Something rotten in America

[jmatthan]

I am truly amazed by the result of the California election.

30000+ "activists" on this forum, and thousands of others on many other liberal American forums, powerful and compelling talk show hosts as Mike Malloy, Peter Werbe, Thom Hartman, Nancy Skinner, Bernie Ward, Guy James, etc., absolutely great web sites as Moveon.org, Buzzflash.com, CommonDreams.org, Bartcop.com., Truthout.com, powerful writers and authors as David Corn, Michael Moore, finding their expression in The Nation and The Guardian besides their books and films, absolutely phenomenal researchers as Bev Harris, etc., and yet the Bush Crime Family and its cabal of crooks stays well entrenched in power, aided and abetted by wimpy Democratic Congressmen and Senators, while to top that, a Republican Nazi-admiring female groper and molester gets elected as Governor of California!

When I set up my web site

http://www.findians.com/educated.html

I thought my "American correspondent - Tom" was an exception to all that is good in America.

Now I firmly believe that the "Archie Bunker" syndrome is not an exception but the real heart and soul of modern America.

It is in that frame of mind that many around the world (not Muslims, alone) wake up every single morning eagerly hoping to see that more Americans are killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and anywhere else they are spreading their foul hegemony (as now in Venezuela).

We do not support "your troops". We have no reason to "support" the actions of gun-toting killers of innocent people. We have no reason to support your vicious troops who use weapons of mass destruction as depleted uranium and cluster bombs on innocent women and children. We do not appreciate the American way of invading and conquering - from the Wild West onwards.

American children grow up with glorification of that horrible past of death and destruction sown on the native Indians while the "Wild" West was conquered.

When will they be taught the truth?

Do any of you liberal minded Americans believe that any American child grows up without violence deeply embeded and glorified in his / her heart.

As Arundhati Roy suggested - the world will remain in this distasteful Imperialistic mode till "sensible" Americans (I now doubt if there is any such thing) take matters in their own hands and rid the world of the corrupt Yankee Ceausescus.

Till then many wait, hope and fervently pray to their many Gods that more and more Americans (and it may be your father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, husband, wife, cousin, uncle, aunt, friend, lover) are killed in conflicts they have wrought on the rest of the world in the false name of "Democracy".

Woe on you, "Democrats" of America.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[ElsewheresDaughter]

1. you nailed it down...exactly

[G_j]

2. I understand your sentiments

I've been speaking, pleading, fighting against the macho, bully, thug in America's psyche for the better part of 52 years.
I have no answers for you.

[carolinayellowdog]

3. Scapegoating and self-contradiction

Jacob,

Although you are familiar with:

>"30000+ "activists" on this forum, and thousands of others on many other liberal American forums, powerful and compelling talk show hosts as Mike Malloy, Peter Werbe, Thom Hartman, Nancy Skinner, Bernie Ward, Guy James, etc., absolutely great web sites as Moveon.org, Buzzflash.com, CommonDreams.org, Bartcop.com., Truthout.com, powerful writers and authors as David Corn, Michael Moore, finding their expression in The Nation and The Guardian besides their books and films, absolutely phenomenal researchers as Bev Harris, etc.,"

and therefore with the facts that Bush lost the last election and his approval ratings have been steadily dropping, you still conclude:

>"that the "Archie Bunker" syndrome is not an exception but the real heart and soul of modern America."

which therefore justifies you in lashing out at us here at DU. You ask:

>Do any of you liberal minded Americans believe that any American child grows up without violence deeply embeded and glorified in his / her heart.

but I ask you, what nation does not have a violent history and what human does not have the capacity for violence? Pretending that there is something uniquely evil about America, in order to distance yourself, is an understandable method of scapegoating. But why come here, where people are suffering already from this ghastly development, and add insult to injury by telling us:

>"sensible" Americans (I now doubt if there is any such thing)

OK, hate us *all* then if it makes everything clearer and simpler for you.

killed in conflicts they have wrought on the rest of the world in the false name of "Democracy".

When condemning our entire nation and its entire history, do take a moment to consider that the present health of democracy in Europe owes a debt to America's interventions during the 20th century.

>Woe on you, "Democrats" of America.

What can one say in response to this other than we've already got plenty of woe and don't need your scapegoating to make us feel worse. Stay away from all Americans if you regard us all as the enemy, because DUers don't need this crap right now.

CYD

[spooky3]

7. well put.

[candy331]

11. I am afraid

that just as we accuse the Repugs of not willing to listen, the same can be found with us. Being super sensitive to the truth when heard taking it personally is tantomount to remaining in denial. I am sure you know that he was not talking on a personal basis but the country as seen as a whole. Constructive critism should be used to analyze and make the neccesary corrections. Who does not know that there is something wrong with the underlying foundation of this country? Only those in denial. Attack and denial unfortunately will never solve anything.

[carolinayellowdog]

13. No denial here

Hi Candy,

>that just as we accuse the Repugs of not willing to listen, the same can be found with us.

NOBODY is willing to listen to remarks that smear an entire group to which they belong, explicitly making no exception for present company.

>Being super sensitive to the truth when heard taking it personally is tantomount to remaining in denial.

I'm not taking it personally. It was the antithesis of a personal attack. It was an attack on all Americans and DUers specifically.

>I am sure you know that he was not talking on a personal basis but the country as seen as a whole.

A whole country without a single sensible person in it, in which each and every individual is profoundly violent in thought if not in action, etc.

>Constructive critism should be used to analyze and make the neccesary corrections.

I think I can recognize constructive criticism, and repeatedly wishing death upon Americans is, on the face of things, destructive criticism. Which was used destructively by someone else "seeing as a whole"-- that is, Rush seeing all Democrats in America as sharing Jacob's anti-American sentiments.

> Who does not know that there is something wrong with the underlying foundation of this country?

There is something wrong with the underlying foundation of any country: it was constructed by human beings with all that entails. That Americans are uniquely evil in essence, rather than caught up in evil circumstances, I absolutely reject; don't you?

> Only those in denial. Attack and denial unfortunately will never solve anything.

Even if this country were 80/20 Rep/Dem rather than 50/50; even if twice as many Americans now thought the Iraq invasion was worthwhile as do; even if * won fair and square rather than stealing the election; I would deny that all Americans are as Jacob has portrayed us in his sweeping condemnation. That's not the defense mechanism brand of denial; it's correcting a misrepresentation-- one that was intended maliciously and has had malicious consequences for DU.

