Is the abortion debate about controlling sexuality?

[benburch]

Poll question: Is the abortion debate about controlling sexuality?

[Ravenseye]

1. bah I don't like either option

It's not about 'life' and it's not about 'controlling sexuality'

It's about one group of people foisting their so called 'morals' on others, regardless of how hypocritical, dangerous, and illogical they are. It's about blind belief in an irrational thought. They aren't doing it to control anyone's sexuality, and they aren't doing it because they have an overarching love for life which trumps all other causes. They're just ignorant, hypocritical, illogical, and dnagerous.

[MissMarple]

3. I think they have severe control issues.

The politicians want to control the voters, and the anti abortion people want to control women and validate their personal beliefs with egregious laws.

[Beaver Tail]

6. I Agree

It is a matter of control. YOU got it right on the Mark IMO

[yurbud]

2. how about red herring to bait the stupid and...

a very secondary concern about keeping up the supply of cheap labor.

[electron_blue]

36. yup

[BringEmOn]

4. They don't care if black or brown babies are aborted

They want to stop aborting white babies. They are very afraid of becoming a minority.

[raccoon]

11. You sure got that right.

Anybody ever heard them worrying about the Chinese girl babies who are aborted because of the one-child policy?

[Inland]

5. There's much antisex involved, as proven by the "rape or incest" exception

put forward by some. As I said in a different and now locked thread where the OP said he couldn't think of a circumstances where abortion would be morally acceptable except in cases of rape or incest I said:

"What's interesting is that if I wanted to pick the non-arguable circumstance , the one that would give anyone pause, I would have picked yours, where continuing is futile at best and causes suffering.

"But for most anti abortion folk, it's about the sex, and that those who play must pay. So if you got knocked up in rape or incest, it isn't like you enjoyed it so you get a pass at an abortion even if it's a form of murder for other folk who get pregnant enjoying sex. Go figure."

[raccoon]

15. Exactly, it's that they want women to be punished for

having CONSENSUAL sex. If she was raped or an incest victim, she didn't choose to have sex and then enjoy it.

[benburch]

33. But when you examine their attitudes to women who get raped...

you hear stuff like;

"Dressing that way she was asking for it."

"It only became rape when he didn't want to have a second date."

"She said 'No' but she meant 'Yes'."

[Hello_Kitty]

41. You got it!

If it were truly about life, then the fetus that resulted from rape or incest would be just as worthy of protection in their eyes. Of course, there are those hard-liners who do believe that abortion should be prohibited in all circumstances, including to protect the life of the mother. But with them, there's no consideration for women as anything but walking wombs. They'll say stupid things like women who are raped can't get pregnant because the woman has to enjoy sex in order for conception to occur (a US lawmaker actually said something like that!). Or they are against abortion but the death penalty is a-ok, as are wars for oil. There are very few people who are pro-life, in the sense that the life ethic is consistently seen in all their views.

[raccoon]

75. Gosh, can you believe in a culture where ads, TV shows,

movies, etc., constantly talk about sex, sex, sex, there is still such ignorance?

And from a lawmaker!!!! what an ignoramus.

[bloom]

56. I think "punishment" is key

The same "pro-life" people are often pro-death-penalty.

It's not about life. It's about punishment.

[raccoon]

76. Absolutely. nt

[mestup]

7. It's about several things.

Depending on the person/group against it.

For some it's about racism, for others about controlling sexuality, and for churches, politicians, and pro-life nonprofit agencies it's definitely about CASH. Millions of dollars generated as campaign contributions.

[soleft]

8. I think a lot of right wing people suffer from having bad parents

Not bad people as parents as much as people who don't know how to parent. Suffering from a lack of compassion and living in a constant of fear, they live in states of deep denial and force their children to repress their emotions and their true selves.

Feeling abandoned, children of right wing parents, like their parents before them, often become religious fundamentalists and form a fantasy bond with a better parent - Jesus/God.

