly Mack]

1. So Bush is Metternich?

...let me ponder that one a bit...

[nemo137]

3. no, bush is not metternich.

bush is bush is bush. is bush. the only thing that throwing around fascist/ authoritarian con/dictatorial references does is inflame people to the point where, whether consciously or not, they cease thinking of the bush side as political opponents, and place them outside the normal political realm.

[Solly Mack]

19. True, he's not Metternich

but he is a fascist.

[bobbieinok]

112. But KISSINGER is Metternich.....

At least that was the rumor when he was with Nixon.

I think he wrote his dissertation (????) on Metternich....pulling/driving Europe back to the golden age before the EVIL French Revolution of 1789.

For those of us in the 60s that meant pulling/driving the US back to the golden age (the 'wonderful' 50s era of Ozzie and Harriet and Leave it to Beaver) before the EVIL civil rights/women's liberation movements.

[Solly Mack]

118. I can see that

but then, I think of Metternich as the father of modern-day republicanism..

[AliceWonderland]

2. I completely disagree

There is nothing remotely conservative about any of these people.

[nemo137]

5. i would disagree

they're almost a caricature of conservatism, at least "new right" conservatism. they are militantly pro-corporate, pro-defense, and "individualist." they seek (think gorver nordquist) to completely gut the government, except the military and security services. these are not the hall marks of a fascist government.

[AliceWonderland]

11. That's not

what "conservative" means. I think it's what the label vaguely sort of means on Fox, maybe, but it's never defined anyway.

They are not individualist. They believe in a group identity based around the mythology of the homeland. And "they seek to gut the government"? You must be joking. This crowd is the biggest tax, spend, waste, steal, bloat, swindle bunch you'd ever find.

The only con is "con-artist."

I don't use the word "fascist" lightly, and like you, I hate to see it thrown around in a silly manner. But I have come to the point where I don't know what else to call the current political culture.

[nemo137]

23. no, it's not conservative in the traditional sense, i'll give you that

but it's what the, i guess you'd say mainstream conservative movement has gone towards in recent years, as their best hope of defeating the liberals.
the thing is, it's sure as hell not fascist. and that's really the point i'm trying to make.

[AP]

7. Absolutely true. These people are not conservatives. They're mussolini

fascists.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

8. Where have you been the last three years?

We've had our stolen election, and our reichstag fire, and we have goebbels running the media, and we have the take over by the corporations.

This is the same battle that FDR fought and won, and FDR knew he was fighting American fascists. And now we're losing the battle to the children and grandchildren of those same fascists.

[nemo137]

i've been here, watching with a bit of unease.

i've seen a blindingly partisan SC disicion, a horrible terrorist attack, a public reaction to that that caused the media to walk too lightly for fear of hurting their bottom line, and i've seen an administration try to grab all the political gain from this they could. i haven't seen the kind of turmoil that marked the rise of fascism in europe between the wars, i haven't seen an overt fascist get as much success as georeg heider or jean-marie le pen. i haven't seen paramilitary groups loyal to the government marching on washington to prevent democrats from taking their seats. i haven't been unable to speak my mind.

if FDR fought and won, why can't we? he had steeper odds, and a worse time to do it. but we seem ready to give up. why?

[w4rma]

9. They won't start the *real* political repression

until the pendulum starts *really* swinging back.

Right now, they can stop anything with their overwhelming media power.

Note, when I say *real* political repression, I'm talking much worse than AP is in post #8.

Think South America.

[AP]

14. That's the thing. As long as they have the media, they don't need force

But the media almost did get them the WH in 2000. What if people stopped paying attention to the media?

I don't think they Republicans would give up the game just because the media lost its effectiveness. I think you start seeing some serious repression...some real sick shit. Stuff worse than McCarthyism and worse that the civil rights abuses against blacks and worse than anti-semetism.

[bpilgrim]

10. 'third way' what is that?

facism is the far right, hello...

musolini defined it as the marriage between the state and corporations.

certainly could make an argument that it has already arrived.

r u confusing fascism with nazism :shrug:

peace

[nemo137]

17. i'm basing my definition of Eatwell's

Roger Eatwell wrote a book that is basically examinations of the rise and fall of fascism in 4 countries: Germany and Italy ("successful" fascism) and Britain and France ("failed" fascism). one the of they key points he identifies is fascism's attempt to combine liberal and conservative ideas*, in a "third way." other military dictatorships without this kind of ideological underpinning are termed "authoritarian conservative."


*"Its fanatical nationalism celebrated the holistic community over the individual as it sought to forge a radical "third way" between capitalism and communism under charismatic, totalitarian rule." - from the Publisher's Weekly review of Fascism: A History

[bpilgrim]

24. 'between capitalism and communism' oh really...

that sounds like a bit of a streach to me...

marriage between corp and state sounds closer to reality to me with maybe some types having a more militaristic and it's attendant nationalism (like imperial japan)

but it certainly can be argued we are in a period of facism right now.

i think it would be hard to argue that pre wwII japan was not facist. well, we are behaving in the same way they were in china only difference really is we are in the ME.

peace

[nemo137]

30. tween cap and comm is the theory

corp-state partnership is the practice. please note, though, that moussolini was an ardent socialist, and looked to fascism to fulfill the promose socialism didn't, in terms of national power. hitler also rose out of the "national socialist" party, that had some truly populist-socialist roots.

imperial japan, i don't know much about, to be honest. from what i've heard (and this is by no means complete or correct) they seemed more nationalist conservative, but that's just a first impression.

[bpilgrim]

36. Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Summary

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

more...
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

btw: the fascist hated the commies, thats why many american capitalist supported them (fascist) some even during the war.

it is right-wing spin to try to associate fascism with communism other than to point out that they are both totalitarian in nature not to mention they are both nothing like socialism.

peace

peace

[nemo137]

44. i never said that hitler was a leftist.

but, fascist ideology did take from socialist thinkers, and did work to gain traditionally socialist constituencies, something that this administration hasn't done.

[bpilgrim]

97. "hitler also rose out of the "national socialist" party"

not to mention that the fascist also formed alliances with CORPORATIONS...

however, SOCIALIST were the FIRST to sound the alarm about the german and italian FASCIST.

:hi:

peace

[nemo137]

106. because, in addition to fascist policy being bad for workers

they we're also attracting a demographic that socialist parties needed, adding insult to injury.

the entire thrust of the discussion of hitler's and moussolini's links to fascism is to show the "third way" component of fascist ideology. you're missing the forest for the trees.

[bpilgrim]

110. zactly why they are great friends of corporations...

and therefore the natural ENEMIES of lefties... which is my point

:hi:

peace

[Zuni]

131. Hitler used corporations

like he used everything else--for his personal benefit. many of the tycoons who supported him found their buisness nationalized, or some Government agency controlling their factories.

I stree Mussolini's definition of fascism is inaccurate in the sense that everyone here says it is. Corporate councils were a feature of Mussolini's system, but corpoartions did not just represent buisness. They represent lobby groups from all walks of Italian life--it was an attempt to nullify class conflict to further national interest.