CYD

[Karenina]

24. May I respectfully request

that DUer's not take Jacobs words as a "personal attack?" I realize that is difficult. What he is manifesting is the INCREDIBLE frustration of one who is "on America's side" astonished, disappointed, frightened, outraged, in disbelief, angry, etc. etc. and YES lashing out (seemingly at those with whom he has established contact- who are NOT the real target of his ire) at the INANITY that passes for politics in the most POWERFUL and DANGEROUS (as CLEARLY shown by its current *misadministration) country in the world. We here on the other side of the pond are simply stunned. Some deal with it by becoming cynical. Others by blaming and penning screeds. Bottom line is the overwhelming horror that America has been taken over by fascists and her people are powerless to stop it.

[Clete]

36. I did not take it personally myself.

We need to hear what others have to say about us and what we appear to be to others. I am afraid I have to agree with a lot of what he says. Although there are a lot of Archie Bunkers in our country, there are also a lot Martin Luther Kings and Cesar Chavezes. In a country this diverse one size doesn't fit all, although I do believe we have too many white men in power making everyone else very underepresented.

[outinforce]

43. Fascists? Here?

"Bottom line is the overwhelming horror that America has been taken over by fascists and her people are powerless to stop it."

Put your mind at rest -- all of you on the other side of the pond.

The election of Arnold in California does not mean that "America has been taken over by fascists and her people are powerless to stop it."

Politics in this country is, in many ways, local. Unlike elections in most continental countries, our local elections are truly local. The recall of California's governor, and the election of Arnold to that post had much more to do with local issues than it had to do with anything remotely affecting America's foreign policy.

Arnold, though a Republican, is certainly NOT the sort of person with whom Jacob had his exchange of email correspondence. The people who voted for Arnold were, I am certain, not overwhelmingly facsists.

So please -- PLEASE -- put away your "overwhleming horror" and relax. This country -- and the world -- survived Jo McCarthy, Richard Nixon, and Ronald Reagan.

We'll survive this, too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. Thanks for defending us

"Democrats" of America. :hi:

[DemExpat]

4. Well, that's ONE way of looking at the U.S.....

but you are totally ignoring the other side of the coin of the dichotomy and paradox of America.

The world's largest and oldest Democracy.....

An economy built on brilliant production methods and managing of consumption to bring higher standards of living to more people all over the world.

A nation that many people on this globe have a love/hate....fear/admiration relationship with....a country whose values of individualism and self-realization along with the American way of life many people DO want to emulate.

A nation with an enormous hold on the world's imagination with respect to its popular culture, its education, its enginnering, its scientific endeavors......

Sorry, your post is very one-sided, very negative, and not very appreciated...at least by me.

What you say may well be true, but it is only one PIECE of what America IS.

DemEx

edit: And I do not glorify the US - I've lived in The Netherlands for most of my life...still do... so I have a mighty "big" country (figuratively) to compare the US to. I glaringly see the faults of the US AND of Holland, but I refuse to write either couintry off as a slide into disaster and something to disdain.

EVOLUTION, hoepfully, to a better world one of these centuries.....

[G_j]

8. I also love much about America,

with it's creative and positive contributions,
from jazz to computers. We also have a legacy of courageous battles for civil rights, workers rights, childrens rights, womens rights, animal rights, environmental sanity, and the list goes on.. We have in our history awesome warriors who have always fought for the good and served as inspirational examples for the rest of the world.

Sometimes though, the dark side seems to hold sway over the 'hearts' of the people. This seems to be the case now, our more brutal fear based tendancies have been manipulated into a glorification of arrogant, self-righteous, selfish, bullying behavior.
We(~as a people)have let the bullies and thugs speak for us and when we exibit this behavior it is often glorified and rewarded. Somehow we(~) believe and condone this macho posturing that is supposed to be strength. If you watch TV or most of the movies we make, the three Rs have become revenge, retaliation and retribution. Can anyone deny it? The BFEE has now taken advantage of the American acceptance of violence and force to drag us into an illegal and brutal invasion and occupation. We 'warmonger' over the globe.

Bush might have been diqualified in people's minds for the presidency simply because he was responsible for so many executions in Texas, but the death penalty is popular. Arnold should have been gone in a wisper because of his behavior and past statements. But "macho" is IN. I'm proud that I stand with many Americans in the tradition of compassion, fairness and diplomacy. If I can be proud, I can also be ashamed.

I won't be in denial, as a people we can justifiably be ashamed for our country right now.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

9. And yet you prove his point!

The world's largest and oldest Democracy.....

Oldest maybe... Largest, not bloody likely. In fact, not even close. That honour falls to India, home of nearly a BILLION people who DO get to vote for their leaders.

An economy built on brilliant production methods and managing of consumption to bring higher standards of living to more people all over the world.

Now I know you're pulling my leg! It is also home to the worlds largest national debt. Yes, that's right, YOUR economy is based on BORROWING from OUR economies...

A nation with an enormous hold on the world's imagination with respect to its popular culture, its education, its enginnering, its scientific endeavors......

Many if not most taken from other countries. By the way, I bet you didn't know that any Jackie Chan movie has been seen by more people than any American movie...

Most of the world doesn't even speak the same language, and you seem to think YOUR culture is desired over all others? Dream on.

[DemExpat]

27. Ahhhhh....but where was the cinema developed?

Developed its production and distribution processes and technologies?

Popular 'formats' for films?........... Hollywood........


I have a hunch that Hollywood is far more exportable than Indian or Japanese cinema.....as I see young people the world over emulating American popular culture...not Japanese or Indian.

I wonder if Indian democracy is in actuality a 'real' democracy .....fair and honest elections everywhere for those billions of voters.....? No one disenfranchised?

The US is still the main attraction for immigrants (of all levels of income and education) from all over the world.....because it's such a worthless, unnattractive place to go?

Are you not profiting from your standard of living based on the American Way - based on it's methods of production, distribution, services?
The automobile? Household appliances? Food and other technologies? The friggin computer you are using?
In Holland we are all profiting, I can assure you!

