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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:15 AM
Original message
Poll question: How did we lose the CA election?
How did we lose it? If you choose "Other" please post your take on the election.

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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's Davis' fault
All of it. This whole thing is Gray Davis' fault.

It's not a referrendum of the Democratic Party.

It's not an referrendum of liberalism.

Hell, it wasn't even about Arnold.

It was all about Gray Davis and the fact that people hated him more than they hated Nixon after Watergate.

It's a shame what happened out in California, but those voters got what they deserve.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Drivers' Licenses for illegals/ high taxes did it
The immigrant hating "americans" and the old Prop. 13 crowd did it.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's a good point.
I think these were a little below the radar, but for people who think these things are important, it no doubt energized the opposition more than the proponents.

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Here:
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. There were very good arguments for doing that stuff, but media controlled
the representation of the issues.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Really?
well, how did Gray explain it?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. Allow me to correct a misperception here
People LIKE ME who oppose Senate Bill 60 are not immigrant-haters. We just don't want illegal aliens to have driver's licenses that look just like ours.

A better solution would be simply to honor driver's licenses from other countries. Or print something on licenses issued to illegals to keep them from being able to register to vote or buy a gun, e.g. "Not a verified legal resident".

I don't have a problem with illegal aliens getting a driver's license, but SB60 is poorly thought out and the timing helped hand Davis his ass on a platter. The legislature did not have to give it to him a month before a recall election. They gave him a lose-lose choice.

Most of us were too young to vote when Prop. 13 was passed but it's an important issue to many. As a homeowner I support it.
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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Exactly right
A buddy of mine, very intelligent, educated, liberal background and all, voted FOR the recall and continually referred to Gray Davis as "Gumby." They hate the guy out there alright.
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Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. People are desperate for answers
Its that simple.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. People don't even know the questions
if they know anything.
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HERVEPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. Because people are really, really Stupid!
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Let's just say they're self-interested and mis-informed
Surely they're not all stupid.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Davis Should Have Made Enron And Deregulation
the central issue...and kept tyinng Ah-nuld to Ken Lay and Wilson..
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I agree with you. I think that was the key issue.
And we have to ask ourselves why didn't Gore stand with Clinton and run on their joint successes and why didn't Davis run on the obvious winner - in other words why don't the Democratic party representatives run on their strongest positons? WTF?
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
9. You left off...All of the above
that is why I voted "other". I think it was a combination of everything you listed, it wasn't any one thing.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. It looks like the poll is all over the map
So perhaps your observation is correct. All of the above. And possibly more. Bummer.

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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. Other: Its the Economy Stupid
A bad economy and a massive deficit are not good for incumbents.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think we can rule out option #1
The two GOP Candidates got a total of 61% of the vote. Since it is reasonable to assume that anyone voting GOP would want the recall to pass (otherwise what is the point huh?) I would say that the Recall passed because with about a 7% lag GOP voters approved of it. Had there been 69% support for the recall then choice #1 would look more likely
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reachout Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. As Davis once told the LA Times...
"I have only one skill, I can pick weak opponents." (and he lifted that line from Alan Cranston)

He has never been a strong democratic candidate. In 1998 he won the nomination because his opponents savaged each other. In the last election he won with 47% because he stuck his fingers in the Republican primary so that he wouldn't run against the strongest Republican opponent.

In office, he was constantly at odds with the liberal democrats in the state legislature because, less face it, he's pretty conservative for a California Democrat. Take a look at his campaign finance for the last election and look at how many Republicans gave him money. Sometimes you can judge a man by the company he keeps. Davis spent way too much of his time alienating the Democrat base. The exit polling indicates he lost in part due to defections by Latinos and union workers. If a Dem in CA can't get those two groups to vote for him, he may as well hang up his hat.

Davis ran up against a strong opponent, and didn't have a mobilized base supporting him. Yes, I know, Arnold has zero political experience. But, think for a minute how well that plays with a lot of voters. Everyone seems to want their government run well, but nobody wants "politicians" to do it. The "I'm one of you and not part of the big policital machine" spiel worked great for Arnold. People ate it up.

Californian's wanted a leader. Davis never really came off as a leader...Arnold did. Now they get to live with their decision.


(Just an FYI: While I now reside in the Midwest, I was a long-time SoCal resident, and have kept up with politics in the state.)


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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's "Democratic base", not "Democrat base"
"Democrat base" is a republican slur. I'm sure it was just a typo.
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reachout Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Just for the record
I think the name calling game is childish on both sides of the fence and I DO NOT play. It lowers political discourse to the level of the schoolyard.

I may call members of the Democratic Party "Democrats" "Demos" "Dems" or any other sort of thing. I may call members of the Republican Party "Repbulicans" "Repbubs" or even "Reps"...but none of this Repukes, Whistle Ass, * or any of that business (as well I don't use perjoratives like Deanieboppers or Naderties). I apologize if the sematics of "Democrat base" offends you. I use a lot of abbreviations, but I don't use slurs against anyone, regardless of affiliation.

Peace
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. It's not the "semantics" - it's the grammar
Democrat is a noun.