[bpilgrim]

134. depending on how important it was to the war, sure...

just like any country at war, even us.

:hi:

peace

[slaveplanet]

135. to elaborate further

Martin Bormann was most likely in control of the government agency controlling the factories.....he was also the architect of the post war Nazi flight capital

[Zuni]

136. Organization Todt

Todt and later Albert Speer also had much control over German industry. Borrmann was head of the Nazi Party but many of the personal empires overlapped. Goering at one time controlled the nationalization of industries as well as the Luftwaffe.

[slaveplanet]

138. there were many tips

to those pyramids, this whole discussion makes me feel like cracking open the dusty copy of "inside the third Riech" that's sitting on my shelf.

Speaking of Albert Speer.....I saw a website the other day that said , Speer and Kenny boy Lay were good friends before Speer's death....The site even went on to suggest that the Enron logo was penned by Speer over coffee....

I wrote it off as a goof

[Zuni]

128. not exactly true

Fascism means that the state controls everything. Private ownership of property is allowed, unless it interferes with the state. But private control of property is not allowed.
Hitler was not pro-capitalist. He used capitalists to make money and then nationalized and took over their industries.
Hitler detested Marxism, not for economics, which he cared for very little, but for their advocay of internationalism. Hitler believed in German racial interests over class interests and saw Communism as a Jewish plot to weaken the german race.

Hitler did not have friendly relations with the church--he detested christianity, which he, strangely called "jewish'. Thousands of priests were imprisoned during his reign. The SS had to denounce christianity. Naziism was a Pagan culture, but Hitler nevber moved to ban the Church outright so as not to alienate many people, although he eventually wanted christianity outlawed.

[bpilgrim]

130. his soilders had 'God is with us' on their belt buckles...

and as mussolini said they were in a partnership, no matter how imballenced.

peace

[Zuni]

132. German soldiers had that before Hitler

'Gott mitt uns' was on German soldiers in WWI.

[bpilgrim]

133. we are talking about a fascist state...

and it's simularities to what we are witnessing here and now, right?

hitler, though he may not been a 'true believer' did not stop him from using its POWERFUL symbolism.

it's an old story, really...

peace

[Zuni]

137. It was traditional German battle dress

There were chaplains in the German Army, just like every other army as well.
'Gott mit uns' predates hitler by a long time.

[IMayBeWrongBut]

34. Did you miss Bush talking about

being a "compassionate conservative"? sounds like a veiled "third way" to me...

[nemo137]

42. rhetoric =/= policy

the only vaguely third way thing about the "compassionate conservative bit" was the faith based charities, and even that shows a more conservative desire to get the government out of social services.

[not systems]

35. Eatwell vs Mussolini

I think your source is less authoritative on the subject.

The joining of business and state is the definition I use.

In our case it is media-military-industrial complex that
has come to power. The one that General Eisenhower warned
about.

This is the face of fascism american style.

Of course you are "free" to take the blue pill.

[nemo137]

41. a man who was trying to establish his power against others...

in his government, and paint himself and his ideology in the best light, or a man who was analyzing fascist trends in several countries over an almost 100 year period.

which do you think would be better for a broad comparison of dissimilar cases?

it's also interesting that the moussolini definition comes from the italian encyclopedia, which included articles from authors of all politcal stripes, even some strong anti-fascists.

[Solly Mack]

48. Mussolini WROTE the definition for the Italian Encyclopedia

along with Giovanni Gentile...it's no wonder the definition Mussolini uses is in the Italian Encyclopedia...it's his OWN.

[nemo137]

51. of course he used it in his encyclopedia!

but he was using it in the specific sense of italian fascism in the 1930's, pre-war, pre-pact with germany. the definition in the encyclopedia was not the operating principle of the italian government.

[Solly Mack]

66. Mussolini took his cues in governing from the definition he laid out

No, his definition didn't include a "14 Points" type explanation but it explained the ideology behind his "Battles"...among other things

Also, no one is saying America is practicing Mussolini's fascism point by point(at least, I'm not)...but America has incorporated fascism into it's politics and created a new form of fascism that is decidedly it's own.

It's gone well beyond Metternich's authoritarian conservatism...Metternich feared nationalism(early nationalism-but nationalism itself has evolved from it's original form)..while fascism embraces nationalism it as a means to an end. As does Bush and his ilk. Had Metternich seen the benefit of playing the nationalism card, he would have embraced it.

Bush isn't a true conservative. He is an authoritarian.. he's militaristic and nationalistic. He does put the corporation before the people and he does embrace the "what's good for business is good for America" school of thought. He believes people have too many rights..."there ought to be limits to freedom"...and he believes the govt has the right to enter the womb of others.
He's also created a huge central govt. complete with near absolute power(Patriot Act and CAPPS II)

Call him what you want...he's dangerous to America.

[nemo137]

72. i'm not saying bush is anything but bad for america.

but i am wanting to call him what he is, and to start doing it by defining it by what he isn't. he's a conservative, not a traditional one, not even a pure neocon, but he draws from the right of the political spectrum, pretty much exclusively.

my arguement against the moussolini definition is that it is too narrow, and that eatwell's, being drawn from a 100-year study of trends in 4 different countries, is more applicaple to this situation.

[not systems]

49. Millitarism and love of empire...

were the foundation of fascism in Italy.

Millitarism has been elevated to the national
secular religon here.

The authoritarian levers of the state are being
increased year after year.

The media is a huge supporter of both millitarism
and civil rights rollbacks.

If you want to call it "Authoritarian Conservatism"
fine maybe it has a better marketing sound to
people who have a knee jerk rejection of the term
fascism as too shrill when used in it's original
Italian meaning.

It is a Italian term after all so why not use it
as it was designed.

A bundle of stick tightly bound together like the
people of the nation all of going in the same direction.

[nemo137]

54. "militarism is the new secular religion."

wrong. patriotism, and patriotic myths, with militarism as a component, have been used as a religion-like unifying force in this country for years, back to administrations that no one here would categorize as fascist.

also, as much as i dislike the patriot act, and want it replealed yesterday, it's not the first such act. do you remember the palmer raids? under democratic president and idealist wison? those were the same idea, the same execution, and the debate surrounding them is strikingly similar to the one today. did those turn us fascist, and the bushes are such good puppetmasters that we only now realise it? no! it's not a good thing, but it's also not a permenant thing, so long as we get our goddamn act together and take them down.

[not systems]

63. Take a look at the federal budget...

if the pie wedge for the war machine doesn't
tell what this nation believes in nothing will.

I'm not going to defend Wilson because of the
D by his name. I don't think he was fighting
for democracy or that his propaganda machine
and dissent crackdowns were anything other than
millitarism in service of empire under guise of
fighting for freedom.

Wilson is a big hero of the current neo-con hawks.

Just because I think things are bad today doesn't
mean I think that they were good in the past.
I think the past is nightmare we have yet to wake
from.

[nemo137]

68. it's been like this since we took an internationalist tack in the 40's

am i to believe that we've been fascist since then, or that we've just had our priorities wrong?

[not systems]

70. Believe what you want.

But ask yourself why does the rest of the world
spend so much less than us on the millitary.

