Why do liberals swoon for a guy in uniform?

[VermontDem2004]

The notion that liberals disdain people in uniform was always a bit of a myth. Even during Vietnam, concern for the loss of young American lives was probably the anti-war movement's most powerful motivation. Since then, sneery right-wingers have had it both ways about liberals and the military: When liberals oppose military action, conservative voices accuse them of betraying our fighting men and women. When liberals support military action, they are accused of callous indifference to the lives of American soldiers.

But the current liberal swooning over (retired) generals is truly something new. A widespread fantasy among liberals who loathe the Bush administration, for example, is that Colin Powell will resign as secretary of state and "say what he really thinks." This will bring down the whole house of cards, these liberals believe. What he really thinks, they think, is more or less what they really think.

There is not much basis for this belief. Powell is skilled at distancing himself from certain policies without seeming disloyal. But if he really were as opposed to the administration he serves as these liberal fantasists imagine, a resignation at this point would come much too late to have any moral force.

Then there is Gen. Wesley Clark. Much of his support comes from people who think they haven't swooned themselves but believe that others will do so. But most of these people are in a swoon whether they realize it or not. They think that Clark has the best chance of defeating George Bush, and that nothing else matters. Their assessment is based on what seems to me a simple-minded view that you can place all the candidates on a political spectrum, then pick the one who's as far toward the other side as your side can bear, and call it pragmatism.

How pragmatic is it, though, to snub the one candidate who seems to be able to get people's juices flowing—that would be Howard Dean—in favor of one with nothing interesting to say, on the theory that this, plus the uniform stashed in the back of his closet, will make him appealing to people you disagree with? When the odds are against you, as they are for the Democrats in 2004, caution and calculation can be the opposite of pragmatism.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089569/

[Frederic Bastiat]

1. I back Clark...

..because of his stand on the issues period. Will people vote for a candidate based on the swoon factor? Why just look at California LOL

[JohnKleeb]

2. of course its a myth that leftists hate the military

This actually isnt nothing new, reading that Harry Truman and he was a liberal to run with him, and the Roosevelt brothers(FDRs boys) wanted Ike to run as a democrat. They were most definely progressive liberals. That said I am still in the Kucinich camp all the way.

[Kamika]

3. oohhh i know

because guys in uniform are SO HANDSOME !! :loveya:

[AP]

4. Liberals don't line up, fall in line.

It's not in their constitution.

[Mari333]

5. Think of it like this

My son might be deployed overseas to some godforsaken illegal invasion and die in a ditch with his bowels ripped out by a bomb because of GW Bush regime...
THEREFORE I will vote for anyone but the Chimp, including a General named Wesley Clark who was against this insane murder of our young troops.
That enough for ya?

[wyldwolf]

6. All this is well and good if you back a candidate who defers...

...to the states on a number of issues.

I'll vote for the guy who clearly makes his positions know, not one who ducks and leaves them to the states.

[bobbieinok]

7. What's the support for Dean in places like OK?

I'm not trying to start a big fight over Dean. I like what I've heard about him.

But growing up in OK and now living back here again, I think he might lose more voters than he might win.

I suspect Clark is the only candidate who MIGHT have a chance in states like OK.

BTW, the only candidate I've given money to is Kucinich.

[Kahuna]

24. Clark leads in OK. Dean could hope to win in some yuppie states

PERIOD. He's a disaster waiting to happen.

[BigBigBigBear]

8. I'll swoon

for anyone I think can beat Bush, at this point.

(Go Broncos!)

[VermontDem2004]

11. YES!

Go Broncos!

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You know

there are three things to be noted here (And I am not a Clark
Suporter),

1.- When Ike got out of the Army, he looked at the landscape and
decided to go to the Republicans... by the way the Democrats
tried to recruit him as well... first criticims that is crazy.

From the POV of history, this is not that unique or different.

2.- Generals have to run mid sized cities (we call them bases)
which have social services, medicals services et al. I have heard
the man in speeches and when he talks of these things he does such
from the background he knows best: The military... and it
would shock most Repukes how "socialist" health care is in the
armed forces, for instance.

3.- Yes the general is putting together his policies, as in
books...(Waging modern War) I sugest all responsible voters read
his book, as well as Dr. Dean's and any other candidate since the
platform, or at least major issues, will be in there.

