Dems to Revive Draft Demand - I'm not liking this

[TNOE]

Apologize if this has been posted earlier - I have not seen it until now.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/100703/draft.aspx

"Key Democrats in the House and Senate will renew calls for the military draft as part of a critical barrage they are preparing to launch against President Bush over the length of troop deployments and the heavy reliance on reservists in Iraq.

Military experts outside Congress say there is a political advantage to be gained by Democrats who want to make the president squirm at a time a growing frustratoin among military families and other Americans over the occupation.

But they also say that there are legitimate policy grounds for re-instituting the draft, which was phased out after the Vietnam war."

THIS IS A VERY BAD MOVE IN MY OPINION.

[goobergunch]

1. Yeah, it's a very bad idea

This will completely kill the Democrats with the youth vote. There is no way I'm going to be able to vote for somebody who wants to put me in the military. If I'm not going to, imagine the typical young voter.

Bad idea, both politically and policy-wise.

Gotta run...this is my lunch period.

EDIT: I primarily mean presidential candidates.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Well, just think of all those who like the idea.

It is a risky move. The odds are a draft won't be instituted, but it's real brinkmanship bringing it up just to force the warmoingers to shit or get off the pot.

However, I can't imagine a draft being instituted in this day and age without some form of alternative service being offered. It's also difficult to see how they would justify exempting women from the draft.

All in all, a truly universal draft with alternative service might not be all that bad. It would certainly help the youth unemployment problem.

It would also cost us a shitpot of money.

[forgethell]

24. And

it would be slavery. I thought we were past that.

[bowens43]

39. Trouble is.....

that everyone with an IQ over 50 knows that it's brinkmanship and will see it for the political maneuvering that it is. It work about as well as the Arnold groping stories....

[Must_B_Free]

58. they're throwing a tarbaby at him.

draft will not go over well and it will be Bush's fault.

[xray s]

2. I don't like this

Let the Bush regime come to the Congress asking to reinstate the draft because of his reckless cowboy foreign policies.

Why should we do his dirty work for him?

[caledesi]

5. Exactly xray....it's *'s mess, we shouldn't do his dirty work?

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. As long as only the poor are drafted, voters will support it

Obviously, there would have to be exemptions made for the children of the affluent.

[eleny]

4. Yes it's terrible...

but how else will the administration be able to wage constant war? The coalition of the willing is a drib and drab drop in the bucket of boots on the ground. So, where else are they going to get soldiers?

I agree with you, totally. But I wonder if the Dems are pushing the issue to illustrate the horror of what our soldiers are going through "over there". How long can they stay over there without falling apart? They have to be replaced, but by who? The only other alterniative is to start pulling out and turning the country over to the Iraqis.

[charlie]

They already made their point

by proposing this once before. They don't want to push the issue until it becomes fixed in the public mind that Democrats Want To Draft Our Kids. We'd get shellacked.

[HFishbine]

6. Agree - Bad Idea

Why do anything more to further accomodate Bush's foreign adventurism? Bush will squirm even more if the draft becomes a necessity and he is the one who has to advance it. All the dems gain by pushing it now is the alienation of young people, mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers.

[mac56]

8. I don't agree with it -

but some Dems proposed it last winter/spring during the buildup to war. A draft with no exemptions, as I recall. Making the point that people might be less supportive of the Iraqi conquest if they had "skin in this game". Especially the affluent.

[dolstein]

9. Democrats should suppport a draft

If the Democratic Party stands for anything, it should stand for equality and shared sacrifice for the common good. Right now, the burden of defending this country is being borne disproportionately by people from low income families. The policymakers in Washington are free to commit the U.S. to military action abroad, safe in the knowledge that their children will never be put in harms way.

[goobergunch]

10. It should stand for forced military service?

I always believed that the Democratic party stood for personal liberty....

[sangh0]

15. Personal liberty?

Since when has personal liberty removed a citizens' civic duty? That is, aside from in the minds of Freepers.

[bowens43]

20. Civic duty?

My son's civic duty doesn't include going to foreign lands and killing people who have done them no harm.

[sangh0]

22. Actually, you're wrong about that

Your son, like every other citizen of this nation, has an obligation to obey the laws of this land, which are passed by a legislature elected by the people. This legislature has the power, granted by the Constitution, to pass laws requiring it's citizens to serve in the military.