If the answer is because we protect them the
my question is why?

Why do we have to control the world and try
to manage all the affairs of all the worlds
people?

What about us makes us the least bit qualified
to rule the world?

We can't even get our own house in order and
still we believe we are a gift to all people.

Is this not the definition of empire?

[nemo137]

74. we spend so much on the military because

for 50 years we precieved this massive threat on not only of economic system, but on our way of life. do you really think you can change that sort of entrenched system on a dime? no. we desparately need to get our house in order, but we're not so far gone that the military is the be all and end all of our existence.

[not systems]

79. Not really getting you here...

so your saying that a "precieved" "massive threat" gave rise
to an "entrenched system" yet you doubt that our society
is controled by the millitary industrial complex.

We are the most millitary adventurist nation in the world.

We are huge arm dealers. The largest WMD stocks.
The leader have published plans for a 100 years of
continued millitary dominance with a program of
systematic serial warfare with no parallel except
to the plans that layed waste to Europe and Asia
in WWII.

If we aren't becoming "fascist" we are taking on many of
it's worst aspects. Xenophobia, imperialism, millitarism,
and widespread systems of public control though propaganda.

Call it what you want but if the glove fits.

[nemo137]

82. no, the glove doesn't fit.

if the glove fit, you and i wouldn't be having this conversation. we'd be interned for trying. yes, our military-industrial complex is horrible, but it is not the defining characteristic of our society. do you see that distinction? it's an important one.

plus, i can't seem to hammer enough that we retain the power of the vote. if we get out there and agitate, we can work towards a better government. call me overly optimistic, or a fascist tool, or naive, or too young to understand, but i'm glad i still remember that the majority of the country didn't vote for bush, and more and more of them are realizing that he's not what they want to represent them.

[not systems]

85. Ok I agree.

Things can and hopefully will change in the next election.

I do think you are overly optimistic or maybe just not
cynical enough about the true nature of power.

Power is a force that exists and grows by it own logic
of totality.

Voting is the best tool we have for direct change but the
media propaganda machine that has risen in these last
decades is unlike anything that has existed before.

You can't use the past for exact examples but you
assume that "fascism" implies the complete control
of thought, it doesn't.

Fascism is not the same as totalitarianism. Fascism
constrains actions but totalitarianism constrains thought
and action. Fascism is very closly related to oligarchy
and it's intersection with corprate power.

[bpilgrim]

98. you mean when we embraced our new role of EMPIRE

when we knew we were not only going to 'win' the war but come out way ahead?

when the head of GE was on the hill advocating 'permanant war' since it was GREAT for the economy and our moral obligation to provide 'security' to the world?

you mean when we disussed the difficulty there would be in maintaining the FACADE of benevolent freedom lovers 'looking out' for the world?

when the facad becomes to expensive or no longer effective it will be abandon and there shall be no doubt.

:hi:

peace

[Zuni]

129. that is not 'Fascism'

state and buisness interests have been joined for thousands of years, all over the world.
Fascism is an ultra-nationalistic mass movement, opposed to both liberal democracy and free markets and to Marxism. It is a 'third way'.

It is also a revenge movement.

[Zuni]

127. That is not what Mussolini said

Corporatism was a system where a 'Corporate council' representing various interest groups and lobbies, (corporations or corporates), would lobby the government on behalf of their interests. There were buisness, labor, peasant, military and other 'corporations' in the council.

[not systems]

12. Corporatism is fascism...

according to Benito Mussolini.

You are confusing fascism with national socialism.

[Zuni]

126. Benito Mussolini also said 'I am fascism'

so technically, according to Benito Mussolini, no state since 1945 could be fascist.
Corporatism is not a state with big buisness. It is a system of government with a corporate council representing different segments of the population---more of a big lobby---with lobbyists for various interests.

[cprise]

52. Creeping government takeover: War On Jobs = More Soldiers

...of course for fascism this has to have that right-wing M.O.

There is the apparent "war on jobs", and the concurrent military adventurism and recruiting. They are attempting to shrink the middle class (we're dangerous) and subsume much of the lower class in military service.

Also: Information is tied to economic life, and the military has been installed (oversees) mass media outlets.

[janekat]

13. We're just becoming stupid - that's all there is to it

n/t

[AP]

16. The more you watch Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, the supider you get...

...it's not that we're getting dumber, it's that the media is filling our heads with lies.

[hiphopnation]

28. At what point

do we stop blaming the media and start blaming the people for not having the where-with-all to educate themsleves, get up and get involved?

[AP]

55. Well, when 400K-1mil kids have to drop out of college becuause Republicans

are destroying the economy, why do we blame the victims for being uneducated.

[hiphopnation]

73. Precisely

why I advocate that people educate themselves (see my first post). In thier communites and thier families; start organizing at grass-roots levels and try to rethink and rebuild what we know as the Democratic Party.

That's an awfuly broad assertion you make and I'm loath to even dignify it with a response.

[AP]

87. People should educate themselves, sure. But they should also vote for

dems who are willing to fund public education so that, you, know, the village can raise the child.

And where's the broad question that you're loath to, uh, 'dignify" with an answer.

i'm saying blaying the public for being uneducated when Republicans and Fox news is doing everything they can to make sure people are uninformed and uneducated is the equivalent of blaming the victim.

[hiphopnation]

147. I've not doubt

that Faux news and other such organizations are, for thier part, responsible for the staggeringly ill-informed public, but the blame doesn't entirely rest on thier shoulders. Remember that a very small portion of the public gets thier info from cable news.

But back to my point which is the blame does not lie squarly on the shoulders of a biased media OR the public ENTIRELY. It's probably a little bit of the biased news, a little bit of the dismal public education system (YES in tatters partly becasue of the budget crunch that bushco has aggrivated), AND the fact that Americans are lazy and don't have a thirst for objective, in-depth news information.

In short: it's not as not a cut and dry issue EITHER way.

[rwenos]

15. Glad to Meet You -- What's Your Game?

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste.
I've been around a long long time
and my name is writ in space.

I was in the generals rank
When the Blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank.

Why would you go to such pains to refute the charge of fascism? Fascism is a political theory which brings together the power of the state and the power of the corporations, enforced by violent methods of social control and scapegoating of competitive segments of the population.

Modern "Movement" Conservatism is clearly borrowing from fascist ideas.

What the hell else would you call it?

[nemo137]

21. i would call it conservatism.

it's not borrowing enough ideas to be fascist. how is it controling the population? are reporters being killed? do you have trouble finding unbiased information? are you afraid of being killed if you vote the wrong way, or having your liscense plate number taken by a cop if you sport an "impeach bush" bumper sticker on your car?

i'll turn your question back on you. why are you at such pains to create charges of fascism?

[rwenos]

31. You're Defining Fascism Too Narrowly

Nemo:

You're defining fascism as necessarily involving the killing of reporters. God knows that can happen -- and maybe it will in America. Certainly, the potential is there, with so many gun nuts. If you don't believe me, read "The Turner Diaries" again.