[enki23]

10. same reason conservative republicans swooned for arnie

they feel it's pragmatic. it removes many of the usual arguments against the other side. it's hard to call a gangbanging hollywood actor a "rightwing fundy freak" and it's hard to call a retired general a "socialist pansy-assed pacifist ultra-liberal freak".

etc.

[JHB]

12. We're distracted by the shiny medals...

... :silly:

Well, I'm sure it's true in some cases.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Kinsley's A Bright Guy

but I doubt he has his finger on the pulse of America....

[bearfartinthewoods]

14. the first tine i heard reference to us needing the general to win

was from the media. now, we are choosing a president because the media told us what we need to do.

doesn't that scare anyone?

[ignatius]

18. That is a demeaning thing to say to Clark supporters.

I personally like the fact that he is intelligent, has an economic degree, is well spoken and that he was a general. The repugs use scare tactics and wars very effectively. If we want to win an election, we need a candidate who can calm those fears, period.

The fact that he actually understands economics is icing on the cake.

I didn't need the media to tell me that he is electable, I figgered it out all by myself.

[bearfartinthewoods]

31. i didn't mean to be demeaning

and i'm not talking about people supporting him now. i'm talking about the begining of this thing. who really started the idea of Clark for president? i doubt you decided he was 'electable' when he was a talking head on cnn.

hey...i'm not pretending i like him but i have the right to my own opinions just as you do.

i didn't want you or any of the other Clark supports think i was trying to insult you. you are not the issue. it's the POBs....it's always about the POBs.

[OKNancy]

20. Sez You

I don't know how other people chose their candidate, but I chose Clark after hearing him talk. At first it was on Bill Mahar's show when he talked of reason and the Enlightenment being the foundation of this country, then I stated trying to catch him on other news shows and did some reading.

The fact that I DO think he can win is an added bonus.

[bicentennial_baby]

25. I chose Clark all by myself

I'm all growed up, and I'm actually smart enough to choose which candidate I support....Shocking! :eyes:

[chiburb]

15. Because it means my package arrived!!!!

.

[maha]

16. Historical Revisionism at Work

"But the current liberal swooning over (retired) generals is truly something new."

Not in all of American history; Gen. George Marshall was a great hero to liberals in his day, for example. Believe it or not, U.S. Grant was a flaming liberal for his time.

This idea that liberals are supposed to hate all things military grew out of the Vietnam War era (I am old enough to remember the world before the Vietnam War, so I have some perspective on this), and, to some extent, even earlier, from the post-Atomic Bomb era.

The notion that there is something inherently evil and brainless and soulless about all things military was nurtured by popular culture during and after Vietnam -- St. Strangelove, MASH, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Hair, etc. Although there were a few anti-military books and films before Vietnam (All Quiet on the Western Front comes to mind), they were few and far between. Vietnam opened a floodgate. After Vietnam, films that glorified war and soldiering got laughed out of the theater -- John Wayne's "Green Beret," for example.

So now we're dealing with a kind of reverse prejudice. People who grew up in the post-Vietnam era tend to have a knee-jerk anti-military attitude and cannot see that, sometimes, people with a military background CAN be honorable and intelligent and even liberal. And the U.S. military does have traditions and values that are positive, although sometimes they get forgotten.

[Kolesar]

22. Hollywood would not release anti-military films until the late 1960s

There was a "code" during the cold war (with the Soviet Union) that prevented movies with an "anti-American message" from being released.

By the 1970s, filmmakers were released from that code and released huge numbers of movies that had an anti-American message in them.

Per your last paragraph, I do not agree that Americans who grew up in the post-Vietnam era have a knee-jerk anti-military attitude. Look at how popular movies like Top Gun have been.

[lumpy]

17. I swooned for the uniform during WW2

but I was a teenager. Then I grew up.

[leetrisck]

19. I like Dean and I like Clark but don't use smart

ass remarks like "the military uniform stashed in the back of the closet" Better than cocaine stashed in the back of the closet and that's what you have now. One can praise their own candidate without the disparaging remarks about uniforms - at least it was a real one and one Clark can be damned proud of.

[blm]

21. I don't see why liberals would fall for a lifelong centrist.

It makes NO sense to me when there are several great liberal candidates.

