Clark speeches may be illegal, Dean worker arrested...

[wyldwolf]

Not a good week for the two Dem frontrunners... So, supporter of these (and I am of Clark), research these items to head off any negativity. Both instances seem innocent.

Since retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark announced his candidacy for president, he may have violated federal election laws, the Washington Post reported.

Clark talked about his candidacy for the Democratic nomination for president during paid appearances at DePauw University in Indiana and on other campuses, the Post said.

Campaign finance regulations do not allow candidates to be paid by corporations, labor unions, individuals or even universities for campaign-related events.

The Federal Election Commission considers such paid political appearances as financial contributions to a candidate, however, a candidate could make a speech if he or she did not include campaign positions or talk about opponents.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031008-114243-2674r.htm

Meanwhile, Howard Dean's graffiti scrawler has been nabbed for defacing subway cars in 1999. Blake Lethem, 36, known as "KEO," was hired by the Howard Dean to spray-paint a backdrop at a Bryant Park rally in August.

Lethem's photo had been published when Dean was criticized by City Hall for glorifying graffiti.

Police arrested him at his apartment Monday after matching the photo with a home video showing seven graffiti vandals defacing subway cars in Manhattan.

He was charged with criminal mischief and arraigned in Manhattan criminal court.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/7593.htm

[Cha]

1. What was he thinking? Bad "graffitii artist"!

[RetroLounge]

2. How is this bad news for Dean?

He hired a guy as a contractor to do a job. The fact that this guy got arrested for something he did 5 years ago reflect not at all on Dean.

If you had hired a house painter, and then AFTER the work was done, this guy gets arrested for something he did 5 years prior, how does that reflect upon your choice of house painters?

You're reaching.

Clark should have known better. Dean has no problems with this.

[wyldwolf]

4. It's all in the way you spin it, baby!

And the rightwing will do just that:

I can see it now, "Dean hires vandals to help his campaign."

Mr. Dean, did you KNOW he was a vandal?

No, I thought he was a graffitti artist.

Mr. Dean, don't you know graffitti is a crime?

See?

But you're willing to agree that Clark violated rules when the accounts say he "may" have. Still speculative.

[spindoctor]

47. You rang?

Both Dean and Clark will hold speeches this afternoon in which they will admit to bad behavior. Clark will apologize to all women, and Dean will apologize to all men. Both will promise to be champions for the respective sexes.

Maybe the California recall carried some merrit in showing that the voters are decreasingly interested in unrelated scandals. Wether it is groping women, spray-painting subway cars or (...what crime is it again that Clark committed?), none of them are in the job-description for public offices and are therefore irrelevant.

[w4rma]

73. alleged violatation of federal election laws

:shrug: Note, I don't really care about this issue. Although it is evidence (along with his campaign manager's resignation) that Clark's campaign is amateurish, IMHO.

[spindoctor]

95. Amateurish, sure

But I would be more concerned if it was full-blown professional at this point.

It is too early for the big players to step in (even if rumors from the Clark front suggest otherwise).
At this time, the moths are circling the flames, but are mostly still undecided about which one to burn for.

Personally I think they are all wrong. They are all focussing on collecting Democratic souls, when it is the heart of the silent majority that needs to be won.

[w4rma]

96. "all focusing on collecting..."

spindoctor says:
"Personally I think they are all wrong. They are all focussing on collecting Democratic souls, when it is the heart of the silent majority that needs to be won."

I'm not following you. What would *you* do differently than what the Democratic contendors are doing?

Also, you have to remember that at this point in the campaign, they are trying to attract Democratic volunteers to work for their campaigns. Later on, when more folks are paying attention, they will be campaigning for votes, rather than volunteers.

[spindoctor]

112. To make a short story long

National polls still show Lieberman and Hilary Clinton as the best known Democrats. Although Bush's approval ratings go down, the 'unnamed' democrat is still the only one that actually defeats him.

99% of the people will not volunteer, 95% of the people will not come to meetings, 90% will not bother to investigate the various candidates, 80% doesn't care, 60% doesn't vote and 20% is hardcore Republican.

Those are depressing numbers (luckily I just made them up, so there is room for improvement), but somewhere in there is room to score and to score big.
Candidates need to get their name across to the masses. They need to be found in marsh pits, on Survivor, walking a tight rope across 42nd St., shaking hands with a French Minister, leading a batallion in a South-American revolution, anything that will get them coverage on not C-SPAN. Then when people know how to spell Kucinich, when people know CMB is black, when people realize that Clark is not dating Lois and that Dean's statements are different from the deans list, then it is time to start talking politics.

The majority of the people either has blind faith in politics or no faith at all. That is a sad state of affairs for a democracy. Any serious contestor needs to focus on bringing more people in the game, rather than shuffling the players around. Example: California. Out of 35M Californians, 7M bothered to show up yesterday.
We might get all worked up around here over a Republican take-over, but face it. To 80% of Californians it is just business as usual. They don't care.
Unless somebody comes along that can make 80% of the American people care again, there is no room for a decent victory and no room for change.

One thing is for sure. Unless the people know your name, they are not gonna care about you and much less about your opinions. So yea, if Mr. Dean gets his name sprayed on subway cars, more power to him ;)

I realize that the full blown campaigns have yet to begin. Rather than gathering volunteers, the candidates are collecting donations now. They are focusing on the Democratic community because they have to get through the convention first. But that I feel is the mistake and that I think they should all do different.
If you are big enough, there will be no doubt about who is going to challenge Bush. They are not in it to win the Democratic nomination, they are in it to win the White House and that is how they should campaign.

[w4rma]

116. In general, I agree. However,

what specifically would *you* do differently than what the Democratic contenders are doing?

[w4rma]

9. This is a political arrest, if you ask me. It'll backfire on the GOP in NY

Folks in NY are already weary of Republican political retributions. This just shows that the Republican establisment is coming after the Dean the Democratic outsider.

Also, it's not newsworthy outside of New York so it'll only serve to piss off NYers.

[piece sine]

14. hey..New Yorkers are also weary of graffiti

and Deano likes to pose in front of it. Is Dean pro-graffiti?

[w4rma]

23. Dean is pro-art. Graffiti is art. And graffiti is legal

when it's on a canvas, as Dean commissioned KEO to do for his visit to NY during his Sleepless Summer Tour.

Also, note that KEO's arrest was for an offense committed back in 1999.

[Cha]

29. gawed ...talk about the way people Spin ....man!@

[TLM]

67. Are you from NY... ever been to NY?

Just curious since you seem to feel you can speak for them.