What you appear to be missing is the linkage between corporate power and government power. When the corporations control the government, and the government begins to back up corporate interests with force, you're seeing a fascist government.

As a corollary, I believe you have too broadly defined conservatism. The truly conservative vote in this election would have been against the recall, on grounds it was (and will be) dramatically destabilizing.

Fascism is a political theory. It depends upon force to thrive, but does not necessarily need force to rise to power -- in that, it is quite similar to Stalinist communism. Intellectually beguiling theory -- horrific in practice.

[nemo137]

37. if i'm defining it too narrowly, it's as an antithesis to

the way, way overbroad use of it on this board, and in other forums.

i use killing of reporters as, i guess, the extreme example. there are other ways for the government to control the news, but this is the most dramatic.

the problem with the definition of conservatism if that there are two strains. one strain is the traditional, more liberatarian strain (which i have some sympathy for), which would oppose the recall, support prop 54, and oppose the the invasion of iraq. the other strain still has some conservative hallmarks, such as opposition to social programs, and a desire to preserve national identity, but also sees political power as desirable to implement this agenda. this is the brand that people label fascist. this is also the brand that has the corporate support, since the void left by removed gvt. regulations and programs mean good opportunities for it. it's not a partnership in the moussolini-fascist sense.

[rwenos]

43. Government/Corporate Ties

I'm puzzled you don't see the connection between corporate power and government. The Bush Administration has hijacked the U.S. Military to capture oil fields in Iraq, because the Saudi oilfields have become insecure. The Bush Adminstration has de-regulated media ownership rules, allowing combines which never before would have withstood antitrust scrutiny. What are there, six big media companies now?

Now the corporate media and big aerospace companies, not to mention the oil companies, have it all lined up their way. They've got a Republican governor who will do nothing to stop their operations in the 5th largest economy. Better to take over California than France!

That's what makes this takeover so obvious (and so fascist) -- it's so clearly tied to corporate interests.

[nemo137]

47. i don't belive that the iraq war was all corporate

are major corporations, and administration buddies, benefitting? of course! but as i see it, the main reason that a group within the administration wanted this was was to establish an american hegemony*, and used corporate benefits to bring the rest along.


*this is far and away the most fascist thing about the current administration, but does not make them fascist.

[RainDog]

108. Bush is not a conservative

Bush isn't anything, really, other than a spoiled, selfish, self-serving hypocrit.

but his way of governing, yes, does seem more akin to definitions of fascism than conservatism.

did you read Ron Paul's speech called "neo-conned?" it was on his web site. he's hardly a liberal, and he does not define this administration as conservative.

have you ever read Gross' book, Friendly Fascism? Or looked at the readings about "post fascism?"

we do not live in the same era as Franco's Spain or Mussolini's Italy, and the methods of propaganda are much more sophisticated.

but in answer to your questions-

yes, reporters are being killed. Remember the Palestine Hotel shootings? Christiane Amanpour, Reporters without Borders, and others all claimed that there was no reason for the tank to fire on the hotel, other than to shoot reporters.

Yes, there have been fascists who have interferred with American's right to vote...for instance, the Republican operatives who were flown in to Florida to intimidate and stop the vote counters in the Dade county recount. They were flown down on an Enron plane, I think I remember...you should check it out for yourself.

Yes, I have trouble finding unbiased information if I rely on American television or newspapers to tell me the truth.

this has been demonstrated to me over and over...the Chavez coup reporting in April 2002, the reports on demonstrations which minimized and marginalized people from all walks of American life. The failure to report on Bush policies and the failure to alert the American people to the disconnect between what Bush says and what he does.

people have been intimidated by others for their opposition to Bush. Bush established fenced in areas for Americans who want to exercise their right to address their president with their grievances in the one way we have...peaceful protest.

yes, people are being harassed in this country because they have an Arabic heritage. people have been held illegally and denied their rights because Ashcroft decided he would and he did.

corporate and state power have merged. Cheney's energy policy task force was made up of Enron and who? Unocal? Did they get their pipeline with the invasion of Afghanistan? Yes. Did Enron get their deregulation with their manipulation of the California energy crisis? yes.

Bush's anti-environmental stances are geared to enrich a few corporate fat cats, at the expense of the well being of the rest of Americans and the world.

Bush's tax cut is regressive and was a lie to the American people, since most got a total of $24.00 in the 40k range, and that will no doubt be taken up in state taxes to cover all those things the federal govt is defaulting on.

Norquist's desire to "strangle the govt" is a lie, too. They want to kill all programs which do not benefit them and their cronies. The republicans insisted on 100% coverage for the Insurance companies, while dems wanted to only go for 80%. That money could have supplied family medical premium extensions for millions of unemployed, but Bush said he couldn't afford it.

That, again, is an example of the merger of state and corporate power because the state is only used to benefit corporations, and not citizens. And, no, corporations are not citizens, and they have "rights" that no reasonable American could expect to have...such as establishing offshore residency to avoid taxes.

Wolfie and Perle and all those don't care about running deficits. this is not conservative. The more they bankrupt this nation, the more cannon fodder they create for their wars without end.

Where I live, the FBI visited many people and flew over my city "observing" -- whatever.

Peace activists have been denied the right to fly in planes.

Maybe you should read "They thought they were Free" -- a book about the German people who lived under Nazism. They also didn't think their govt was a problem, or a bad thing.

Goggle Chip Berlet and read his essay on fascism.

The "faith-based" initiatives can also be seen as a way to repudiate enlightenment principles, much like Scalia and others have argued that the enlightenment was a bad thing because it usurped the authority of the church.

So, no, this is not conservatism. Just ask the people at the Cato Institute, or ask the guy at Judicial Watch.

Ask Umberto Eco. Ask George Seldes from the grave. Seldes said that the twentieth century's history was all about lies. Lies that Franco's Spain was anything other than fascism. Lies that hid that american fascists aided and abetted the nazis.

Read about General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket" recount of how he was asked by a member of J.P. Morgan's company and a member of the duPont family to be the figurehead for a fascist coup after they assassinated FDR.

Maybe the truth is that Americans don't even know what democracy is anymore because we have been reduced to consumers, rather than producers. We think we consume democracy via an "entertaining" recall in CA, or in yelling matches on tv which are only about insults, and not about policy or the history of various policies.

Ask yourself why Bush and Reagan actively recruited fascists and neo-nazis into the republican party. Ask why they actively recruit racists like the Bob Jones crowd.

Ask yourself if people thought, from the beginning, that Hitler would kill so many people just because they were Jewish or gypsies or homosexuals or mentally disabled or were opposed to them.

[Selwynn]

18. The definition of fascism...

given by Mussolini is "the mergance of Corporate and State Power" which he said could also be called "Corporatism."

And modern American is not fascist.... how?

[Selwynn]

20. Dictonary definition of fascism:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Wow... that sounds EERILY FAMILIAR....

[Selwynn]

22. Put another way:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator BUSH, stringent socioeconomic controlsCORPORATE WELFARE, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorshipASHCROFT,PATRIOT ACT, DESTRUCTION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."If you're not with use your with the Terrorist, Unilateral Pre-emption in the name of "national" interests, etc."

