Fitz had to lay the hammer down on Judy

[Ugnmoose]

All this crap about being released from her source is a bunch of noise. It has long been discussed that Fitz might just threaten Judy with criminal contempt if she didn't testify. Well with the GJ term ending in a month and Fitz running out of time, he pulled the trigger, I am quite sure. And you know he had the judge to back him up. Yes, poor Judy was facing two years in the hell hold pen and she broke down. She will give Fitz and the GJ what they want and need to wrap this up. I would speculate that in return for her testimony, Fitz has agreed either not to prosecute her or to let her off lightly. And you can bet that not longer after she testifies the indictments will fly. I am so damn curious to know exactly what it is that she knows or did that is so crucial to Fitz's case. I guess we will have to wait for the indictments to find out. Anyway, I think this is really good news because it should signal that this thing is truly coming to a head. It won't be long now.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. I only hope you're right

I think so too. They're trying to save their asses (and thus save Bush's ass and their party). Hopefully this is true.

[AuntiBush]

3. Hopeful with Fingers Crossed behind back.

Hard to make sense out of so much secrecy.

[Maat]

2. Do you think that the Evil Cabal has made an agreement with Libby

for Libby to take the fall?

Hmmm...

[Ugnmoose]

4. No, that would be too obvious

I think Fitz is smart enough and has enough evidence to go higher than Libby, although I am sure the White House is hoping that is where it will stop. My gut is it goes up to Cheney. Given that Libby was his top aide, it wouldn't be hard to make that leap. The bigger question is who else was in on the conspiracy and what other dirt did Fitz find when he started looking under the rug.

[napi21]

6. That's a possibility. Libby takes the fall, then gets a pardon.

I'm not sure though that Fitz will let everyone else off the hook. I think he has testimony from at least one person and he needed confirmation. We're all guessing now. Wait a little longer and we'll see. I'm thinking Fitz is not going to stop with only one!

[flyarm]

17. i say..cheney cheney cheney cheney cheney

l.franklin is singing...that will take care of libby...this is for the big kahoona..this is cheney..all the way...and ny news when story broke today said judith called cheney when she was getting released...

fitzgerald already had a judge agree to charge judith with criminal contempt if any indictments were coming down...so with any indictments judith would switch from civil contempt to criminal contempt...
and think about it ..who is all going down..delay and frist..two likely candidates for a vp replacement...well now they are taken out of the equasion...

this is bigger than libby..and i would bet the farm its cheney all the way!!

how did nixon go down..first with spiro agnew...then nixons boys fell on the sword...

well not to take a chance, delay goes down first..then frist...so they can not be named v.p............

hold onto your seats..this is going to be catasrophic!!
remember the last person to communicate by email to dr david kelley in britian was judith miller...before he "supposedly" committed suicide..within days of wilson blwoing the yellow cake bullshit cheney claimed over and over again!!

judith has some goods fitzgerald needs...and the dots will be connected...to take down cheney!!

thats what i believe and i am sticking to it!

fly

[napi21]

18. I hope you're right, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Cheney is way too connected to let that happen. It's no secret that almost everybody believes Cheney is the one running the country and Shrub is the face on TV. Way too many insiders support Cheney and they would never let some small fish like Miller take him out!

I really do hope you're right, but I gotta tell ya, I'll be shocked and awed if it really happens.

[dooner]

19. I hope you are right. n/t

[BamaBecky]

32. Makes good sense to me

So I'm wondering why GWB wouldn't be eligible for all this glory too?
Bama

[smoogatz]

5. PFitz wants confirmation and double confirmation.

Everything has to come from multiple witnesses--no important aspect of the case can rest on a single witness' testimony. Plus, he's a man who dislikes being trifled with. A good prosecutor will let potential witnesses know it's best not to cross him/her.

[Maat]

7. I hope you guys are right.

Hmmm .. going to be an interesting next couple of months.

[Ugnmoose]

I can tell you one thing about Fitz

In a past life I worked closely as an investigator with the U.S. Attorney's office and I pretty well know how the good prosecutors operate. This guy is a pro. He will leave no stone unturned. And he will have rock solid evidence for every indictment. The reason this case has taken so long is because Fitz wants this airtight. Also, I do believe that he may have also stumbled into other criminal violations beyond Plamegate, which may also be brought before the GJ for indictments.

