We need to give Arnold a chance

[Must_B_Free]

We can't shrink to the low moral ground of the Repukelikins. We need to respect our system of rules and give him the benefit of the doubt - he won within the rules.

To play crybaby with this is not flattering to us. It feeds a hungry opposition.

I prefer to emphasize the bright side - Arnold is a Republican, but he has come out as being rather liberal. I think if we support these positive points of Arnold, it will piss of the right and make them hate him.

California said yes to Arnold, but also
Yes to Choice
Yes to Gun Control
Yes to Gay Rights

Emphasize to the freeper types how this is a subversion of their core values. They were so desparate for some sembelence of a win that it hasn't even occurred to them that they just struck Fool's Gold!

Plus - any failure on Arnold's part will simply emphasize how stupid it was to pick someone with no experience.

This is a war of VALUES, and ours are the correct ones. We need to stand firm and let them destroy themselves. Hold on to the values of Democracy and don't let go. Don't stoop to the lowbrow slackjaw, drooling, limbot, freeper mentality.

[LastKnight]

1. well

at least thiers still a liberal in the gov's office... lol

-LK

[kwolf68]

2. Very good point

Arnold will be a tax cutter, and will probably create and even bigger mess than what he inherits, but at the end of the day its unlikely he will govern to placate the radical right.

[Rashind]

10. I don't think we'll see any tax cuts...

He'll probably have some stealth tax increases, which the democratic legislature will go along with because they know it is needed. There might be a minor stink over it, but anyone who makes too big a deal of it will be accused of finding fault with arnold at any cost.

We'll see a lot of california programs cut, and a lot of selling off state properties to private interests. The programs can always be reinstated, but selling to private interests is going to do some real, permenant damage to the state.

[cally]

3. Why???

He wanted the job let him figure it out with no help from any Dem. He doesn't have a chance of understanding unless current appointees help. I say they don't give advice at all. In a norman transition then they should help, when you execute a right wing power grab then you need to figure it out for yourself. And yes, Californians will suffer but I hope they wake up in the process.

[kainah]

14. what that ignores, cally

is that politics should only be a small part of this process. The other major element is POLICY. If you agree with Dem principles, then you agree that government can be a positive influence in the lives of people, especially the most vulnerable among us. But that requires actual policy debate and governance. When it is all politics and no policy, that simply plays into the hands of the repugs who DON'T believe in governance.

It's fine for us to sit on the sidelines and rub our hands with glee as Arnold fails, for lack of understanding the way to get the job done. That may bring some partisan joy but, remember, the ones who will really suffer in that scenario are not Arnold & the repugs but the poor, the elderly, the homeless, the sick, the children & everyone who needs government to make their communities and lives better and safer.

The politics is over ... let's let policy take the lead now.

[candy331]

41. Well you're

speaking exactly like the Repugs want you to. They say Dems are not tough enough and I guess from your vantage point they are correct. Arnold does not deserve any credit he slid in under short time lime
recall because I do not believe and he knows he would not have won in a regular election. Why did he not run before recall because he is a selfish, egotistical bore. He is not there to help the poor unless it is poor old Arnold. Yes, I hope California gets everything they got coming to them and more and this will set the pattern for people to elect qualified people and not actors who have nothing better to do.

[kainah]

49. actually, repugs hate it when you talk policy

all they know how to do is play politics and so when you discuss policy with voters, it is exactly what the repugs despise. I spent last summer & fall talking policy to all the repubs I know in Wyoming. The result? Our new Democratic governor....

I have no good feelings towards Arnold or toward this recall, which I think was absolutely another piece of the repug anti-democracy efforts. But that's not a reason to throw the state to the wolves, IMO.

I suspect he's going to have plenty of problems all by himself and I don't see any reason why Dems have to play dirty as well. Actually, I think the repugs love to see Dems try to get in the dirt with them because they know we don't really have the kind of killer instinct that is necessary to do it successfully. They will always win in the gutter. I believe our only hope is to remind people that government does good things in their lives and, just as they wouldn't hire a non-plumber to put in their new bathroom, they shouldn't hire non-politicians to run their government.

[cally]

60. Kainah, I'm thinking that there is no way to fix this

mistke without letting the failure happen. The repugs are running on no government so let it happen. I know who will suffer but I also know it is best in the long term. I don't think any dem should try to bail Arnie out for this idiocy. It's the only way to solve the problem in the end.

[Judson39]

83. Some in here would rather fight than work for a better life for people

they wear the tag of a Democrat but have no compassion for people.

[library_max]

4. You're right, of course

We need to give him a chance. It's tempting to "fight fire with fire" and talk recall, but we need to remember that recall is for cases of serious malfeasance or actual lawbreaking. Just because the Republicans can't respect the rules doesn't give us an excuse. We don't want to be hypocritical.

I wish I could share your optimism about Schwarzenegger's likely performance, however. He seems highly beholden to corporate interests, however "socially liberal" he appears. Even worse, like Jesse Ventura, he doesn't need the gig, and is likely to get bored with the actual duties of the office in a short period of time.

[Hawkeye-X]

13. Looking at my crystal ball of the Future

Arnold's popularity by December 31st, 2003:

9%.

Voters will state that they "regret" recalling Davis and should have let him finish his job.

Hawkeye-X

[librechik]

5. "Arnold" is merely the lead character in a farce

only later will we realize who is directing. The idea that "Arnold" has a strong set of beliefs and policies that he will institute is a pathetic illusion. All that really matters is that now the Pukes control California, Texas, New York and Florida. Election 2004 is an oxymoron.

[Nay]

30. Exactly. If Arnold loves power, and we know that's what turns him on,

he will dance to the national repub tune to get his $$ and stay in office. All else is immaterial.

[mbartko]

51. Sigh....

"...All that really matters is that now the Pukes control California, Texas, New York and Florida"

HOW? And in what sense? Because of ONE GUY, one decidedly sitting-on-the-fence guy?? Did he wave a magic wand and is everyone in California government now a Republican? Does Arnold have mind control over the voters?

Show me some substantiation that having a Republican governor dictates that the state will vote Republican in the presidential election. Show me where local and state partisanship automatically equals the same partisanship at the Federal level. I live in a state with two long-ensconsced Republican senators and a Democratic governor. What does this mean? Who "controls" my state?

Folks, if we don't toughen up and stop wringing our hands at every little perceived setback - and I stress "perceived" because there are several ways to interpret this result, and not all of them are bad - then you're right, we might as well go stick our heads in the sand and concede. OR WE CAN CONTINUE TO FIGHT. But victory is not going to come by fretting every little stumbling block and convincing people that it's hopeless and they might as well just stay home on election night, because that's EXACTLY just what many people will (and often) do. And then we WILL lose, NOT due to the Republicans, but in self-fulfilling prophesy.

