I thought I'd be attacked for not standing during the national anthem.

[Cyrano]

Over the Labor Day weekend, I was invited to a private club to which some friends of mine belonged. I was stretched out on a lounge and it was around noontime when someone announced over the loudspeaker for everyone to stand for the national anthem.

I have no idea what triggered it, but I was suddenly pissed, outraged and rebellious. Was I at a ball game? A political convention? Back in the army? Why was someone telling me I had to stand for the national anthem at some damn swimming pool?

" ... land of the free. Home of the brave."? The bullshit of those lines in George Bush's America were echoing in my head and I made the decision to not stand. Everyone else stood and I guess I anticipated the looks of anger and hatred directed at me.

Soon afterwards, I told my friends I didn't want to make them any more uncomfortable than they already were, and that I was leaving.

I've spent a month thinking about this. Was I being true to my beliefs? Should I have stood so as not to be discourteous to my friends? At what point should any of us draw the line of what we're expected to do, and what we think is right? And I've concluded that I have no regrets.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. What was the purpose of playing the anthem?

I don't think we have to jump to our feet whenever we hear it! But if it is being played as an opening to an event, then you do it. But at a pool? Lounge chair? Probably some idiot wanted to check out the babes at attention.

[tatertop]

6. I no longer stand for the national anthem

I don't even take my cap off

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. I do stand because it makes me feel good

(but not at a pool in a bathing suit, by God)

I stand for the ideals, not the reality. Plus I am a total emotional mush that way. Love ceremony, symbols, etc.

But I completely understand your feelings.

[Hobarticus]

20. Me too, I'll stand for the principles...

But dang, to stand up as ordered at some function just because someone decides to play the anthem? No thanks.

[Pirate Smile]

22. Right. The ideals are what gets me teary and still has my respect.

That is what people don't get when they yell about burning the flag (who even ever does that :eyes: ) and they miss that its greatness is what it symbolizes, not its cloth.

[Spike from MN]

47. I always thought it was stupid to make everyone

stand for the anthem. I thought it was stupid to make us stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance even when I was in grade school. Even then, I thought it was a mindless act that smacked of control. I guess the present-day word would be that it made me feel like a sheeple. I can think for myself, thank you very much and I don't feel like reciting the Pledge or standing for the national anthem. If others want to do it, of course, that's their perogative and I won't tell them they SHOULDN'T do it, in the same way I expect them to respect my freedom of choice and not tell me that I HAVE to do it.

And I'll add it to save someone else the trouble of posting:

Spike, why do you hate 'Murika? ;)

[annabanana]

2. oh hell no... what are you.. a yo-yo?

Some of these people stand up AT HOME all alone, before the football game..
Curiosity sake.. what was the response of those around you?

[Cyrano]

15. I have no doubt there were people who would have killed me if they

thought they could have gotten away with it.

Never underestimate the stupidity of a (so-called) patriot.

[LisaM]

3. I'm a little lost - why did they play it at all?

what kind of a club was it? Did people say something to you after you refused to stand? How strange it all sounds.

Maybe you should have stood, and then half an hour later, leapt to your feet and yelled out "EVERYONE STAND FOR THE PLEDGE!" and made them all recite the pledge of allegiance.

[rkc3]

4. You are free to do what you want, as long as it is

acceptable to the repubs around you.

[Straight Shooter]

5. When I was younger, I always stood for the Anthem.

I remember people in school snickering at me because I stood for the Anthem at ball games. For me, it was a sign of respect, as the Anthem to me was symbolic of what America represents.

No way in hell would I ever stand for the Anthem now. All those people who once didn't bother to stand up, now they're standing up? F*ck them.

Good for you. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

[William769]

7. The right does not own patriotism

I myself would have stood. But thats just me.

[seemunkee]

8. They asked people to stand for singing "America the Beautiful"

at a Nationals baseball game

[mandyky]

50. I wish that WAS our National Anthem

I'd rather our national anthem not promote war.

[jsamuel]

9. Apparently not standing ment somthing to you and you are free to expressit

[ComerPerro]

10. People will jump on you for not standing during "God Bless America"

and "America the Beautiful"

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

11. Stand for "land of the free and ...

...home of the brave?" Not me, not anymore. This is not land of the free. The people of an imperialist nation are anything but free.
As for "home of the brave," you clearly demonstrated that we still have some brave citizens left. Sadly, there just don't seem to be enough.