[smoogatz]

10. I've been thinking the same thing.

Or it could be that Plamegate has yielded some unexpected, extremely high-level targets on the conspiracy end of things. If Bush gave prior approval to her outing (and it's exactly his style), or was involved in the cover-up (ditto), he could be indicted. But what I'm smelling here is Cheney. I think he's in this up to his neck.

[never cry wolf]

14. That's what I am thinking too

Bringing down a veep of the US, or higher, has to overwhelming. Think Woodward and Bernstein. This would be a sea change in the history no only of the US but of mankind, and there are nasty, devious and evil people that will fight it tooth and nail. Every damn T better be crossed and i dotted.

For those of you disposed to it, pray for Fitz!

[Bumblebee]

8. It's sort of the gist of the WP story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/29/AR2005092901974.html

[DeepModem Mom]

9. From the article:

"Miller's role had been one of the great mysteries in the leak probe. It is unclear why she emerged as a central figure in the probe despite never having written a story about the case."

[Ugnmoose]

11. Whatever she knows or did is big

You can bet every buck you have that is so. Fitz would never have gone to the length of having a judge hold her in contempt if it weren't. Out of pure speculation, I believe that she was a White House plant and was being used, knowingly, by them to shill stories around. Fitz must have information from other sources that claim Judy was in the direct know about who leaked the identity of Plame. He wants her to give it up, but by so doing it may further implicate her in the conspiracy. She ain't protecting sources. She's protecting bosses.

[Marie26]

22. Could Miller be the leak?

Here's a crazy thought: what if Novak's source was Judith Miller? That would explain a whole lot. Libby has said that did talk to her about Ambassador Wilson, but insists he never revealed his wife's identity & had allowed her to speak to the grand jury. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20... ) Miller said she wouldn't testify to protect her confidential source, but apparantly, that source gave a waiver of confidentiality over a year ago. So who or what is she protecting?

When she was reporting for two years on WMD in Iraq, she could have easily learned of Plame's identity (as an agent in arena of WMD). This would also explain the Bolton jail visit - as Undersecretary of Arms Control, he was also a big backer of the "Iraq has WMD" agenda & could have fed her the info. If she really did have an agenda, she could have disclosed the actual identity to Novak, leaving admin. officials to only add on pertinent information after the identity is revealed.

Looking at "the words": Novak said "Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this." That's true - he called <i>them</i> to confirm the info he'd already been given by Miller. So the identity's been "revealed" already & ad. officials can feel free to comment and expand upon it. Like you said, that info is now fair game. Rove coordinates to let media & officals know it's now legally safe to talk about Plame's role.

What if the source Miller is really protecting is herself? Maybe the flow was - Bolton - Miller - Novak - Rove (confirms & spreads). By referring the vital illegal information (CIA role) through a third party, the administration won't be directly implicated. By not actually publishing a story on this, Miller isn't directly implicated. By only repeating info he'd already heard, Novak isn't implicated either. It's a nice scheme, unless the vital link, Miller, is revealed. Maybe Miller is using "Libby" as a cover for the real sources she doesn't want to reveal - herself & Bolton.

Miller wrote many, many, Iraq/WMD scoops that turned out to be false. (http://slate.msn.com/id/2086110 /) Bolton was in charge of "Arms Control" & eager to spin intelligence about Iraq's WMD (to the point of punishng CIA employees who didn't comply). Bolton could use the NY Times & Miller to spread false lies about WMD danger and build public support for a war with Iraq. It's propaganda, really. And Miller was eager to publicize the "scoops" she received from Bolton about Iraq's WMD's - she eventually got a Pulitzer prize!

But if the grand jury asks about Bolton, she'll have to reveal her complicity in the propaganda machine for war & the false info from Bolton that she spread. As well as the leak of Plame's identity. So she uses a cover - she claims she can't testify because of Libby to protect her true source of info (Bolton) & prevent the grand jury from investigating her relationship w/Bolton. It's like shell game - distracting by focusing on Libby, not the real source she's potecting. So, now she's free, but that might not be a good thing. Fitzgerald promised to "limit the scope" of questioning & not ask about other sources. What if Miller actually gets up there & then testifies that Libby actually revealed nothing to her at all? By assuring her a limited scope of questioning, the grand jury can't go into her OTHER sources - or her true source of the information.

Thanks to anyone who actually reads this whole conspiracy theory. What do you think?