/rant=off

P.S. This is not meant as a personal attack on you. Let's not give up. We can't afford it.

[kainah]

57. Welcome to DU, mbartko!

And thanks for the thoughtful contribution. I couldn't agree more. I think Arnold and the repugs should be reminding themselves constantly today of the old saying "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it." I remain totally unconvinced that this is a good outcome for the repugs. I am convinced that it was a bad outcome for the normal democratic process but that train left the station a couple months ago. And, in any case, I have much better things to worry about and work on than this.

I, too, am in a state with an entrenched Republican majority and a Democratic governor. If any of the Dem candidates think Dave Freudenthal can deliver them Wyoming, I sure hope they aren't the one to get the nomination!

[oasis]

6. I'll give Arnold and GOP election theives "a chance" to kiss my ass.

:evilgrin:

[ibegurpard]

16. My sentiments exactly

No evil grin, though. I'm as serious as a heart attack. I gave Bush a chance and like they say "Fool me once, shame on me...won't get fooled again."

[SharonAnn]

17. Me too. They think they're so great - they can show it!

I certainly wouldn't recommend sabotaging anything but there's no reason to help either.

It's kind of like enabling an addict. If you help him avoid the consequences of his actions, it'll just enable him to do more of the same.

He and the California voters have to face the consequences and no one should enable him or them.

After all, they'll never figure out what needs to be done if we help them avoid the consequences of their actions.

[kainah]

7. I agree, Must_B_Free

We need to stay with some set of core principles. If the recall of Davis was wrong, a recall of Ahhnold would be even worse since he hasn't even had a chance to prove what he can (or can't) do. I also believe you are absolutely right that, as much as anything, this election proves how totally without principle the repug party is. They embraced this man for two reasons, and two reasons only: he had an R after his name and they believed he could be elected. Otherwise, he appears to share very few of their supposedly bedrock values. One of the most interesting things I saw last night was the exit polling that showed that, by a wide margin, the majority of voters believed McClintock was the most principled man in the race. So while 53% (I think) of the voters believed that, only 1 million actually voted for him. What an indictment of American politics!

[GR]

8. No, Arnold Is A Big Liar Like Bush....

He has the same arrogant, macho, contentless style and hides from the press, just like Dubya.

His debate performance was shameless and the people who elected him deserve just what he brings them.

I think he will be a terrible governor.

[Must_B_Free]

23. Me too - but let him

our system is more important than a passing storm. Let Hurricane Arnold peter out on his own, now that it has hit land.

It's very Aikido in tactic - you use your enemy's potential enemy against him. In American terms, it's called "give them enough rope".

The real battlefield is cultural. Hold on to that. The rest will pass - ejected rapidly like a belly full of dried peaches.

[stopbush]

9. Give him a chance to fulfill his promises

from the campaign trail; give him a chance to answer the sexual battery charges; give him the chance to present the mysterious solutions to CA's woes like he promised he would do; sure.

Give him a free ride, roll over and play dead, act like he did anything but allow himself to be a puppet in a repig coup. NO FUCKIN WAY!!!

[displacedtexan]

15. excellent points!

and we must give him a chance to be the enron $9B debt 'eraser.'

[nannygoat]

11. He's a serial groper, alleged sexual harrasser

I say NO mercy. I can't even believe he would want this job, he's so used to just showing up and picking up a check. I predict he'll tire of it quickly.

[Must_B_Free]

25. That's SOOOO freeper , though

Let the freepers be freepers - I'm not going to become one of them.

THAT is the onlu way we can lose.

[nannygoat]

32. Some of those allegations are serious crimes, MBF!

And I know you won't recite the freeper line that Ahnold's transgressions are the same as Clinton's, right?

[kainah]

52. the women he assaulted should file civil suits

if the statute of limitations has run out on their ability to file criminal charges.

That's a very separate thing. I certainly won't say that what Ahhnold is accused of doing is the same as Clinton -- although similar charges were leveled against Clinton by Kathleen Willey & Juannita Broaddrick -- but I will say that they are similar in that neither of them deals with the acts of PUBLIC OFFICE. And, the women have every right -- and arguably the obligation to their fellow citizens -- to file a civil suit against him.

[nannygoat]

59. Good resource about some of the women who accused Clinton

AN AGE OF PROPAGANDA (PART 1)! Matthews groped for ways to help Arnold. We found it a sign of the times:
http://dailyhowler.com/dh100603.shtml

[maxanne]

40. in other words,

what happens to women isn't important. The concerns of women are trivial, freeper like things.

Your concern for half the world's population is touching.

[Democrats unite]

12. No we don't!

eom

[JackSwift]

18. Folks, there's a reason Sargent and Eunice are smiling

so damn much. Let's wait and find out why.

In the meantime, remember that the turnout was huge, so the fool was not elected by only a few voters. We might not like it, but the electorate does, and even if what they do is stupid (and I think this is stupid) it's now our government.

[Fozzledick]

19. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

If he can depose an elected governor for no reason other than partisan opportunism than he can be deposed for the same reason.

The main reason for the mess that California is in (other than the general collapse of the U.S. economy from Bush's policies) is that the Republicans in the California legislature have exploited the 2/3 supermajority rule for passing any revenue bill to obstruct and sabotage all attempts to deal with the state's budget deficit. He deserves exactly the same degree of cooperation from the Democratic majority.

[L4d]

110. I keep thinking this may be a blessing in disguise

If those Dems in the California Assembly and Senate can stick together, they can make Arnie's life a living hell. They can make him do things, politically, that will drive the Freepers nuts.

Personally, I believe the Cali Dems ought to do to Arnie what Congressional Republicans did to Clinton. And plenty is there to go after. I don't care if we should be better. The hell with being better.

Payback is a bitch.

[VOX]

20. No. Arnold is a * family friend. Don't fall for the surface gloss...

Arnold worked for Poppy...and just who do you think he'll endorse for president next year? Hell, he'll be a guest of honor at the GOP '04 convention in NYC -- who better to talk trash to "terrists" than a steroid-inflated mock-action hero?

Before the month of October is out, I'm betting that * and Arnold spend some time together, complete with copious photo ops.

Sorry, but Arnold, and right-winger Pete Wilson, who ran his campaign, are the *enemy.*

[eileen_d]

21. Like the GOP gave Clinton a chance? n/t

[maxanne]

22. sorry dude

I do not have to give a sexual predator a chance - and quite frankly I resent the suggestion that I should.

This is a war of values - and it's about time Democratic men stood behind Democratic women and shouted outrage, LOUDLY.

[Must_B_Free]

69. rezmutt, maxanne - must give him a chance

its the system. They can't destroy our system - only we can let go if it.

