Is being RW genetic?

[StellaBlue]

I was reading a manuscript version of a book that's about to come out that a friend in a publishing company lent me, because she knows I am interested in these topics. For the record, I have now returned it and did not attempt to sell or reproduce it in any way.

The author was reflecting on the recent scientific research on genes and biology as behavior-controllers (especially in the realm of gender and motivations for actions - i.e. the usual old 'women want a secure lifelong mate to insure the viability of their few children' and 'men want to spread their chances of having as many viable offspring as possible'). I got to thinking. About genetics and biology and a conversation/debate going on in another thread a couple of weeks ago about 'free will'.

And I stayed up until 5am thinking about this. Are we far, far more genetically predestined than we have ever believed or would want to know? Are we discovering this more and more as science increases our understanding of genetics? Is the Y really going to go extinct? Is that a good thing?

And I was thinking, further... we can see that chimps have more 'free will' than, say, a fly. Or a chicken. Some animals are very obviously just acting out their biological imperatives at a very unsophisticated, totally un-self-aware level. Another way we are defined as a species is that we have this precious self-awareness and awareness of our own mortality that other animals do not. However, you can see in some 'higher' mammals that they share more 'free will', with us. They are, comparatively, 'more free' than ants or those weird spiders that eat their mates or whatever. They are at least partially self-aware. We obviously do not know (yet?) if they are aware of their mortality, but they are certainly aware of their individuality and can sometimes take actions that are not in accordance with some biological drive to reproduce their genes.

And then I was thinking (stay with me here), that maybe humans have evolved farther, but not that much. Maybe there are among us some who have deeper capabilities to be self-aware and see the inter-relatedness of all things and actions than others, who those of us who are 'more free' look at, dumbfounded, wondering why they shop, shop, shop, and mindlessly watch reality TV and follow the trends and do things that are, individually, self-defeating (like voting Republican). Are they just slaves to their genes? Are they more like our friends the chimps? Or the sheep?

And are we evolving so very slowly because, as a British study recently concluded, women with high IQs have a very low success rate and marriage and reproduction? Okay, that's a stretch - but a quasi-related strand of thought. Other scientists have also determined that women have much greater variety in their genes than men do - that, yes, men ARE really all motivated by the same things (sex, food, power), but women have a much greater spectrum of motivations.

I am just tossing all these ideas around.

But - thinking about some of this gene-replication-imperative stuff... it seems to me that we really don't have as much 'free will' as we like to think. But some of us are MUCH more reflective and self-aware than others. Think about the people you know. Is it true that the RWers are less self-aware and more driven my mindless groupthink and the uncontrollable, irrational, unacknowledged urge to reproduce certain memes? And genes?

[LoKnLoD]

1. I don't know about RW genetics

but stupidity is, so....I think they go hand in hand. But my Mom is a Republican and all her kids are liberals, so I don't think so.

[Seansky]

2. you know, i think so just as we are genetically set up to care

about those opressed...

[StellaBlue]

5. This is what I mean

It seems they are finding more and more genes for everything - genes for 'weigh problems', genes for 'compassion', genes for 'empathy'. Maybe it's not the freepers' fault - they're just like apes who want to hump or eat bananas all the time or whatever.

But the flip side is: are we only progressive because we have some 'human caring' and 'sense of justice' gene?

Or are we more self-aware and able to see the effects of our actions more clearly? That was really my argument. Or thought that I wanted to put out there.

The only reasons I can think of why ANYONE would be a RWer or freeper are:

1. They are greedy bastards who are either part of the oligarchy or desperately want to be (see Michael Moore's theory about why poor folks vote Republican - because they believe in the 'American Dream' and don't want their millions taken away when they amass them, which they are SURE they will!).

2. They are stupid and impervious to both logic and self-awareness.

[Seansky]

13. i don't know, but what i know is that when I am faced with a decision

between being greedy and totally self-centered on one side or fair and responsible on the other side, I can't help recognizing both sides and being forced to choose/lean toward the fair and responsible...

The fact that some of us even consider the possible impact and consequences of our actions on order people makes is by itself part of us. I know people that couldn't imagine not thinking about themselves over everybody else, and I truly believe it doesn't even cross their minds, naturally.