[bowens43]

27. Nope.

I have no moral or ethical obligation to obey laws that I find to be immoral and I don't obey them. Many people bend over and bow down to the government but I don't. I do not and will not blindly do as I'm told.

[atreides1]

41. So...

...you like BUSHCO, can decide which laws you will follow.

And not bringing in the moral clause, what makes you different.

Since you won't bend over or bow down to the government, are you one who will stand and fight against it?

[bowens43]

55. No, it's not as simple as that.

I am opposed to the draft. I would not allow my sons to be drafted (unless they didn't oppose it) and I would help them to violate the law to avoid the draft. I smoked pot for many years, it was always illegal.

Yes, everyday each of us decides which laws to obey and which to violate.

As far as fighting the government goes, that would depend on the definition of 'fighting' the situation. I have marched in opposition to the government many times.

[sangh0]

71. Do you pay taxes?

A large portion of those taxes goes to pay for these immoral wars.

[bowens43]

73. Yes I do pay taxes

and I know what they're used for.

[sangh0]

76. SO when will you stop paying?

After all, you don't obey immoral laws, right?

Or do you just disobey the immoral laws you think you can benefit from by disobeying?

[sangh0]

48. You do have moral and ethical obligation to obey the laws

You incurred it when you took the protections and benefits of this nations laws. Payback is a bitch, huh?

[Lars39]

57. You can also have the moral and ethical obligation to install another

government in it's place, when the first one gets off track. By your argument we'd still have slavery, and women wouldn't vote.

[sangh0]

63. Wrong again

Slavery was abolished, and women were given the right to vote, through democratic and constitutional procedures.

And disobeying laws which are passed through democratic and constitutional means is NOT the same thing as installing another govt, no matter how much you may flatter your desire to save your own by calling it "a revolution"

[Lars39]

65. Got news for you, laws were broken. Ever heard of suffregettes?

[sangh0]

70. Ever hear of sacrifice?

When laws are broken, people go to jail. Genuine non-violent protesters disobey the laws in a way that challenges the govt to arrest them. They don't deliberately get arrested for purposes of self-interest. Genuine protest involves sacrifice for the benefit of others.

All I see here is people being concerned about themselves and their own family. Meanwhile, we have a war going on in this country for out freedoms, and instead of considering the sacrifices we might have to make in order to win this war, we have people wondering how to avoid the fallout.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

78. The war for freedom is in the US

not Iraq.

Thanks for not reading what I wrote. Now I know the sort of intellect I'm dealing with

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

88. Could you please respond

without calling me names?

[Lars39]

89. Works both ways, you know.

[sangh0]

92. Do you?

Please re-read your post #29, in which you imply that my age and possibility that I can be drafted is somehow relevant to my opinion. If you want to be responded to respectfully, then I strongly suggest you stop implying that my opinions are the result of self-interest and nothing more, or that I don't have a right to my opinion unless I'm eligible to be drafted.

[Lars39]

94. As Molly Ivins would say, "You got a dog in this hunt?"

Having a personal interest, ie being draftable age or NOT could make a difference in your opinion. Which family member are you willing to sacrifice to the PNAC war gods?

[bowens43]

62. No, I don't have a moral obligation.

My morals are not dictated by or based on obligations. I didn't ask to be born here. The government works for me, I don't work for them. You may be a subject of king George, I am not. I follow laws that I do not consider to be immoral because I believe in civilization and supporting a civilized society , not because I feel that I am obligated. As far as I am concerned the government is obligated to protect me with just and moral laws. I pay taxes for the service they provide.

[sangh0]

67. Then you don't have any ethics

My morals are not dictated by or based on obligations.

Yes, they are, and to say otherwise demonstrates a great ignorance of what ethics are based on.

I didn't ask to be born here. The government works for me, I don't work for them.

Wrong again. The govt works for US, not YOU.

I follow laws that I do not consider to be immoral because I believe in civilization and supporting a civilized society , not because I feel that I am obligated. As far as I am concerned the government is obligated to protect me with just and moral laws. I pay taxes for the service they provide

This is just self-serving BS. You obey laws which are immoral, like paying the taxes the govt says you owe, not because you want to continue funding immoral wars, but because you want to keep your own ass out of jail.

If you want to convince me you're morally pure, stop paying your taxes and go to jail. Until then, you're just protecting your own without any intention of making any sacrifices for anyone else but you and your own.