Along with fundamentalist beliefs, I think they form an over identification with what they view as another abandoned child, the aborted embryo or fetus.

In rescuing the fetus they're actually attempting to rescue themselves from their own bad parents.

[benburch]

10. Ooooh! I never thought of it that way before.

THAT takes some pondering.

[MountainLaurel]

17. Ever read Alice Miller?

She's a German psychologist who has written several books that touch on the impact of German child-rearing practices in the 19th century on the ability of so many Germans to be complicit to a genocide.

[benburch]

19. I'll HAVE to look that up! nt

[mestup]

21. Definitely read Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" n/t

[soleft]

20. I've actually read a lot of Alice Miller

My views are definitely influenced by her work.

[LeftyMom]

53. I think sometimes they feel unwanted

and fight legal abortion out of a fear thier parents would have chose that option was it available to them.

[devilgrrl]

9. That's part of it but not all.

Anti-choicers want to control peoples lives - plain and simple.

[ComerPerro]

12. Damn. Wow.

[Double T]

13. Chastity Belts For All.......

THEY will tell you with who,with what,when,where and how you will have sex

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. If you listen to women who are anti-choice, you find that

deep down, they hold Victorian sexual attitudes, believing that sex is disgusting and downright evil outside of marriage. Therefore, pregnancy is just "punishment" for that "transgression."

[benburch]

18. And if you look at the rate at which their men cheat on them...

you'd realize that they still think sex is disgusting WITHIN MARRIAGE!

[Occulus]

23. I've heard fundies say that.

Sex outside marriage is a sin and sex inside marriage is a necessary sin.

[benburch]

25. That is disgusting on SO many levels.

Ewwww.

[hyphenate]

16. I think it is a control issue

when men get involved. And I don't mean that as a derogative to all men, only those who choose to get heavily involved in the anti-choice issue. The key word there is "anti-choice" which is the real synonym, regardless of how much they try to paint themselves as "pro-life."

Men who want to take away the choices a woman has upon getting pregnant should stay the hell out of the issue since they can't give birth, and it's a choice of the "body" who is pregnant, which is the woman.

Women have had so much shit thrown at them for centuries and have always been second class citizens to these kind of men. They will never allow women to be "important" in any sense, and those that do get to be "important" are either treated like or act like men in order to stay there. Think about it--the perception of a strong woman ruler is one who exudes arrogance, bitchiness or just plain brutality. At least here in the U.S.A. that is the way it's been. In the rest of the world, there are many women who have been able to remain both feminine and strong without giving that up. Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Princess Diana--these are good examples of strong female leaders.

For these kind of men, it's all about control, strength and brutality. Each and every one of them has some extent of misogynism inside of him, whether it will ever come out or not consciously.

[berni_mccoy]

22. I believe it's about seperation of Church and State

The morality argument of abortion is based on religious faith.. that you are obstructing God's will and comitting murder.

It is a faith-based decision that the unborn is an independent entity.

And to legislate abortion is to legislate the faith of religion.

I don't buy the inverse argument that killing is illegal is based in Christianity. We know killing is wrong, instinctively and religions have picked up on that instinct to create a set of morals.

But there are many faith-based wrongs that come out of making abortion illegal... so many so that it becomes a decision of faith alone.

We must resist any attempt to blur the lines between church and state. Some day Christianity may be the minority here, and I wonder what the RW Chrisitians would think if the Pledge changed to Under Allah instead of Under God...

[benburch]

24. The day when Christianity is a minority is almost here, in fact.

The trends say about 20 years according to an article I read a couple of years back.

And if you count actual churchgoers, I venture to say that it is here already. There are many people who claim Christianity who are not churchgoers.

[StatsBabe]

26. I've always thought that it's about rich white people

who delayed childbearing until they were well established in careers and such, not being able to conceive. Fewer blonde, blue-eyed babies to adopt because of abortion and loss of the shame of illegitimacy. I truly do not think the righties care about any-shade-of-brown children.