[StellaBlue]

22. This doesn't apply to me (maybe I got too much testosterone in the womb!)

BUT don't you think that in general, women are more empathetic and self-denying in order to help others (most people see their own mother in this light) than men?

For myself, I can't imagine naturally and automatically putting others' needs before my own. I am naturally selfish. However, I also value logic and the idea of interdependence of all things, and I like to think I have what has traditionally been called a CONSCIENCE (and what we DUers often think the RWers must be totally lacking in order to behave as they do).

So, like you, I almost always lean toward the 'compassionate' and 'communal good' rather than sheer greedy self interest. I suppose that's what I meant about the comparative 'more free will' thing. I am not naturally inclined to sacrifice myself for others, but, when I think about the facts (say the REALITY of human DEATH for oil that's going on in Iraq), I cannot be but moved to action.

[pitohui]

3. well of course free will is a joke

if there were free will, who among us would not choose to be rich, successful, healthy, & free? you don't get to choose the most basic facts abt yr identity -- yr race, yr sex, the yr of yr birth, etc. it's a bit rich to think you get to choose yr personality when you come into the world w. yr body & your parents & yr background all picked out

i would agree that in my observation wingers are over-all less intelligent, this would include emotional intelligence, as they appear to lack any capacity for empathy for the other -- a wingnut man cannot imagine what it's like to be a woman, for instance, indeed many winger & fundy men have told me to my face that they cannot imagine such or that it makes them feel sick to even try to imagine being a woman

[formercia]

4. It's probably just inbreeding

Trying to keep the races pure and all that Eugenics crap. We all know what happens to animals that are inbred to produce a homogeneous strain. It's always the mutts that have the best temperment.

[lectrobyte]

6. I think it's more learned. To a great extent, children learn values from

their parents.

[StellaBlue]

8. so you think it's meme rather than gene?

[lectrobyte]

29. That's an excellet way of putting it.

[pitohui]

42. and sometimes parents learn values from their children!

my entire family has gone quite far to the left over the years, & i think as far as my parents are concerned, it's because of the leadership of my sister

[klook]

7. Scientific evidence?

I haven't seen any scientific evidence supporting the theory that ideology is genetically inherited. However, people raised by morAns often end up being morAns themselves. Then again, many people overcome morAnic roots to become enlightened and productive members of society.

And, unfortunately, sometimes people raised by enlightened and productive members of society become morAns. I think it's a matter of will. If your parents are RW idiots, you can will yourself to be an informed, conscientious citizen despite your parents' morAnity.

[StellaBlue]

10. you can will yourself to be an informed, conscientious citizen

That describes me. But then again my mother is more liberal and logical than my father and stepmother.

But you just cannot even logically talk about anything to the latter two - it's like a wall. Glass-eyed.

[klook]

21. Yep, I have relatives and former friends

who fit the glass-eyed wall description. Most of them fall into two categories: 1) narrow economic self-interest or 2) blatant jingoistic racism/nationalism. I don't spend much time trying to change their minds; most of them are so ill-informed they don't even understand what I'm saying to them.

[StellaBlue]

23. Exactly!

And why are they like that? HOW?

This is what us 'liberals' and 'thinkers' don't understand about them. It's like they are actually sheep.

Except fro Rove, et al. Who are naked greedmonsters. That's not at all the same thing as stupidity. Lack of real, complete self-awareness maybe (in that they don't realize they are PART of the world and not THE world, and that THEIR interests are not necessarily the WORLD'S, a problem that in my experience is more common among men than women, except for some exceptions - I would cite Hillary Clinton)... but not stupidity.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. Great post. I LOVE this kind of stuff

I think everything is genetic, particularly reasoning ability. And then again everything is also environmental.

I have a Republican friend who doesn't give a thought about it. Bush is great because he's the President and of course the President is a good man because this is, after all, America. Now you would think she is stupid. But she is a pharmacist and brilliant. She just chooses not to examine this kind of stuff. She is also an incredible gardener. She knows more about herbs than ... well, I don't know who. I was going to say "witch" but I don't want to piss off the Wiccans, you know?