[bowens43]

77. You still haven't answered the questions asked of you.

How old are you?
Did you serve in the armed forces?
Do you have draft age children?
Would you send your children too Iraq to kill and die for oil?

BTW, you still haven't explained how reinstating the draft would help anyone. Give it your best shot, I'm not expecting much.

[sangh0]

80. Are you God?

And you have yet to explain why you obey some immoral laws (like paying your taxes) and ignore others?

[goobergunch]

100. IMHO the draft violates the Thirteenth Amendment

which prohibits "involuntary servitude".

[bowens43]

11. nonsense.

If you think for one moment that a draft will mean a larger proportion of wealthy children or congressmen's children will be sent to Iraq to die then I have some ocean front property in Kansas you might be interested in.

We have a volunteer military, NO ONE has to join. Don't you dare suggest sending MY children to kill and be killed!!!!! Why don't YOU volunteer or talk your loved ones into it?

[atreides1]

47. You're Right...

...a draft will not guarantee that the children of the rich, or well
placed politicians serve in the military. It will make sure that the poor and the middle class are sent to far away lands to die for the rich.

But if the poor and the middle class are in control of the military,
and come to the realization that they are being used as cannon fodder
to make people like Steve Forbes richer, eventually something will snap.

Just think, millions of soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen, coming home on leave only to find that their families are working as slave labor, or are homeless, don't have access to medical care. All because the politicians that sent them to war have been hacking away at all the social programs so that they can give more tax cuts to the rich. Millions of pissed off troops, who finally realize that they have been duped and used....

It's kind of interesting to imagine.

By the way, I served for 13 years on active duty, I am a Desert Storm
vet. My son is a convicted felon so he would not even be accepted, my
youngest daughter never got her high school diploma, and is working on getting her GED, my oldest daughter is married and has 3 children.

In order for her to enlist she would have to give her children up. Since I don't see that happening, there is no way my children can even get into the military.

Now as for my grandsons, that's a totally different story.

[Occulus]

60. I see

so you're advocating for other people's kids to go off and fight and die whilst stating that none of your kids would ever have to do so.

Interesting.

[shanti]

68. well isn't that nice for you?

"In order for her to enlist she would have to give her children up. Since I don't see that happening, there is no way my children can even get into the military."


those of us with sons (and i have four of them) vociferously disagree with any draft (i'm with bowen), and will do anything within our power to keep them out!

[TNOE]

12. I don't beleive for one second

the rich/elite will get drafted regardless of the wording. Yes the burden is being borne disproportionately by people from low income families - BUT THEY ENLISTED. It was their choice, there's the difference.

I have always been and will always be against this "war" in Afghanistan and Iraq and we don't need to swell the military ranks with more cannon foder for Syria, Iran, etc., etc. This is bullshit. And it will forever destroy the Democrats.

[sangh0]

16. Some choice!

See the world (and maybe be killed) or stay in the ghetto

Your compassion and understanding for the "choices" foisted on the poor underwhelms me.

[TNOE]

21. In the Ghetto

there is still choice - is there not?? In War - there is NO choice - your choices are (1) get sick from the vacinations or the depleted uranium; (2) get wounded; (3) die; (4) survive but be forever changed mentally and psychologically.

Don't tell me the ghetto does these things to a person.

[sangh0]

25. You don't know about the ghetto?

Some liberal!

In the ghetto you have the choice of

1) Getting sick from no health care
2) getting wounded
3) getting addicted
4) Getting killed
5) Surviving but be forever changed mentally and psychologically

You're the first liberal I've met that doesn't seem to understand the profound psychological effects of poverty or the dangers of ghetto life. Congratulations!

[TNOE]

28. You are so full of shit

If you points are correct - why is it that so many great people have come from the ghetto to do wondrous marvelous things??? AND THERE HAVE BEEN AND ARE MANY!

Given a choice - I'll take the ghetto any damn day.

[sangh0]

49. That's so Republican

First, you start by offering a personal insult, complete with a barnyard epithet.

Then, you follow that up with the Freeper-esque argument that because there have been some individuals who have escaped the ghetto, that means that anyone who remains there is there by choice.

Given a choice - I'll take the ghetto any damn day.

Unlike the people who live in ghettos, you have more choices. You are fortunate enough that you can avoid the ghetto AND military service.