[MODemocrat]

120. It's what you call "grabbing at straws"

We found out just today, that a man who rents a house from my husband and me, is in trouble with a well known company for drawing disability payments illegally for the last two years. Does that make
us liable? Pretty far reach, I'd say! :silly:

[Nicholas_J]

3. There are also massive complaints being made to Yahoo

Against Dean groups using Yahoo to set up their web sites violating its rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

7. I hadn't heard anything about this

To be sure, I don't go looking for dirt on other peoples candidates. I'm not interested in tearing down other democrats like some in here are so delighted to do. Where did you hear about it?

What Yahoo rules could they possibly be violating? I thought Yahoo was pretty wild and free. Do as you like just don't porn or spam. So is it like - Dean does America spam or what?

*get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head* *get image out of head*

[Capn Sunshine]

34. WHAT COMPLETE NONSENSE

why are you guys so desperate?
This does not bode well for your campaign

[Larkspur]

5. Clark's boo-boo is more harmful than a Dean's supporter is to Dean

Clark is the perpetrator in violating FEC rules, and a Dean supporter, not Dean himself, is bagged for a minor offense committed 4 years ago.

Neither incident will stop either campaigns. Clark will pay a fine, if the FEC merits, and Dean will keep campaigning because one Dean supporter's mistake isn't costly to his campaign.

[wyldwolf]

10. At the moment it is speculative. Read the article...

There is no difinitive charge against Clark. This was the writer's opinion, and he uses the word "may" have...

If I wanted to dog Dean on this I would point out that in hiring a graffitti artist, he knowlingly hired someone involved in an illegal activity.

Thus, Dean hires criminals. How many more does he have on staff?

That's how I would spin it if I were Matt Drudge.

[Larkspur]

17. Drudge: Clark commits crime, Dean hires crimminal

How's that for a Drudge headline.

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. Dean EMPLOYEE

where did it say this emplyee was a supporter? just some guy hired to do a job.

[w4rma]

43. Here is the response from the Dean campaign and KEO's response

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

(Note, this post is a copy of my post number #35)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

60. "I try to beautify MY surroundings"

Guess what? They're mine too. If I take offense at visual damage to public property then excuse me. 'Keo' can do whatever he wants, anywhere he wants, EXCEPT for unsolicited and permanent alterations to public property.

[wyldwolf]

65. Watch out! w4rma and gully feel anti-graffitti laws are racist...

... I'm agree 100% with you, so I'm not sure what that makes people like you and me who hate so see unsolicited and permanent alterations to public property.

[w4rma]

81. TLM's post #72

…
Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.

A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#497631

[w4rma]

82. You are so anti-Dean, you're attacking Democratic constituancies, NYfM

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

Guess what? KEO's offense was for an act committed back in 1999. Guess what? KEO's art is shown in art galleries around the world. He uses canvas to present his art.

I *dare* the Kerry campaign to attack artists as you just have, NewYorkerfromMass.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

You are so pro-Dean, you're defending criminals

Keo can show art he's done on canvas. That's great. More power to him. He's an artist and I support that.
But if it's proven that he defaced public property then he can face the consequences. He's a criminal and that I can't support.

[w4rma]

98. Your accusations are baseless and inflamatory, NewYorkerfromMass

It was proven that back in 1999 that KEO was caught on a home video spray painting a subway car. "criminal mischief" was the charge and he was sentenced. I'm not defending that and KEO was likely fined for it.

In 2003 KEO painted a really nice backdrop (from canvas) for Dean's Sleepless Summer Tour visit to New York.

Quit acting like a Republican by trying to paint graffiti artists as vandals. Vandals are vandals. KEO is a world famous graffiti artist whose projects are shown regularly in art museums around the world.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

106. KEO is a world famous graffiti artist (!?)

"KEO is a world famous graffiti artist whose projects are shown regularly in art museums around the world" :eyes:

I doubt it from what I've seen (his "work" is IMHO dated and unoriginal), although I suppose Dean wanted that nostalgic 70's look to capture the spirit of his intern days in the Bronx, (although he "loved" NYC so much he immediately moved to Vermont), but perhaps you can show us the links of all these shows KEO has been in all around the world and shut me up.

[w4rma]

109. LOL!!! Nostalgic 70's look? KEO is only 34. Child artist? (n/t)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

141. Thanks for those links tracking the "artist's" career

and BTW, a "look" can be copied by anyone at any point in time. It happens all the time in art. Although discussing this as "art" is a bit of a stretch IMNSHO.

[gully]

142. Art is and always has been subjective...NT

[gully]

139. Graffiti is not necessarilly done on public property, and at no time

did I defend anyones right to deface your city or vandalize property (period).

Graffiti is a form of art that can be misused. The Dean campaign paid for a back drop to have 'graffiti' portrayed at a rally. No laws were violated at said rally.

[madfloridian]

6. Look at your two sources.

You really should qualify your sources when you use them. Check out the Times ownership. And the Post, isn't that Murdoch?

[wyldwolf]

8. I think you're being sensitive about the sources...

...not everone out there believes those sources to be biased. But the operative thing is - the stories are out there. And thus, they will be spun by enemies of these candidates.

If you would rather not be warned when the mud starts being slung by the press, fine.

But I like knowing ahead of time what the office wingers will be bitching about.

[greyl]

11. fine, but it'd be best if you didn't presuppose the spun headline

and include that in your subject.

re: "Dean Worker" implies that the guy works for Dean in an ongoing fashion. He was really just contracted to do one task in August, right?

[wyldwolf]

12. That is your opinion and you have a right to it...

...I disagree. He was hired by Dean. He is/was a Dean worker.

And the first two lines of the post point out my reasoning for the post.

But, hey! To each his own, right?

I have no control over how your personally interpret things nor do I care.

[madfloridian]

30. Most here do not feel papers owned by Rev Moon are unbiased.

The guy who was arrested was not a "Dean worker", and I am sad you spin things so badly.

Have you followed some of the links from the Times site.

[wyldwolf]

41. Do you even read these threads before you respond?

1. I never said nor implied most here do not feel papers owned by Rev Moon are unbiased. I said, as you would have seen had you read the thread, that not everone out there believes those sources to be biased. And that is true. What does that mean? As I said, the stories are out there to be spun.

2. The stories are being reported in other non-moonie and Murdock sources.

3. Again, I was giving examples of how these stories could be spun. Not spinning them myself. If you spent a little time on the thread - and reading my other posts on the board - you would know this. I am one of DU's biggest Clark supporters. Why would I spin a story against him. And if I were out to get Dean on this story, why would I have included Clark in the thread?

4. The guy arrested was a "Dean worker." He was hired and paid by the Dean campaign to work on a job.

Again, read the thread before you react.

The place is getting more and more reactionary everyday.

[gully]

13. Your comparison is laughable....

What's Dean supposed to hire a PI to check out his 'grafitti artist'?

:eyes:



Somethings are better left unsaid wyld...

Thanks though, I needed a chuckle today ;)

[wyldwolf]

15. Graffitti is illegal...

Did Dean or didn't he know he was a graffitti artist?