[benburch]

28. You mean, they wouldn't adopt a non-Aryan baby?

:sarcasm: I'm Shocked! Shocked I Tell You! :sarcasm:

[newyawker99]

32. Hi StatsBabe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[StatsBabe]

40. Thanks! I've been lurking for over a year!

[benburch]

46. Well, I'm happy to have drawn you out, then!

Let's hear more from you! :hi:

[LoZoccolo]

27. Turning something into a class one disagreement never works.

Class one disagreement being, where one side cannot explain the other's position to the other's satisfaction.

[benburch]

29. Actually, quite useful.

If you want to motivate "troops" to fight.

Which I do.

[LoZoccolo]

30. So it's brainwashing of your own side?

:wow:

A good number of the world's biggest conflicts are class one disagreements. I have no illusion I'll stop something that big by pointing them out on an Internet message board, I just figure that a certain very few out there might be enlightened by knowing this codification of the concept.

[benburch]

31. No... It is making the criminality of the other side obvious.

I want US to understand them, but I see no utility in;

- Being able to explain to THEIR satisfaction their position. Their position is not even logically consistent, so I can see zero utility there.

- Trying to get them to articulate our position to our satisfaction, because that is clearly never going to occur.

Wilson's law states; "Communication is only possible between equals." and therefore, we will never manage to communicate with them as they do not consider and will never consider us to be their equals.

[LoZoccolo]

34. What you've just told me...

...is the kind of thing repeated as a justification for pretty much every class one, the ones we cause, and the ones caused against us.

Like I said, I don't expect them to stop in my lifetime. They were there when I was born, and they'll be there when I die.

[benburch]

35. Well, then...

Tell me how we, unilaterally, could solve this one?

[LoZoccolo]

37. I never offered to.

But neither did you.

[benburch]

48. Well, then...

If you cannot provide an alternative, what is the point in criticism?

[LoZoccolo]

54. You don't need an alternative...

...to know something won't work (and in the abstract is the cause of a great amount of suffering and misery in the world).

[benburch]

60. Then you capitulate.

Unacceptable.

[LoZoccolo]

61. On what point do I capitulate?

Don't waste my time or that of others.

You capitulated that you were turning this into a class one disagreement in message #29.

[benburch]

64. You give them what they want in re. Abortion.

If you fail to oppose they get what they want. That is how this country works.

[LoZoccolo]

65. No I don't.

If you fail to walk up to a line of anti-abortion protesters and spray them with submachine-gun fire, do you give them what they want by using another tack? Of course not.

[benburch]

67. What a good idea!

I'll have to try that some time! :sarcasm:

[BeTheChange]

70. Try what? Killing people?

What is a good idea?

[LoZoccolo]

71. In his defense, he is not advocating trying anything.

The sarcasm graphic would indicate that you should not take what he said seriously.

[BeTheChange]

73. I guess graphics are loading for me right now..

as I dont see one... thanks for the clarification tho. I was a bit alarmed.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. i dont think its so black and white

i do believe some prolifers honestly believe abortion is murder (and i can see why because i hear how religious leaders go on and on about it)


but i think most educated wealthy men (esp those in government)who are against abortion are so cos they want to control women...

[Hello_Kitty]

42. I agree that they THINK they are prolife b/c abortion is murder

But when you get into a dialogue about abortion with the fundie-fied it will usually start out being about the life of the unborn baby and then will quickly devolve into a discussion of the behavior of the woman. Every time. Trust me, there is a huge dose of woman-hating (subtle and not-so-subtle) that is injected into the rhetoric they get from their religious leaders.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. yes but i have heard pro life women talk about this too

and they strongly feel that abortion is murdering a baby

[Hello_Kitty]

45. Oh certainly. I don't doubt the sincerity of their views.

When I talk about abortion with people like that I try to keep the conversation focused on real solutions, such as making health care and support available for women so they'd be less likely to opt for abortion. I also talk about contraception, and that's when it can get problematic. A lot of these folks don't like birth control because they've heard the nonsense about how the pill causes abortions or they believe it leads to "promiscuity". Which of course, leads to the judgments of women's behavior.