[TNOE]

69. Hey Buddy -

you've got no idea about me or my life but you sure are good at making assumptions. I have for the majority of my life (until the last 5 years) been just one step immediately out of the ghetto as a single mother with zero child support. I went to school, got a good job, worked two jobs forever, etc., etc. And always found myself making just over "too much money" - like $13,000 a year when my daughter was small of getting any benefits from our government - although I probably would have refused them even if given. I'm still a single parent putting my daughter through college by myself and she is working two jobs AND going to school - with zero help from the government on that either - so yes, I've been so damn close to the ghetto that I know of what I speak. I as well as many others I know (most of my good friends as a matter of fact) barely escaped the ghetto - and my best friend actually did not escape - lived in the Cleveland Flats area on welfare - after her parents were brought over from a concentration camp in Poland after WWII and spoke no English - and now she is a very successful stock broker. You CAN escape the ghetto - but there is no escape from war and all the atrocities that go along with "war".

[sangh0]

75. Close counts with grenades, not the ghetto.

And to speak about a Polish immigrant escaping the ghetto as if her experience was representative of the typical resident of the ghettos is laughable.

And "draft" is not "war". Most people who are drafted never see combat, even if they're drafted while the nation is involved in a war.

[TNOE]

98. Sangj0 - you offer the most disjointed arguments

I have ever seen. On the one hand you are saying we are fighting for our freedom here - which is true - so why would we send our children to a foreign country to kill innocents for this lie of a war for profit - mind you, only profit for the Bushites, not America. It would make a lot more sense to stay here and fight - if it comes to that which it very well might. I'd gladly fight to the death for my home, property, family, country, etc. - but I would never be willing to fight for faschism - nor would I let my children or want anyone else's too.

And since Bush* has already told us we will be in "endless war" for the foreseeable future - what on earth makes you think that "draft" does not equal "war" - it does now. After Iraq on to Syria, on to Iran and then perhaps North Korea. NEVER.

Why don't you relay your "ghetto" experience since you seem to know so much about it? My friends experience is somewhat representive of those who have escaped the ghetto - she is one of them. How can her experience not count or be representative? Funny too, she is still friends with many of the friends she grew up with in the ghetto - and they are all fairly successful with decent jobs, marriages and kids - just like most of us "middle income" folks.

[ieoeja]

64. Unlike You

If your points are correct - why is it that so many great people have come from the military to do wondrous marvelous tings??? AND THERE HAVE BEEN AND ARE MANY!

Given a choice - many people choose military service every damn day to get out of the ghetto.

[gottaB]

37. Amen

It's unjust to criticize people for their choices without accounting for their circumstances.

[bowens43]

31. So your solution is

to give everyone else fewer choices rather then try to increase the choices for the less privileged. Yeah, that's a good idea.

[sangh0]

50. straw man

How typical is it that people who have no argument resort to trying to put words in other people's mouth?

[bowens43]

66. It's not a strawman.

You seem to be saying that because the less privilaged have a tougher time of it then most, we should make EVERYONE have a tougher time of it.

[sangh0]

81. Proof that it IS a straw man

is your need to put the "YOU SEEM TO BE in front of the sentence.

[charlie]

13. T'was ever thus

You're confident that a draft will be egalitarian this time around? I'm not. Not even remotely.

I'm also positive Dems will be doomed if they're held to be the ones sponsoring a draft. This sort of sacrifice of electoral viability to principle smells like -- wait for it -- ideological purity. You know, like voting against the fucking war before it happened.

[bowens43]

14. I'll tell you this, if it becomes a campaign issue

I'll vote for the party that opposes the draft even if it means voting for four more years of the idiot. I will do EVERYTHING in my power to assure the safety of my sons and if the draft was to be re-instated my sons and I would leave the country. I am a hard core Democrat, voted a straight Dem ticket in every national and regional election since 1976 but this is an issue that could throw me over to the dark side.

[sangh0]

17. Too late

You're already thinking only about your own.

[bowens43]

26. No, I'm also thinking about

the tens of thousands of other children who will be torn from their lives and sent away to kill or be killed. If people want to volunteer, fine, it's their choice but no one has a right to force others to do so.

Those who support a draft sure being cavalier with other peoples lives.

[sangh0]

52. Spare me.

You have no right to disobey the laws that Congress has the constitutional power to enact. And out govt does have the power to force people to do so.

Those who support a draft sure being cavalier with other peoples lives.

WHat makes you think a draft wouldn't affect my life?

Those who think they know what other people lives are like sure are being cavalier with other people's lives.