Give him a chance to be a miserable failure before you dub him such, only then will it be credible.

If you don't give him a chance, then you can't argue that your candidate deserves a chance when he wins.

It's the system that is at stake and our reputation as Democrats in politics. If we toss out fairness, then we can't expect it back. If we tow the high moral line, it still remains as the benchmark. If we erase that line, we got nuthin'.

Don't attack him in the way that they attacked Clinton. If we become Freepers we will be losers. Hold on to the values, culture and system. The bully power will do itself in.

[maxanne]

85. question for you, must be free

If your mother were raped, would you suggest to her that he was innocent until proven guilty? Would you suggest she give him a chance?

To suggest the concerns of women are trivial and freeper like is disgusting indeed and go against the values I, and many other Democrats hold dear - both men and women.

You are the one who is tossing out fairness - to the other half of the population.

Why not skip the fancy dancing and just tell us that we're second class citizens here for the groping and amusement of the male population? Admit that the concerns of women are trivial in the big male political picture, as far as you're concerned. :puke:

[Must_B_Free]

88. They had every chance to take legal action

It sounds like Guv Gropinator uses the "slapped face" technique to fish for sack meat. Yeah he's a cad with no credentials, a phony GOP tool. But our system is more important than that.

Watch the Grapes of Wrath. There is a scene were the big money guys want to break up the populists by sending a plant into their dance party to start a fight. "Once the first punch is thrown, nobody will know who started it" they say.

The people get tipped off and when the guy throws a punch they all grab him and keep a fight from ensuing. The cops show up that moment looking for they fight they planned, and go home empty handed.

What the Bushites are tryin to do is take us down with them. They are going down hard. If we stoop to their level, then we have started a fist fight and they will send in the cops and steal our moral high ground.

Don't take the bait.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxanne]

103. as a woman

the issues of women's equality and safety are of paramount importance to me. It is evident that they are not even registering on your radar. Fine. But don't come in here and tell me that's the moral high ground. Don't you dare come in and tell me that is a "freeper" concern. It's extremely depressing to me to see so many men here at DU behaving like the worst sort of dittoheads on this subject.

[Julien Sorel]

24. Arnold deserves somewhat less of a chance than Gray Davis

got.

[Jinx]

26. Arnold might be a friend, not an enemy

I don't understand the animosity towards Arnold. Just because he has an R next to his name? Arnold is to the left of a lot of democrats!

So he'll probably help campaign for Bush in 2004. I doubt it'll have an effect, especially if his handling of California fails and Republicans get the blame.

But what's the worst that could happen, really? I mean, really? Like Must_B said, Arnold is pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-environment... WHERE IS THE DOWNSIDE?

The R after his name means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Arnold is a democrat who doesn't want to admit it. Being a 'republican' in Hollywood has helped him stand out for years.

Let's accept it for what it is - a gimmick.

[ibegurpard]

33. Your assurances are SO comforting.

:eyes:
close personal friend of Arnold, are you? you know for a fact that he's not in bed with the people who set this recall up? Whatever.

[nannygoat]

35. Because he lied to get where he is today

the same way that * lied to people to get elected. I heard Ahnold say he was a 'conservative' at one of his events in the campaign. He is now beholden to the right-wing repuke machine that helped get him elected.

[Jinx]

46. is that so?

Bullcrap... The "right-wing" voted AGAINST Arnold for Tom McClintock.

[KamaAina]

37. The R after his name means nothing? Then why did he use it?

On this bizarre recall ballot, it would have been just as easy for Ahh-nuld to get on the ballot as an Independent as it was as a Repuke. He can't even hide behind the fig leaf of ballot access like Mikey Moneybags Bloomberg did in NYC (then started forking out big bucks to the RNC).

He made a choice to embrace the R and all that it stands for, in exchange for something (like the "something" that caused Issa to drop out of the race in tears)...

[maxanne]

39. let's give him the same chance

he gives women.

Where is the outrage by liberal men? Why do liberal men consistantly turn their backs on the way other men treat the female gender - and then tell us it isn't important, policy is more important...and women are supposed to go along docilely and help some MAN get elected.

fornicate that noise

[Southsideirish]

27. This is a joke right ? I know you can't possibly be serious.

They just ripped us a "new one" and you want to do what???? Tee Hee - give him a .....what??? Oh, you are a card!

[Redleg]

28. I agree- we should give him the same chance the GOP gave Clinton

when he first took office. Remember how nice that was? <Sarcasm>

[Must_B_Free]

70. But my point is - we're better than that.

If we attack him on baseless issues, we have no clout. Let him do himself in and then hold himself accountable for it.

[Redleg]

106. His relationship with Ken Lay and his groping, alleged and admitted

are baseless issues?

[Must_B_Free]

109. no I'm referring to groping and nazi allegations

these aren't going to influence voters.

The groping charges are serious, but in my opinion a dead issue at this point, unless someone sues him.

[Kolesar]

29. Gray Davis committed no crime, he should still be Governor

If Arnold was a decent man, he would have campaigned against the recall instead of stepping into the race.

[salin]

31. we were supposed to give W a chance, to.

and he immediately started reversing executive orders from Clinton on Workplace safety and environmental and health safety. He stomped all over Kyoto and rammed a voucher leverage education bill. He then rammed us all into deficits through an irresponsible gigantic tax cut that primarly benefited the very wealthy. We were not prepared for the speed and multiple fronts that they came gunning for government.

Like Arnold, Bush ran as a moderate. But his advisors and cronies are extremists.

Like Bush, Arnold is turning to old political hands as key advisors - headed by... extremist Pete Wilson.

To give him a chance - is to not be vigilantly aware of who he is placing in appointments in all departments of state government. It is to be unprepared for an onslaught of Wilson inspired legislation.

Like the bushco - the wilsongang has been out of power for five years (bushco was 8). Many have joined think tanks and spent almost all of their time figuring out exactly which administrative rule changes, which technicalities in laws that bore most folks, and which broad sweeping changes are needed - in each and every area of government. Like Bushco they will be poised to move immediately and on multiple fronts.

Just how will Arnie solve the budget crisis? He fired buffet for mentioning taxes. Wait... its bushco time.. More Tax Cuts.. and magic language that suddenly makes deficits, in Arnie's hands, look intentional and desirable. Favorite programs that cost money but work to restrain business from environmental degredation, or worker safety or you name it - will be put on the chopping block in the name of saving money - but will be done more to give the advantage to businesses. Indeed probably more money will be given to those same businesses in tax cuts and credits than will be saved through cutting budget items for the regulation (eg they will give to businesses - MORE money than is saved by cutting regulatory agencies.) So the deficit is bigger - the businesses get more goodies - and the tax payers end up with MORE debt and worse services and standard of living.