[Cyrano]

18. Thanks for the compliment, but it wasn't bravery. I was just pissed.

I couldn't have cared less what anyone thought. At that moment, all I knew was that I wasn't going to take any more pseudo-patriotism shit from anyone.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

21. You may have...

...been pissed, but you also knew you would be a minority of one making a statement that would evoke strong, emotional opposition.
Rather than cave to the fear of being a lone dissenter, you stood (or perhaps remained seated) for what you believed. That's bravery.

[Benhurst]

12. I live in a very Red part of the country.

I was at a high school football game last weekend. When the Star Spangled Banner was played, I stood, but with my hands clasped behind my back.

I looked around and noticed that very few had their hands over their hearts. Most had their hands clasped behind or in front, dangling at their sides or in their pockets.

Is this just bad manners or were others expressing their disgust with what is going on?

I don't know.

:patriot:

[Dr.Phool]

14. For years, I didn't stand for the anthem at Browns games.

And I've been thinking lately about not standing for the pledge at our DEC meetings. Saying something to the efect of, "When you take god out of it, I'll stand for it." But, I have to work closely with a lot of these people.

[tx_dem41]

16. At the very least I would have stood up.

Try to remember the fact that the Anthem isn't in any way paying respect or showing reverance to the current (or any) Administration. Its paying respect to the people of the nation past and present, many of whom have sacrificed and are sacrificing (and I'm not just talking militarily) for your betterment.

[Guaranteed]

24. I think I probably would have stood, meanwhile giving puzzled looks

to everyone around me, and when it was over, immediately asked, "Why the FUCK did they just play the national anthem???"

[tx_dem41]

27. LOL...that's about what I would have done too...

except I might have whispered it. :)

[Ravenseye]

17. Yikes Talk About Scary

Brings to mind images of Nazi Germany. Just playing the anthem out of nowhere and everyone standing and singing for no reason.

Or something out of 1984.

Scary.

[Ron Green]

19. When I was playing in bands in NCO and officers' clubs, we would use the

National Anthem to break up a fight (mostly in the NCO environment) by launching into it and causing everyone to stand and face the flag.

[geomon666]

23. I would've jumped in the pool...

and peed in it. Gobs Bless America!!!!!!!!!!111114

[Guaranteed]

25. LOL a cannonball, right at the end. "GERONIMO!!" nt

[seabeyond]

26. a good friend brought her new boyfriend to my house.

a druid, conservative, military man. she is well aware what i think is happening in this world and my disgust for the sheep. we both had kids in a private christian school. i took mine out because i told her, they werent walking the path of christ. they were feeding hate. i talk often to her about politics

they stop by at my house and he is talking politics, in my house. she was well aware his politics and how it would hit me upside the head. i had been minding my own business. the more questions i ask to understand where he is coming from, the more i see, he is the truly dangerous white male, educated, military (so he says) limbaugh talking, flat out liar that sounds like he is actually saying something. he told me he personally knows bush and he is a good christian that deeply holds his faith. he is a blow hard

at one point i told all in the room, conversation making me sick. this was sick. this is what makes me so sad for this nation

this good friend hasnt talked to me for three weeks. she called daily in the past.

i ask, is it worth losing a friendship over. you know what? i wont have that man in my world. i wont honor the game he plays. and while she is with this man, and embacing his lies, she can stay in her space too. i wont be quiet and i wont pretend

[LisaM]

28. He sounds very controlling

He probably told her not to call you. When she dumps the loser and calls again, take her back.

[seabeyond]

29. women today should feel lucky today compared to 3 decades

ago. that was in the middle of the talk, when i was getting where he was coming from

told him, my father in law once said, i should feel lucky living in this country compared to others.

bullshit. fuck that crap. like that maeks the injustices today ok. not going to keep mouth shut cause we are better off than women getting vaginal mutilation. this is something stupid shit white males say to put women in their place

yes

he is one of those men. the type she has cried to me about for years, that she always seems to hook up with.

sure she will always be friend. this is her lesson. she gets to do all by herself, wink. i dont want to play this one

[Silverhair]

30. I always stand.

The national symbols stand, not for America as it is, but for the ideal, the dream, that we strive to make America into, and that we believe that it can become. And I stand in respect for those who, in generations past, have sacrificed to hand that dream down to me.