[bpilgrim]

25. well put

:toast:

peace

[AP]

26. And on that racism/nationalism thing...don't forget Prop 54 and drivers...

...licenses for illegal immigrants -- both were issues in this eleciton.

Creeping fascism or galloping fascism? That's the only question.

[nemo137]

33. it's actually possible the most traditionally conservative issue on...

...this ballot. the desire to maintain the status quo, and defend it from "outsiders." that's not a marker of fascism. it's a nationalist-populist idea that became part of fascsit ideology to get the "average man" on their side, by playing to that fear.

[AP]

56. This election was about "change", latino-bashing, women-bashing, Hitler-

admiration, propostion 54'ing, and wealth concentration.

[nemo137]

64. no, it wasn't. it was about a rich man seeking political gain, and playing

popular discontent over a bad economy like a drum, adroitly manipulating the media to make it look like more than it was. the fact that schwertzenegar was chosen as standard bearer was a cynical, lowest common denominator ploy that was unbeliveably stupid, but not fascist.

[AP]

88. His strong-man image and his hostility to latino immigrants was also

part of the message.

Are you sure you're in the right forum?

Look if it were 1932 or 36 and we were watching Triumph of the Will and were arguing over whether it was fascist you and I would probably be making the same arguments we're making over Arnold. But you know what? By 1942, I think it became pretty clear that Triumph of the Will was fascist propaganda.

I think in a bout 10 years we're not going to have any illusions over whether Arnold and Bush were fascists.

[nemo137]

94. 2 things:

1.)"are you sure you're in the right forum?"
if you want to win the next election at all, you need to realise that the vast majority of people voting with you are not voting to stem some sort of rising fascist tide, they are voting to remove a bad president, and repair the damage he's done. so the answer is: yes, i am in the right forum.

2.) no, we wouldn't have been making the same arguements about triumph of will. that movie is obviously ideological. arnold is not an ideologue. he is a tool that the republicans used to take the governorship away from the democrats.

[nemo137]

27. if corporate welfare = fascism, than most of the western world is fascist

and if rhetoric, however illadvised or downright wrong, is the be all and end all of a government's foreign policy, then christ help us!

[Selwynn]

29. I never said it wasn't (nt)

[AP]

57. Exactly. Creeping fascism or sprinting fascism? That's the only

question.

[nemo137]

67. Fan-Tastic! let's all just give up now! if all we can do is slow the tide

then why bother? after all, fascism is fascism, so let's all flee to canada. but wait, they're fascist too. damn. england? no, that's even worse. i've got it! France! no, no, the almost elected le pen. hm... well, nothing left to do, let's all link arms and walk into the sea.


honestly. are you so pessimistic after only 3 years you've resigned yourselves to living in a dictatorship? god help you if bush actually wins in 2004.

[Solly Mack]

71. "so let's all flee to canada. but wait, they're fascist too. damn."

Could Canadian DU'ers check in on this, please?



:shrug:

[nemo137]

76. going off of another poster's quip that the rest of the world may also

be facist already. really nothing against the canadians.

[Solly Mack]

81. aw...OK

gotcha

[Selwynn]

75. In the word's of Tolkien...

I believe we are, and have been, fighting "the long defeat."

When the fall's all that's left, it matters a great deal how a man falls. That's another quote from somewhere I dont remember...

[AP]

89. You should have read my post earlier about taking it to the streets.

I'm not saying 'give it up'. I'm saying understand what your up against.

I can't believe this. In the same day I've been accused of being too idealistic and of giving up easily.

[cprise]

65. Not with bail-outs coinciding with executive pay raises and mass layoffs!

Corporate barons are rewarded handsomely under fascism as I recall, and the rulers prefer a lean workforce with workers shifted to the military sector securing resources abroad.

There is a purely military marker too:

Absolute national certitude of superiority and exemption from international treaties and codes of conduct.

[hiphopnation]

32. In defense of poster

Terror and cencorship are not rampant YET. Your post generalizes the situation to fit the definition. Neat trick, but try again.

[bpilgrim]

38. 911 and PATRIOT ACT

next

peace

[hiphopnation]

46. Equating 9/11 with fascist-like terrorism??

I don't think so. 9/11, an isolated, and unprecedented incident in American history; and I believe bush* DID know something about it.

But we don't have a military "defense minister" marching around the country rounding up randomly selected citizens and comitting terrorist acts upon them. (I stress YET)

Like an earlier poster said, it's a question of the speed at which we are moving towards a fascist-like government.

And if you think that the Patriot Act even comes close to the kind of censorship that would be exercised in a fascist regime, you're fooling yourself and you don't understand what fascism really is.

We're inching ever close, but are we there yet? I don't think so.

[Selwynn]

39. That's your defense?

It's not rampant .... YET?

Ok. :eyes:

Censorship is rampant. I am terrified of the totalitarian power both being sought and already effectively aquired by the state under Bush. We can agree that the definition of what constitutes rampant is subjective, however it is fairly clear that we are at least setting a course closer and closer towards fitting the definition of fascism to a T. Would you deny this and argue instead that that this adminstration is taking us in the opposite direction.

Your trick was not so neat. Now you try again. (Sorry, added that becuase I get sick of stupid patronizing condescending quips like that. Can't we just disagree without trying to imply the other person's point of view is stupid? I'll work on being better about that if you will - actually I'll work on it whether you will or not, becuase I'd rather not be like you(here) if I can avoid it.)

[hiphopnation]

53. Yes

That's my defense; of the original poster who makes a good point when e/she says that America is not yet in the stranglehold of fascism.

If you think that censorship is rampant right now, I hate to think how you're going to react when real fascist censorship is actually put into place.

Your personal emotional terror, though arguably justified, is not the same thing as you being persecuted, jailed without trial, torn apart from your family, and opressed.

Otherwise, yes, I agree that the course is being set for such measures. We at least have things like DU and other havens on the internet.

Peace

[AP]

62. Who do they need to censor? None of the media seems to care about telling

the truth, and the few that do are so margianilized that the fascists probably benefit from having easly discredited sources calling them what they are.

Your second last paragraph, by the way, is probably a pretty good description of Guantanamo Bay.

[AP]

59. Are you kidding? We started a war and the media ADMITS they censored them-

selves. The only reason the government didn't have to duct-tape their mouths is because they're all huge corporations and were on board with the self-censorship.

Notice that the person who talked about it is one of their most famous reporters who recently married. She's not worried about her job. Anybody who is has kept their mouths shut.

[Lori Price CLG]

40. Right, Amerika already IS Fascist.

Amerika moved past *becoming* Fascist a long time ago... John AshKKKroft and Karl Rove?
-Lori Price

[nemo137]

50. yes, ashcroft and rove.

who alone can undo 214 years of democratic-republican tradition, plus 13 years of confederation, plus 200-odd years of colonial self-government.

these are not typical fascist leaders. they do not have personality cults. they are not omnipresent figures. we don't have pictures of them in every classroom.

neither is bush a fascist leader. he is more mocked, or looked at as the lesser of two evils, than loved. he is not feared, generally speaking.

these people are not strong enough to undo 400 years of history.