[MODemocrat]

29. Liberals are not the only ones that admire a man in uniform

As old as I am (I'm a Liberal), there is something so dashing about a man in a uniform. Being in the military requires strict discipline, and it shows. Many types of people, especially women, are simply smitten by a uniform of any sort. Besides, Clark is an extremely handsome gentleman. It's a toss-up for me, between Dean and Clark, and both for different reasons. :)

[LoneStarLiberal]

23. Primary Time Versus GE Time

How pragmatic is it, though, to snub the one candidate who seems to be able to get people's juices flowing—that would be Howard Dean—in favor of one with nothing interesting to say, on the theory that this, plus the uniform stashed in the back of his closet, will make him appealing to people you disagree with? When the odds are against you, as they are for the Democrats in 2004, caution and calculation can be the opposite of pragmatism.

He is getting peoples' juices flowing...Democratic voters' juices. And that's what you have to do come primary time is get your party base's juices flowing. Dean is doing that.

But what works in the primaries isn't going to win the White House in 2004. Not everyone outside the Democratic Party is as angry with George Bush as we are within the party. Taking that same message into the General Elections is going to be a great way to another four years of Bush/Cheney and all that entails.

Of course the corollary to this argument is that you have to win in the Primaries to get to the general election!

All this inane shotgunning at Clark and the attendant sniping in retribution at Dean is just stupid. There's a very good chance that these two will run on the same ticket later on down the line, and if that is so what sense is there in the respective camps' snarling and yipping at one another right now?

[XNASA]

26. Time with my girl I spent it well

I had to be strong for my woman
(You must be joking, O man you must be joking)
She needed to be protected

The good life was so elusive
Handouts, they got me down
I had to regain my self-respect
So I got into camouflage

The girls they love to see you shoot

I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform

To have ambitions was my ambition
But I had nothing to show for my dreams
Time with my girl I spent it well
(You must be joking, O man you must be joking)

The good life was so elusive
Handouts, they got me down
I had to regain my confidence
So I got into camouflage

The girls they love to see you shoot

I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform

I need an order
(Shoot, shoot)
I need an order
(Shoot, shoot)
I need an order
(Shoot, shoot)
I need an order
(Shoot, shoot)

To have ambition
Was my ambition
Time with my girl I spent it well
(You must be joking, O man you must be joking)

The girls they love to see you shoot
The girls they love to see you shoot

I love a man in a uniform
I love a man in a uniform
(They love to see you shoot)
I love a man in a uniform

The girls they love to see you shoot
I love a man in a uniform
(They love to see you shoot)

[msmcghee]

27. I disagree with Kinsley on this one.

He is guessing that some liberals like Clark as a candidate - because he's as far to the right as you can get and still be a dem - and of course that uniform thing.

I think what is really happening is that many progressives who desparately want to get Bush* out of the WH next year - intuitively understand that Clark takes the toxic memes that the Republicans have been beating us over the head with since 9/11, and potentially turning them to our advantage - at the least he goes a long way toward removing that weapon from their arsenal.

Here are the memes that the pukes (aka Carl Rove) have successfully planted in the majority of American minds. These are the memes that cause 70% of Americans to believe that Saddam was behind 9/11 and that Bush* is doing a good job fighting terrorism - despite tons of evidence to the contrary:

1) Dems are wusses that would rather worry about whether the world loves us - than killing terrorists.

Clark has shown in Kosovo he's willing to use military force and that he knows a great deal about how that should be done.

2) The pukes are kick-ass, macho dudes, ready to kick Arab butt anytime and anyplace - even if they have to trample over a few million dems and the UN to get to them.

Clark has the credibility to be cautious about where and how we extend our military power - enough so to make the pukes look like kids playing a grownup's game.

With the right strategy he could potentially replace those memes with:

1) Dems are smart enough to know how to get the world to help us and support us when we do need to use our military.

2) Pukes are blowhards and bullies who don't understand the first thing about global defense issues - look at the mess they got us into in Iraq.

I believe just the fact that Clark is running and has jumped to the A-list has Rove spending sleepless nights. Listen carefully to every speech Bush* gives these days. Carl has him reinforcing these memes every chance he gets using "oh so macho" sound bytes and body language.

[FDRLincoln]

28. bull

I usually agree with Kinsley, but this article is bullshit.

I like Clark because I like his vision....how many politicians even TRY to think in 100-year time frames? I like him because he understands what is truly at stake right now, and can articulate it better than the other guys.

[KG]

30. ahem. not all liberals are in a swoon over the gen.