Maybe it is like me... I don't drive. I have no sense of direction. I could barely tell you how to get to my workplace even though I have been coming here for 20 years. I just don't think about it. I have other priorities.

But I'll keep going because I also think there is a big genetic issue for women in their choice of mate. I've read that what women want is a man who is both genetically sound (as in HOT) and who will stay around and help her rear her young. That's a big dichotomy for us to solve because the hot guys are often the least likely to stay. Now, personally now in my life I would choose a nice, average leftie with glasses and narrow shoulders because I'd know we would have something to talk about for years. BUT when I was out choosing, I chose a big, bulky man who can fix cars and build stuff. I chose with my hormones, I guess. Now I'd choose with my brain. (Not saying I am unhappy with my choice, mind you)

I definitely believe there is a strong female component to the Democratic party. It is more a nurturing party, which is traditionally female. And the GOP is all bravado and military, which is obviously more male. So in essence, yeah, sexuality and genetics have got to play into this whole thing a lot.

[StellaBlue]

12. And following this line of thought

If 99% of the high-IQ men still want lower-IQ wives, where does that leave the high-IQ women? I don't know any smart women who would consider marrying 'intellectually down', you know? Because, being intelligent women, they want a mate to whom they can talk and debate and philosophize, etc. And intelligent men LIKE women like that, they like to talk to them (I have had misogynist friends of my ex say things to me like, 'I usually don't like talking to women, but I can talk to you' and 'You're like Queen Elizabeth, you have the heart of a woman and the mind of a man' - are these compliments?! Not REALLY.). But intelligent men don't marry those girls. Just like Mammy told Scarlett, who rejoined, 'Why does a girl have to act so silly to catch a husband?'.



Totally different motivations.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. And if evolution has merit

then these sexual issues really drive all our behaviors.

[StellaBlue]

25. Exactly.

Scary, isn't it?

Especially for women.

This is why I am increasingly fascinated with the idea of the decline of the Y chromosome. hmm...

I love many individual men, and wouldn't exterminate them for the sake of science or eugenics - but like most women throughout history, I do find myself wondering if the world would be less violent and self-destructive if there were only females. I don't know the answer, though, that's why I think it's interesting. You could also make the argument that, in the absence of men, women with these power-genes (and there are some, obviously!) would step into the role of oppression. Dunno. Thing is, these power-hungry women wouldn't have a physical advantage over the other (majority) of women who would prefer community, lack of hierarchy, more 'feminine' value systems.

[tatertop]

19. lot of truth to that post

[txaslftist]

11. If it is it skips generations in my family.

[StellaBlue]

15. Like hair and eye color, though...

Maybe you got the 'compassion' and the 'rigorous logic' gene from some distant relative, but it skipped your parents somehow? haha

Seriously, though!

How many times have we DUers scratched our heads, going, 'HOW can people be so stupid/apathetic/irrational/selfish'?!?!?!

And we know they have no comprehension of our motivation, either. They think WE are 'brainwashed' or have some hidden 'agenda'. But what evil agenda could you have for, say, wanting to protect endangered species?!

[txaslftist]

31. Now I gotta worry about my son...

[OnionPatch]

14. Interesting

I want to say, no, it's not genetic because my father and his parents were very pro-GOP. He was very racist and very materialistic. His sisters, on the other hand, are both extremely liberal. All are highly educated. (PhDs, etc.) Their kids (my cousins) are also highly educated and also extremely liberal. (Funny, many women in my family, intelligent and highly educated but have very few children. At least half have no children, the rest only one or two. Hmmmmm)

Certainly some traits are passed down, intelligence being one of them, that might point one to the left or the right to a certain degree. But I wouldn't say genetics was the main factor.

I was recently thinking about something similar. I was thinking about something I learned in biology. It was how animals that have evolved to gather into social groups are more successful than solitary animals. They learn to exchange information about food and safety. They protect each other and so on. When it comes to evolving, it seems to me that this Republican fad of individualism and "everyone for himself" is actually going backwards.

[StellaBlue]

16. Republican fad of individualism

They say that, but it only applies to their relations with NON-RWers.