As you said, 'many if not most taken from other countries......' well, American people are also 'taken' from other countries - a land of immigrants, just like Australia and New Zealand - but Americans have had the drive and savvy to find ways to make things ACCESSIBLE to more people than ever before - this is one thing that makes this culture exceptional....

You dream on, DevilsAdvocate, if you deny all of the material benefits, cultural pleasures and scientific advancements YOU enjoy that have been based on American innovations and/or developments.
Unless of course you live in the gorgeous wilds of New Zealand as the Maori's did before whites colonized it.

Dream on too,if you deny how the US in World War II and after had a big hand in keeping Europe and Asia out of totalitarian hands......

I'm not denying the dark side of American hegemony, I 'hate' so many aspects of what America 'is', what it represents - I'm just defending what I see are the positive things that have sprung forth from its innovative culture.

Nowhere did I say the American culture was desired above all others, but many cultures the world over want to enjoy and incorporate aspects of it.
In fact, I mentioned above that many people have a love/hate attitude towards the states. Hate it for its arrogance and selfishness, but love its strengths, creativity and exceptional achievments.


More people in the world speak English, WANT to speak English as a second language than any other, I believe, so the spread of Americanism is facilitated in that way.....

I love the Dutch culture as well as parts of my American (and Scots/Irish roots)......I see the negatives in these cultures as well along with recognizing their uniqueness and positive points.

Why be blind to the bad OR the good?

DemEx

[Devils Advocate NZ]

37. Well...

Developed its production and distribution processes and technologies?

Popular 'formats' for films?........... Hollywood........

All of that came on the back of the original development of photography as natural extensions of the art. Who invented photography? A Frenchman named Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre.
(source: http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blphotography.htm )

I have a hunch that Hollywood is far more exportable than Indian or Japanese cinema.....as I see young people the world over emulating American popular culture...not Japanese or Indian.

Tell that to anime fans! Did you know that many of the most popular cartoons on TV today are actually Japanese? As for Indian cinema, who needs to export when your own country has almost a sixth of the worlds population? Same goes for China, except we are talking one third!

I wonder if Indian democracy is in actuality a 'real' democracy .....fair and honest elections everywhere for those billions of voters.....? No one disenfranchised?

What, you mean like the 2000 US Presidential election? Indian democracy is as real as US democracy, that's for sure.

Are you not profiting from your standard of living based on the American Way - based on it's methods of production, distribution, services?
The automobile? Household appliances? Food and other technologies? The friggin computer you are using?

The first automobile was invented by another Frenchman, Nicolas Cugnot. However, that was a steam powered tractor, so perhaps you will claim it doesn't count. In that case I will point out that the internal combustion engine was invented by a German, Nikolaus August Otto. But maybe that is not enough for you either. Well how about this: the first modern automobile combining a gasoline fueled internal combustion engine mounted on a four wheeled chassis was invented by German Gottlieb Daimler.
(source: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarsgasa.htm )

The refrigerator is a good example of American development as the first mechanical refrigerator was invented by American Oliver Evans. However, 57 years earlier the first known example of artificial refrigeration was demonstrated by Scotsman William Cullen at the University of Glasgow, although he never developed his discovery for practical use.

The TV is another such example. The first mechanical television was invented by German Paul Nipkow, but the first electronic television was invented by American Philo T. Farnsworth and Englishman John Logie Baird an early mechanical television inventor developed the first moving and colour electronic televisions.

But getting beyond invention to the appliances I have today, not one of them comes from the US. I have a Japanese made computer and TV, a New Zealand made washing machine etc etc, but not one American made device.

As you said, 'many if not most taken from other countries......' well, American people are also 'taken' from other countries - a land of immigrants, just like Australia and New Zealand - but Americans have had the drive and savvy to find ways to make things ACCESSIBLE to more people than ever before - this is one thing that makes this culture exceptional....

Bollocks! Now you are talking about international trade, which existed for centuries and even millenia before America was even discovered by Columbus! Hell, it was as a desire to expand markets and gain new resources that the Americas were discovered in the first place!

You dream on, DevilsAdvocate, if you deny all of the material benefits, cultural pleasures and scientific advancements YOU enjoy that have been based on American innovations and/or developments.

Man you really are an arrogant American aren't you? You really believe that EVERYTHING was invented by an American! Well, you are TOTALLY WRONG. Rockets? Germans! Nuclear fission? A New Zealander! Alternating Current electricity generation and transmission? A Serb!

I am not saying that nothing was invented by Americans, but that far more than you realise was invented by non-Americans, and even when Americans invented something, it was most often based on principles gathered from other nations.

More people in the world speak English, WANT to speak English as a second language than any other, I believe, so the spread of Americanism is facilitated in that way.....

Huh? Because they want to speak ENGLISH they are showing a preference for America? You do realise that the reason they want to speak English is because the English created a globe spanning empire that resulted in many English speaking nations, and NOT because America sprang up as one of those nations, don't you?

It also resulted in English being the language that was used for international trade, alongside French and Spanish. Where in there is the American language?

Americans are propagandised from the day they are born to believe that America is the best at everything, when that is in reality far from the truth. That is where American arrogance comes from, and that is why America is disliked by so many people around the world.

[DemExpat]

38. Where in my post did I say that America invented it all?

Nowhere......
I said that they developed methods of production and distribution to make all that wonderful stuff ACCESSIBLE to many more people.

Read some books on Fordism if you're interested....

Perhaps your appliances are not American made, but the methods of production that got them to your house most certainly are based on American know-how initially.....

Of course the US has used knowledge from the world, just as the world uses American-produced knowledge......

Silly, English is becoming the world's language as I posted above...not American.....

You fail to address the huge immigration into the US and the world's youth emulating American culture (adapted, of course to theirs)....
It does have a hold on imagination, whether you like it or not.
And I fully acknowledge the double feelings the world has about the US - I'm simply saying it is not all rotten.

BTW, I'm not an arrogant American at all......I'm a most critical American/Dutch dual citizen who tries to see both sides of a nation's/ culture's story. America has still provided incredible gifts, not only material, to the world...along with its imperialistic bullying.

DemEx

[sweetheart]

46. discussing brainwashing with the brainwashed ?