To refuse to stand, because you hate W, is to identify America with any one politician. And to those around you, it says that you hate America. Since you are probably known as a progressive to them, then they will question your patriotism, and by association, that of other progressive.

I stand, and am proud to do so.

[Cyrano]

32. Sorry to disagree with you , Silverhair, but It's my belief that you're

living in an America that no longer exists.

I'm guessing of course, but if you're a WWII or Korean vet, I fully understand your feelings about our country. However, I believe you don't realize that the symbols of our country have been usurped by a band of traitorous thugs who wave the flag and call all the rest of us traitors if we don't kneel down and kiss their asses.

As I said, this is just a guess as to your generation. If I'm wrong, let me know.

And if I'm right, you've got to understand that our country and its symbols have been stolen from us. And we need to take them back.

(I believe this is a critical topic. I've gotta go out for a while, but will answer any response you have later.)

[Silverhair]

34. The dream has not died.

I am sorry if it has in you, but there are still many who hold the dream, and not just us geezers either.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

35. It is those who...

...continue to rise for the Anthem, with full knowledge of the imperialist, fascist nation our country has become, that I worry have given up hope and let go of the American dream, not the ones who dare to make a bold statement.

[onenote]

36. when did that America exist?

When slavery was legal? When Jim Crow laws were mainstream? When there were no laws to protect persons of color, or religious minorities? During the 50s? the 60s? the 70s? Reagan's America?

I agree with Silverhair and TX_Dem41: I stand for the national anthem, because of what it is intended to represent, regardless of what the current powers that be are doing to those ideals. I refuse to concede my belief in those ideals and the symbols of those ideals to those who don't truly represent them.

onenote

[Silverhair]

38. Agreed.

That kind of dream is something you strive toward, never attaining it but drawing closer, and passing the dream on to the next generation to carry on the struggle. It is an eternal march.

And, America HAS drawn closer, with each generation. Problems now. Yes, lots of them. But many things are much better than they were in the 60's. We have come a long way, we have a long way to go.

[Guaranteed]

42. I stand for the idea, whether it exists or not. nt

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

33. To refuse to stand is...

...merely a statement of strong condemnation for what this country has become, not a statement about hate. Your rhetoric smacks of the well known, often trumpeted question, "Why do they hate America?"

[Silverhair]

37. Reread my second paragraph, please.

I made a statement of fact.

I did NOT say refusing to stand was a statement of hate.

I DID say, "And to those around you, it says that you hate America." That is a statement predicting how an action will be interpreted by most people. I believe I am correct in that prediction.

If you hold your fist in the air with the middle finger raised, to you it may mean whatever you choose it to mean, but to the rest of the people it will be an insulting provocative gesture. Same with not standing. To you it can mean whatever you want it to mean, but to the people around you, it will be a display of disrespect for the symbols of America and will be interpreted as such.

And then we wonder why our patriotism is so often, and so effectively attacked.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

39. Now it sounds more...

...like you rise for the Anthem for the fear of what others might think, or how they might react if you don't. This is the opposite of bravery.

[Silverhair]

44. No. I rise for respect, and would if I were alone.

That I am also aware of how my actions are received by others around me does not conflict with standing.

The person who choses to sit, must be aware of the way it WILL be viewed by those around. What was his objective? Sounds like he wanted to make those around him angry. He probably succeeded in that. And they were made unreceptive to any politics that he may want to tell them.

Was his objective to start a fight, or to convert?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

46. Please reread my post 33.

Refusing to rise is not about salesmanship or recruiting for a cause.

[Silverhair]

53. Then I would vote against you if you were a candidate.

To get my vote, a candidate must show evidence of believing, and working for, the dream of what America can be, and is on it's way to becoming. Disrespect for the symbols of that dream shows a disrespect for the dream itself.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

56. Symbolism, be it in the...

...form of anthems, pledges, flags, or whatever, once high-jacked by an illegitimate, criminal, central power structure, as America's most treasured symbols have now been, are in my opinion, no longer worthy of tribute. I say this because I don't believe it's possible to pay tribute to these symbols without, at least tacitly, lending support to (however unintended), and thereby legitimizing, that same criminal power structure that high-jacked them---one we know to be illegitimate.