One can be civil, but be wary as a hawk of every move from day one. The foxes just got into the chickenhouse.

[Must_B_Free]

71. My point exactly -

we did give him the chance and he did himself in.

W is a one-termer.

W has done more damage to the GOP then any democratic critic could have done.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. But if we recall him that is playing by the rules as well

.

[shugah]

115. what a grand idea!

:eyes:

[ComerPerro]

36. Screw it, I think you are being WAY too naieve

We can't shrink to the low moral ground of the Repukelikins. We need to respect our system of rules and give him the benefit of the doubt - he won within the rules.

So did Gore, but he isn't in the White House


Arnold is a Republican, but he has come out as being rather liberal. I think if we support these positive points of Arnold, it will piss of the right and make them hate him.


You are dreaming. First, Arnold is not even part liberal. He loves money too much. He is a libertarian psycho. And do you honestly think the right will hate him? That would mean they would admidt their failing, which they NEVER do. Plus, most of them have good reasons to hate Bush, but their support for him is still very strong.


Look, we know what we stand for, we know that its right to take the high ground and follow the rules, we know that we belive in every Americans rights.

But the right is full of ravenous, Godless (they say they believe in one, but they are full of shit), hateful, racist, sexist, classit assholes who would kill their own mothers for fifty bucks. Worse off, they are liars. And they tell very appealing lies.

The high ground gets us NOWHERE.


When does the recall start?

[noiretextatique]

38. well said....he gets no fucking "chances"

i am immensely more qualified to run the state than is the gropinator...the difference is, he's a celebrity, and i am not. that is the ONLY difference. no one will give me a "chance." perhaps i'll feel differently in a few days...but now, i'm still FURIOUS!!!!

:nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke:

[ComerPerro]

55. Damn hollywood elites

Can't those celebraties just shut up?

[noiretextatique]

62. they can TALK all the want...but how is it that a man with ZERO experience

running anything, except his mouth in "b" movies is "elected" governor of a state with the 5th largest economy in the world? it makes NO SENSE?!? sure, he's only a front man...but MY GOD :wtf: are people THINKING!?

[Character Assassin]

44. And you don't know what you're talking about

First, Arnold is not even part liberal. He loves money too much. He is a libertarian psycho.

Kindly detail exactly how he is libertarian.

Please be very precise.

[ComerPerro]

53. Ok

He is supposedly socially liberal, and is very publicly fiscally conservative (even though, personally, he spends like crazy).

I see him as a libertarian because he thinks people can do what they want as long as they leave him alone (supports gay rights, for example). But he does not like taxes at all, and won't let the government have his "hard earned" money.

[Character Assassin]

56. That in and of itself is not libertarian

Is he for the legalization of drugs?
Is he for ending all welfare?
Is he for radically reducing the size and scope of the gov't?
Etc....

Nothing I have seen indicates that he subscribes to those positions.

[ComerPerro]

61. About the "reducing the size of government"

No one meets this.

By those standards, no one who runs for public office is libertarian or conservative.

[Character Assassin]

72. No one who runs for office is libertarian, and conservatives lie...

when they say they're for smaller gov't.

They have zero record to back up that claim.

[Must_B_Free]

73. "The high ground gets us NOWHERE."

if we give up the high ground, then we have nothing.

The high ground is who we are and why we win. If we give that up, then what do we have?

[ibegurpard]

75. Survival of our political system?

Republicans aren't playing war GAMES with us anymore...those guns are loaded with the real thing.

[Closer]

42. This is a prime example

of why Democrats are losing every time and will continue to lose. We don't know how to fight. We're too nice. We fall victim yet again, in this horrible assault on democracy known as the recall, and you say "give the man a chance."


:eyes:

I say GIMME A FREAKIN BREAK!!!!!!!!! And grow some balls and fight back!

[Must_B_Free]

74. High gound is an end game

Don't know how to fight? We have allowed W to destroy himself. If we fight he gets stronger. He feeds off of our actions by spinning them in the press. Leave him alone to make the failure ALL his own.

We can't fight fire with fire in this case. We have to maintain identity. We be rock and let the fire burn itself out.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxanne]

45. Skittles

I hope you won't be offended if I declare my undying love for you.

:*

[noiretextatique]

50. likewise...

:loveya: Skittles!

[nini]

63. Me Too! Skittles ROCKS!!

:loveya:

[cally]

66. Me too

:loveya:

[Capn Sunshine]

90. much love for Skittles at DU.

:yourock:

[dpbrown]

47. The "recall" was outside the spirit of the "rules"

Arnold did not win by the rules. He was put up by the Republicans in a mockery of the law in California, in a truncated race funded by a rich Republican to overturn the results of a general election.

He's a thug, a punk, obsessively objectivizes women, brags about his gang-banging libidinous excesses, and wants to be idolized without question, using Hitler as his guide.

We don't need to give Arnold a chance at all. He has no experience in politics, on top of his being a lout and a serial sexual batterer.

Putting Arnold in the governor's seat is putting Bush in the governor's seat, and disrespects both the office and the state by vaulting another Bush toadie into power.

Electing Arnold to be governor with no experience, is like voting for Gray Davis as bodybuilder champion when he never lifted a weight in his life.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Character Assassin]

48. That's rather ironic that you mention spirit of the 'rules'

Arnold did not win by the rules. He was put up by the Republicans in a mockery of the law in California, in a truncated race funded by a rich Republican to overturn the results of a general election.

We have this little document here in CA called a state consitution, which provides the legal basis for overturning the results of a general election.

Can you please point out where either the CA constitution or its spirit was violated?

He's a thug, a punk, obsessively objectivizes women, brags about his gang-banging libidinous excesses, and wants to be idolized without question, using Hitler as his guide.

We don't need to give Arnold a chance at all. He has no experience in politics, on top of his being a lout and a serial sexual batterer.

So first you bemoan violations of the 'rules' but you have no problem casting allegations made against him as actual fact, violating the 'rule' of innocent until proven guilty.

Putting Arnold in the governor's seat is putting Bush in the governor's seat, and disrespects both the office and the state by vaulting another Bush toadie into power.

Pure histrionic speculation. He is a man of extreme wealth, and is beholden to no other poltical figure.

Electing Arnold to be governor with no experience, is like voting for Gray Davis as bodybuilder champion when he never lifted a weight in his life.

Say, how's Jesse Ventura?

[VOX]

65. Without GOP million$, this recall, legal or not, never would have happened

Not to mention their concerted, coordinated effort to ramrod this thing through. Petition-signature gatherers were paid a bounty per name obtained. This entire event never would have occured without the funding and efforts of the right wing.