[mermaid]

123. You Beat Me To It....

I was gonna say the same thing...no, America isn't BECOMING Fascist...IT ALREADY IS!!

Evidence: The PATRIOT Act, rigged elections...what more do you need to convince you we have already BECOME Fascist?

I predict if Bush wins in 2004, that's when the REAL boogey-woogey starts! Because THEN he don't gotta worry about getting re-elected.

Predictions if Bush gets Elected...

PATRIOT Act will be horribly abused to stifle political dissenters.

Civil liberties and Civil Rights will be rolled back to prehistoric levels.

They will seek to repeal the Amendment that requires only 2 terms for a President.

They will seek to repeal the requirement that a President be born in USA.

Schwartzenegger will then stand to follow Bush when Bush leaves. That or Jeb Bush.

There will continue to be no verifiable audit trail on votes, so, no matter what, those in power will get the result they want...and no amount of outcry will change it. The corporate media will not give coverage to stories of rigged elections, and those who dare question will be ruthlessly abused by the new powers of the PATRIOT Act.

And that's just for starters. Lemme sleep on this overnight, and see what other nightmares I can come up with!

WAKE UP FOLKS!!!
WE NEED TO QUIT THE INFIGHTING NOW!!! RIGHT NOW!! EGO'S ASIDE, WE ALL NEED TO GET BEHIND THE MAN MOST LIKELY TO UNSEAT BUSH IN 2004!! THIS IS CRITICAL TO THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY!!

RIGHT NOW,IT APPEARS DEAN IS OUR MAN. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY WELSLEY CLARK. HE SPENT HIS LIFE SUPPORTING REPUBLICANS, AND NOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE, ALL OF A SUDDEN, HE'S GONNA CARRY OUR FLAG?? GET REAL, FOLKS!!

WAKE UP!! HOWARD DEAN IS OUR ONLY CHANCE!!!

Dean in 2004!!!

[nemo137]

141. sweet christ!

do you really think that because schwertzeneger won in california they're really going to try and make him president, and that this will usher a dark age?

either you're making a fantastic parody of some of the hysteria on here, or you're far, far gone.

[cprise]

45. We are well on our way

* Demonstrators cannot get within a mile of a major conference, and often they are not even mentioned in the press. There are your soldiers: The police state. What they know about us dwarfs what fascists knew about their neighbors.

* We have a race-war based on subtext; Overt racists are resented not for their hatred, but for making whites self-conscious and for drawing attention. Over 1/3 of all black men are in prison.

* Thousands of foreign people are disappeared by the state.

* Defense-related treaties are being dispensed with at an alarming rate.

* The more crime goes down, the more crime hysteria is generated. More people are put through prison here than in any other country.

* When people are shot or locked-up over politics (or race) in this country, it is usually based on the rule "you can always find something to throw at them" and when they can't they will misconstrue a fantasy for the media to run away with. It is happening over and over now. We need to evaluate the extent of our political prisoners.

* The rule of the day is "Do Something, Now!". That is the core of the fascisti spirit. That something is supposed to involve money, but money is bad now for civil matters so the police will have to clean up instead. There is widespread adrenaline addiction in every part of our culture. The religious buzzword is "power", and the business buzzword is "agressive"; The leisure buzzword is "extreme". Action above all!

* An unjustifiable, unprecedented military machine that owns a good part of our media and is constantly trying to manufacture excuses for its growth. American anger is being directed "downward and outward". We are running out of weak foreign targets.

* A core low-income, white racial demographic supporting rulers that continually make their lives worse. They are becoming like a very large spring compressed close to its tolerances.

* There is an apparent "war on jobs", coinciding with a zealous military recruiting effort.

* Meanwhile, the state is primarily concerned with corporate survival: The baron-investors and CEOs clean-up and then hoard their money. The very same are placed in charge of regulatory bodies for their industries.

* National unity, and hence identity, are crucial now. Totalitarian-esque, over-the-top flag displays are common in businesses and public places.

* Overt intent for global domination, including culture and ideology.

[nemo137]

60. many of these are more conservative (for lack of a truly good term)

the support from poor, white males is conservative, it was co-opted by the fascists.

likewise, the nationalist feeling.

the "backdoor political prisoners" are a function of a powerful security conscious government, not rabid fascist ideology.

"do something now"- the rallying cry of radicals the world over, and also of governments fearful of losing their mandate. which do you think i see in this government?

the shedding of treaties is a more traditional conservative venture, following washington's advice against foreign alliances.

crime histeria is reactionary. it is played up by conservative politicans to exploit latent racial tensions in this country, not affect radical socio-political change.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rainbows]

61. Fascist Since Before You Were Born

When corporations gained and secured more rights and less liabilities than the citizens, corporatism (fascism) was born. Wake up and smell the devastation, its roots trace back to Lincoln and beyond.

[nemo137]

78. so our republic is so tainted by corporatism

that no hope is possible?

[slaveplanet]

69. are you

really young?

This country does have a history of soldiers(police) breaking up peaceful demonstrations and non peaceful riots. Many provacateurs have been seen to disrupt peaceful assemblies in order to bring in the facsist thugs.

Last time round(europe), in order to get the pendulum to swing back , required a full scale invasion of a continent and millions of lost lives. There are places on this planet where it still has yet to swing. It's citizens are slaves of differing degree.

We are TAX slaves pressed down under the folly of fractional reserve banking, grasping the last bastions of what some refer to as freedom.

If you believe the government is here to serve the people as it was framed to do, by our founding fathers.....then you are a fool
those values have been changed ,distorted , misinterpereted, and outright ignored....the almighty dollar rules(for now)

I hate to let you in on a secret , Full on fascist slavery is right around the corner.(RFID,BIOCHIP,BBignitions,NeoCONSTAR,GPS,NAT ID cards) these folks aint playin round...

fascism,communism, Marxism, slavery are not tinfoil hat conspiracty theories

they are real

real scary

still a republic?
tonight we are all republicans
banana republicans!

it is right in your face...LOOK http://www.submunition.com/mtype/archives/000284.php

[nemo137]

77. i'm 17, my major hobby is history and political science.

and i would argue that there has not been the systematic suppression of dissent on a level that goes from the elites trying to maintain their power (which they will do in any form of government) to a radical fascist takeover.

[not systems]

83. friendly fascism

If you look at people in Nazi Germany most thought
they were free.

To the average person the jackboot never grinds.

They accept and rationalise what happens in order
to prevent cognitive dissonance from interfering
with day to day life.

See:

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm

[slaveplanet]

86. I didn't

want to berate you too much...I simply made an inference from your post that you haven't unraveled the layers of the Octopus quite yet...That you were either a neophyte or not very smart.
I do however think you are smart for presenting this thread tonight. Something most 17 year olds should be doing but aren't. so you can't be bad.

The sinister elements that lurk have taken many of us a great deal of time to figure out , and a lot comes from experience of how things used to be.