They fiercely and irrationally and selfishly protect their own, in accordance with your group survivial theory. See Tom DeLay episode.

[BR_Parkway]

17. It's a choice to live their lifestyle and the Lard Gawd Almighty will

smite them dead. Sinful and wicked! They want to push this RW agenda down our throats, it's on the TV now, in our schools, our libraries - even our daycares! Won't someone speak out for the children?

How dare you try to blame genes and all that other scientific mumbo jumbo that's leading our precious children away from His plan! And don't go away muttering about why would Intelligence Design evil either.

You can do your part to save our children today. Call 1-900-I'LL-B-RICH today (a nominal fee of $49.95/min will appear on your next bill) and listen to my 30 minute exhortation of this abominable RW agenda and how they want to force your family to drink Kool-Ade. Call right now, intercessors are standing by.




</sarcasm> Can I still blame the drugs I did before the Patriot Act?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. And humor aside..

you remind me of the huge effect culture plays. I live in a deep southern town and we have a whole LOT of Baptists who were raised in the faith. Really, really raised in the faith.

Church on Sundays, Wednesdays, Bible study, Sunday School, choir, the whole nine yards. This is a rich culture for them and very affirming and insular. They live it 24/7. Some might call it brainwashed, but it is no different than the dessert tribesman who believes the Coke bottle is a gift from God. (Plot from a wonderful movie: The Gods Must be Crazy.)

Every single person these folks deal with in their lives believes as they believe. It isn't necessarily stupidity (not that there aren't stupid folks in that culture, too) but it is more a very thorough enculturation. And I have a hard time holding that against people. Although it can be extremely frustrating to deal with.

I went to college in Delaware and had some Amish friends. Now THERE is some enculturation. So I really grew to understand the power of culture.

[StellaBlue]

26. I am from East Texas.

Lived here until age 18 when, mercifully, I escaped (I love some things about this 'Southern' culture, but hate the small-town insularity).

I know ALL ABOUT the Baptists you're talking about. But I have a brain, so I realized very early it was all groupthink hogwash. I don't give them the excuse of 'culturization'. I tend to gravitate to Austin, where 'my people', as my dad calls them, are (he means the ones with purple hair and tattoos, sarcastically). So I think there is something to the idea that it is largely genetic. Or more than we like to think.

I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would have grown up, kept going to church, literally believing it, putting stupid, mass-produced, crappy Christian art on my walls, marrying someone with two first names, and having that smug, smiling aura of the submissive wife. I always KNEW I didn't belong in that. It just was. In fact, thinking about it now in light of this thread, it was much like what it must've been like for my friend who grew up in the same environment realizing she was gay. You just DON'T belong with those people. :shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. I'm interested in understanding

what you think led you to leave the culture you grew up in?

Obviously, most people don't. I wonder what drives the folks who do and what drives the folks who don't.

[StellaBlue]

38. Good question

But... I don't know! :)

Like I said, it was sort of like sexuality - it just IS. I just DON'T GET these people, never have. I ALWAYS knew that, though I love parts of the culture, I cannot embrace all of it (the irrational, anti-feminist parts, mainly). Then, like a gay person in that same environment, I realized when I was about 12-15, like a slow dawn, that I was very different and not acceptable to the culture. But unlike with sexuality, where there is no 'right' or 'wrong', I have always viewed these poor people as horribly ill-educated, sheep-minded, wilfully ignorant, and, therefore, judged them. But, hey, I am not a Christian, so I get to judge whoever I want! haha

I always knew I would leave as soon as I could. I never minded visiting; I wasn't ashamed of being from here - I like to talk about it and discuss cultural differences and idosyncracies with the people I have met from different backgrounds; I always felt like I belonged in Manhattan or San Francisco, though. haha

I think part of it has to do, to be honest, with the fact that I was sexually abused (don't worry, he's in jail!). This made me, as I was already intelligent and hyperactive, hypersensitive about being pushed around. By anybody. I refused to let someone else externally determine who I was, what was important, or what I should do with my life. I refused to let that person (or anyone else) control me or made me dysfunctional - I thought, hey, he's the crazy one, I'm not going to let this make me neurotic, too! And, mostly, it worked. haha. I'm only as neurotic as the next person.