As for your characterization of Arnold as "...a man of extreme wealth, and...beholden to no other poltical figure," I must disagree. If not exactly "beholden," he is certainly in bed, and deeply, with the right wing. He is a longtime friend of the Bush family; he worked for George Bush I. He met with Ken Lay at the height of the energy crisis in CA. The Hummer Division of GM donated heavily to his campaign.

He also is a very good friend of and fund raiser for Orrin Hatch, Senate Judiciary chariman, and this, I believe, speaks to the future aspirations of our new governor:

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10042003/utah/98550.asp
10/3/03
The Salt Lake Tribune

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Orrin Hatch says Arnold Schwarzenegger should not be judged on past improper advances towards women but as the devoted husband he is today, adding that the foreign-born GOP candidate for California governor also should have the opportunity to run for president under a constitutional amendment Hatch is pushing.

"We have to look at people who they are today, not what they may have done wrong in the past," Hatch told the National Press Club Friday. "There isn't a person in this room or anywhere else in the world who is perfect, who has lived perfectly."

The movie-star body builder stumped for Hatch's 1994 re-election campaign when he joined the Utah Republican at an awards ceremony at a Salt Lake City fitness equipment factory and taunted "hasta la vista, baby" to Hatch's Democratic challenger, Pat Shea.
<snip>

[dpbrown]

68. What a weak attempt at sarcastically exposing "irony"

With a legislative document, there is a little thing called "legislative history" from which lawyers and historians devine the intent of rules laid out. Whether or not there is existing legislative history for the California Constitution or not, there is universal agreement among scholars that the "spirit" of a piece of legislation is not embodied solely within the legislative document itself. For a partisan to flaunt the legislative document alone in an attempt to deny the existence of the spirit of legislation, or in a one-sided attempt to justify the misuse of statute, is transparently unsupportable, and betrays either ignorance or a hidden agenda.

California decided to become a highly populist state, and that led directly to Republicans misusing the legislative requirement of 2/3 approval for budgets to put Davis in trouble (and hey, if an $8 Billion deficit is worth recall, an $8 Trillion projected deficit is worth prison so let's lock up the Poseur Prince, Bush the Stunted, right now). Republicans then used the crisis they created with their governor, Pete Wilson, opening the door for the energy rape of California by Enron, and the budget crisis created by the Republicans in the legislature, to stir up enough popular support for overturning a legitimate election.

They started at the mandatory minimum, six months, after Davis had taken office, so there was absolutely no way that Davis had had a chance to fully perform in the term to which he was legitimately elected, but even then he had already cut the deficit by something like $30 billion, eliminating all but something like $8 billion of it, without the help of the Republicans in the legislature. Californians are pathetic to choose form over substance with Arnold.

Davis was not the cause of the budget crisis (and if the chief executive is responsible, then by analogy, and by sheer size of deficit overseen, Bush should be in prison - see above comment).

The Republicans then put up an empty shell, devoid of experience, and, it turns out, full of sociopathic obsessive objectivization of women, and a narcissistic need to be adored like Hitler was. In a longer campaign, Arnold would have been exposed, which is why he didn't run against Davis in the real election.

Arnold's exploits are not mere "allegations." He bragged about it in print. He told a magazine interviewer about participating in an orgy with other bodybuilders, noting that "everybody jumped on" the woman involved and "took her upstairs where we all got together." He added that not every muscleman participated in the gang bang, "just the guys who can fuck in front of other guys. Not everybody can do that. Some think that they don't have a big-enough cock, so they can't get a hard-on."

Schwarzenegger's lewd talk appeared in the August 1977 issue of Oui, an adult magazine published by Playboy Enterprises until 1981 and still available today on newsstands. The five-page Schwarzenegger interview was conducted by author Peter Manso and flagged on the magazine's cover with the headline, "Arnold Schwarzenegger on the Sex Secrets of Bodybuilders."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldinter1.html

His admiration of Hitler is also "on the record" in outtakes from interviews conducted around the movie "Pumping Iron."

His admiration of Kurt Waldheim, former Nazi, is "on the record."

His threat to Arianna Huffington in the (scripted) gubernatorial debate, regarding shoving her head in a toilet as a role for her in his next film, is "on the record."

This crackpot "innocent until proven guilty" b.s. is completely unsupportable. The guy's a creep and a woman-hating narcissist. He's proved it on the record over and over. Arnold behaves with obsessive objectivization and maximum depersonalization of women, forcing himself on people less than half his size, bragging about his gang-banging feats of libidinous excess, and seeking unquestioning adoration using Hitler as his guide.

The "beholden" comment is complete wishful thinking, too. He's already met with Karl Rove and Ken Lay and both those meetings are a matter of public record, although what they discussed, of course, isn't. At a minimum, he'll get Enron off the hook for the $8 billion that Enron owes it for the Enron energy rape, and that'll be just as bad for California in the budget area. Who knows what social programs he'll cut, schools he'll close, or how many police and firefighters he'll lay off.

And finally, what a limp attempt at sarcasm with the Jesse Ventura quip. Jesse Ventura served as mayor of Brooklyn Park, the seventh largest city in Minnesota, before running for governor, and had infinitely more executive experience, qualifications, and demeanor than the near-rapist sexual batterer and Hitler-wannabe that Californians just let ooze under the door.

We don't owe Arnold anything. He's just another empty-headed tool of the Republicans, and so is anyone who wants to stand up for him.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Character Assassin]

89. What a weak attempt at mischaracterzing an attempt as weak

With a legislative document, there is a little thing called "legislative history" from which lawyers and historians devine the intent of rules laid out. Whether or not there is existing legislative history for the California Constitution or not, there is universal agreement among scholars that the "spirit" of a piece of legislation is not embodied solely within the legislative document itself. For a partisan to flaunt the legislative document alone in an attempt to deny the existence of the spirit of legislation, or in a one-sided attempt to justify the misuse of statute, is transparently unsupportable, and betrays either ignorance or a hidden agenda.

Spare me any attempted lectures, Professor. I'm familiar with what is meant by the spirit of the law.

I do not consider what was done a 'mis-use' of the law. Was it probably a stupid move, politically? You bet. But because you don't like it and the person it's put in Sacremento now doesn't magically make it an abuse of the process, nor does it indicate a 'hidden' agenda. The Republicans wanted a governor running the state in a fucked-up manner out. They acted upon this notion. There are no smoke and mirrors.

California decided to become a highly populist state, and that led directly to Republicans misusing the legislative requirement of 2/3 approval for budgets to put Davis in trouble (and hey, if an $8 Billion deficit is worth recall, an $8 Trillion projected deficit is worth prison so let's lock up the Poseur Prince, Bush the Stunted, right now). Republicans then used the crisis they created with their governor, Pete Wilson, opening the door for the energy rape of California by Enron, and the budget crisis created by the Republicans in the legislature, to stir up enough popular support for overturning a legitimate election.