New Zealand strikes again.. :-) I remember as an american child living in switzerland inviting my neighbor over for dinner telling his mum that we were having the american dish "pizza" which i later found out was rather more local.. ;-) But i was sooooo embarassed by how the family responded to my saying that... and only years later did i catch on to the gross brainwashing in to which i had been dipped in american schooling... that which grates on non-americans as ignorance and arrogance.

The fact in this discussion is that our finnish friend is overwhelmed by the bad news of american deterioration, and rightly so... and he don't know who is in charge anymore... it seems that nobody is responsible in america, nobody is answerable and nobody is truthful or honest... what a foul stench.

New zealand has its own issues with maori racism and race-based poverty left over from the white invasion of settlers that you yourself were once on the new zealand west bank until it was annexed. .. and finland has less than income equality with its sammi people of its north and a rigid caste system as to who can asceed to power and influence... rigid and not very feminine.

The thing i think people are missing is that democracy is a failure above population mass of 100 million people. It works when the nation is small enough for there still to be responsibility and community sense... as in all european countries.... but when we explore "larger" democracy as in india, america, pakistan, brazil, indonesia, japan and russia... we see collaborative collapsing, incompetent totalitarian states with the notable exception of brazil.

The american federal experiment is a run-away thermonuclear explosion... its a total failure, but it will not collapse without destroying most of the world with it... like the nuclear bombs that america has built its foundation of "peace" on... the nation will collapse under the incredible selfishness, ignorance and foolhardy stupidity rampant at every level in the public mind.

It is not the average american's fault at all... truly, for the average joe, there is no democracy at all in america... its orwellian doublespeak on every television screen, brainwashed people with flags on their cars and a sense that somebody far away is controlling the prison doors that they open in sequence so that the prisoners can get about prison-state america.. so that the flexible-prison labour economy can prove slave labour is better.... the civil war has been lost and you and i both loathe the evil plantation owners that are returning the world to a time of economic feudalism.

[outinforce]

48. Where do YOU live?

"its orwellian doublespeak on every television screen, brainwashed people with flags on their cars and a sense that somebody far away is controlling the prison doors that they open in sequence so that the prisoners can get about prison-state america.. so that the flexible-prison labour economy can prove slave labour is better."

I take from your spelling of words like "labour" that you do not live here in the United States.

It amazes me how people outside our borders think that they know this country -- based, I suppose, on what their "objective" news sources tell them about us.

Yes, we have many people -- too many people, in my view -- in prison. Many of them are there for what are minor drug infractions.

But that does NOT mean that we live in a prison-state.

Honestly, phrases like "prison-state America" and "flexible-prisoin labor economy" are, frankly, down-right silly.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Devils Advocate NZ]

55. It's the only way to defeat it!

New zealand has its own issues with maori racism and race-based poverty left over from the white invasion of settlers that you yourself were once on the new zealand west bank until it was annexed.

Too true. Being a Maori, I am well aware of the problems of my country. I do not mean to imply that New Zeland or anywhere else is better than America, I am merely stating that America is no better than New Zealand or most other nations.

More powerful, yes. But power doesn't automatically confer superior quality. The Soviet Union was more powerful than New Zeland, but we here in New Zealand still lived in a better country. Might doesn't make right, but most Americans seem to forget that, including many Democrats.

It is not the average american's fault at all... truly, for the average joe, there is no democracy at all in america..

I agree it is not their fault, but it IS their responsibility. The world we live in is an artificial reality concocted by media magnates and super corporations. They tell us what to think, and then in most cases we think it. Almost as bad as the thoughtless sheep are the self-deluding sheep that think they know what is going on, and see the manipulations being used, but fall for it when it is seemingly in their favour.

For example, I doubt a single person on DU believes that the press told us the truth about Iraq in the lead up to the war, but most of these same people believe we were told the truth by the SAME PRESS in the lead up to the Kosovo war!

They REFUSE to accept that they have been conned on EVERYTHING, and assume because they caught it once, they have caught it every time.

Look, the first Iraq war was a con. Many if not most people realise that. They know they were lied to about incubators and invasion forces massed on the Saudi border. They also know we were conned about Iraq war 2 and don't believe the lies about WMD and connections with terrorism. Yet for some reason they believe that the same media that lied to them on these two occasions about US geopolitical machinations, suddenly and unexplainably decided to tell the truth in the eight years of the Clinton presidency about the same things.

Where is the sense in that? Because the President at the time was a Dem? A DLC pro-corporate Dem? Why would the press tell the truth about HIS war, and not the two Bush wars? It never occurs to them to ask "WHY?" If it comes from one of ours, it's good, if it comes from one of theirs it's bad, when the reality is, it comes from the corporates and is ALWAYS bad. It is ALWAYS about securing access to resources and markets.

In fact that is the basis of EVERY war, even supposedly religious wars. Taking what doesn't belong to us and making it ours.

I have come to the conclusion that oil was only a minor player in the latest Iraq war. The REAL reason was privatisation. The US puppet "Governing Council" has announced that ALL Iraqi state owned assets EXCEPT oil will be sold off at rock bottom prices.

It's forced globalisation at the point of a "daisy cutter".

[DemExpat]

56. Here in Holland there is Pizza and there is American Pizza......

both delicious, but different. :9

It's a shame the family made you feel so embarrassed for your innocent remark, Sweetheart!

:hi:
DemEx

[bpilgrim]

66. great post

:toast:

if i had to pick a universial theory i would blame it on corporatism - PROFIT over EVERYTHING - which has permeated every nook-and-cranny of our society.

:hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

65. we are lucky to have you Devils Advocate NZ

:toast:

EACH 1 TEACH 1

peace

[treepig]

70. a source for these "facts" please?

As for Indian cinema, who needs to export when your own country has almost a sixth of the worlds population? Same goes for China, except we are talking one third!

[bpilgrim]

64. did you get that off a poster at the american embassy library?

if not, maybe u outta send it in... i hear that is just the kind of 'stuff' they're lookin' for ;->

peace

[bring_em_home_bush]

5. ~

America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
Oscar Wilde

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[denverbill]

10. Yes, lovely.

Someone from Finland, who has posted 158 times on DU, makes these remarks, and Rush touts them like they are representative of all Democrats in the US.

Well, Rush is a fucking liar, so I guess we should expect as much.

[ablbodyed]

61. Attacking the messanger....

for the message is freeper territory. To bemoan the truths that are imbedded in his admittedly angry and (only) occasionally over-stated post is childish. And to worry about freepers invading DU is beside the point.