There is a great deal of evidence out there. go get it , share it with your peers, do it before the info is no longer available

your on the right track grasshopper

know your enemy

in times of peace , prepare for war...an so on

as far as your statement above goes ....no there has not been a radical takeover yet. It has not been necessary yet. But peel back the layers, and you will see the apparatus being moved into place.


What would happen if the GRID went out for more than 72hrs?
economic collapse?
major Bioterror attack?
major ecological disaster?
interuption in the corporate controlled food supply?

how many will beg for the apparatus

problem , reaction, solution

you WILL be seeing the apparatus sprung like a rat trap
CODE RED....let the games begin

they've been training for it for years


Go read GULAG ARCHIPELAGO by Solzhenitsyn
if your still not convinced. see why it is so important to get it right before it happens.

[bpilgrim]

100. have you heard of the USA Patriot Act, yet...

young buck?

gitmo... preventive war, illegal combatants?

these are the very same things that imperial japan did during wwII.

and we all know what the judge at nuremburg had to say about their acts and every american has been raised on just how EVIL those crimes were.

"the only thing new in this world is the HISTORY you don't know" - TRUMAN

:hi:

peace

[nemo137]

103. yeah, i want it repealed. i still believe it can be repealed,

i believe we can set right what we've done, and dig ourselves out of this hole we've lovingly dug. i believe that the first acts of any democratic administration should be to close down gitmo, and issue and executive order forever banning that kind of thing.

but i believe all those things can be done.

:hi:

a little optimism here maybe, or fighting spirit?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LunaC]

84. Characteristics of Fascism

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia)and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each....and we share them all!

1.. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans,
symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere,
as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in
fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored
in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other
way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations,
long incarcerations of prisoners, etc


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
-
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to
eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious
minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.


4. Supremacy of the Military -

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is
given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the
domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are
glamorized.


5. Rampant Sexism -

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively
male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are
made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed
and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family
institution.


6. Controlled Mass Media -

Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other
cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or
sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially
in war time, is very common.


7. Obsession with National Security -

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.


8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in
the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and
terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major
tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's
policies or actions


9. Corporate Power is Protected -

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the
ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually
beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


10. Labor Power is Suppressed -

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist
government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely
suppressed.


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher
education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and
other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the
arts and letters is openly attacked.


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to
enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses
and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a
national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.


13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and
associates who appoint each other to government positions and
use governmental power and authority to protect their friends
from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national
resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen
by government leaders.


14. Fraudulent Elections -

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times
elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even
assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control
voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of
the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries
to manipulate or control elections.

http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2003/msg00700.html

[FDRrocks]

91. Oi!

Read that months ago, almost forgot, thanks for recalling (I can bookmark it on my comp). When it is put in that perspective, it is REALLY scary.

[Iverson]

92. a kick for your reminder

n/t

[nemo137]

96. 2 points.

1 (nitpicky point): franco, suharto, and the latin american regiemes were authoritarian, not fascist.

2 (actual point): we don't have those as defining characteristics of our government and society to the point where it eclipeses other characteristics/values.

[JanMichael]

99. Two really nitpicky points.

1. Franco is universally considered a Fascist. One could say the same of Pinochet. You seem stuck on very narrow labels. Try seeing these people for what they really are. I mean, hell, if you use a really narrow definition you could label Hitler a Fascist, and becase he wasn't exactly the same, Musillinni a simple Authoritorian. That would be mis-taken.


2 Your comment: (actual point): we don't have those as defining characteristics of our government and society to the point where it eclipeses other characteristics/values.

You didn't start off saying that we'd reached that point, you said this:

america is not becoming fascist.

Many people contend otherwise. That in fact we're poised to eclipse normalised US norms of political conflict.

Surely you don't suggest that "It Can't Happen Here" do you?

[nemo137]

107. i suggest that it can happen here, but

not as easily as some here seem to think. i also suggest that saying it's already happened will only help it to happen, making it a self-fullfilling prophecy.

[slaveplanet]

113. definition

here's the definition from a 1958 websters collegiate:

Fascism;1.the principals of the fascist; also the movement or governmental regime embodying their principals. 2.Any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies,exercizing the regimentation of industry,commerce,and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppresion of the opposition.

how many of the above havent yet happened ? besides rigid censorship

[nemo137]

116. 3 of the 4

regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, forcible suppression of opposition, and, as you mentioned, rigid censorship.

[slaveplanet]

125. since 1913

regimentatinon of industry&finance has been taking place..fed reserve

forcible suppresion of the opposition-take this one up with Bev Harris

[nemo137]

139. 2 questions:

1: is it regimented to serve the state, and only the state?

2: is it systematic, entrenched, and geared to serve the state?

[inthecorneroverhere]

140. 'strong leader'

Numerous callers this morning to the Diane Rheem show expressed strong concern about the California situation spreading to the rest of the country.

A rather large percentage of the Ahnold voters expressed desire for a 'strong leader.' By contrast, Davis was a 'wuss.'

I remember joking around with some kid in college who was taking German. He'd do stuff like say "I vant a strong leader!" and give a fake stiff-arm salute.

This dynamic is a lot like the interplay between the 'Fuhrerprinzip' (translation - leader principle) and the 'wimpy' Weimar Republic that left the Germans with huge reparations (debt) and a mess involving economic depression and the hyperinflation of 1924 that wiped out most ordinary Germans' savings.

Mussolini and Franco were both fascists who were reluctant to enter WWII on the Axis side. In power since 1923, Mussolini resisted Hitler's 1938-onward goading to war until 1942. Mussolini finally got bullied into WWII, which got him hanged in the public square.

In other words, Franco and Mussolini were heads of corporative states with controlled media and some repression, who were in turn bullied by a bigger bully, Hitler.

Franco won the brutal Spanish Civil War, but largely owing to his refusal to enter WWII, remained in power until some time in the 1980s.

Franco and Mussolini were not such overt racists as Hitler, but they shared a weltanschaung (world view) that involved corporatism, nationalism, 'need for a strong leader,' and some of the other components in the list in this thread. They had paramilitary organizations out in the streets, which is something we don't see here.

Conclusion: 'It can happen here.' It hasn't happened, at least not to a widespread degree. There is enabling legislation present, and a portion of the population is clamoring for that 'strong leader' that was a joke a number of years ago. Most people who dealt with actual fascism are now in their 80s, and young people are more generations removed from WWII vets than before.

If I were an M.D., I would say that the 'patient' (the US) is in a 'high risk group.'

[slaveplanet]

105. hey Nemo

you want to uncover worldwide fascism,
you want to go to the head of the class

I've got a project for you

go here http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX

try to listen to one or 2 of these per evening

they will blow your mind
you will astound your teachers or professors

then restart this tread in a month or so
I'd be interested to see what you think of these.

[YourDad]

90. yes it is

i am scared of what america is shaping into, call it whatever you want but it is not something i want to be near. remember the jews said to wait everything out when the nazis came to power and started taking over countries. the smart ones got out in time and moved elsewhere.

[Zhade]

93. Yeah, and next you'll be saying Bush actually won in 2000. Please.

We don't have time to rationalize ourselves blind to the obvious truth.