Yes?

And besides, as usual, you miss the entire point.

If this becomes an issue with Dean, you'll just act like your typical defensive self on it.

:eyes:

[gully]

18. Grafitti ILLEGAL? On a subway perhaps...

but, for a backdrop it isn't.


Your are funny wyldwolf. You sound a bit like Rush today.

[bushclipper]

20. Graffitti is illegal...

[bushclipper]

21. Graffitti is illegal...

...anywhere it isn't authorized. Subways, alleys, signs, anywhere.

That shows a poor understanding of the law on your part.

But, be that as it may, Dean hired a known graffitti artist and he either knew graffitti was illegal or he didn't.

[wyldwolf]

22. Yep!

But the Rush tactics belong to Gully!

[gully]

25. OMG, he's just lost my vote...

:scared:

If Grafitti is illegal it's a racist law. GO DEAN!!!!

[wyldwolf]

27. ok...

THAT one speaks for itself!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

39. It spoke ignorance to me, I dunno about you.

Grafitti sucks and it is often ugly and I remember the NYC subways having a very hostile feeling about them when you couldn't even look out a window through the paint.
Racist? WTF?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

44. It is typical of gully to be exactly correct

and precise in his logic.

[wyldwolf]

51. So, the fact that graffitti is illegal in NY is racist?

bwahahahahahaha!

Back it up!

[TLM]

72. You are totaly ignorant of the facts as ususal...

Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.


A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.

Now shake your ass back to the boiler room to hammer out your next flame bait post.

[gully]

79. EXACTLY...

;)

[wyldwolf]

108. Not exactly, talk about ignorance of the facts...

Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.

That's like saying robbing a bank isn't against the law... theft is against the law, regardless of how it it done...

A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.

bwahahahahahaha...

New York City Executive Order No. 24--July 11. 1995

WHEREAS, the damage caused by graffiti-related vandalism depreciates the value of the property it defaces and costs the City and property owners millions of dollars in clean-up expenses each year; and

WHEREAS, in recent years graffiti "tags" have become a means of communication for drug dealers and gangs; and

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/executiveorder.html


New York City Graffiti Laws

§ 10-117. Defacement of property, possession, sale and display of aerosol spray paint cans, broad tipped markers and etching acid prohibited in certain instances.

a. No person shall write, paint or draw any inscription, figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation, the city of New York or any agency or instrumentality thereof or by any person, firm, or corporation, or any personal property maintained
on a city street or other city-owned property pursuant to a franchise, concession or revocable consent granted by the city, unless the express permission of the owner or operator of the property has been obtained.

Title 10 § 117.1 establishes an Anti-Graffiti Task Force that assesses the scope and nature of the City's graffiti problem, examines the effectiveness of existing provisions of law aimed at curbing graffiti vandalism and proposes amendments to strengthen such legislation. Furthermore, the Task Force reviews current law enforcement activity and suggests ways to augment enforcement capability, identifies existing anti-graffiti programs in the City, surveys the efforts of other jurisdictions to combat graffiti and considers the replication of such programs in New York City, and proposes a comprehensive anti-graffiti program.

Title 10 § 117.2 of the New York City Administrative Law Code allows the Mayor to offer and pay a reward, not exceeding $500, to any person who provides information leading to the apprehension, persecution or conviction of any person who vandalizes property.

more?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/legislation.html

Now shake your ass back to that rock you've been living under!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

88. Ignorant?

Graffiti is vandalism. Whether it is on a subway or the side of a building. It is not racist in any way to make it illegal. It is vandalism.

See if you can hammer your mind around that.

[w4rma]

90. Graffiti on an art canvas is vandalism?

A graffiti art exhibit in an art gallery is illegal?

Tell me again that laws against graffiti wouldn't be racist or even unconstitutional (violating our freedom of speech). Laws against defacement of property, no matter how they are defaced, are what are on the books.

Like I said, before. I *dare* the Kerry campaign to attack artists as you are, NYfM.

[VermontDem2004]

91. It seems like you missed the point of his post

He said Graffiti is not illegal but defacing property without permission is illegal regardless of how it is done. I got a bad example, you can apply paint on houses but you can't apply paint on houses that isn't yours or houses in which you don't have permission to paint on.

[wyldwolf]

107. God, talk about ignorance... graffiti is illegal in NY and here is proof..

Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.

That's like saying robbing a bank isn't against the law... theft is against the law, regardless of how it it done...

A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.

bwahahahahahaha...

New York City Executive Order No. 24--July 11. 1995

WHEREAS, the damage caused by graffiti-related vandalism depreciates the value of the property it defaces and costs the City and property owners millions of dollars in clean-up expenses each year; and

WHEREAS, in recent years graffiti "tags" have become a means of communication for drug dealers and gangs; and

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/executiveorder.html


New York City Graffiti Laws

§ 10-117. Defacement of property, possession, sale and display of aerosol spray paint cans, broad tipped markers and etching acid prohibited in certain instances.

a. No person shall write, paint or draw any inscription, figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation, the city of New York or any agency or instrumentality thereof or by any person, firm, or corporation, or any personal property maintained
on a city street or other city-owned property pursuant to a franchise, concession or revocable consent granted by the city, unless the express permission of the owner or operator of the property has been obtained.

Title 10 § 117.1 establishes an Anti-Graffiti Task Force that assesses the scope and nature of the City's graffiti problem, examines the effectiveness of existing provisions of law aimed at curbing graffiti vandalism and proposes amendments to strengthen such legislation. Furthermore, the Task Force reviews current law enforcement activity and suggests ways to augment enforcement capability, identifies existing anti-graffiti programs in the City, surveys the efforts of other jurisdictions to combat graffiti and considers the replication of such programs in New York City, and proposes a comprehensive anti-graffiti program.

Title 10 § 117.2 of the New York City Administrative Law Code allows the Mayor to offer and pay a reward, not exceeding $500, to any person who provides information leading to the apprehension, persecution or conviction of any person who vandalizes property.

more?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/legislation.html

Now shake your ass back to that rock you've been living under!

[VermontDem2004]

135. You proved his point!!!!

Defacement of property, possession, sale and display of aerosol spray paint cans, broad tipped markers and etching acid prohibited in certain instances.

He said defacing property is illegal no matter how it is done, DEC or whatever the hell his name his put graffiti on the wall at Dean's speech but didn't get charged for it, no he got charged for defacing property 4 years ago. I can put as much graffiti as I want on my own house if I wanted too and not get arrested for it. If I put graffiti on the walls of my local school and get caught, I will get arrested.

figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation

[gully]

140. You seem to have missed a key phrase...

"Graffiti related VANDALISM" is against the law. Graffiti (the art form) is NOT.