[zeemike]

12. There is something rotten in America

But it is not its people but the fact that we have been taken over by an oligarchy that controls our media as well as the government.
You see only what they want you to see, and they want you to think that all of this is just the stupidity of the public. It is not, it is a well conceived and organized propaganda campaign designed to make us all, including our friends in the rest of the world, just give up and love Big Brother.

[LeahMira]

51. Media and oligarchy...

But it is not its people but the fact that we have been taken over by an oligarchy that controls our media as well as the government.

I see your point, but why don't most U.S. citizens oppose that media control?

Our Finnish friend is right in that respect... we don't oppose it because we don't realize it is happening, and we don't realize it is happening because we are too content and complacent.

The media tells us what a lot of us want to hear. It's nice to hear that the U.S. is the greatest and that the U.S. citizens are the best.

With internet access, most folks could easily enough read the Guardian, for instance, or the English version of DWE and find out how we are seen in the rest of the world, but not only do most folks not bother, those who do often accuse those publications of being "socialist" and dismiss them offhand.

It's really hard to hear what people really think about you.
(I don't always like it on a personal level myself!)

[Name removed]

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[FlaGranny]

15. I agree with your post,,

but must point out it is not surprising. It used to be that only the "communists" hated us. Then it was the Muslim world. Now it is our friends. We have the * administration and the shallow folks who vote for macho actors to blame for the world's growing hatred of us. It is unfair to blame us all, but it should not be a surprise. It will only get worse, unless we throw all the greedy bastards out of our government. My family has fought in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I have worked all my life, I vote, I pay my bills, I have raised children who are productive members of society, and try to live a good life - a good American - AND I am ashamed of my government.

[RichM]

16. Jacob is much closer to the truth than you are. Your arrogance proves

him right.

One of the many embarrassing Americanisms in your naive diatribe is the idea that Americans took up arms so that Europe "could be free." This, of course, is standard-issue US propaganda. It isn't true at all. The US did what it did in WWII because it had to, & because it clearly was in its own interest to do so. There wasn't nothing altruistic about it.

Jacob is of course completely correct about "the American way of invading and conquering - from the Wild West onwards." It's a tribute to the US propaganda system that this obvious truth eludes most of the people who live here.

[Karenina]

32. It must be the product of the "I, ME, MINE"

American education system and the defensive consumerist plague that so many are unable to critically dissect this sentence:

"Till then many wait, hope and fervently pray to their many Gods that more and more Americans (and it may be your father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, husband, wife, cousin, uncle, aunt, friend, lover) are killed in conflicts they have wrought on the rest of the world in the false name of "Democracy"."

Jacob is NOT "wishing" death onto Americans, he's simply stating a TRUTH. *America's policies have rained death and destruction globally in the "name of democracy." Anyone with a centiliter of sense is painfully aware of that FACT and what a bogus pile of bullshit the WHITE COWBAY HAT is. American foreign policy has showed the world that NO ONE ELSE MATTERS AND Y'ALL (collectively speaking) DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS AS LONG AS YOU HAVE CHEAP GAS.

Many too many Americans cannot even locate another country on a map and think New Mexico is "south of the border." If that level of ignorance is pointed out, they simply don't even give a shit as long as their sattelite dish picks up "Survivor, Jerry Springer" or "MTV."

Karma is a bitch.

[outinforce]

39. Product of "Defensive Consumerist Plague"??

"It must be the product of the "I, ME, MINE" American education system and the defensive consumerist plague that so many are unable to critically dissect this sentence:

"Till then many wait, hope and fervently pray to their many Gods that more and more Americans (and it may be your father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, husband, wife, cousin, uncle, aunt, friend, lover) are killed in conflicts they have wrought on the rest of the world in the false name of "Democracy".""

The "Defensive Consumerist Plague"?? What exactly is THAT? Something your own education system indoctrinated you with?

"Jacob is NOT "wishing" death onto Americans, he's simply stating a TRUTH.

You will excuse me for pointing this out to you, but my own "critical dissection" of Jacob's sentence reveals to me that he is most certainly wishing death upon Americans. He is not stating anything in that sentence except his own wish that Americans die. More and more Americans die.

THAT is little more than pure, unadulterated Hatred.

"*America's policies have rained death and destruction globally in the "name of democracy.""

It is unclear to me whether you mean the policies of George Bush or the policies of all American Presidents. If you mean all American Presidents, then you, too, are blinded by your own personal hatred of the United States. Did Jimmy Carter's policies "rain death and destruction globally"? Or how about Bill Clinton's? "Raining Death and Destruction globally"? Such hyperbole!

"Anyone with a centiliter of sense is painfully aware of that FACT and what a bogus pile of bullshit the WHITE COWBAY HAT is."

I suppose. But I do have a difficult time knowing what it is, exactly, that you are talking about here. White Cowbay Hats? If you are suggesting that the United States always acts in its own interests, I certainly agree. But you will also agree with me, I hope, that every country in the world acts in its own interests.

"Many too many Americans cannot even locate another country on a map and think New Mexico is "south of the border." If that level of ignorance is pointed out, they simply don't even give a shit as long as their sattelite dish picks up "Survivor, Jerry Springer" or "MTV."

It is difficult to determine whether you are upset that all Americans are not quite as smart as you are or that some Americans prefer to entertain themselves in ways that you find too low-brow, or that you simply harbor hatred for America and the people who live here.

Sure, there are lots of Americans who can't locate another country on the map. So? What is your point? That Americans live in a degree of isolation from the rest of the world that is different from someone who lives, say, in Finland? OK, but so what?

I have travelled overseas, and I am always amazed by the lack of knowledge about the United States by people who have never been here. All people -- and not just Americans -- could benefit from a more accurat epicture of people with whom we all share this planet.

Your portrayal of Americans as little more than uneducated, slack-jawed doofuses who care nothing for what is outside our borders and who care only for cheap gas and Jerry Springer, MTV, and Survivor is just about as accurate (and just about as helpful in promoting greater global understanding among people) as saying that all French people are effete cheese-eating snobs who would rather surrender their own country than fight to defend it.

[outinforce]

41. What a News Flash!

America acted in its own interests in WWII!

Stop the presses!