I'm sorry, that is bullshit. Davis is not completely to blame for the entire crisis, but it is raving self-delusion not to see the his has contributed enormously to it by maintain spending levels at clearly unsupportable level and adding to state payroll while the tax base was crashing. There are 20,000 more jobs now than there was when he took office, which is about an 11% increase.

They started at the mandatory minimum, six months, after Davis had taken office, so there was absolutely no way that Davis had had a chance to fully perform in the term to which he was legitimately elected, but even then he had already cut the deficit by something like $30 billion, eliminating all but something like $8 billion of it, without the help of the Republicans in the legislature. Californians are pathetic to choose form over substance with Arnold.

They did it legally, and he was on a roll continuing to screw up the finances of the state that he had already been doing before his reelection.

Davis was not the cause of the budget crisis (and if the chief executive is responsible, then by analogy, and by sheer size of deficit overseen, Bush should be in prison - see above comment).

Bush is irrelevant here, and Davis most definitely was a major cause of the budget crisis. Any remotely honest analysis of the numbers and his actions reflects this.

The Republicans then put up an empty shell, devoid of experience, and, it turns out, full of sociopathic obsessive objectivization of women, and a narcissistic need to be adored like Hitler was. In a longer campaign, Arnold would have been exposed, which is why he didn't run against Davis in the real election.

A person with a great deal of experience, a careerist, helped get us into this mess. I hardly think lack of experience is a disqualifier.

Arnold's exploits are not mere "allegations." He bragged about it in print. He told a magazine interviewer about participating in an orgy with other bodybuilders, noting that "everybody jumped on" the woman involved and "took her upstairs where we all got together." He added that not every muscleman participated in the gang bang, "just the guys who can fuck in front of other guys. Not everybody can do that. Some think that they don't have a big-enough cock, so they can't get a hard-on."

I read the interview. Participating in a gang bang is not a crime or abuse of anyone unless the gangbangee is unwilling. There is no indication of this, so your attempt to portray this as evidence of something nefarious is hollow.

Schwarzenegger's lewd talk appeared in the August 1977 issue of Oui, an adult magazine published by Playboy Enterprises until 1981 and still available today on newsstands. The five-page Schwarzenegger interview was conducted by author Peter Manso and flagged on the magazine's cover with the headline, "Arnold Schwarzenegger on the Sex Secrets of Bodybuilders."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldinter1.html

So the hell what? Everyone at some time or another has engaged in what could be labelled as 'lewd' language.

His admiration of Hitler is also "on the record" in outtakes from interviews conducted around the movie "Pumping Iron."

As a young, dumb hick. It is reasonable to assume that since he has given so much to Jewish foundations, this doesn't reflect his current mindset.

His admiration of Kurt Waldheim, former Nazi, is "on the record."

A wedding toast vs. millions to Jewish organizations. Yep, we've got a died-in-the-whole SS thug here.

His threat to Arianna Huffington in the (scripted) gubernatorial debate, regarding shoving her head in a toilet as a role for her in his next film, is "on the record."

Right. She was in his face, he got in hers. That's politics.

This crackpot "innocent until proven guilty" b.s. is completely unsupportable.

It's the spirit of our form of law. Or do you consider that bullshit?

The guy's a creep and a woman-hating narcissist. He's proved it on the record over and over. Arnold behaves with obsessive objectivization and maximum depersonalization of women, forcing himself on people less than half his size, bragging about his gang-banging feats of libidinous excess, and seeking unquestioning adoration using Hitler as his guide.

I see you're not unaquainted with hyperbole.

The "beholden" comment is complete wishful thinking, too. He's already met with Karl Rove and Ken Lay and both those meetings are a matter of public record, although what they discussed, of course, isn't. At a minimum, he'll get Enron off the hook for the $8 billion that Enron owes it for the Enron energy rape, and that'll be just as bad for California in the budget area. Who knows what social programs he'll cut, schools he'll close, or how many police and firefighters he'll lay off.

More allegations and empty supposition, not to mention that he is on the record as stating he wants to increase funds to schools. You seem to take him at his word for the worst things, but refuse to recognize it for the better ones.

And finally, what a limp attempt at sarcasm with the Jesse Ventura quip. Jesse Ventura served as mayor of Brooklyn Park, the seventh largest city in Minnesota, before running for governor, and had infinitely more executive experience, qualifications, and demeanor than the near-rapist sexual batterer and Hitler-wannabe that Californians just let ooze under the door.

Suffice it to say that I don't buy into your Chicken Little mindset, and being a mayor in town doesn't necessarily make a qualified individual for governor of an entire state.

We don't owe Arnold anything. He's just another empty-headed tool of the Republicans, and so is anyone who wants to stand up for him.

I stand up for rational analysis and inquiry based on available data, not foamy-mouthed 'sky is falling' hysteria.

[dpbrown]

99. Whether or not you think the decision is rational doesn't make it good

The decision to oust Davis falls into the category of "legal technicality" and going great guns defending Arnold, a person with no experience, even going to the point of defending his "gang-banging" derisive abuse of women, is beyond the pale.

You hang your entire argument on the finer points of Californians being within their legal rights to recall Davis.

That wasn't the point.

Recalling Davis undermined the idea of recall. Davis wasn't recalled because he was a bad executive, otherwise the people wouldn't have chosen someone with no executive experience to replace him.

The whole recall idea in California was a bad idea for democracy, whether or not you think it's a chicken little argument or not.

I think Arnold is a woman-hater, and you think that's okay.

It's not. Davis shouldn't have been recalled, and if he was, then California shouldn't have chosen an empty misogynistic narcissist like Arnold. And any executive experience certainly does make one more qualified than someone with no executive experience.

Suffice it to say that I don't buy any of your justifications for supporting a woman-hating narcissist with no experience as the chief executive of the eighth largest economy in the world.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Character Assassin]

102. I have never implied that it is 'good'.

The decision to oust Davis falls into the category of "legal technicality" and going great guns defending Arnold, a person with no experience, even going to the point of defending his "gang-banging" derisive abuse of women, is beyond the pale.

It most certainly is not 'beyond the pale', because I don't consider consensual sexual activites a form of abuse, derisive or otherwise. Nor do I accept that exercising a constitutional right is somehow a technicality.

I am defending the constitution and through that, the law. The only defense I make of Schwarzenegger is that of being innocent until proven guility. If this makes you uncomfortable, it's not my problem.

You hang your entire argument on the finer points of Californians being within their legal rights to recall Davis.

That is not a 'finer' point.

That wasn't the point.