[goobergunch]

101. Congress does not have the power to force involuntary servitude

See my post #100.

The Supreme Court's disagreeing argument was essentially that people were nuts if they didn't want to serve their country in a time of "war".

[Lars39]

29. How old are you?

If you are eligible to be in the armed forces, why aren't you?

[sangh0]

53. Are you God?

If not, then what makes you qualified to decide which opinions I can have?

[Lars39]

54. You didn't answer the question.

[sangh0]

83. Neither did you

.

[TNOE]

18. Don't blame you

I do not have a son, but daughter of 21 (with friends) and my nephews - and I tell you - this one issue would definitely drive me away. I don't blame you one bit - as a mother I would do everything and anything within my power to keep my children "out of harms way". You had better believe it. I told my daughter before this Iraq mess began - if she were a boy I would have to break her arm or shoot her in the leg - whatever it took not to be sent over to die for oil and to make the Bushites richer. NEVER.

[charlie]

23. Reviving the draft

would not only be stupid, but it would add to Dem complicity in this fucking insanity. We can claim a certain measure of distance from the war, as a large number of congressmen voted against it. But if any of them have a hand in bring back the draft to give the Boy King the cannon fodder he desperately needs, I'll go Independent and write in a vote for whoever suits me -- I'm sure you and I would be far from alone in that.

[LeahMira]

42. National Service???

Right now, the burden of defending this country is being borne disproportionately by people from low income families. The policymakers in Washington are free to commit the U.S. to military action abroad, safe in the knowledge that their children will never be put in harms way.


I would have no problem with the idea that all young people should give a year to some sort of national service, similar to the CCC or WPA, or the Peace Corps and VISTA programs, or other similar efforts. If there are young people who do want to do military service, that should be one of their options... as long as the military service time commitment is exactly as long as any other commitment.

I say this because the times that I have volunteered to work with people with disabilities or with hospital fundraising, etc. have been learning experiences that I never would have had in the 9 to 5 work world. It also helped me to understand the problems that low income folks have to deal with and it has shaped my thinking to this day.

There are certainly places for the children of the affluent to work... in legal aid, for instance. It might help them to empathize with others that they would not normally meet up with. Habitat for Humanity works wonderful changes in the students here on campus! Plus, it is good for their resumes.

Just today, I attended a lunchtime presentation about Women's Human Rights in War Time, and at the end of her presentation the lecturer asked the students to network with one another, tell what they were already involved with, and exchange e-mails or whatever, if they are interested in getting involved with the issues and concerns she addressed in her presentation. Not everyone was interested by a long shot, but five or six students got together.

So, with that interest out there, why is the government and the nation not taking advantage and channeling these kids (and adults) into community and national service? It seems a shame that the only way most kids see to serve the country is by fighting and killing.

[JewelDigger]

19. Wait just a second here.....

the Dems have REALLY put their paddle on the wrong side of the boat here. Remember:

- the 'reasons' for going to war were lies
- Iraq is costing/will cost the US tons of money - which will run up the deficit even more
- US efforts in Iraq so far have apparently created one big mess
- the troops currently serving are over-extended

WHY are the Dems talking about instituting a draft, rather than talking about 'How are we going to extricate ourselves from this?'

I am getting sick & tired of this government, Dems and Repubs alike, creating more problems, more division, and more sorrow, hardship, and anguish. I want SOLUTIONS - REAL ONES! Cut down our dependence on foreign oil, take positive steps to that end. And if you say it's all about money, What? Can't the greedy bastards figure out how to make some money by developing alternative energy sources? I guess THEY don't know the word entrepreneur!

[bowens43]

33. Exactly.

There is nothing the bushies would like more then to have a bigger pool of bodies while being able to place the blame for the draft on the Dems. It's win win for them.

[Ohio_Norm]

36. Forget the draft

The only fair proposal is 100% universal service, with non-military alternatives for those so inclined. No exemptions, period.

I could support that, and while my 18 year old son would moan and grumble, he would be doing it next to the sons and daughters of our ruling elite as well as the less advantaged. It would become an extension of the educational process.

And for those of you who have never 'enjoyed'the benefits of the military experience, there is educational value to be found in learning how to work and get along with people with different backgrounds from your own.

[TNOE]

40. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha - Now THAT'S rich

"And for those of you who have never 'enjoyed'the benefits of the military experience, there is educational value to be found in learning how to work and get along with people with different backgrounds from your own".