Of course America acted in its own interests in WWII. Was there any country that did not? Is there any country right now that you can identify that is acting contrary to its own interests? Perhaps the Russians were acting contrary to their own interests when President Putin recently said that Russi would NOT be a party to the Kyoro accords? Or perhaps France was acting contrary to its own interests when it said it would block the lifting of sanctions against Lybia unless certain concessions were made.

You will excuse my arrogance and my naivete if I point out to you that if the USA had not entered WWII in Europe when it did, it is rather likely that one of two things would have happened. Either G ermany would have been the triumphant power iun Europe (and many more Jews, gays, and other "undesirables" would have been killed), or Russia woulds have been bled dry.

One other thing that would likely not have happened would have been the Marshall Plan for re-building Europe. Again, clearly it was in America's interests to do it, but had America adopted an isolationist stand (as many propose it do now), Europe would look quite different from what it does today.

[carolinayellowdog]

44. Self-interest and altruism aren't mutually exclusive

Since you've answered RichM, I'll add the point that occurred to me when reading his post yesterday:

>the idea that Americans took up arms so that Europe "could be free." >This, of course, is standard-issue US propaganda. It isn't true at >all. The US did what it did in WWII because it had to, & because it >clearly was in its own interest to do so. There wasn't nothing >altruistic about it.

Altruistic motives and intentions were explicitly articulated here during WWII; the result of US involvement in WWII fulfilled those altruistic intentions. Of course these altruistic motives and intentions were subordinate to self-interest; is there any country in history that has ever sacrificed its own sons in foreign adventures for *purely* altruistic motives? The quoted lines reveal an excluded middle fallacy. If the motives weren't totally white, they must be totally black. No shades of gray allowed.

[RichM]

49. You're the one who claimed the US took up arms "so that Europe could

be free." What you've just written is in effect a recognition that this position is false.

[outinforce]

50. Mea Culpa

Mea Culpa, RichM, Mea Maxima Culpa.

See?

My original point was simply that the net effect -- regardless of the motivations -- of America's entry into World War II was that countries like France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany (and others) are not currently living under a Nazi-like regime. Had America simply remained on ther sidelines and waited until it was attacked and invaded by the Germans, it might have been too late.

Was it in our interests to enter WWI? Of course. Were there people in this country who thought that America, in order to remain free, must come to the aid of freedom-loving and fasciost-hating people in Europe? I bet there were.

Do Americans think that it is in our interests to assist -- militarily if necessary, people who are being oppressed by facists? I would guess that many Americans feel this way.

[Code_Name_D]

58. If this is true...

Then why did America inport a number of Naizs into the US to work on rockets and serve as dubble aginst against the rusians. Bush, Arnold, Perl, & Wolfits apprintly have deep Nasi ties in their famlie history. Prescot Bush was an American Nasi, so fashism wasn't just something we saw in German.

Why were these criminals smuggled into the US?

[iangb]

30. If you looked around....

.....you'd see that large numbers of ordinary people in many countries see the US as the greatest danger to world peace at the moment. (42% of Canadians held that view in March..........and 86% of Germans)

It's possible that they are all misinformed..........it's also possible that they are right.

We see a US military presence in 130 countries, and we tremble at the thought of what you may do next. Sure you've been a force for good............but you've also committed some great evils.

We look to ordinary Americans to reassure us that the US isn't bent on remaking the World in its own image..........at any cost.

[berry]

67. I think you have identified the REAL problem.

If America were not so militarily powerful, it wouldn't matter if many of its citizens know little and care less about the rest of the world. But as long as our military budget is obscenely huge, and our every (almost) decision impacts the rest of the world in ways they can FEEL, this ignorance and hostility toward the rest of the world is a problem.

I think addressing the military power is the most urgent, but the US also is too powerful in economics--controlling flows of capital, etc. through the IMF, WB, etc. and through sheer bullying in trade negotiations. There is some dimunition of influence now as other centers of economic power exert some of their own influence--and of course, international capitalism is not wholly American.

But Americans clearly have more power than is good for any human beings, and they do not understand this. With the amount of power the US currently has, it is silly to argue that Americans are no more ignorant than the people of other nations. The point is, they are too ignorant to be solely in charge of the future of the planet, and they rarely ask for anyone else's opinion.

Actually, the press of every other nation has more American news than the American press has of international news--and partly this is just natural. Other countries have to pay attention to the US--it's a matter of survival. The US *should* pay attention, but it has fingers in every country on earth, and it's hard to know where to focus. The answer is for America to stop being so overwhelmingly powerful--and threatening. The problem is, there are almost no voices calling for this, and I don't know how it would come about.

If Americans are still willing to spend so much on the military--even in hard economic times--what would convince them that the militarization of America is not something to be proud of, but something to fear? Yes, I know there are arguments about stability, and the fear of what would fill the vacuum our demilitarization would cause, but these problems could be addressed. The problem is, nobody with anti-military ideas can be elected in the US. And why is that?

This country is an odd mix of arrogance and fear. Not very mentally healthy, IMO. No wonder the rest of the world is terrified.

BTW, I'm an American, born and raised. But I got my first glimpse of how the rest of the world might view us when I was in the Peace Corps--a salutary experience (I learned a lot about my own country by living abroad and seeing American policy first-hand. US policy is not all bad, but overall it is not-as-advertised. And often disastrous, even when well-meaning. I could go on, but won't.)

[Bridget Burke]

40. Now, now, are you being disingenuous?

Saying "I forget who Finland sided with during the Second World War"? Surely you know they sided with the Nazis. The Finnish flag during that period was a blue swastika on a white background.

I tried to Google that flag but was unsuccessful. However, I did find many images from that great artist, Tom of Finland. (Don't think I'll link them, though.)

[outinforce]

42. Oh, Ms. Burke!

Oh, Ms. Burke, I'm afraid you've caught me!

My feeble attempt at sarcasm did not pass you by. I had indeed thought (but could not verify) that Finland had sided with those wild and wacky Nazis during the Second World War. Those Finns were so good at determining the moral character of other countries, no? And isn't it also the case that the Finns were a bit cozy with the totalitarians who ruled from the Kremlin? Those guys, like the Nazis, seemed rather to enjoy raining death and destruction globally -- as well as within thier own country.