"a. No person shall write, paint or draw any inscription, figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation, the city of New York or any agency or instrumentality thereof or by any person, firm, or corporation, or any personal property maintained
on a city street or other city-owned property pursuant to a franchise, concession or revocable consent granted by the city, unless the express permission of the owner or operator of the property has been obtained."

[bushclipper]

145. I don't see that as relevant...

The parts that were quoted define grafitti, and confirm it's unlawfullness.

Breaking and entering is also illegal, but if the owner of an establishment gives you permission, it is no longer illegal.

The artist in question committed an illegal act in 1999 by illegally spraypainting public property. And that is the point of the thread.

[gully]

147. And he committed a 'legal' act when he worked for Dean...

:shrug:

Graffiti is not illegal in and of itself. Vandilism is... What's so hard for people to grasp about that?

Vandalism according to dictionary.com "Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property."

Vandalism using Graffiti or any other means is illegal. I don't disagree with that, never did.

[gully]

80. Thanks w4rma...

Oh, and...Gully is a she... shhhhhh ;)

[w4rma]

83. you're welcome, ma'am

;)

[ldf]

87. definition - merrian-webster online

One entry found for graffito.


Main Entry: graf·fi·to
Pronunciation: gr&-'fE-(")tO, gra-, grä-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural graf·fi·ti /-(")tE/
Etymology: Italian, incised inscription, from graffiare to scratch, probably from grafio stylus, from Latin graphium
Date: 1851

: an inscription or drawing made on some public surface (as a rock or wall); also : a message or slogan written as or as if as a graffito
- graf·fi·tist /-'fE-tist/ noun

personal opinion:

i think when it is on canvas it is art. anywhere else, it is an illegal act, and i, a new yorker, do NOT like seeing it everywhere.

besides, the "artistic" graffiti is an extremely small percentage of the crap that is out there.

back when the dean people hired him for the job, i thought it was a bad idea.

however, i am still a deanie boomer. it is going to take more than something like that to turn me off. the pukes will use anything and everything against dean. that just goes to show how afraid of him they are.

[wyldwolf]

110. The city of New York's definition...

New York City Executive Order No. 24--July 11. 1995

WHEREAS, the damage caused by graffiti-related vandalism depreciates the value of the property it defaces and costs the City and property owners millions of dollars in clean-up expenses each year; and

WHEREAS, in recent years graffiti "tags" have become a means of communication for drug dealers and gangs; and

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/executiveorder.html


New York City Graffiti Laws

§ 10-117. Defacement of property, possession, sale and display of aerosol spray paint cans, broad tipped markers and etching acid prohibited in certain instances.

a. No person shall write, paint or draw any inscription, figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation, the city of New York or any agency or instrumentality thereof or by any person, firm, or corporation, or any personal property maintained
on a city street or other city-owned property pursuant to a franchise, concession or revocable consent granted by the city, unless the express permission of the owner or operator of the property has been obtained.

Title 10 § 117.1 establishes an Anti-Graffiti Task Force that assesses the scope and nature of the City's graffiti problem, examines the effectiveness of existing provisions of law aimed at curbing graffiti vandalism and proposes amendments to strengthen such legislation. Furthermore, the Task Force reviews current law enforcement activity and suggests ways to augment enforcement capability, identifies existing anti-graffiti programs in the City, surveys the efforts of other jurisdictions to combat graffiti and considers the replication of such programs in New York City, and proposes a comprehensive anti-graffiti program.

Title 10 § 117.2 of the New York City Administrative Law Code allows the Mayor to offer and pay a reward, not exceeding $500, to any person who provides information leading to the apprehension, persecution or conviction of any person who vandalizes property.

more?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/legislation.html

[gully]

143. Here's the definition I have...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=graffiti

"A drawing or inscription made on a wall or other surface, usually so as to be seen by the public. Often used in the plural."

And, once again it's not ILLEGAL unless you don't have permission from and/or are not the owner of said 'wall or other surface.'

[bitchkitty]

102. Thank you -

I've been really depressed over California today, and your silliness is making me smile.

If this is the best the anti-Dean people can do, then he's sitting in the catbird seat!

[Toucano]

16. The real criminals

are in the Bush White House. The Dean-Lethem story means nothing. It simply cannot even be spun into anything.

Clark story isn't a problem until the FEC says it is a problem.
1. Speeches were made prior to papers being filed for candidacy (may not matter).

2. There is no evidence the payment was actually made. "...sources familiar with his arrangements" may not know details. Maybe the check was never cashed?

If it was, and if the FEC says it is a violation, Clark will take care of it and move on. It is simply too soon to convict with the evidence we have.

[Cha]

31. Thank you, Dralston!

May cooler heads prevail and stop the Spinning dead in its tracks!

[bushclipper]

19. Thanks for this, wyldwolf...

... there is going to be a lot of muckraking to come and I want to know the stories before the spin begins!

[SeattleRob]

24. Thanks for the Rove Spin Points

Look at the news sources: The Moonie Times and Murdoch's Bird Cage Liner....

[wyldwolf]

26. SeattleRob, do you even read a whole thread before reponding?

From the beginning: So, supporter of these (and I am of Clark), research these items to head off any negativity. Both instances seem innocent.

..and, a clarification:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=496263&mesg_id=496415&page=

[kiahzero]

37. I'm a Clark supporter but...

the Clark story was a Washington Post story. The Times just covered that the Post was covering it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58717-2003Oct7.html

[gottaB]

28. Peace, Love, and Linux--a lesson in PR

IMO, Dean should issue a clear statement on graffiti, because even though his campaign didn't hire anybody to do anything illegal or wrong, it is an emotional symbolic issue for some urban dwellers. Don't let the spin get out of hand!

Remember IBM's Peace, Love and Linux campaign? IIRC they got busted in S.F. and had to pay some fines for defacing public property or some such. Some people were resentful that IBM did not apologize, or did not seem to regard it as a real problem. There was some controversy over whether the "defacements" were permenant, or whether IBM intended them to be. Whatever. In the final analysis the PR stunt generated more negative publicity than buzz.

Alternatively, Dean could launch a vigorous defense of graffiti art and of his loyal supporters. That would be gutsy, but it would let him define the middle ground, and perhaps even suggest ways of (1) giving young people legitimate creative outlets, and (2) cutting down on vandalism at the same time. Somehow, I don't think that's an issue he wants to get into--but who knows?

Anyway, he should not let it pass without comment. The NY Post story is small potatoes, but the IBM case shows how this kind of thing can really backfire.

[w4rma]

32. Gov. Dean's campaign has already responded

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

[gully]

33. You mean the art galleries are BREAKING THE LAW!

"Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world."

What is this world coming to? *gasp*

~Like I said racist, Limbaugh-nian, classist, CRAP!~

Oh and...GO DEAN!!!

[w4rma]

35. LOL!!! (n/t)

[gottaB]

103. Damn straight!

Sorry, I hadn't seen that when I posted. The Dean campaign is really on the ball. And Keo, yeah, that's telling 'em.