Democratic is an adjective. Your sentence required the use of the adjective to describe the noun "base."

The grammar is not what really offends many here, however. There's more to the story. In the early 90's the Gingrich led wrecking crew deliberately started using the noun Democrat, instead of the appropriate adjective Democratic, to describe our party. Gingrich, the college professor, thought sacrificing correct usage of the language a worthy cause as the term "Democrat Party" de-emphasizes our democratic ideals. And they thought it was downright hilarious that this usage spread so fast among pundits that now even some Democrats use the term.

Hope you can understand why seeing a Democrat use the term "Democrat base" offends many here and why it's regarded as a slur.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. It doesn't offend me, it makes you look like a Republican
I was only trying to help.

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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. Agreed. Davis is a lousy Democrat.
He should have been railing on the Enron thing, connecting it up to El Arbusto and Arnold, and how big money was trying to buy the election.

He's also a shitty Democrat, IMHO. Ass-kissing to big money thinking that SOMEHOW they won't double-cross him at the earliest convenience, and alienating the Democratic base in the process.

So, he's an unpopular Democrat, not particularly liked by his party, and absolutely hated by the Repubs? Where is his "power base"?

Maybe this defeat will re-energize the party and enable us to do some "housecleaning". Because you know damn well that with Ahnuld in charge, things sure as hell ain't getting better.

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LightTheMatch Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. OTHER: Davis Didn't Go Negative Early or Often Enough.
Simply put, Davis could have buried Arnold's candidacy early, but decided to wait until the last weekend to pull out the really big guns... a huge tactical mistake. He should have attacked early and often behind the scenes (not from the campaign directly) on many fronts, destroying Arnold's early momentum and not allowing it to build - by making sure that he had to spend plenty of time defending himself and creating doubt.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
17. "Other" It's the voting machines -- plain and simple.
And the disenfranchised Dem voters who were never sent their letters from polls that were relocated, or voters who were conveniently NOT on the rolls in their precincts.

The fix is in. How many more elections will it take before this country takes back our elections?

:kick:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I don't think so
If the "fix" happened while Davis was governor, then he deserved to be recalled.
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Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. 75% of the people in this nation are media created idiots...
I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this, but I even lowered the percentage because I usually say that 85% of the American people are idiots.

Cue laugh track for the rest of the world, because we are truly a bunch of idiots.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. I can think of many reasons
1- Davis is colder then a frozen tuna. I was surprised to see him walk around in sunlight and not burst in flames.

2- Arnold name recognition

3- Energy crisis caused by deregulation. Now what kind of democrat supports massive deregulation? That alone was reason enough to fire him.

4- Scape goat syndrome. Why think, when you can blame the creepy white guy for your troubles.

5- The free press this Arnold got vs the Bad press Davis recieved. Up until the last week the "liberal" media was all smiles and sunshine when it came to Arnold.

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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. Other - Perot factor
There is a bubbling discontent in America and we just caught a glimpse of it in the California recall. Incumbents beware. I honestly believed that the '04 election would be a repeat of '00 with a 50/50 nation biting its nails.

I now think that Bush will not only lose but lose BIG.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. Other, The general populace is stupid
n/t
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
26. Maybe Davis LOST it on his own 'merits'
Something remarkably similar happened to one Bill Clinton during his first term as Governor of Arkansas. He significantly raised car license fees and a group of "suspect aliens" (Cuban refugees housed at Fort Chaffee) received what some folks saw as preferential treatment.

Sure enough, Arkies turned to somebody who was about as qualified as Ahnold: Frank White. Now there was a cartoon!

So I think "Other" wins this poll.

:+
dbt
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. Americans love their stars!
This nation is jam-packed with starfuckers, let's face it. No one seems to give a damn about issues that affect their own goddamn wallets, but "it would be soooooooo cool to have a movie star for governor, woo-hoo!!!!!!!!"

There are dozens of reasons why Colly-forn-eeya went for Arnie, but don't underestimate the power of the starfucker vote. It is very, very closely linked to the booger-eatin' vote.




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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
30. Looks like media bias is the winner
And there certainly was a lot of it, from Jay Leno all the way through to Oprah Winfrey brown-nosing the brown shirts incessantly.
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
31. Combination of Factors
Even among Democrats, Davis is not a beloved character. A significant portion of the base didn't turn out to support him.

The media was more interested in reporting the "circus" elements of the campaign than the real issues.

Celebrity is everything in contemporary America. For the love of God, more than 12,000 voted for Gary Coleman.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
34. Arnold won because of rigged voting machines
nt
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I'm hoping for a few lawsuits to bring this issue to the fore
Assuming we can gather some evidence of machine failure or fixing. I understand Bev is tabulating and some people are already talking about a lawsuit.
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. I think Bustamante was a TERRIBLE CANDIDATE
and its why we lost! Its Obvious!! :bounce:

I'm just Livid the democrats couldn't bring another candidate to the
table! UnBeleivable! :bounce:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
37. Davis could have saved himself but made several major blunders
I'll probably be both shouted down and ignored for saying this, but thanks in advance to all of you who serve to perpetuate my lifelong Cassandra complex.