[DeepModem Mom]

33. I think some kind of involvement by Miller herself...

is entirely possible, Marie26. Her journalistic career, especially her involvement with newsmakers/sources, has been controversial, even among her colleagues at the NYT. Her willingness to involve herself in stories is, as you note, evidenced by her role in trumpeting the Iraq war, based on false information fed to her.

[Pirate Smile]

13. From the WP story - the last paragraphs:

"Fitzgerald has made it clear for more than a year that Miller was the main obstacle to completing the case, and that he was prepared to exert pressure on her to testify. People involved in the case said they began to hear earlier this week that Miller was looking for a way out of jail.

In recent weeks, people close to Miller said her attorneys grew anxious that Fitzgerald would extend her time behind bars. Fitzgerald has the authority to extend the grand jury investigating possible leaks for another 18 months, and he could ask the judge to hold Miller in jail for another six months, lawyers familiar with the case said.

Miller's role had been one of the great mysteries in the leak probe. It is unclear why she emerged as a central figure in the probe despite never having written a story about the case."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/29/AR2005092901974_2.html

[are_we_united_yet]

12. Hmmm...

Good theory. But what were those visits from Bolton all about?

Worries me a bit.

[lala_rawraw]

15. yep

[texpatriot2004]

16. Nice to see you Ugnmoose and I am with you about the noise.

We shall see what tune Judy sings...

[Guaranteed]

20. And that would be a federal charge of criminal contempt, right?

So she'd be serving that WHOOOOOOLE two years.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Sigh. It is at times like these when I realize I need to go to bed

Lay the Hammer down on Judy. (Get offa me! I can't BREATHE!!)

[ngGale]

23. Sure nuff...

n/t

[Nothing Without Hope]

24. Here are my two reasons why I think WE WILL NOT GET THE TRUTH FROM MILLER:

1. There is no way to ensure that Miller's testimony does not include perjury about what was actually said in those Plame-related conversation(s). Her Iraq War work show she's perfectly comfortable with murderous lies, and the paper editors must be too because she still has her job after her criminal role in passing the Administration's lies in the leadup to the war. Why would she tell the truth if she can get away with lying about this? And how would we ever know?

2. According to the deal made with Fitzgerald's team and Miller's lawyers, she cannot be asked about any of her other sources. So if it was BOLTON who was the traitor who told her, or indeed if it was anyone but Libby, she DOES NOT HAVE TO TELL.

I'm betting it was Bolton who talked to her, and by the deal that has been made, she will not have to divulge this. This is JUSTICE???

The NYT article and the disgusting statements by Miller and NYT editorial brass are linked to and excerpted in this post (within another thread on the Miller release):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1815988#1816785

The same post (near the end) has a link to a thread on Conyers' blogging about this.

[Marie26]

25. Don't trust her either

I agree & I'm starting to think Judith Miller was complicit in this whole thing. From Wikipedia : "Novak is reported to have told Rove the name of the agent and her role in Wilson's mission to Africa. Rove is reported to have told Novak something to the effect of, 'I heard that, too.' or 'Oh, so you already know about it.'. Rove reportedly told the grand jury that at this time he had already heard about Wilson's wife working for the CIA from another journalist, but is unable to remember who that was." What if that journalist was Miller, who in turn got the info from Bolton? That would explain why Fitzgerald is going to such lengths to get her to testify - she'd be not just a tangential witness but the heart of the whole scandal.

[Nothing Without Hope]

27. Interesting thought - Rove hearing from Miller, who got it from Bolton

would make a great deal of sense.

See this thread I've started on why we won't hear the truth from Miller:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4932994

[Marie26]

28. OK

Pretty interesting. If it's OK, I'll repost under that thread. I'm not sure if it's extreme to think that Miller is involved & I'll feel bad if she is just protecting her source, but something feels fishy about this.

[Nothing Without Hope]

30. Oh yes, very very fishy. The scenario you suggest is quite plausible. n/t

[Orangepeel]

35. you think that Fitz's deal was that she DIDN'T have to reveal her source?

all she had to do was confirm whether or not it was Libby? That would be a pretty dumb deal on his part and I sure hope you are wrong.

Of course, she could lie about who her source was, but she's got to say it's somebody. Otherwise, that's a hell of a deal she negotiated.