[goforit]

36. Woha!!!! .....Wyld wolf!!! Nice change in story!!!!...Propaganda you're

hobby????

"was hired by the Howard Dean to spray-paint a backdrop at a Bryant Park rally in August."

The story does not say "Howard Dean" it says a "the Presidential Wannabe"
This could be Kerry, Gepthart, or George W.

Nice try.

[wyldwolf]

46. Oh, golly gee! You got me.... NOT

Notice the line "Lethem's photo had been published when Dean was sandblasted by City Hall for glorifying graffiti."

And notice this headline:

Candidate Dean's graffiti 'artist' charged in '99 subway vandalism

http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1065631501118240.xml

Why do Deanies throw that word "propaganda" around so much?

And that was a very stupid attempt at saying it could have been anyone.

:eyes:

[w4rma]

50. Because our opponents use alot of propaganda

So we call the Republicans out on it, unlike some other less able campaigns.

[wyldwolf]

52. did you just call me a republican?

[w4rma]

55. No. One does not have to be a GOPer to distribute Republican propaganda.

Graffiti Backdrop at Dean Rally Irks a Republican
…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

[wyldwolf]

61. So let me get this straight...

...the posting of any potentially negative story on any candidate, with warnings on how it can be spun, is spreading republican propaganda?

Sounds like you're sensitive to anything remotely negative on Dean.

Notice how the Clark supporters here are attacking the story but the Dean supporters are attacking the messenger.

[TLM]

74. Because in this case the messenger is the one doing the spinning

not the story.

NEXT?

[davidinalameda]

38. I'm confused

"Campaign finance regulations do not allow candidates to be paid by corporations, labor unions, individuals or even universities for campaign-related events."

how was mentioning his campaign construed to be a campaign related event?

most REASONABLE people would agree that a paid speech probably isn't a campaign related event

[Pastiche423]

49. Did you read the article?

The FEC has rules you must abide by if you want to run for the presidency.

clark did not abide by the rules.

Simple.

[Toucano]

56. "MAY have violated"

It doesn't seem the FEC is made any statement yet. This story only exists as a Washington Post theory.

Theories can be proven right, of course. But it is too soon to call it fact.

[Pastiche423]

75. The "theory" can be proven

"right", if he gives back the money.

[pruner]

45. this guy is not a "Dean worker"

he's someone that Dean hired for a single job… which is in no way connected to what the guy was arrested for (aside from the possibly partisan motive of the cops).

FYI, Blake Lethem (aka KEO) is the brother of NY Times best-selling author Jonathon Lethem.

[wyldwolf]

48. If you are hired by someone, you become their worker...

...he was hired by Dean for a job. He was a worker.

[w4rma]

54. The most precise term is independent contractor. But, if KEO was a paid

staffer or a regular employee of the Dean campaign, I'd think that was just great. He sounds like a really smart, witty and able guy.

Independent Contractor Definition

independent contractor definition – an independent contractor is one who is hired to complete a specific project but who is free to do that work as he or she wishes; an independent contractor is not an employee, thus cannot sue an employer for a wrongful act or injury suffered on the job.
http://www.legal-definitions.com/employment-definitions/independent-contractor.htm

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

[wyldwolf]

57. worker...

worker: One who works at a particular occupation or activity

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

His activity was the graffitti. He was paid. He was/is a worker.

[w4rma]

59. If you want to call him a worker, that's fine with me. KEO sounds like a

cool and straight up guy that I'd be happy to associate with my candidate of choice.

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

[wyldwolf]

62. So when will you share your theory with us that laws against graffitti...

...are racist?

[w4rma]

70. Hah, I win. You changed the subject.

Note, I don't know if some laws against graffiti are racist, I haven't researched that.

on edit, TLM says in post #72:
…
Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.

A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#497631

[TLM]

76. Once again... I've already answered this for you.

A law which targets the style in which minoity and urban youth deface property, rather than the general act of defacing property by any means, is spcificaly targeting a particular racial/economic group.

Basicaly it would mean there is a different set of rules for the urban minority kids.

[wyldwolf]

113. but again, you were wrong...

Graffiti is not against the law... defacing property is against the law, regardless of how it is done.

That's like saying robbing a bank isn't against the law... theft is against the law, regardless of how it it done...

A law which specified a particular style of art associated with urban youth in minority communities, like graffiti, would be racist because it is not targeting the act of defacing property but the style in which is it done.

bwahahahahahaha...

New York City Executive Order No. 24--July 11. 1995

WHEREAS, the damage caused by graffiti-related vandalism depreciates the value of the property it defaces and costs the City and property owners millions of dollars in clean-up expenses each year; and

WHEREAS, in recent years graffiti "tags" have become a means of communication for drug dealers and gangs; and

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/executiveorder.html


New York City Graffiti Laws

§ 10-117. Defacement of property, possession, sale and display of aerosol spray paint cans, broad tipped markers and etching acid prohibited in certain instances.

a. No person shall write, paint or draw any inscription, figure or mark of any type on any public or private building or other structure or any other real or personal property owned, operated or maintained by a public benefit corporation, the city of New York or any agency or instrumentality thereof or by any person, firm, or corporation, or any personal property maintained
on a city street or other city-owned property pursuant to a franchise, concession or revocable consent granted by the city, unless the express permission of the owner or operator of the property has been obtained.

Title 10 § 117.1 establishes an Anti-Graffiti Task Force that assesses the scope and nature of the City's graffiti problem, examines the effectiveness of existing provisions of law aimed at curbing graffiti vandalism and proposes amendments to strengthen such legislation. Furthermore, the Task Force reviews current law enforcement activity and suggests ways to augment enforcement capability, identifies existing anti-graffiti programs in the City, surveys the efforts of other jurisdictions to combat graffiti and considers the replication of such programs in New York City, and proposes a comprehensive anti-graffiti program.

Title 10 § 117.2 of the New York City Administrative Law Code allows the Mayor to offer and pay a reward, not exceeding $500, to any person who provides information leading to the apprehension, persecution or conviction of any person who vandalizes property.

more?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nograffiti/html/legislation.html

[Aleesha]

53. Is this all they got????

Fucking filthy repubs are clawing for dirt and finding piddly shit!! There has been a very serious breach of security in the Bush administration, and this is the only shit the repubs and the media can come up with? I hope Joe Wilson rips Bush into, heard on the news yesterday that Wilson stated he will be campaigning against Bush. This is going to get nasty, and Wilson is more than ready for it!!

[wyldwolf]

58. No, they have a lot more...

..but are saving it. Every upper tier candidate will get put through the fire.

It starts out petty. Remember the "big" story on John Edwards chewing gum at a meeting?

Then, they'll pull out what they think are the big stories.

I get a heads up on them a lot.

