I think Nader is going to be proven correct

[Bandit]

Things are going to have to get much worse before they can get better. People are brainwashed and braindead at the same time. Until they feel some real pain they are going to go with the masses where ever Fox News tells them to go. I just don't feel that the majority of people are feeling any economic pain as yet. Until that really happens we are going to see more of these ridiculous voting patterns. I hope I'm proven wrong.

[RichM]

1. I agree. That's the long & short of it.

[DemExpat]

2. b-b-b-but if Nader had not run in 2000........Repubs might not have

such a hold on America as they have now......

Gore and Co. might have implemented policies to keep democracy functioning and people more educated and exposed to intelligent viewpoints.....

Who knows?

DemEx

[meegbear]

5. Agreed ...

if anyone shouldn't be commenting in the current state of affairs, it's him.

[cprise]

8. Yeah, right. Like more media deregulation and FTAA

If Gore had gotten into office, it would be like the anti-Clinton media circus X2.

Gore would be impeached in his 2nd year for some incidental or fabricated knowledge about 9-11.

[Paxdora]

11. 9-11 would never have happened...

if Gore had been at the helm instead of the Puppet Chimp!

[Terwilliger]

9. was Nader running in California too?

is that why DEMS had a LANDSLIDE loss?

Dem_ExPat...you know, eventually, whether you want to or not, you're going to have to start looking at the reason you're losing. It ain't Ralph Nader.

[FDRrocks]

3. Agreed.

It cannot be too long now. :(

[mreilly]

4. The question is, how low can they go?

In 2000 after Bush was selected to be Resident, we consoled ourselves by saying "Things are going to get shitty now, and it will show the people what a mistake they made in voting for this idiot."

Then 2002 came and the Rethugs won in Congress, and we said "Now the people are REALLY going to wake up; the Republicans have the White House, the Senate and the House, and it won't be long now before they do such an abysmal job that the voters realize how stupid it is to pick Republicans."

Then the economy got really bad, the Iraq war was proven to be a sham, it was demonstrated that Bush is in bed with Enron, Worldcom, etc. and we figured "Next time the voters go out to pull the lever the GOP is gonna get hit hard."

Then yesterday came and the people showed that they still haven't learned their lesson, that they will still drool and stumble their way into the voting booths to pick the guy they like rather than the guy who can do the job, because they know more about stupid celebrities than about qualified leaders with strategies or ideas.

What's it going to take for the voters to finally kick the GOP out of power? Concentration camps, smog-choked highways and the state-sanctioned beating and looting of all non conservative-Christian homes and businesses?

[LeahMira]

19. History takes note...

What's it going to take for the voters to finally kick the GOP out of power? Concentration camps, smog-choked highways and the state-sanctioned beating and looting of all non conservative-Christian homes and businesses?


What did it take in Germany?

Think about the foundations of this country. Not the documents and not the wise men who wrote them, but the rank and file man on the colonial street. He came here, really at great risk to his life if you think in terms of what the ships were like back then, in order to escape anyone who would tell him what to do.

It would be nice to think that citizens of the U.S. have been somewhat civilized since then, but most haven't. Not only do they want what they want when they want it and the devil to anyone who tries to stand in their way, but they honestly believe that this ability to do as they please is what makes the U.S. the greatest nation in the world.

Feeling really cynical and dis-spirited today.

If I said "hang them all" I'd be accused of being" a Democrat who is lusting for power," but hell... that's just what the Republicans would do to us. Tomorrow, maybe things will look better, but for now...
:hurts:

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. How's that working for them? Paging Dr. Phil

"Not only do they want what they want when they want it and the devil to anyone who tries to stand in their way, but they honestly believe that this ability to do as they please is what makes the U.S. the greatest nation in the World."

Feeling pretty cynical myself, right about now. Yesterday was the kicker for me. :argh:

[madmax]

6. Been thinking the same thing.

Americans won't wake up until they've been screwed blind. Then they'll do something. Personally, I don't care anymore.

[papau]

7. Nazi like Media control (albeit for $ and management approval) means

any change may not be possible by peaceful means.