So I agree that it IS about life for them to a large extent, but the other elements are ALWAYS present.

[Swamp Rat]

39. Yes, among other things.

Anti-choice shit heads don't give a fuck about human life but their own, sorry ass. That's why they post bullshit on political boards instead of enlisting in the military and serving in Iraq. No, the chicken shit, ball-less cowards would rather come here and post strawman arguments rather than BE A MAN themselves.

Know what I mean jellybean?

[indigo32]

44. It's all about punishing the woman

for having sex as far as I'm concerned. End of Story.

[Ikonoklast]

47. So many reasons

Forcing women to have children as "punishment" for being sexually active outside of marriage.
Sexually repressed fundies that believe sex is dirty and disgusting ALL the time and only do it to reproduce, so no one else should enjoy it either.
Fear of white people becoming a minority in this country. (Too late for that, it's happening, fundies) Re: underlying racism.
Hatred of all those that would ignore their "god" and should be punished for their "sins" by being forced to have children.
Control of women by men that are weak and want the government to do it for them.
Need by the economic machine of masses of the uneducated lower class for cheap labor, soldiers to fight their wars. (children of single mothers; larger, poorer families)
What I want to know is, whatever happened to the Republican support for Planned Parenthood? I remember when in the late 60's, early 70's that this was a pet cause of them to keep white folks from being overrun by brown people. It seemed that all the Repub wives had fund raisers for this all the time back then.

[kick-ass-bob]

49. Controlling sexuality? How about just "Controlling Women?"

that is more fitting.

[slackmaster]

50. In many cases it is about controlling WOMEN'S sexuality

But there are some sincere pro-lifers who also oppose war and violence in general.

Pro-lifers are not all hypocrites.

[tx_dem41]

51. Wow....talk about a push poll! No middle ground provided for the

..obvious choice. :eyes:

[benburch]

55. Then feel free to start your own poll. nt

[LoZoccolo]

58. No need for him to, because I just did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4936790&mesg_id=4936790

[sable302]

52. Not about controlling sex

as much as controlling Christian voters

[benburch]

62. You may have a point there...

But what motivates those Christian voters? Controlling sex.

[Beacho]

57. Yes, because they want to go after Griswold too

They want to do away with contraception as well

[Balbus]

59. My vote is....

3. This is an asinine poll.

thank you.

[seabeyond]

63. i will tell you why. rape incest abortion allowed

i often have this conversation especially with males. they say if raped then abortion ok. no i say. murder is murder. if you see it is murder then you cannot ok it for rape. screw the victim, the woman, she has to suck it up and have baby if raped. no they say. she didnt ask for the sex

then, you just took it to moral judgement. the punishment of no abortion is because the woman ok'ed the sex ergo they have to pay price for immorality. but because she didnt ask for it in rape she is allowed to murder, your excuse for anti choice. that is a moral decision, a punishment on morality

[BeTheChange]

66. Horribly baiting choices....

Im not a supporter of abortion. I wont ever try to stop someone from having one or denigrate them for doing so, but it would never be an option I suggested to anyone. I would never accompany a friend to an abortion clinic.

For me, it isnt about controlling sexuality. It's about respecting life. I do believe that life begins at conception. I do believe that we have choices. I do believe that outside of rape, pregnancies can be prevented thru dilligent use of birthcontrol methods. Infact, I believe in concurrently using multiple birthcontrol methods. Symptothermal Rhythm along with cervical mucus monitoring paired with a condom, diaphram, cervical cap, gels, foams etc is a very cost effective and empowering method of reliable birthcontrol. Yes, I said empowering.. because this is all about having control of our bodies, right? How sad it is that so few women even know their bodies. Does it take effort, yes.. a couple of minutes every day. I think it's worth it to avoid having to make a decision regarding an unwanted pregnancy.