[nemo137]

95. we also don't have time to fantasize.

all the hue and cry about the impending fascist state only detracts from the importance of us actually winning in 2004. please.

[bpilgrim]

101. same thing asscrust is saying...

i don't think you will find much sympathy for that POV here.

peace

[nemo137]

102. so john ashcroft is encouraging dems to keep their heads about them

so they can throw him out on his ear come 1/20/05? that sounds uncharacteristically nice of him. are you sure you're not thinking of someone else?

[bpilgrim]

104. yeah... don't get all excited about "phantoms of lost liberty"

"To those who pit Americans against immigrants, citizens against non-citizens, to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve," Ashcroft told the Senate Judiciary Committee.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/06/inv.ashcroft.hearing/

move along... nothing to see here.

peace

[nemo137]

109. you're not looking at phatoms of past liberties

you're looking at the phantoms of future lost liberties, and giving them more substance than the deserve.

i'd always thought that liberals tended to belive in the essential goodness of human beings, and were generally optimistic. i'm not seeing it in this thread. i've yet to see one person say "ok, we can still win." christ, it's almost like you people want fascism.

[bpilgrim]

111. CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER

is what i am refering to and i am not alone ex-CIA are saying it as well not just some 'long hair' liberal.

to better make my way i prefer to chart out the obstacles along my course to better reach my destination.

keep up the good fight :toast:

peace

[slaveplanet]

115. fight or flight

My Mom lives in Sweden ....you'd be astounded at how many EX-CIA are parked over there trying to get the word out....sadly little of it is reaching our shores

[nemo137]

119. if it's clear and present danger, then let's focus on it, goddamnit

as a disruption in our essential liberties, which is undoubtably is, rather than as a harbinger of encroaching fascism, which a good chunk of people who otherwise are with you think is fucking loony.

funny thing, i made this thread with a vague idea of trying to get people focused on the present, and fighting the current enemies, but it's ended up debating enemies past, present, and future, with varying degrees of coherence and tact.

[bpilgrim]

121. thats why i started a new media outlet...

http://news.GlobalFreePress.com

i am used to people of being ignorant of what i am telling them, doesn't cause me to stop spreading the word despite what they might think of me personally.

EACH 1 TEACH 1

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[slaveplanet]

114. we will win

but many will die .......and I mean MANY

[nemo137]

122. how bout we prevent those deaths?

[slaveplanet]

124. I'm all with you there

the major problem is it takes so long to connect the dots, that it is hard to explain the deceit over a cup of coffee....people have to be self starters,and focus on the right enemy. A daunting task indeed. Peaceful means are always best, but that'll take a great awakening and unity. And as the other poster said-people still will treat you as a LOON.

I'm trying to think of that quote.

In the beginning , the patriot is a hated and feared man
Others will only join when it cost nothing to do so.

or something to that effect

[LunaC]

144. And your proposal is......?

As a participant of this board that reguloarly delves into bottom-line truths about today's political world and someone who can't/won't fully grasp that the country is truly in the initial stages of a full-blown fascist state, how in the hell do you propose to wake up the rest of the citizenry?

[nemo137]

146. remind them that this is not a good government, and does not serve their

interests, without panicking and crying "fascism!" not every bad government is fascist, although bad governments do tend to get worse, so if we can get the people to stop a bad government, all this talk of fascism becomes moot.

[charlie]

117. Oh, for pete's sake

We want fascism? That's not fair at all.

You made the assertion that we're not becoming fascist. Then you proceed to counter opposing views with the argument that full-blown fascism is not here now (midnight knocks at the door, jailed reporters and dissidents). Followed by a lot of definition-parsing to show that this regime or that action wasn't textbook fascism, but fit under some other name for oppressive authoritarian ruthlessness.

It can be as easily said that you wouldn't know fascism if it ran over you twice. Think that's a fair thing to say?

[nemo137]

120. no, it wasn't fair, and i'm sorry.

i also didn't expect a dozen people to tell me that my country had already become fascist, and i got caught up argueing with them, rather than trying to press my point that it's not too late to win. part of the problem is also how i titled the thread. if i had known some of the pessimism, i would have called it "america is not fascist," and focused my arguements better.

[Zhade]

142. It's be even better if you accepted the reality of the situation.

If you don't think this country is in the grips of a conversion to a new kind of fascism, don't worry - you'll realize it sooner or later. It's not a "fantasy" (and I'd rather be DEAD than a fascist, so I don't want fascism, thank you).

It really sucks to even argue with you on this - it seems like such a no-brainer to realize that fear keeps people from seeing the truth. You sound like a pretty smart guy - seriously - and your help in stopping the spreading fascism now would be valuable, I have no doubt.

[nemo137]

143. i accept that this is not a good government.

however, not every bad government is fascist. the more we try to attack this as fascism (and by attack, i mean use anti-fascist mindsets and techniques to try to gain electoral victory), the less able we are to attack it in any other way, and that just hurts us.

like i said, i'd not like to see fascism creep into my country, but the more we focus on the spectre of fascism, the less able we are to attack the existing, tangible enemy.

[fujiyama]

145. You have a point...

And I see what it is, but the fact is that the people on this board are really, really, unhappy with recent events. What is happening may or may not be fascism (I'm leaning closer to the former -- we're on the road), but it sure is depressing and bizarre. It certainly isn't the country I studied about in high school history. I read with pride way back what happened to Nixon, and how he was brought down by the press. Well, now that press has rolled over and has become a tool of propaganda. What's happened during my four years of college are truly, astounding. From my first year to now, I've witnessed the theft on an election, the worst terrorist attack on US soil, and an unjustified war using that attack as justification (hell he's used 9/11 as his excuse for all of his policies)...And when questions were raised about the need of this war, their patriotism was questioned and their reputations slandered. That was the first step, then there was the civil liberties...and Ashcroft's speech about phantoms of lost liberty is still the most disturbing thing by far anyone in this administration has said.

I do agree with you that a majority of the people are blind. They don't really understand what's going on. They've been frightened and blinded by the media. I also agree they won't agree with the contention that the nation is spiraling toward a path of dare I say it, fascism. People have way too much invested emotionally. Hell, I'll admit immediately following 9/11 I too had a lot of faith invested in this nation. I was even willing to give the Bush*, the benefit of the doubt. How dumb I was (ok, it was maybe a week or two but still). I thought we'd pull through, and I thought maybe we'll pull together and be a stronger nation. Maybe the nation would realize it could have a positive role to play in this world. But I should have known better, considering who was in power.

Others probably never did fully wake up. They're convinced that we "won" or are "winning" the "war on terror" (isn't it interesting that we've supposedly won in Afghanistan, yet people are still frightened out of their wits)...

But the key is to convince the voters that this administration is not really protecting them and their policies are exploiting the deaths of 3,000 Americans. Such a task is virtually impossible when the media is in bed with the ruling party, and that party is promising these same media corporations it can own more outlets.

And unfortunately the party that should have been holding him up to task also became frightened and collapsed for the most part...

In short, no I don't like the way this nation is headed. Not one bit.