Notice how the Clark supporters are attacking the story. Notice how the Dean supporters are attacking the messenger (me.)

Oh, well!

[w4rma]

64. I wasn't attacking you before, but I will now: You're full of it, wyldwof

"Notice how the Dean supporters are attacking the messenger (me.)"

Let me show you that you are full of it by reposting the Dean campaign's response to the earlier Republicans' attack on KEO and Dean:

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

[wyldwolf]

68. Yeah, I know... but who is really full of it? RE: Your "racist" comment..

[w4rma]

71. You are. Whatever comment you're talking about wasn't one of mine. (n/t)

[wyldwolf]

114. Yes it was... gully said laws against graffiti was racist and you said ...

...he was correct.

[w4rma]

115. I'm not going to repeat the personal attack from you that I was defending

gully about

Your post number 42 has been deleted, with good reason, wyldwolf.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=496263#497344

[wyldwolf]

121. Fine, I'll give a run down of the discussion

gully: ILLEGAL? On a subway perhaps...
wyldwolf: graffitti is illegal...
gully: If Grafitti is illegal it's a racist law. GO DEAN!!!!
wyldwolf: THAT one speaks for itself!
NewYorkerFromMass: It spoke ignorance to me, I dunno about you.

Grafitti sucks and it is often ugly and I remember the NYC subways having a very hostile feeling about them when you couldn't even look out a window through the paint.
Racist? WTF?

wyldwolf: deleted message that strongly questioned gully's logic above.
w4rma: It is typical of gully to be exactly correct and precise in his logic.

So, you were agreeing with Gully that graffiti is only illegal on the subway, if graffiti is illegal, it is a racist law.

[w4rma]

122. Graffiti is a style of art. It is legal

if it is not defacing someone else's property.

Do you disagree?

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about whether or not illegalizing a style of art is racist.

[wyldwolf]

126. I agree with that premise, sure, but that wasn't the point..

...from the time gully entered the thread, his/her position was that grafitti WAS NOT illegal accept maybe on the subway. And if it is, it is a racist law.

What the artist did in 1999 was illegal. And he was correctly busted for it.

I really don't give a rat's ass if you think grafitti laws are racist or not. Fortunately, I try not to use the race card.

In this instance, the use of race really came across as a desperate means to make a point.

[w4rma]

127. Fine. You agree with the only point I care about.

The rest of that, IMHO, is just nit picking at some imprecise language which was used in trying to explain the premise that you say you agree with.

[VermontDem2004]

134. You like to misread other people's posts don't you?

Gully said this

ILLEGAL on a Subway perhaps.
-----------------------------
but, for a backdrop it isn't.

I agree with, I could put graffiti on my own house right now and wouldn't get arrested for it, I put graffiti on someone's elses house and I just did something illegal, I defaced someone elses property. Interesting how every post talks about one hiring Dean made and that person Dean hired commited a crime 4 years ago but no one talks about the alleged crime Clark committed a few days ago or weeks, months whatever.

[FubarFly]

124. Are you being this obtuse on purpose?

Or is your reading comprehension really that poor?

I'm guessing the former. If your intention was to distract from Clark's transgressions by riling up Dean supporters, then it's not working.

Note: Dean has already issued a valid response for the negative article against his campaign.

I'm still waiting for Clark's reply.

[Pastiche423]

69. I am a Dean supporter

I did not attack the messenger.

You best watch that broad brush.

[VermontDem2004]

78. They had a much bigger story on Edwards

After the 1st Fund raising quarter Edwards may have had over $2000 dollar donors, but I have no idea how the investigation went, since we haven't hear about it I guess nothing arose.

[TLM]

63. Petty, lame... and sadly typical

Clark may be facing some serious trouble for major violations of campaign law... so as usual the Clark corps have to find something, anything, to attack Dean.

Now it is that he hired a guy who 4 years ago got busted for tagging?


Big fucking deal?


You think is we searched through all the folks working for Clark we couldn't find someone with a more serious crime in their past... like oh I don't know murdering civilians and journalists? Oh wait, that was Clark himself.

Dean hired an artist to paint a urban graffiti style backdrop for his NY appearance, and surprise the really good graffiti artists had done some graffiti in his past. Amazing.

Next thing you know you'll be telling us how the guy Dean hired as a driver once got a speeding ticket back in 1986.

Oh the horror.

[Adjoran]

66. Clark has a real problem

if he doesn't cancel his remaining speeches for pay. The rule is that a candidate may NOT accept money for making a political speech. It is possible to make a paid speech while a candidate, but one must be careful not to talk about the campaign, campaign issues, or political opponents.

For a guy running for President, that is almost impossible to accomplish, which is why they all stop doing paid speeches while running.

This won't be a problem if he stops now. Chalk it up to his lack of political experience, and move on. BUT - If he stubbornly proceeds with the paid schedule, a lot of eyes will be watching closely. It isn't worth the risk. I hope he listens to his advisers on this one.

The Dean flap isn't as serious. If it were a staffer on salary, it would be worse, but this guy was hired to paint a backdrop. It is hard to hold Dean responsible for what the guy did five years earlier, for which he was not even charged until AFTER he did his "art" thing for Dean.

[VermontDem2004]

77. Hahaha

Clark may have violated FEC Rules which is a very very serious crime, Dean hires someone who was guilty of a minor crime 4 years ago? Dean didn't do anything illegal plus he wasn't even charged till after he done the work in Bryant Park so I don't know how Dean can be critized for this, Clark may have done something illegal.

[theboss]

84. Two thoughts

1. This is really stupid of Clark. I've been a tentative Clark supporter, but his campaign is clearly being run by amateurs. I am losing confidence in him to do anything right.

2. Why is Dean hiring graffiti artists in the first place? Is he Grandmaster Flash? Is he going to star in Breakin' III: Presidential Bugaloo? He's a white guy from Vermont. He just looks ridiculous when he does stuff like this and naming a 'Clef song as his favorite.

[w4rma]

86. Dean and KEO's response to the GOP should give you insight

…
But Eric Schmeltzer, a spokesman for the Dean campaign in New York, said it is the Republicans who have outdated views, particularly of graffiti works, which have been shown in galleries around the world.

"Lots of people who want to say these are thugs and gangsters don't know what's going on in urban America," Mr. Schmeltzer said.

And Keo, also known as Blake Lethem, 36, rejected being tagged as a vandal. "The vandals were an ancient tribe that used to run through countries, plundering and pillaging," he said. "I don't do that. That's what the Republicans are doing. I try to beautify my surroundings. I may fall short of that goal, but at least I'm trying."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/politics/campaigns/29GRAF.html?ex=1065758400&en=56b8eeccc816ba07&ei=5070

Note, that that "white guy from Vermont" drew about 10,000 New Yorke Dean supporters to this appearance. Obviously, *they* don't think he "looks ridiculous".