Marriage vows are symbolic of a man and a woman's love and commitment to one another. If at some point in a marriage the love and commitment that was once shared is no more, the marriage is usually dissolved ending in divorce---the symbolic nature of the vows no longer has meaning. Our current administration, as you well know, has over the last four and a half years, all but shredded our Constitution, the document on which this country was founded. This document can, I think, be likened to the love and commitment shared between a married couple---once it's no longer in force, all the important national symbols which derive their meaning from it, are suddenly rendered meaningless. To me, continuing to pay tribute to these symbols with our Constitution in such tatters is like staying in a marriage long after the love and commitment that was once there is gone. It can serve no good purpose.

I think the more patriotic course is to openly refuse to pay tribute to these symbols until our nation is once again a nation governed by, for, and of the people, as our Constitution stipulates it must be. For Americans all across the country to do this often enough, in sufficiently large numbers, would send a message that simply could not be ignored---not by Bushco, not by MSM, not by neocons, and not by the rest of the world. In these trying times, my fellow patriot, it is, I believe, the right thing to do.

[Guaranteed]

41. You got it.

That is exactly right. Thanks!

[Nye Bevan]

45. Agreed

Whatever chimp does he cannot and will not make me hate my country.

[leesa]

63. It's just a song. "to those around you it says you hate America"??

What kind of BS is that? Then I would say that those around him have a big problem.

Feeding this fantasy about America's morality and uprightness is how we got into this mess.

[Silverhair]

31. I would really like to know more about the circumstances.

I have never seen the National Anthem play just for it own sake. Always it has been part of some larger ceremony or ritual. I really have a hard time believing that somebody just slapped a tape in the P.A. system and said, "All Stand". Something else had to be going on that it was part of.

[Bethany Rockafella]

40. Did you have your speedos on?

:-)

[LittleClarkie]

43. You had the right. I probably would have stood

but then I've been around people who wouldn't take an elevator because of the company who made it, so I guess I tend to see some protests as being sort of obscure. That would have been my take. But I can see where you're coming from. You had every right not to stand.

I agree with everyone else in that I'd like to know what the heck playing the anthem was all about at a club.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. You shouldn't have any regrets

If your friends don't like how you used your first amendment right(s) then they aren't real friends. If you don't feel like you should stand you shouldn't. The last time I was at a ball game and they said the pledge I didn't cross my heart for that like most people do. There's only two things in life I'm truly loyal to like that and that is God and the Constiution of the United States. Participating in such things is nice for show but it isn't where my patriotism lies. That's the Constiution. Same thing with the anthem or any other patriotic song.

[ieoeja]

49. Playing the national anthem? I LOVE it!!!

I'm going to get me a CD of the national anthem and toss it on to play every hour or so at every holiday party I attend this winter!

I wonder how many times a night I can do that before folks give up trying to be "good" Americans every time it comes on.

[Dorian Gray]

66. Now THAT's funny!

Ieoeja, I'd love to see that.

I'd stand, but that's just me. I do still respect our country and the principals that it was founded on. I think that this administration has strayed from that, but I still hope... no, believe... that we can get back on course and make our country a better place to live.

(I'm an idealist, though!)

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. Maybe it should have been a Casablanca moment?

Start singing the Marseillaise over the top of it? Or at least after it? (It would go well with you screen name and avatar, too).

[Cyrano]

52. Hi, muriel, I love the idea.

I've been gone for a few hours and Mr. Jefferson has been kind enough to defend my position on this issue.

I'm saddened to see some responses from DUers that, when all the rhetoric is pulled aside, can be translated to mean, "My country right or wrong." There's nothing that you, Mr. Jefferson, or I can do to change their opinions.

Someone suggested that I was trying to make some kind of "statement." If I was, it was a statement of rebellion. In a way, whoever said it was right. I won't be told when to stand to demonstrate my "patriotism" to others. I don't need a spangled piece of cloth to tell me what my values are. And I sure as hell don't need anyone telling me to respect the values of lemmings who will march off a cliff for some obscure purpose that they define as "Americanism."

I know many of these people mean well. But blind loyalty to what this country should/could/might be, is still blind loyalty. Given what is going on under the thugs who have stolen our country, why aren't these "true patriots" rising up in rebellion against what's been done to our freedoms, our rights, our constitution and our national honor?