So, with all the factors - me being naturally inquisitive and logical and sort of seeking the Right (as in Truth, not Christianity), plus becoming rather defensive and independent and iconoclastic because of my environment - I turned out the way I am.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. Perhaps the evolution of mankind has already peaked and we devolving.

Bush and his ilk, and their followers are indications of that.

The current entropy of the planet may be another indication of the impending demise of the human race. The planet itself, and most species will survive. Only mankind will perish. We will just be another one of those species that just didn't survive.

The idea that this planet cannot go on without the human race is another form of the hubris that has plagued us throughout our history.

Our existence was an interesting experiment...It seems to be ending in failure.

[StellaBlue]

27. Yep - that's what Kurt Vonnegut said on The Daily Show!

The planet is going to kill us off to save itself - and good riddance!

[lectrobyte]

30. An excellent quote

We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should.

-- Kurt Vonnegut

[blogslut]

28. Both My Parents were Moderate Republicans

They had four children.

Oldest brother has been a member of a fundy cult for over 30 years and I seriously doubt he votes at all because everyone is evil according to him.

The other brother (the wealthiest of us four) is a green party member and thinks Reagan was the devil and GWB his retarded spawn.

My sister is kind and generous yet votes Republican, although she's beginning to see the light.

I am a writer, a single mother, a pornographer and I usually vote a straight Democratic ticket.

:)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Pornographer as in writing or film?

Your moderate parents produced some very interesting kids, very diverse. Family dynamics are fascinating. If I had another life to live I'd really enjoy getting into that field. (family dynamics, not porn.) Although... well, maybe a third life could be porn.

[blogslut]

45. writer as in

I write lessons and articles for adult webmasters

[sepia_steel]

33. For what it's worth

I come from an entire lineage of group-thinkers. They made me want to be as far away as possible from the RW.

[DanCa]

35. I think it's nature as opposed to nuture

My family is primairly rwing. I was too untill I went to college and started educating myself- ironically in theology. That's when I realized how badly they - the anti choicers were misinterpeting the bible- I had to find a new church. Unfortunately by the time I did I came down with parkinsons but that's neither her nor there.

What am suggestion is that RWingers generally possess a narrow world view and as soon as it starts expanding they cant handle the truth. That's why the blame media bias and colleges as having a media liberal bias. The truth challenges there belief systsme.

[StellaBlue]

40. College

further confirmed my already-held beliefs and opened my eyes to a lot of other things... but it didn't 'make' me liberal at all. I chose the university I did because it was 'liberal' already. That's why I didn't go to A&M, which is a really big, all-white, Texas high school, basically.

I can give facts and righteous, rational arguments until I am blue in the face, but the RWers I know are still glass-eyed brickfaces.

[DanCa]

41. For me i went to a very private christian school

Out of respect for others on this board i am not saying the denomination. There are good people in every walks of life after all. The problem was I was only getting half the story. Or one side of the arguement if you will. My family went ape when i refused to attend that denominations college. Wouldnt pay for the tuition. I think am better for it.

[StellaBlue]

43. Good for you, DanCa!

[DanCa]

44. I just flashed on that old happy days votting episode

The whole Ike - Stevenson one where Richie goes against family traidition and Mr. C busts a gut. I think alot of people vote the way thier parents voted and keep it like that way or do what thier church tells them to do. I mean a lot of people I know say thier conservative and there alot more liberal in some ways than I am.

[enki23]

36. possibly. but you can be absolutley certain it's *heritable*

.

[rniel]

37. Interesting

Both my parents are on the liberal to moderate side. I'm strongly liberal. My brother is a freaking maniac nazi, right winger. He wasn't always that bad, but after getting back from the 1st war we had in Iraq he went batshit crazy. Kind of a Timothy McVeigh type of guy if you know what I mean.

[Jose Diablo]

39. A combination of genetic predisposition and environment I think

Some are born assholes, others lean that way but need a little enviromental nudge to achieve full assholeness.

[cassiepriam]

46. Yes, low IQ is inherited. EOM