Um yeah, like my Dad did when he went to serve in the Korean War - and now tells me it's a shame he was not as wise then as he is now because he can now see and forever have to live with his shame in having to kill little children as they wandered over as they might have a grenade attached to them - and his regret for ever having to aim his rifle to "kill" period - much less have to kill women and children.

The world is full of people with different backgrounds - you don't need to serve in the military for that. Just get out in the workforce, volunteer, go to school, etc., etc. What a totally weak argument. Somehow 100% universal service sounds a lot like communism.

[QuestioningStudent]

56. Oh, great.

Are you advocating the idea that indivudals of mature age and sound mind without having committed a criminal action should have their liberty taken from them? I've always understood the Democratic ideology at its best to be concerned with personal liberty above all else. This, I would assume, is not an example of that. I find it very hard to see any justification for this position. Can you offer any justifications for a loss of liberty like that beyond the fact that everyone, regardless of economic/social status, gets to lose their liberty equally? Is this some ideal 'equality of outcome' nirvana that I haven't realized yet?

[sangh0]

90. You misunderstand Democratic ideology

Though Democratic ideology does hold that ALL individuals are entitled to equal right, it's based more on communitarian values, tan on personal liberty. It definitely does not place personal liberty above all else.

Can you offer any justifications for a loss of liberty like that beyond the fact that everyone, regardless of economic/social status, gets to lose their liberty equally? Is this some ideal 'equality of outcome' nirvana that I haven't realized yet?

The Constitution gives the govt the power to pass laws to require military service from it's citizens. That would be the legal justification.

The moral justification is that the defense of the nation is not an individual effort, and a democratic and representative govt has the moral right to impose those obligations which are necesary to provide for it's defense. People benefit from our govt and the protection it offers, and as a result, they have a moral obligation to contribute to it's defense.

[JewelDigger]

97. Where are all those weapons anywayz?

"The moral justification is that the defense of the nation is not an individual effort" while that statement is TRUE, in this particular case what are 'we' defending against? Imaginary Weapons of Mass Destruction?????

[QuestioningStudent]

103. I disagree.

With some of that, anyway.

Up first...If you could show me where the power is explicated in the Constitution that Congress may pass such legislation REQUIRING military service from the citizens of the United States, please do. From my readings, that is NOT in there. And as I recall from the readings I did way back when on the draft challenges in the SCOTUS, they were generally thrown out for a lack of standing. And there was some dicta in the decisions to the effect that Congress's creation of draft legislation was only tolerable because the Court wasn't goiong to speak out in a time of war against many things the government might do.

If people have the obligation to die whenever the government feels it's necessary, I might really question whether or not the government in question is one that ultimately benefits the people.

[Liberal Classic]

30. Rangel's idea spreading? Bad news, IMO

For the record I oppose the military draft, on ethical, moral, and constitutional grounds. I know that most liberals likewise oppose the military draft for any number of reasons similar to my own, legitimate policy grounds not withstanding. However, when I hear the suggestion that the draft be used to score political brownie points I cringe. Rangel should be ashamed of himself for suggesting such a horrible thing. Is nothing in Washington D.C. sacred?

What ever position you have about the military being in Iraq and Afganistan, what ever you say about it, the one thing that you must say is that Americans there chose to be there. They were not forced, they were not coerced. If there is someone who does not support our government's use of the military abroad, then they do not have to serve in the armed forces. Such a person may with good conscience stay out of the military. Instead of breaking the law or fleeing to another country, a young man or woman may protest, write elected officials, and all those actions to being a redress of grievances that are protected by the constitution. This is how things should be.

How could the situation be improved by putting people there who do not want to be there? I am not even going to address the issues of the effects of conscription on the social atmosphere of the country, or on the combat arms. There are plenty of people who can raise these points more expertly than I. But I believe everything I've written here. Conscription is a dangerous power to give the government. Conscription proposed to generate a calculated political gain is nigh-obscenity, and I say this as a volunteer veteran.

[Colin Ex]

32. If the Dems lead a movement to reinstall the draft

then frankly, you couldn't pay me to vote for them.

And I'm sure a pretty fucking huge bloc of my generation will feel the same way.

-C

[hedda_foil]

34. So ... the Dems will be responsible for the reistitution of the draft ...

And thereby for the PNAC wars in general. This is not stupidity we're up against, folks. It's DLCism. Remember, they avidly supported the war and their candidates continue to do so to this day.