So I'm sure you can see how disgusting it is to hear someone from Finland lecture this country about how America should conduct its foreign policies. Especially when that same person seems to suggest that all good Americans should "get rid of" people who have different political views. And when that same person says that we should all hope and pray that Americans die.

I'm no psychologist, but it does rather seem to me that such a person -- whose hatred for the United States is so intense and so severe, and whose view of the United States is so distorted -- might just be carrying a lot of guilt for his own country's rather sordid past -- a past in which it appears that deals were made with the local bullies so that the people of Finland could live safely, while others took up arms to battle and defeat the bullies.

As for Tom of Finland, what can I say? The man was an artistic genius. In any of the biographies of Tom of Finland that I have read, I note that his work truly b egan to flourish when he came to the horribly backward, terribly uneducated, and culturally deprived United States. Strange, that -- no?

[Art_from_Ark]

59. Finland and World War II

Finland sided with Germany because a few years before, Finland had fought a bitter war against the USSR (after becoming independent from Russia a few years earlier) and lost a significant amount of territory (Karelia).

Here is a brief introduction to that war:

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.html

[Democat]

17. It's the media - we have no voice in the media anymore

The entire U.S. media was promoting Arnold and bashing Democrats, what the hell do you expect people to believe when they are told the same thing 1000's of times a day by every media source they have contact with?

Without some influence over the media, we are not going to win.

[dutchdemocrat]

18. I need to say this... I am in Europe too.

I am living on the other side of the pond. And the rise of blanket hatred of American foreign policy is evident throughout Europe. I hear it in pubs, I hear it from friends, from family, from strangers... my Dutch accent is odd and when I speak English, everyone assumes I am American (I spent most of my youth in Canada).

Whatever goodwill America earned after 9-11 has been eaten away and then some by Bushco and their obvious lies. We sit out here stunned watching America lapping up the spoon-fed Pablum, outraged that it is all so obvious - as our news media points out.

Why?

We don't get Faux here (though we do have Foxkids in the mornings on cable and I won't let my children watch it as it gives them nightmares), we get real news.

And not just from an individual country. Here in Holland on cable, I have BBC 1 and 2, Belgian, and German perspectives on the world.

Bush now trying to muscle NATO and/or the UN into bailing him out is regarded as ridiculous over here. Why should our children go off and fight a war over America's desire to control oil? Why should our coffers be tapped? Bushco scorned the UN, France, Germany, Russia and whoever else that would not walk into the catastrophe his cohorts have concocted for your nation.

Then the Ahnold issue. I think this is what sent Jacob over the edge.

Yes, the Finn is pissed off. I don't agree with everything he said. I certainly don't cheer for the death of any soldiers in Iraq and I am sad that Rush used this for fodder in attacking DU.

He seems to be expressing his outrage in a similar way that many here have been all day... pissed at the fact that the Democrats have failed to secure California.

He also taunts Americans for not 'being sensible'. Well the numbers show quite a few Dems helped push Arnie in and there were Kennedy’s on the fucking stage for Christ’s sake! That's enough to send any idealistic overseas activist into seizures.

He says....

"We do not support "your troops". We have no reason to "support" the actions of gun-toting killers of innocent people. We have no reason to support your vicious troops who use weapons of mass destruction as depleted uranium and cluster bombs on innocent women and children. We do not appreciate the American way of invading and conquering - from the Wild West onwards."

What do you not understand about this statement? This is the many feel over here. We can read, and generally have access to news that is not controlled by corporate behemoths, but by democratic governments - who really have no power to control what is said (see BBC) and are obliged to fund them anyway.

Jacob Matthan, you have raised some serious hell - some of your points I embrace and feel the same way. Cheering the deaths of any human beings, American or from any nation is not acceptable. You pushed the lever too far on this one on that point.

[denverbill]

19. Well, unfortunately, his stupid post didn't help anything at all.

"Yes, the Finn is pissed off. I don't agree with everything he said. I certainly don't cheer for the death of any soldiers in Iraq and I am sad that Rush used this for fodder in attacking DU.

He seems to be expressing his outrage in a similar way that many here have been all day... pissed at the fact that the Democrats have failed to secure California.

He also taunts Americans for not 'being sensible'. Well the numbers show quite a few Dems helped push Arnie in and there were Kennedy’s on the fucking stage for Christ’s sake! That's enough to send any idealistic overseas activist into seizures. "

The most popular talk radio show in America featured his little diatribe and made it sound like every Democrat in America is praying for American soldiers to die. Wow, that's real helpful to liberals in America, isn't it?

I read some of his email dialogue with the American, and what he says about that guy is 100% true. That guy is a typical, obnoxious, ethocentric asshole, and typifies the Republican/conservative element in America.

[dutchdemocrat]

20. Mods missed it.

What can I say? Glad you took the time to read the emails and figure it out. I have stated my points... I am not the enemy. Don't let your anger morph into some warped anti-Euro stance. You are then becoming one of them. Xenophobia does not belong here... but then again, who am I to say? I am not an American.

On the other side... DU's hit count will certainly go up. And then more people will see how sensible the arguements and dialogue are.

Just trying to turn a neg into a pos.

[dutchdemocrat]

21. Maybe you should think about it this way

hes doing for DU what fox did for al franken

[angka]

22. and fo course rush

never points out that this guy is in finland, and remarks that these unfortunate remarks are 'tame' compared to most. this is the first time i've ever seen a post here 'praying' for americans to die. it's totally deplorable, and should be removed by the mods.

thanks, jacob, for helping old limboxy get his straw man arguments together this morning. big help.

[G_j]

25. to be fair

>"this is the first time i've ever seen a post here 'praying' for americans to die. "



this is the statement in question;

"It is in that frame of mind that many around the world (not Muslims, alone) wake up every single morning eagerly hoping to see that more Americans are killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and anywhere else they are spreading their foul hegemony.."

[outinforce]

47. No, THIS is the statement in question

I think you will find this little portion of Jacob's screed to be one of the more noxious things to have appeared on DU recently:

"Till then many wait, hope and fervently pray to their many Gods that more and more Americans (and it may be your father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, husband, wife, cousin, uncle, aunt, friend, lover) are killed in conflicts they have wrought on the rest of the world in the false name of "Democracy"."

I will certainly be among the first to agree with you, G_j, that the statement you pointed to was unpleasant -- certainly the part about the "foul hegemony".