Gray Davis compounded a bad political situation that was arguably not all his fault by making multiple vain attempts to pander to large blocs of voters, in particular union workers and Latinos.

On Monday I overheard a conversation among some employees at a supermarket in San Diego. They are members of the United Food and Commmercial Workers or UFCW, which is poised on the brink of a major strike because their employers are trying to negotiate down their health benefits and pay. That's all business as usual in union shops, but something they said caught my attention: The UFCW had distributed video tapes encouraging people to vote for Cruz Bustamante as a replacement governor. I could not determine what the union's official position was on the recall question itself, but it was clear that the employees were in favor of recalling Gray Davis and scoffing at the suggestion that a vote for Bustamante was in their best interests. They were shaking their heads, and the names Peter Camejo and Arnold Schwarzenegger were mentioned.

The state legislature handed Davis a giant turd last month when it sent him the enormously unpopular SB60, a poorly thought-out bill that will allow illegal aliens to obtain California Driver Licenses effective January 1, 2004. Something like 70% of voters are opposed to SB60 because it diminishes the value of a California Driver License; if the new law goes into effect it will invalidate the Driver License as evidence of legal residence in the state. That will make it trivially easy for illegal aliens FROM ALL COUNTRIES to engage in many activities traditionally or legally reserved for legal residents. A Driver License is the only formal ID you need in order to buy a gun in California (in fact it's one of only three forms of ID that are acceptable for that purpose), and the bill lacks any workable guarantees to prevent illegal aliens from registering to vote. A lot of us including me are very pissed off about SB60. The Democrats in the legislature surely should have known that forcing Davis to either sign or veto the measure would cost him dearly. I question how much party loyalty really exists among Democrats at that level.

Davis could not avoid making a lose-lose choice on SB60, but the course he chose - Reversing his previous statement of non-support and then signing the measure into law with great fanfare - is seen by many Californians, including me, as a vain attempt to pander to an almost universally misunderstood bloc of voters - the "Latino Community". Another bill he signed at the 11th hour waives tuition at junior colleges for illegal aliens.

I've got news for the remaining Democrats in Sacaramento: The Latino Community is as diverse as the population at large. It includes religious conservatives who oppose abortion, business onwners, wealthy professionals, techies who grew up in white suburbs and don't speak a word of Spanish, business owners, and every other species of voter you can think of. Latinos as a group have little more sympathy for illegal aliens than anyone else does. Many Latinos have children who are getting ready to go to college. Most of us, including me, feel human compassion for distressed people, but many of us resent both their disregard for our immigration laws AND the federal government's failure to address the issue of non-resident labor and its failure to enforce the law. People who went through the proper naturalization process resent how Davis and the legislature have assumed they would buy into this obvious pandering.

Most Latinos in California are natural-born US citizens. Most Latino immigrants are naturalized US citizens who came to this country the right way. Tossing a few bones to illegal aliens is not the way to win the hearts of Latinos.

Davis screwed the pooch on the energy crisis two summers ago. He should have listened to US Senator Diane Feinstein, who in her usual wisdom advised him to keep his hands off and let the market take care of the situation. He didn't listen to her, and the result of his errors will cost us dearly for many years to come. I know a Latino family that owns a successfuly restaurant here in San Diego. Their monthly power bills went from about $1,500 to almost $3,000 in mid-2001. They spent many thousands of dollars having skylights installed into their building and replacing every incandescent light with a fluorescent, and some repainting to make the place more energy efficient. The patriarch and matriarch immigrated to the US from Mexico in the late 1950s and has handed the business down to the next generation, now in their mid-40s. FWIW they are all Republicans. Several of their employees live in Mexico and commute across the border daily to work, legally, and they do not hire illegals. They're glad to see Davis go, and they did not vote for Bustamante.

I know that family pretty well. I've been to a few of their family functions and see them around town at restaurants, house parties, etc. They're just a small snapshot but I think they illustrate the terrible miscalculation that Gray Davis and our Democratic leaders in the state legislature have made in recent years.

California has far more interest groups than most people imagine, and the state is deeply divided on the left/right, Republican/Democrat scale. This morning's San Diego Union-Tribune printed a map showing how each of our 58 counties went on the recall measure. The map looks very familiar to anyone who remembers the 2000 Presidential election - Almost precisely every county that went for Al Gore in 2000 voted against the recall of Gray Davis. And about every county that went for Bush in 2000 favored the recall. This time the right took it because the left failed to comprehend that people vote their personal interests and not their race, party, religion, etc. Pandering to class would be more likely to succeed than pandering to race, but in the long run I think that would fail as peoples' perceptions of what class they belong to shifts up and down with the economic tides.

My message to Democratic leaders: Stop trying to pander to special interests. Stop trying to legislate universal prosperity by fiat. Stop passing ever more onerous restrictions on personal liberty. Stop bickering along party lines. Debate every issue vigorously, but be willing to give up some ground if someone else has a better idea. Balance the budget. Make our schools work. Fix the damn roads. And have a nice day.
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