I wondered when Rangel brought this up the first time how he could be so ingenuous as to believe that a real universal draft could either be passed without major loopholes for the children of the wealthy or that it could be desirable to have all of our children trained for war.

Watching Rangel suck up to Clark (apparently at the urging of either Clinton or DLC or both) without knowing whether he was a Democrat or not, it becomes obvious to me that he's allowing himself to be used for political ends. The Black Commentator said that the quid pro quo as that he was being promised the chairmanship of the Ways and Means Committee if the Dems take back the House.

Does this fit together for anyone else or is my titanium foil on too tight today?

[artr2]

35. I'm afraid you all just arn't getting it

The reason for bringing this up is to get the college conservatives looking at Democrats again. As long as they are in college, the "war" is something to be debated in a abstract manner. When they have to register for the draft and possibly have to go, that is a different matter. It will not be "those fucking democrats" for asking for the draft, it will be "what the fuck is bush doing" that removes them from college life (you know binges, rave parties, consensual & non consensual sex) . You don't think that some of those people might start getting involved in the political process? If anything the repukkks are probably waiting until after the election to bring it up themselves. This just forces their hand. This is a good thing politically. And yes I am against the draft but the Democrats can shove this up *'s ass and make him look bad

[bowens43]

38. It's lousy strategy. This isn't something

to play games with. Suppose it happens, the repugs get all the bodies they need for their wars and the Dems get the blame for supplying them. BTW , if this is the same bill they talked about before there is no exemption for collage students. If the draft is reinstated and the Dems are responsible I will be saying "those fucking democrats" and I will vote republican if they oppose it. This doesn't make bush look bad , it makes the Dems look like hypocrites.

[NashVegas]

43. Agreed - This is a Horrendous Strategy

If it weren't for the fact that Rumsfeld has already been caught dissing drafted soldiers as flunkies, there's nothing GW Bush would love more than for his administration to *not* be the ones to introduce the option of a draft.

As it is now, we're overstretched. With a draft, we're in Syria, we're in Iran, we're in Venezuela and god knows where else.

When are the the dim bulbs in the Dem establishment going to wake up and stop playing into Republican hands?

[Fight_n_back]

45. Abso freaking lootly

you hit the nail on the head.

[sangh0]

61. Yep, and notice

how those criticizing this proposal are all couching their objections in terms of their own lives and their own families.

I can understand why people wouldn't want to send themselves or their children off to one of Bush*'s wars, but what people here don't seem to understand is that we have a war on right here in the US. We're fighting for OUR freedom, and if people think we're going to win without any sacrifices, they are just fooling themselves.

The fascists aren't going to give up power because we wrote some LTTE's.

[bowens43]

72. LOL!

Sorry, but you seem to be fighting AGAINST our freedom! You want to force others to do your bidding. So how old are you? Do you have draft age children? Have you served in the armed services? Would you be willing to send YOUR children to die for oil in Iraq?

You think that we can become more free by giving our children to the bushies to use for cannon fodder?

I suggest you invest in a dictionary and look up the word 'freedom', I don't think you know what it means.

[sangh0]

84. LOL!

Yeah, right! That's it! I, and I alone, have the awesome power to force a draft on the country.

And I know what freedom means. And I know it doesn't include Presidents selected by five ancient fascist judges.

[Lars39]

79. Yes, we're fighting a war for our freedoms right here in the US,

so why in the hell should we send the next generation to further the PNAC goals, which further erode our freedoms here?

[sangh0]

85. If you agree that we are fighting for our freedom in the US

then if you were to be convinced that a draft would help us restore our freedom, then shouldn't you support a draft?

[Lars39]

91. You mean like millions of people in the streets protesting the draft?

That worked sooo well as a deterrant for us going to war in the first place, didn't it?

[sangh0]

93. Huh?

What in the world are you talking about? What do the protests have to do with this? And what do "deterrants" have to do with this?

The argument being made here in favor of a draft is that it will help restore our freedoms by helping to get Bush* out of office. What do the protests have to do with this argument?

[Lars39]

96. Then explain how enacting a draft would get Bush out of office.

[NashVegas]

86. That's Just Fruity

You must think Rove and Bush are amazingly stupid to allow themselves tobe cornered in this way.

Scenario 1:

Dems - well if ya REALLY wanna win the war, we need a draft!

Bush - holy cow! you're right.

Scenario 2:

Dems - well if ya REALLY wanna win the war, we need a draft!