Recalling Davis undermined the idea of recall. Davis wasn't recalled because he was a bad executive, otherwise the people wouldn't have chosen someone with no executive experience to replace him.

He most certainly was a bad executive, and, again, having no political experience is not a disqualifier. You overlook that extensive political experience in the individual that held the office didn't prevent him from contributing to the sorry fiscal shape that the state is in now.

The whole recall idea in California was a bad idea for democracy, whether or not you think it's a chicken little argument or not.

The will of the electorate, based on the Constitution, is not a bad idea for democracy.

I think Arnold is a woman-hater, and you think that's okay.

No, I think that it's OK that you think he is. I reserve judgement until more is known and proven.

It's not. Davis shouldn't have been recalled, and if he was, then California shouldn't have chosen an empty misogynistic narcissist like Arnold.

You disagree with the votes Californians cast and who they chose. Fine.

And any executive experience certainly does make one more qualified than someone with no executive experience.

President Eisenhauer didn't seem to have a problem.

Suffice it to say that I don't buy any of your justifications for supporting a woman-hating narcissist with no experience as the chief executive of the eighth largest economy in the world.

But you did justify having the chief executive of that economy with plenty of experience help drive it into the poor house.

[dpbrown]

107. I never implied the sky was falling

And I disagree with the degree to which Davis was responsible for the fiscal mess California got into.

And I think that Arnold is way further into his woman-hating ways than merely innocent until proven guilty. So much so that he refused to run against Davis in a real election, because he knows how many women there are who can out him.

I think the decision was wrong in California to remove Davis. I think it was ill-motivated, and I think the Republicans who paid millions of dollars to get Davis didn't do it with the best of intentions, whether you think California is better off without Davis or not.

So just because the system in California was ripe for rigging, I think that the Republicans took advantage of that ripeness without the best interests of Californians in mind.

And I think the Eisenhower example fails because being a five-star general arguably gives one more executive experience than just being an actor always at the command of a director or an agent. I think Arnold's "experience" is more likely to have him trained to be a good puppet than a good executive.

I also think that Arnold will cost California money because it now stands to lose the Enron money it may be owed, and I think that will be bad for California.

So I still think the Republicans misused a system ripe for rigging, costing California millions of dollars better spent on erasing the California deficit, and that electing Arnold won't do anything to resolve the impasse in the legislature caused by the 2/3 condition for passing budgets, and I think Arnold will cave into Enron regarding any ongoing lawsuits geared toward getting California the money its owed.

And I blame Pete Wilson, George Bush, and the California Republican minority in the legislature for the budget mess, not Davis. And I don't think they would have tried so hard, or spent so much money trying to get this recall if they didn't think it would be worth their while. And if the Republicans think it would be so good for them, then I think it's safe to say that the people of California will suffer as a result.

[VOX]

54. Well said, Dan!

And as a Gopher, you've had your own past troubles with a steroid-inflated governor.

Appreciate your fine post, thanks --

:toast:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

58. fuck that! time to fight back on their level..get down in the gutter dems

[Must_B_Free]

76. And what level is that?

How are you going to fight back on their level?

In fact, by your argument, we just did fight back on their level and we lost.

[ibegurpard]

77. Hardly

Republicans have been setting up and trashing Davis for this moment for MONTHS if not YEARS. We only got a crack at Arnold for a few weeks. More time and people would've gotten a much better look at what they were considering.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ellie]

67. Yes, let's give him a chance

Let's give him a chance to hand California over to the repukes. Let's give him a chance to drill on the coast. Let's give him a chance to make that pesky little Enron thing go away. Let's give him a chance while we stand on the sidelines wringing our hands, wailing, "But he promised!" I am so disgusted I could throw up. I am almost hoping that the vote was rigged because I cannot believe Californians handed their state over to a Nazi sympathizer because Davis was a big meanie! And a jerk!

WTF?

Yes, I am angry. Playing by the rules is so 20th century. The repukes have passed us by while we debate politeness and rules. It's fucking ridiculous. My father used to say that the American people were their own worst enemy. I guess he was right.



Edited to fix rant-induced spelling.

[Spazito]

78. I see Arnold is off to a good, moderate start----NOT!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=499531

Arnold puts an anti-gay person in charge of his transition team. Do you think he is trying to send a message here???? Yep!

[Art_from_Ark]

79. This is just another statehouse coup-- like Arkansas, 1996

Remember Ken Starr's witchhunt against then-governor Jim Guy Tucker of Arkansas? Tucker was convicted of "fraud" based on the testimony of people who changed their stories more often than their underwear. It just so happened that a Republican was lieutenant governor at the time-- Mike Huckabee, another in a long line of intellectually challenged Republican frontman. Huckabee took over once Tucker was ousted. And guess what? Huckabee is still governor.

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. Give Arnold a chance?

MY ASS! The California legislature needs to just let Arnold figure out what the fuck he DOESN'T know with NO help whatsoever and then let the citizens recall his ass in a month.....unless the damn Repukes figure out how to ammend the Ca. constitution by then...what other "loophole" have they got up their sleeves? I'm sick of this crap. Arnold doesn't deserve a chance...he shouldn't be Governor in the first place! He's a MOLESTER! I hope he has to spend any time he has, involved in law suits and answering some questions...IN COURT!
I'm STILL shocked that ANY female voted for that slimeball! I'm pissed, can you tell? :grr:

AAAAAAAND, ask yourself this. Why, NOW, is Hatch trying to ammend our constitution so a foreign born citizen can run for President? GEE! Could it be because they want Arnold to run? No Fucking Way! We HAVE to start playing dirty. We HAVE to stop being so damned principled and we HAVE to stop letting them get away with THIS kind of bullshit power grab! No more "chances" for ANY Repuke and that includes Arnold.

[Capn Sunshine]

81. yeah. I'll give him a CHANCE. 180 days.

Day 181, we file with Shelly's office for a recall.
THAT is playing by THEIR rules.

* To repeal the car tax requires a constitutional ammendment.
It was designed by Pete Wilson this way. Arnold can't repeal it.

* one of his transition team members had already mentioned the "reality' of raising taxes.

* his chief financial advisor has stuck to his guns regarding altering/changing Prop 13 to raise more revenue.

basicaly, he flat out lied , or actually, did not offer anything of substance. Now comes the reality of governance.

We are raising money on the internet for this cause; details coming.
In the meantime:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RecallArnold/

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Keep us posted

would you please? I will GLADLY donate money to recall him!

[Snellius]

84. I'm not sure we know who he is

I'm not sure HE even knows who he is politically. Will he lean in his wife's Kennedy direction or will he be coopted by the David Dreiers into the Republican power machine? So far I'm not sure he and Bush are on the same page. Bush actually seems jealous. What's interesting is that, like California in general, the usual partisan distinctions of Republican or Democrat don't completely apply. But it would be a mistake to see him as just another Bushbot.