[theboss]

89. I consider myself hip . . .

. . . and I think it's hideous art. Dean looks like he walked into a FUBU ad on his way to the Yale Club.

[w4rma]

92. So? I fail to see your point.

You aren't big on graffiti. I'm not big on abstractionalism.

Who cares. Some folks like it. Other folks don't. That's art.

[theboss]

93. Okay . . it strikes me as pandering

And sloppy pandering at that. The one part of the Democratic base Dean has failed to energize at all are black voters. So . . he decides to go all hip-hop. It's too Bulworth for my tastes.

Having said that, he didn't break any laws. Clark, on the other hand, may be paddling in shit creek. This law seems pretty obvious and makes perfect sense. You should not benefit financially from your campaign.

[w4rma]

97. pandering is what political opponents call it when politicians

are trying to successfully connect with a constituency. I hope that all the Democratic politicians do lots of pandering and connecting with lots of different constituencies.

Here is some more of Gov. Dean's pandering ;):

Guest Writer: Jerome Wiley Segovia, Latinos for Dean

My friend Pat Johnson with DC for Dean recently told me he was going to be volunteering in Burlington, Vermont. I jumped at the chance to join him and see what campaign headquarters was like. Well, its an amazing place, equal parts political memorabilia, excitement and incredibly likeable people. The best part is that I get a chance to give a quick report on a project which has taken all my free time for the past several months, Latinos For Dean.

Latinos for Dean is comprised of Latinos, friends of Latinos, people who speak Spanish and other Dean supporters who have self-organized and are striving to build an organization of 10,000 volunteers nationwide by the end of the primary season.

We have celebrated Dean's early endorsement of the Immigrant Workers Freedom Ride, only to be followed by his announcement that he's become the first presidential candidate this primary season to air ads in Spanish in New Mexico.

One of our main goals is to continually devise creative ways to reach our Latino audience, who in some cases do not speak perfect English, in other cases have felt ignored by politicians, and so they are tuned out. These include such events as co-hosting a Paraguayan "asado" in the DC area and an upcoming "see you at the ball game" outreach event at RFK stadium (soccer, this time!), supporting the IWFR in Minnesota, Texas, and other cities, and speaking about Governor Dean in Spanish on AM radio in Maryland. We're beginning to make inroads and effectively reach our communities in their own language, en nuestro idioma.

We also have recently become aware of DeanSpace, which is an excellent set of programming/design web tools for self-organizing groups such as ours that rely on limited volunteer help. Should you visit our site in the near future, you will begin seeing the improvements as we begin implementing this technology.

Recuperemos nuestro país apoyando a Howard Dean!

Jerome Wiley Segovia
NE Regional Coordinator
Latinos For Dean

Posted by Guest Writer at 06:05 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001738.html

[Democat]

85. Arnold can rape babies without anyone caring

But these technicalities by Democrats will be huge news stories between now and election day 2004.

Because we don't have any influence in the media.

[Cocoa]

94. Dean fails my no-graffiti litmus test

I can no longer support this soft-on-vandalism Dean in good conscience.

What's he going to do when he gets in office, tee-pee the whole country?

[rucky]

99. Crap...he has my address

My bed's gonna get short-sheeted fer shur.

:scared:

[bitchkitty]

100. Actually,

I think that the assumption that this graffiti person will hurt Dean is kind of lame. My personal opinion is that they should lay off Clark for this supposed violation of campaign finance. It seems fairly innocent to me, and compared to GOP strategy, harmless.

[AWD]

101. Hypocrisy, thy name is wyldwolf

A man Dean hired to do grafitti was arrested in 1999. Since he was arrested for vandalism in 1999, he is forever labeled a vandal to you. Nothing will ever change that, apparently.

Wes Clark publicly praised Republicans and raised money for Republicans more recently than 1999. But somehow, that little factoid does not permanently make him a Republican shill. He escapes that label in your eyes.

Hypocrisy at its' finest.

[diplomats]

104. That Clark story's in the Wash. Times, not the Wash. Post

but it's good to be prepared, as you say.

[Toucano]

111. Times is repeating what was reported in the Post

"WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 (UPI) -- Since retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark announced his candidacy for president, he may have violated federal election laws, the Washington Post reported. "

The story originated in the Washington Post. Not that it really makes a big difference.

[Pastiche423]

105. I nominate wyldwolf

for the Spin Award of the day!



Good job!

[bushclipper]

117. wow! some of you are pretty dopey...

..here is a rabid Clark supporter who posts not only a negative story on clark but also on dean.

he warns all that these stories are out there and to be prepared for the negative spin.

challenged by some very reactionary people, he demonstrates how it can spun.

the thread then veers off some pretty odd directions like "grafitti isn't illegal" (it is) "graffiti laws are racist" (they're not), the artist didn't work for dean (he did) etc.

and then he's accused of using "propaganda," "Rove talking points" etc., by mostly Dean people. Oddly, the Clark people for the most part addressed the issues and not the poster. They got it.

I have not been posting here long but I've lurked a good long while.

I'm leaning Kucinich but if a candidate's supporters were any indication of what a candidate is, some of Dean's supporters would place Dean solidly dead last on my list now.

I'm in total agreement now with Josh Marshall of Talkingpoint memo:

There is an awfully distressing tendency among a minority of Dean supporters to serve up no end of lacerating comments about other candidates and then to react with a sort of stunned and outraged shock when anyone criticizes their guy.

[w4rma]

118. You missed wyldwolf's personal attack on gully in post #42

You also skipped over a bunch of stuff from Kerry and Clark supporters that slanders legitamate artists. Graffiti is a style of art, just like abstractionism or realism.

Alot of graffiti artists practice their art illegally. KEO did back in 1999. He no longer does that. Now he works on canvas and has his pieces shown in museums.

[bushclipper]

123. gully and wyldwolf go way back it seems...

...and gully gives as good as he gets. No, I didn't miss the "personal attack."

If you'll notice post #18, gully started the personal attacking.

Graffiti is a type of art, yes, but no one has the right to place it where ever they please to. That is what KEO was doing in 1999. And it was illegal then as it is now. That fact he does it legitimately now doesn't make up for his crimes before.

I'm looking over the thread but still missing anything slanderous on legitimate artists. Perhaps it is an interpretation. I dunno. But that wasn't the point of the thread.

If Kerry and Clark supporters did do that, what has it to do with the fact that gully and a few others were in complete denial that grafitti is illegal, then tried to rationalize it away by calling any such laws racist?

[w4rma]

125. Post number 42 has been deleted.

Post number 18 is still there.

There is a reason for that. Post number 42 was a personal attack. Post number 18 wasn't, that's why it hasn't been deleted.

Graffiti is a style of art. It is legal if it is not defacing someone else's property.

Do you disagree?

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about whether or not illegalizing a style of art is racist.