[barbaraann]

26. Maybe she saw the Martha Stewart in prison tv movie a few days ago.

One thing that was scary was that they did a body cavity search on Martha. :o

[Nothing Without Hope]

29. RELATED THREAD on why Miller won’t give truth and Bolton is likely leaker

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4932994
thread title: Here are two reasons why I believe JUDITH MILLER WILL NOT GIVE THE TRUTH:

Please come join this discussion. There is documentation there to support the following arguments and scenarios:

First, the two reasons why Fitzgerald will NOT get the truth from Judith Miller:

1. She can lie and no one will be able to tell Her previous career in helping to foment the Iraq war based on lies shows she’s quite willing to do ANYTHING promote her career.

2. The specific agreement between the legal teams of Miller and Fitzgerald allows Fitzgerald to only see an EDITED COPY of Miller’s notes on the talk with Libby and – very important – prevents him from asking about WHO ELSE might have told her about Plame.

Second, I strongly suspect it was not Libby but BOLTON who was the leaker who spoke to Miller. Not only did he visit her in jail, but he was at the epicenter of the neocon group who blocked REAL intelligence on Iraq WMDs and substituted LIES to push the Iraq War. Seymour Hersh made that clear in his important “Stovepipe” article back in 2003. Remember that the most important aftermath of the Plame leak wasn’t the outing of Plame herself but the DESTRUCTION OF THE ENTIRE LONG-ESTABLISHED GROUP OF EXPERTS GATHERING REAL INTELLIGENCE ON MIDEAST WMDs. Bolton had a powerful motivation to do exactly that. He is insanely vengeful and can surely be imagined demanding that Wilson be punished, but more important, he would want the destruction of the conduits of information that contradicted the Administration’s lies on Iraqi WMDs.

Finally, Marie26 has come up with a plausible scenario that needs to be considered:

BOLTON told MILLER, and then MILLER told ROVE.

Remember how Rove claimed that he heard about the Plame leak from a reporter but couldn’t remember which reporter it was? (But it was not Novak.) What if the reporter in question was MILLER, who had been told by BOLTON? This would fit everything we know and would explain Bolton’s visit to Miller in jail. Rove would “forget” this because he would be protecting Bolton. And Bolton (possibly through his aides) would be a likely source for Miller’s printed lies in the leadup to the Iraq War.

Please come read more about the bases for these ideas and join the discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4932994
thread title: Here are two reasons why I believe JUDITH MILLER WILL NOT GIVE THE TRUTH:

[Rockholm]

34. I agree. Bolton is the leaker.

[Ugnmoose]

37. Judy will give Fitz exactly what he wants and needs

Why? Because he has all the leverage. She was under real threat of criminal contempt and knew full well that he had every intent to use it. Old Judy Blue Eyes was not gonna rot in jail for another two years. Is it possible that Judy knows something more than does Fitz? Yes. But that may not be all that relevant. Remember Fitz has endless number of witnesses, some of whom have already allegedly implicated Bush and Cheney. Judy has some direct knowledge that no other witness has yet been able to convey, and that knowledge must be vital to make Fitz's case airtight. This has to be, or the judge would never gone along with putting her in jail. So my take is that Judy will tell the GJ what Fitz wants her to tell them, and save her ass from more jail time, and possibly even a criminal consipiracy indictment. As I said earlier, I know something about the power of federal prosecutors and Fitz has it. He is in control and has the power of the law and courts to back him. There is no politics involved here and no amount of political pressure will work. This is no whitewash Republican controlled hearing. This is the real thing. The way the justice system is designed to operate. Anyway, that's my take.

[Swamp Rat]

31. One can only hope for the best...

[AlinPA]

36. Lets hope. But they (Rove-Bush**) must have it wrapped up tight

enough not to worry. They appointed Fitzgerald. He is a republican. They would not take chances with appointing a prosecutor in this case - it is too important for them so would see to it up front that it take a long time and that it comes out their way. These dirty bastards have a lock on the justice department and the courts now.

[KFC]

38. Fitz is not a republican.

Probably one of the least political federal prosecutors ever. He simply does not give a shit about politics, he just wants convictions.

[AlinPA]

39. Yes he is; see att'd link, Conason's article, paragraph 11.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=19410

[mzteris]

40. so the whole "scooter" freed me

to testify was a smokescreen to cover her "I won't talk" reputation?

hmmmmmmmm.........