[jiacinto]

10. Yeah Nader did his part to make sure he is proven correct

nt

[Dhalgren]

12. I know, whay not make that the theme of the '04 campaign!?

"Nader is the devil!! If you vote for the Democrats, we will hunt Nader down and take him captive - just like Osama, Saddam, and any other likely scapegoat we can find!!! Look out!!! Nader is behind that tree!!!!!" Yeah, it could work

[IrateCitizen]

13. Don't joke about that -- Carlos would probably take it up!

At least as a strategy for the primaries. Instead of the best candidate being chosen as the one with the best chance of beating Bush and reversing his policies, we can judge our candidate on who can go after Ralph Nader the hardest! :eyes:

[Paragon]

39. *yawn*

Still wondering why no one takes you seriously?

[Iverson]

14. Hang onto your hats.

I suspect that after the orgy of Nader-bashing and denunciation of Greens generally, we'll be treated to complaints about how the corporate media panders to Republicans moreso than Democrats.

No one will see the connection. Anticipate more "bipartisanship."

Happy witch burning!

[Classical_Liberal]

15. but as bad as things get, it still won't be worth voting third party

unless that candidate is responsible like Arianna and drops if s/he thinks they will be a spoiler. that is the problem.

[jpgray]

16. Well, if we continue to eliminate "undesirables" from Congress...

A Republican majority may well give us no more term limits and massive voter fraud, or virtually a dictator-for-life option for a Republican president. What the Democratic Party is trying to do is hold up the house (maintain its seats) and revitalize itself at the same time. What this does is piss off the base, and bring scavengers and fringe groups to peck at it. These scavangers and fringe groups will get media play the more they attack Democrats, and of course they know it. It's too bad holding on to dilletantes and otherwise worthless representatives is necessary, but it is--the stakes are just too high if you don't want "heightening the contradictions" on your hands. Nader is just an irritant who can't do anything substantial on his own, but he does provide plenty of free press for the GOP in an election. On his own time, he gets some articles on CommonDreams etc. that only his faithful read anyway. He sounds pretty good, but in real terms he has done very little besides getting rich.

[jiacinto]

18. Yep

But among his faithful he can do no wrong.

[Iverson]

21. No need for consumer advocacy.

Among the wilfully blind, he can do no right.

[jpgray]

22. You believe he treated all motor companies fairly there, I assume?

No bias, no quid pro quo to let one off a little? :)

[Iverson]

23. focus, Pinky

Your claim was that he has done little besides get rich.

[jpgray]

25. On the political stage, that is all he's done

He is on TV quite a lot during an election, but despite saying all the right things, he can't seem to get elected. Moreover, the weight of his polemic is usually directed at the Democrats during election days, and is more fairly balanced in the years between. In those between years, the majority of coverage is in leftist magazines. Oh well, if he allowed his workers to unionize he could claim some recent success. :)

[HFishbine]

17. Was just thinking last night

(after a dissapointing municipal primary) that maybe the only way things will ever get better is if we just stepped aside and let the morons make what they will of the world.

I'm tired of arguing about civil rights, environmental protection, militarism and coorporate greed. If these dumb fucks can't turn these things over in their heads enough to get it, maybe they just need to experience the real-world outcome of their stunted "thinking." Maybe some personal pain is the only thing that will convince them they are wrong.

[LeahMira]

20. Some people have to learn the hard way.

I just don't want to have to learn that there's no beating the conservatives.

I'm tired of arguing about civil rights, environmental protection, militarism and coorporate greed. If these dumb fucks can't turn these things over in their heads enough to get it, maybe they just need to experience the real-world outcome of their stunted "thinking." Maybe some personal pain is the only thing that will convince them they are wrong.


I feel that way also. Shall we organize to lead the people who are inevitably going to be most hurt (poor, women, children, unemployed, etc.) to a better place?

What if that place is so great that nothing will do but Bush wants to take that as well?

Really, no one is safe.

[ozone_man]

24. I think that's right too.

In a twisted way, It's sort of a good think Bush is president, because he is a bag holder, not that he didn't contribute to the dismal economic picture. As I see it, things will be getting alot worse in the years ahead. Where that leads is not as clear, but in the near future, I think it results in Bush losing by a landslide.