[confusionisnext]

86. WRONG on gay rights

Arnold said that he would have vetoed AB 205, the last bill that gives gays a ton of rights. Fuuuuuck him!

[Must_B_Free]

96. He's on the wrong coast for this view

nail #1... - said he was liberal, huh?

[snippy]

87. Must_B_Free is right. If democrats do not cooperate with Arnold

republicans will gain seats in the California legislature and both the US Senate and the US House and Whistle Ass will win in a landslide. Independent voters believe in compromise and are disgusted by partisan obstructionism. In order for an election to be close the independent vote must be fairly evenly split. If the democrats do not appear to be cooperating with Arnold, independents will reject the democratic party in droves and republicans will win big.

The reason democrats have struggled to win enough votes to win elections in the last 10 years or so is that they and the party have allowed the republicans to define the democratic party. Since Newt Gingrich took over GOPAC, the republican strategy has been to try to marginalize the democratic party by painting it as extremist in its liberalism. This is why a republican candidate for any office higher than dogcatcher is trained to use the famous GOPAC words when referring to a democratic opponent or the democratic party. If the democrats do not cooperate with Arnold, they will once again allow the republican party to define the democratic party.

The democrats will need to debate issues and values with Arnold, but they need to do it a manner that will appeal to independent voters if they want to win. The democrats also have an opportunity to use Arnold's election to define the republican party in a way that will hurt republicans and help democrats nationwide.

Democrats should use Arnold's win to redefine the new republican party as being socially moderate. Democrats always, always, always should identify Arnold's positions on social issues as "moderate" and refer to the new republican party as often as possible. Democrats should say "we are willing to work with Arnold and we hope that all republicans, everywhere, including president Bush, will adopt his moderate views on social issues."

This will drive the Reich wing fundamentalists ballistically apeshit, frothing at the mouth and bleeding from every other orifice with uncontrollable hatred and intolerance.

This will allow the democrats to define the republican party as being exremist in its right wing fundamentalism. This in turn will force Whistle Ass and the republican party to either approve or disapprove of Arnold's "moderate" views on social issues. If Whistle Ass and the party choose to side with Arnold, the Reich wing fundamentalists will become demoralized and many will stay home. If Whistle Ass and the party choose to side with the Reich wing fundamentalists, millions of decent Americans will be disgusted and reject the republican party. Maybe even Arnold will switch parties.

Of course Whistle Ass and the republican party would never lose 100% of the Reich wing fundamentalist vote. There has never been a politician or party that lost 100% of a portion of their base and there never will be. But the turnout of the base can vary significantly.

Close elections are won by turning out your base in a higher percentage than your opponent and by keeping the independent vote close. This is why so much time and money is spent trying to motivate your base and demoralize your opponent's base. If you carry the independent vote easily you win by a comfortable margin.

If the Reich wing fundamentalists are demoralized by the direction of the new republican party, some percentage will simply stay home. If that percentage is large enough, lots of republicans, including Whistle Ass, will lose.

[Must_B_Free]

94. I think Arnold is a wedge in their ass

right in between the neoconservatives and traditional republicans.

[snippy]

98. I agree. I think he creates problems for republicans.

But the democrats need to exploit those problems. Fighting Arnold now merely unifies republicans and alienates independents.

[Padraig18]

91. Why in God's name are you all...

... pushing the CA Democratic Party to the head of the line for the 'privilege' of stepping in front of a perfectly good train wreck? FFS, get out of the way and let him self-destruct! :eyes:

[maxanne]

93. because women matter

at least to some of us.

[Must_B_Free]

95. They had their chance

if they didn't file charges that's their problem. I encourage all who can still pursue charges to do so.

But this is a separate issue from a a valid execution of the rules, by which Davis was fairly recalled.

[Padraig18]

97. Huh?

How does letting Ahhhhhnold self-destruct translate into 'women don't matter'? :wtf:

[maxanne]

100. you seem indifferent

(at best) to how women feel about this - or the seriousness of the issue.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Padraig18]

101. Not at all

I simply fail to see how doing the same thing to him that he just did to Davis is more beneficial than letting him implode. If there are criminal acts involved, by all means prosecute or impeach him, but don't fall for the 'Freeper bait' and recall him.

[maxanne]

104. I never mentioned recall

the person who started this thread is essentially telling women to get over it. I believe that is wrong - for women - and for men who care about women's issues. I don't think recall is the answer.

[Padraig18]

105. I didn't read it that narrowly.

*shrug*

[foo_bar]

114. the lady doth protest too much

The post says nothing of women, just "crybabies" of the reactionary variety.

[VOX]

108. This presupposes that the GOP will allow one of their own to self-destruct

The right-wing money machine will roll out now in CA. The corporate media will report 24/7 that Arnold is doing all great, all the time. The spin will be that he's all for the people, but that the Democrats in Sacramento have tied his hands.

I will make you a bet -- I'm betting that if the amendment to the Constitution that's being introduced by Arnold's pal, Orrin Hatch, passes -- this surface-gloss, steroid king will be running for president in 2008.

Americans have had it with conventional politics to the degree that they're perfectly willing to foul their own nest if necesary. The Republicans have very craftily tapped into this rage, and channel it for their benefit.

Arnold will not only endure, I'm sorry to say that, if he behaves well, I fear that he will flourish.

[Must_B_Free]

111. No, they will cause his self destruction

The right wing money machine is who gave Bush his brilliant advice that has made him already a a lame duck.

If Arnold follows what they say, he will implode.

And how is that defense money going to come in? Is CA a manufacturing state?

[NaMeaHou]

112. I absolutely detest that this recall happened in the first place.

That being said, in order to keep from losing my mind completely, I have to agree with your post.

The people who voted have spoken (assuming it was a fair vote).

[brook]

113. Just perused the whole thread.

On the way home from work tonight I heard Arnold on the radio. He was talking about * - and how he expects * to come for a visit soon and to do such wonderful things for California.

Yeah. Right. Give Arnold a chance. My ass. Anybody hanging around here who hasn't figured out what a tool this guy is, hasn't been paying attention.

Our staff meeting today was dismal. We're a non-profit charged with the responsibility of feeding seniors throughout a county that voted something like 54% for this Predator. Cutting back hours. In the red.Future questionable. We raised the price of our meal from 2 bucks to 2.25 this month - and we're getting chewed out about it. But only from the diehard Rethugs. I was so mad today, I reminded a bunch of them that they come eat at a program that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Democratic politicians - and yet they vote Republican year after year after year.

Okay - that's my rant for the evening. But I'm never gonna cut Arnie & his merry band of PuppetMasters a break. Bank on it.