Rove talking points memo - Dems want to escalate the battle and send your children forcibly into the military, when we already have all the troops we need.

[sangh0]

87. IMO, there are more scenarios

than the two you offer.

[SammyWinstonJack]

95. I agree that if Bush* get re-selected he will

re-instate the draft. The repukes won't touch it before then, political suicide. Why should we make the same mistake? If the dems advocate a draft, it won't get shoved up Bush*'s a$$. Americans aren't going buy that "everyone serves" crap. The rich know they won't be sending their kids off to war and the poor know theirs will be sent. Whichever Party is responsible for a draft will take the hit politically. Geez, the dems really don't want to win in '04, not if they are actively promoting this.

[Fight_n_back]

44. Its about time

The only thing that will stop the White House profiterring is if middle class people have their kids at risk.

Boomers don't like to admit it but what got the anti war fever going in Vietnam was when the draft lottery was fixed to make it more fair. It is also why Nixon wanted an all volunteer force. If MAry the Soccer Mom has to worry about perfect blond hair Billy getting shrapnel in his ass then all of a sudden there had better be a pretty fucking good reason to take him out of his mostly white private school.

[Karmadillo]

46. Poverty, Military Service Seem to Go Hand-in-Hand

Is the current situation more justifiable than a draft without class exemptions?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0405-01.htm

Poverty, Military Service Seem to Go Hand-in-Hand
by Roy MacGregor

<edit>

"There's no jobs around here," Pettry says. "There's no employment. Most of them go into the service because they know the government will pay well and they'll come out of it with some training."

"There has never been a lot of work here," adds Reynolds. "People who didn't leave during the Depression are still stuck in the Depression if they stayed."

There has long been a link between poverty and the U.S. military, even between poverty and heroism. The last great American war hero -- winner of the Medal of Honor in the Second World War -- was Texas's Audie Murphy, the sixth of nine children born to sharecroppers so poor the family often lived in abandoned boxcars.

Jessica Lynch is unique in that she is a teenager and a woman, and not even the military can figure out the last time an American PoW was rescued.

But she is also from a poor background, and in that she is not unique at all.

more...

[rusk2003]

51. Are they for real

I mean is this a political move to gain surrport for the Democratic Party. If they are for real I think they may be going insane Afterall one of the Congressman is repersenting harlem and those are the people who it will hurt. The rich and powerful will get attorneys and can work their way out of it.

[Judson39]

59. Those going over to war now are citizen-soldiers

It is a politicial-necessitity to begin the draft because the volunteers are not re-enlisting during a war.

[dolstein]

99. From "ask not what your country can do for you" to "cover your own ass"

Forty years of progress.

[MadHound]

102. And this is suprising how?

Once again in a futile attempt to not look like wusses, the Democratic Party is rattling the draft sword. Why should this suprise us? After all, this is the same party that leveraged us into the Vietnam conflict in a major way with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, the same party that instituted our last, inequitable draft, the Military Selective Service Act of '67, and the same party that just recently fell in line behind the Shrub to bring us the Patriot Act and the current Gulf War.

The Dems seem to be so damn afraid of looking weak that they will sacrifice the sons and daughters of their constituency. The way for the Dems to come across as being truly strong is to get up on their hind legs and stand up to this criminal regime. Fight them tooth and nail. If Bush wants a war, tell him no and back it up. If Bush wants the Patriot Act II, scream to high heavens about how it strips Americans' rights and fight it. If Bush wants anything period, fight it! But hell, these Dems today, their idea of fighting seems to be rolling over and pissing all over themselves trying to please the Shrub.

This is what you get when you've got two political parties controlled by the same corporate master. An echo chamber, where even the most outrageous ideas are passed into law, and the plight of the average American isn't even acknowledged. And while there are some individual Dems left who have fight and spirit left in them, but they're very few and disappearing fast, being replaced with these DLC/DNC New Dems who would have been called for what they really were forty years ago; Republicans.

[Shanty Oilish]

104. Democratic Party death wish. Insane. Evil.

The party would lose more than the youth vote. We boomers who have lost loved ones in Vietnam, or served and returned forever wounded, will abandon the party in droves if it endorses the draft.
Do I have a dog in this hunt? Yes, lying cold in their graves these past 30 years, quite a few of them.
Nothing would push me so far as to vote R, but nothing could induce me to vote D if it means a vote for the draft.