Who knows in the far future, but we could be headed into a depression, failure of the dollar and bankruptcy of the country. I think that this is when people will finally wake up from the Matrix.

[ramapo]

26. Gore would've been crucified

Two points:

Personal pain is the ONLY thing that will change the direction of this country. Economic, environmental, etc. When it hits the fan then you'll see change. No until then.

If Gore had pulled the election off with a Florida win (even uncontested) , he would've been an even bigger target than Clinton. Just imagine the blame that would've been heaped on him after 9/11. Yes let's assume it still would've happened.

[tom_paine]

27. Oh, you and Ralph have NO IDEA what "much worse" means

do you?

Even if that is true, and some decades from now the dynasty of the Bushes falls (it will fall, as the Caesers, the Vespasian, and the Aurelian lines did), do you really think that it will be overthrown by the Power of the People?

Read your history. Empires almost NEVER go back to being Republics. The Soviet Union, perhaps, was the exception, though I wonder what voting machines Pooty-Poot uses.

People won't wake up en masse until the pain and suffering outweighs the Pravda in people's personal lives (as it did in the Old Soviet Union).

And by then it will be far too late. What else is the (un)PATRIOT Act for?

No, the best chance for ourselves and our descendants was to preserve the Old Republic as long as possible, to try and fix it from within.

But now the Old Republic is gone, and trust me, the Greens will be Gulagged (or destroyed in whatever is the dominant fashion this time around as Totalitarianism Threatens the World) LONG BEFORE you get to do anything. The Busheviks are dying to Gulag all our asses. Just a little while longer, and I think they will be able to do so with impunity.

[IrateCitizen]

28. How then would you explain Holland and England?

The Dutch trading empire circa 1700, and the British Empire of Victorian/Edwardian England were essentially parliamentary governments. Both of them expanded into empires. Then, when the empires imploded, they basically adopted a higher concern about domestic matters and became relatively egalitarian states.

I'm not dismissing your concerns, tom_paine. I'm just saying that there are other historical backdrops out there than ancient Rome. You can read about it in Kevin Phillips' Wealth and Democracy.

[rman]

33. currently Britain and The Netherlands are vassals of the US

Apparently somewhere along the line they became less egalitarian and less concerned about domestic matters.
I live in the netherlands. the current government is right-wing/religious and the policies are a soft version of what the WH is doing, lagging behind a bit.
Blair is obviously very concerned about certain foreign affairs.

[janekat]

38. Oh no - say it't not so! I have relatives over there and always thought

I'd move there to escape the looney right here.

What happened?

[noiretextatique]

30. it's unfortunate...but the american public is braindead

and the few who aren't are outnumbered. it will take a castasprophe to wake up people like the ones who vote for actors and drunken frat boys because of vague notions about "change"...then continue to support these idiots no matter what. until people realize more is a stake than partisanship, of the like that's more appropriate to sports than politics, things CAN ONLY get worse. nader isn't a prophet or a blasmepher...he's just an observer, and not a particularly astute one. it's obvious, for all who care to see it.

[Mairead]

31. It's going to take people like us doing something more productive

than sitting in front of our computers playing an endless round of "Ain't It Awful".

[Bandit]

35. While I agree it will take more action don't think we aren't noticed

People of importance are made aware of things discussed within these forums. We are fulfilling an important function just by creative thinking and fact finding. We can provide a lot of ammunition for the more aggressive among us and some of our bolder politicians. I pat you on the back if you hit the streets and howl at the moon but don't belittle the folks here just because you are unhappy at the moment.

[Cheswick2.0]

32. there is something corrupt and putrid about making a prediction like that

and then trying to make it come true.

[noiretextatique]

34. sadly, the system is corrupt and putrid

and i see his statement more as commentary than prediction.

[mkregel]

36. Leninism pure and simple

which i dont follow...

and even if Lenin is right, then every action precedes an equal reaction in the opposite direction. Not sure I want to see the Repubs go medival, and not sure I want to swing back against them with welders....

[Skittles]

37. NADER CAN FUCK HIMSELF

I AM SO F***ING TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT THAT FUCKWIT NADER

[Paragon]

40. ah, Skittles...

Elevating the discourse, as always.