Oooops, I just caught myself in full rant mode. I guess it's time to shut up. But thanks for reminding me of that great scene in
"Casablanca" where one guy has the balls to stand up for what's right.

On edit: Someone asked why the club I was at decided to play the national anthem over the PA system on Labor Day. I don't have the slightest idea, however, there's no shortage of assholes in the world.

[Piperay]

54. I'll stand for the anthem and for the pledge

even though I don't pledge. I stand as a sign of respect to others because it is important to them and I don't want to insult what is important to other people. Standing for the anthem at a pool though NO I wouldn't do that. Actually it seems kind of disrespectable to even play it at something like that, weird. :shrug:

[Splatter Phoenix]

55. Only in a fascist nation do they force obedient patriotism.

It takes bravery to exercise that freedom. Every day in class when we're to stand for the anthem and pledge both, and I remain sitting, I can feel my heart pounding in my ears and I can feel the stares of the other people staring. I've done it three times in a row and it hasn't gotten any easier.

Of course, to those patriots who believe I don't show enough love for my country, I respond in this way:

"Hagel zum Führer".

[mbee]

57. Our country has been make a mockery by the criminals at the

WH and I don't blame you for not standing. We cannot survive on symbols while we no longer even have free elections.

[FM Arouet666]

58. No regret is my vote. Burn the flag, piss on the flag,....

Sit for the anthem. Screw what anybody thinks. You will undoubtedly be greeted with angry responses to these actions. Brave soldiers died for that flag, you must respect America and stand for the national anthem, etc. Bullshit, no one died for a flag or song, they died so that Americans could have freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom to sit down for the anthem. And freedom to realize that where soldiers died in past wars protecting America from fascists, soldiers are dying today for control of the middle east, for power, for oil, for an administration which seeks to destroy our freedoms.

What a screwed up world.............

[Nobody]

59. Now I'm really curious, why DID they play it?

Was "To Anacreon in Heav'n" played instrumental? This would have been a wonderful opportunity to sing along with the original words.

A the words and the history of this wonderfully unsingable drinking song can be found here:

http://ingeb.org/songs/toanacre.html

Maybe they wanted you to stand because it can be hard to drink when you're not upright. Wouldn't want to spill a drop.

[Darth Lib]

60. America is not about George Bush or John Kerry

Or any one person or group.

America is an Idea. Its a way of life. Its a hope and it is a dream.


You were wrong.

[Silverhair]

64. Welcome to DU. NT

[buddysmellgood]

61. Freedom of expression. Free choice. Free will. Only a facist would

force someone to stand. That said, the rest are free to glare at you and be pissed and rude. That is their choice. I applaud you.

[manic expression]

62. You did the right thing

standing against injustice and insanity is as courageous and amazing as it is right.

Martin Luther King Jr. said this:
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

I tip my hat to you for not standing for what is wrong and standing for what is right. Thank you.

By the way, you're in good company! ;)

[Cyrano]

65. Just tuned back in. I had no idea my experience would raise controversy.

Many of you asked why this club played the national anthem over the PA system on Labor Day. All I can say is????? I don't have a clue. Maybe Rush Limbaugh is part owner and likes to watch lemmings do what lemmings do.

What's been most surprising to me is the number of DUers who pay homage to the stolen symbols of our country. A symbol is one thing, reality is another. And we are currently living under a fascist regime that is still working toward completing their agenda: Total power over us (and the rest of the world).

I pity those who don't see this. And I despise those who do see it and go along with it. There is much in the history of our country to be proud of, and just as much to be ashamed of. Assuming we survive this era, any decent human being would want to be able to say, "I fought our home-grown facism as best as I could."

Perhaps that sounds a bit dramatic, but ten, twenty, thirty years from now, it will, (hopefully), be a badge of pride.

On edit: To those who still honor the symbols of our country, I look forward to rejoining you. And hopefully, that day is not too far off.

[kid a]

67. "hypothetical" - Should a teacher, after the Monday morning, traditional

standing of the class and Anthem piped in over the loudspeaker, have a discussion about why we stand, what the anthem means, freedom of speech and the rights of each individual student to think about the words, their country and have the option to stand, squat, jump up and down, salute, sit, and or put their head on the tabel?

Think Seniors here . . . most over 18