I dont care if you have sex before you are married. I think that it is most satisfying in a committed and loving relationship, but it's not up to me to define a committed and loving relationship. That is a personal experience and decision. You can be in a committed and loving relationship without a piece of paper just as well as with one. If you pursue another form of sexual satisfaction, it isnt up to me to judge that either.. My only hope is that it is one that makes you happy, truly happy and fullfilled.

And yeah, Ill go ahead and say it. If you wont, for whatever reason, invest in yourself and your future enough to make sure your partner and yourself are safe from disease and unwanted pregnancy...then masturbation/mutual masterbation can be very fun and intimately rewarding.

[LoZoccolo]

68. Non-push poll version here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4936790&mesg_id=4936790

As you can see, the number of "no" votes has already exceeded that in the original poll, and the point spread is different than in the push-poll version.

[MamaBear]

69. Another Factor

Another factor for the very religious in their desire to end the practice of abortion is to curry favor with their punishing God.

There are some denominations within Christianity that only see God (and therefore Christ, who they equate (and in some cases, conflate) with God) as a punisher, a bringer of justice. And they have been taught since infancy that this all powerful God will weigh each soul according to his own whims, which may be guessed from reading scripture.

In their eyes, to save "babies" is to save these souls for later salvation which, in their hearts, is what they desperately want to believe this God wants. Otherwise, it's the lake of fire for everybody.

They really, really want some points in the "good" column because they know, as all of us do, that we are imperfect beings.

The difference is, in a universe with no punishing God, your flaws are something you work with, try to overcome perhaps, try to learn from. Your quick temper, or your failing to be compassionate, perhaps your greed, whatever. We all have them.

When I finally got it through my head (if not entirely through my soul yet) that there was no eternal daddy waiting for me with a huge strap and a chip on his shoulder, my failings of character were not so frightening. And when my failings started to scare me less, then I could start to be able to see other people's shortcomings as, well, shortcomings. Maybe more like expressions of their own pain and doubt, and not the extrusion into my universe of some great evil that would not only damn them to Lucifer's kingdom, but drag me down there as well.

Hell is real for these folks, and some of them privately believe that if they don't put an end to the sin of others, they will be tainted with it themselves.

I try to see them with compassion, but I cannot trust them.

[mandyky]

72. Abortion won't be the end of it

They want to end divorce and punish single mothers.

[benburch]

74. And Birth control. ALL Birth control.

Everything from condoms to pills to wives being legally able to say "No".

[mandyky]

77. EXACTLY!

and all the while theyclaim tobe pro life they are women being back tosecond class citizens.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

78. It's about the Republicans' sadistic nature

I think prohibiting abortion is about right wingers making their right wing dreams come true. What are the hopes and dreams of right wingers? Here you go:

1) To have a patriarchal society where women (except for mega-rich women) are treated as prostitutes and slaves;
2) To be allowed to physically, mentally and emotionally punish publicly and privately, other human beings;
3) To have a militaristic, fascist, Nazi-like society;
4) To have a state religion that consists of a pseudo-christianity Republican version (which omits all statements by Jesus regarding being kind, loving others, and doing good for the most helpless of our society).

[rasputin1952]

79. This entire thing is about pushing a 'morality' on others...something

the "Right to Lifers" can't figure out. After all, if they were'nt such hypocrites they'd figure it oput themselves. One should always take a position back to it's source/base. It takes sex, (in most cases), to procreate. It is the sexual act they are against...unless they are involved in the act themselves, then it is OK....:grr:

On edit: I know this is the simplistic argument that I have out forth, but my coffe intake has been low this AM, and I am in need of a caffeince fix before I feel like getting into the psychological aspect of this matter....:)

[stepnw1f]

80. Every Person Voting "NO" is Fooling Themselves

That's right; all 5 of ya.

[newportdadde]

81. Option 3: Its about controlling votes.

Subjects like abortion help divide all of us who are the have nots which keeps us from coming together to create change.