[bushclipper]

128. we've all seen posts deleted and posts not deleted that maybe should be...

... #18 was a personal attack. The mods, of course, make that decision in regards to this board. But is appears to me that it is also against DU policy to draw comparisons to a DU member with republicans and their operatives. I see #18 a clear violation of that.

Graffiti is art to some, I suppose, though I'm a bit too old to appreciate it.

But from the beginning of the "grafitti" part of the thread, it was declared that graffiti was not illegal and it is. I see the poster gully tried to back track a little (and it appears someone agreed) that if it is illegal, it is racist.

I do consider a charge of racism a bit over the top - and perhaps a little too convenient.

[w4rma]

130. …

Graffiti is not illegal. Graffiti on someone else's property is vandalism. Vandalism is illegal. Graffiti on canvas or on one's own property is legal.

Noone on this thread ever said that graffiti on someone else's property was legal. It's not. It's against the law. KEO broke that law back in 1999. They only found out about it recently. He was tried and was likely fined as punishment.

Again, I'm not interested in getting into a debate about whether or not illegalizing a style of art is racist.

post #18, "You sound a bit like Rush today.", is mild and noone was called any names. Similarly your statements, "…gully and a few others were in complete denial…" and "…very reactionary people…", are also mild. I'm also not interesting in arguing over whether or not these are personal or too personal.

[bushclipper]

131. New York Law § 10-117 defines graffiti ...

and imposes fines and jail terms for it. The style of graffiti may now be used in canvas art, but graffiti as applied with law always means the unlawful vandalism of public property through drawings or words.

Vandalism is a broad word, and graffiti is but one form of it.

In the legal sense, what the artist now does is not graffiti. What he was arrested for is.

A realize there are mild "personal attacks" but, of course, they're always in the eye of the beholder or, in DU's case, the eye of the moderator.

That is why I can see that post 18 was every bit as derogatory as the deleted post.

I feel it was. Obviously wyldwolf did. The mod did not.

[w4rma]

132. What the artist does on canvas is graffiti.

That will be the term used on the plate below or next to his exibits when they are shown in museums and art galleries.

Again, I'm not interested in getting into a debate about whether or not illegalizing a style of art is racist.

post #18, "You sound a bit like Rush today.", is mild and noone was called any names. Similarly your statements, "…gully and a few others were in complete denial…" and "…very reactionary people…", are also mild. I'm also not interesting in arguing over whether or not these are personal or too personal or whether the mods should delete the posts.

[Pastiche423]

119. Oh for cripe's sake

Bullshit on wyldwolf posting this to help. His posting history proves that not to be the case.

clark's campaign is tanking and some of his supporters are trying desperately to show otherwise.

[bushclipper]

129. I've been in this politcal game 40 years man and boy...

..and I've seen a lot happen.

This thread reminds me of the McGovern campaign where his supporter (of which I was one) were so in love with him and desperate for change that they themselves became irrational.

I lurked here all during the spring and summer and saw all manner of Howard Dean love fest posts. One would have thought he was Jesus. He certainly had a messiah effect.

I remember it became a joke to other people because there were so many Howard Dean posts.

Now that another candidate has come that inspires a similar passion, many of the Dean people and Clark people do appear to be fighting a turf war.

wyldwolf is not the only poster of Clark material here. It doesn't appear he does it much more than a few other Clark supporters. He is obviously very good at research, he does seem to get the big stories before anyone else (I assume he works either in Washington in some capacity or is a reporter of some sort), and he is good at pushing Clark information.

That may be your problem with him.

[roguevalley]

133. tempest in a teapot.

I obey the law too but the writer is offering an
opinion. Doesn't make it legally correct. We will
have to wait and see. Clark is honorable and so
is Dean. If wrong was done, they will fix it. End
of story.

[gully]

138. It was a Clark supporter trying to detract attention from his guy...

with a ridiculous comparison.

In addition, what I said was:

If Graffiti is against the law it's a racist law. The laws noted regarding 'graffiti' are against 'vandalism including graffiti' not grafitti per-se.

My apologies to wyldwolf for my tounge in cheek comment about sounding like Rush. It was meant in jest, and I had no intention of it becoming such an issue.

Wyldwolf, you are no Rush Limbaugh mmmk??? ;) :hug:

[bushclipper]

144. I didn't see it that way...

As an impartial obeserver (I'm not a Clarkie or a Deanie) I saw someone present two potentially damaging stories for discussion.

There was no comparison made - just two subjects within one post.

I read your posts on graffiti. Whether you meant them to or not (and I am no judge of that) they came across as a denial of the unlawfullness of grafitti. Your distinction appeared to be that if it isn't sprayed on a subway, it's ok.

The laws quoted are precise and are specific to graffiti. They were created to address graffiti. Try it in front of a NY Police officer and see.

Whatever you have going with wyldwolf is between you two.

I'm just calling it like I see it. You see it differently wich is OK :)

But I have no reason to not believe wyldwolf.

[gully]

146. You came away with a different observation then most people here did,

I used subway as an example. I feel my post was clear.

Here it is:

"Grafitti ILLEGAL? On a subway perhaps...


but, for a backdrop it isn't.


Your are funny wyldwolf. You sound a bit like Rush today."

What I said was accurate. Dean hired a Graffiti artist for a backdrop (which was legal)

I said Graffiti is not illegal, and if it were, it would be racist. I mean Graffiti (the art form) when I said Graffiti, not Graffiti used for vandalism...

Sure, I said he sounded a bit like Rush, other posters compared him/her to Rove and Drudge... I don't see any 'uproar' about that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

136. I saw that speech

and before he spoke, the man who introduced Clark said that Depauw had invited Clark to speak loooong before he appeared and thanked him for "still" speaking even after he had announced his bid for the Presidency. I honestly think, he didn't know he wasn't suppose to be paid for the speech. He gave the speech right after his announcementto run. He knows now. I don't hold this against him.

[Sterling]

137. Could be serious for Clark

For Dean this is a non issue. If this is the best they got they are in trouble.

I live in the LES (if you don't know what that is then stfu about graffiti in NYC) and I like the murals that artists like this do legally on buildings in my area.

I don't like taggers who just scribble their "tags" everywhere.

I don't expect everyone to like it but it is art and the fact this guy may have put his art where it was not welcome does not mean he is not an artist and does not negate any legal work he has done.

[stickdog]

148. How about Donnie Fowler quitting Clark's campaign?

Someone hired by Dean for a one-time-only event got arrested for tagging a subway car. Oh my!

That really stirs the pot. :eyes:

[AWD]

149. Not only that....

....but wyldwolf claims it was "a bad week" for the top contenders.

Did I miss something, or do arrests that happened in 1999 still count as things thathappened this week????

[Bread and Circus]

150. Clark is giving all the money back....

so the problem is solved.

BFD.