[thom1102]

23. do you guys know your being watched?

Freepers have a link to this thread posted on their site... it's true. I was in another thread that had a link to a freeper thread which had a link to this thread. They hate us as much as we hate them.

[FlaGranny]

26. Well, if they are, maybe they'll get their first

inkling of how we are viewed by the rest of the world. It might open their eyes? Maybe they will see that the world and half of the US is horrified that we can elect a failed businessman/deserter president and actors and wrestlers governors and presidents. ???? Nah!

[DemExpat]

28. Dutch and British media I've seen show amusement but no

surprise or disdain!

They portray it as the epitome of the American Dream - a young, Austrian immigrant making it to the TOP in the States....along with the dubious sides of possible power grabs/corporate power influence and quite simply the not so great performance of Davis.

Only in America........
:kick:

I also think that Europeans realize that the sort of mentality that votes in a Swarzenegger there exists here in Europe too......but the political systems do not accomodate such a happening.

DemEx

[dutchdemocrat]

31. Well we know that Balkenende is a poodle...

The Volkskrant won't give that kind of lapdog coverage for sure. Telegraaf, yes. Holland is under the thumb of the Christian right as well at the moment.

The Germans, Italians, French and Scandi mainstream are more reflective than Holland's mainstream media, I have to admit.

I just caught the news on Telly and have to agree.

[angka]

29. LOCK this thread, please

it doesn't deserve the airtime it got today.

[Trek234]

33. Welcome to free republic

Thank god you're not in charge.

[angka]

34. uh-huh.

hopefully someone with the least amount of political savvy is.

you can wave the bloody shirt all you want to.

[azrak]

45. I learned in history

That the europeans sent all of the really "bad" people to live in America. Committed a crime-go to America or go to prison, can't pay your debts-got to America or go to prison. Outcast is European society go to America.

This country was settled with the independent, non-rule following europeans. The thug blood runs deep. It does in Austrailia too.

Add to that the people in the west, they are the most stubborn of the lot. They walked clear across the country to get away from the governments reach.

So if you haven't been here for a long visit, I would urge you to come and really see what the people are like. Check your attitude at the gate and look around.

[outinforce]

52. I learned something like that, too

I learned something about America being "the wretched refuse" of "teaming shores" -- "huddled masses, yearning to breathe free".

And still they come to this country.

I wonder how much of an issue immigration is in Finland?

[DemExpat]

57. I learned a different story.. of how settlers and immigrants

were the gutsy, free-thinking Europeans who left destitution, a feudal class system, and oppression to make a new life.......

Just a matter of interpretation! :-)

DemEx

[kang]

53. The difference btw Jacob and DutchDemocrat

is that one said they want Americans to die in Iraq. Well that makes me sick. The American soldiers over in Iraq are serving their country which has asked them to try rebuilding Iraq (after destroying much of it with an assist from Hussein's regime). Yes, the democratic system has failed to a certain extent by Bush sitting in office, but that is not these young troops' fault. Iraqi-on-Iraqi homicides and violent crimes are completely out of control and I'm not sure why anybody wouldn't support the troops (whether they be American or otherwise) in their efforts to create a safer Iraq.

My brother was recently in Germany for a conference and he was approached by so many that hate Bush and don't understand why people in America don't hate him too (not just liberals). But the focus is on the administration and people understand that this is how the cookie crumbles when you lose in politics.

Most Americans are politically ignorant and lazy. We don't have the EU or so many neighbors to worry about. We're also rather self-sufficient, powerful economically, and the dominant military force in the world. This all leads to a country that's rather ego-centric...and how many people do you actually like that are like that?

Are we Americans violent? You bet. Save the Revolution, 1812, and the Civil War, our wars are fought in far off places and that tends to soften the impact of the realities of war. We're not Europe. Yes, genocide was committed against the Native American tribes and that history should be taught more to young Americans. But if you're asking why we're so violent it's because it is such a part of this country. We fought for independence, we fought to expand our territories (Mexican War...we did do Louisiana Purchase though). And we fight for values too. We led the Cold War and sealed the victory in both World Wars.

The fact that we're comfortable with violence isn't something that's necessarily bad. There are, after all, a good number of people out there that will not stop until they are stopped w/force. And no offense, but aside from the Brits there isn't a high level of tolerance by European nations for military action even when it's apparent that it is the appropriate choice.

You seem to suggest because liberals here in America have lost political battles of late, we are complicit in the administration's actions. I'm not sure what your point is since we are all working towards changing the current situation. So unless you're advocating one of us gun-toting violent Americans take matters into our own hands, please don't lecture us on what we here on DU already know: WE MUST BEAT BUSH IN 2004. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's worth it.

[kodi]

54. you detect the smell of the rotting corpse of the body politic

let's face it. america appears to have worked. it has given to enough of its citizens sufficient satisfaction that they no longer conceive of the notion of using government to fulfill loftier goals than a full belly.

there is in america sufficient political power wielded by people who think everything is just fine the way it is and are more interested in continuing along the path we are than there is power wielded by people who want change.


we can talk about the journey that people took to be satisfied to the point where they dont want change, but that is merely the process of the manufacturing of consent of the masses. you cant convince a person to work towards a promised land if they conceive that they are
already there.

only cold hard reality constantly beating them about the head will stir them from being comfortably numb.

[zanana]

62. Where are you, Jacob Matthan?

I understand that you are very angry and feeling very frustrated by the actions of our government, but please don't use the Far Right tactic of condemning whole groups of people for the crimes of a few. Also, it would help your argument if you didn't post and run.

[bpilgrim]

63. what scares me

were 'sensible' germans/japanese able to stop the madness of their masters imperial/militiristic designs?

:scared:

peace

[Ronnie]

68. The U.S.

Mr. Matthan is full of paska. (Neither Matthan nor Jacob are good Finnish names.)
The U.S. may have current problems, but we will get over them. This Finn gets to enjoy his nation's insignificance. He and it have no role to play, so they are privileged to sit back and criticize with impunity.
Most of the time, the world has been lucky that there has been a United States. It will be lucky again.
I was born in Helsinki.
(Don't blame Ronnie for this message. I am her husband.)

[Karenina]

69. Another perfect example

of not being able to see the forest for the trees... :shrug: