Im thinking of buying a 9 millimeter for safety

[Mari333]

as a Dem, as a liberal, and my concern for my own safety as a liberal in the USA...think Im crazy? I dont..I also want to get a permit to conceal and carry. I have a perfect record and a perfect background history..
as a woman, as a mother, as a liberal who is considered radically left in a mostly republican area, where the men here are dangerous bastards, and have tailgated my car, yelled at my husband and I, and who knows what else could happen as the election year approaches, I am concerned for my safety as well as my family.
anyone feel this way? lone liberal in a pocket of Repugs?
I also already know how to shoot, I grew up with guns.

[JanMichael]

1. It's sad that it's come to this.

My answer? Yes. Two years ago I would have argued for hours NO!

Sad indeed.

[lumpy]

7. Me too

Changed my mind, thanks to Bushco. Maybe the framers of the Constitution knew what they were talking about.

[7th_Sephiroth]

175. An interesting fact

i am a florida resident and jeb bust instituted 10-20-life if your near a crime scene with a gun its an automatic 10 years, if you fire one *and hit them* its automatic 20 years if you kill someone its automatic life

[bearfartinthewoods]

190. you are much more likely to be attacked for 'everyday' reasons than

because you are a liberal imho. i can't remember ever hearing of a case where someone was killed for being a liberal? harrased maybe. scared or threatened maybe but you better think hard about using a gun in response to being harrased or you could end up in jail.

[MrBenchley]

197. Can't You See The Headlines

"Liberal Firebrand Kills Political Opponents"

[bearfartinthewoods]

224. remember when the dem congressman shot that kid?

he was very vocally anti gun but shot some kid in his back yard...for breaking into his pool?? i forget the details but what a field day the right had with the story.

[MrBenchley]

229. Rings a very very faint belll

but I'm damned if I can remember any details...

[Withergyld]

231. Wasn't that in D.C.?

I lived in Montgomery County MD for many years and remember something similar to this story occuring there.

[realFedUp]

2. I've thought about it also.

.

[Mari333]

13. My husband was a sheriff for 13 years

he also knows 9 millimeter guns very well...he agrees...we already have cameras set up on our garage. I know, I know I saw Bowling for Colombine. Im well aware of the fact that people are afraid. What I am afraid of is the insane freeper types who, when they dont like my car's bumper stickers, when they dont like my letters to the paper, when they dont like me , in a small town, railing against the Bush regime, and IF Bush keeps going down in the polls, will take it out on me.
Im in a rural area, its getting more dangerous here, and it could get a whole lot worse as Bushbots lose their ground.
I dont want to worry about not being able to protect myself from these people. Ive seen them on the Freeper boards..they would not hesitate to kill me if they could, as Bush is not hesitating to deploy my son and murder him if he can ..
By the way..I called Sen Levins office this morning about my son..they are very good people...took my phone number and name and are going to call my son...
So, I am going to buy a gun, I know how to use it, flame away, I would have never done this before but now I do believe we are in a civil war and things actually will get worse.

[7th_Sephiroth]

174. DE.50AE7

i have a pair for self defence and tournament shooting, they are large and not for those of small of hand, but they do more than the job

[ReadTomPaine]

177. LOL, nice guns! But a bit over kill for her concealed carry needs!

I reference my "feel like she's shoplifting a zucchini" comment downthread.

[7th_Sephiroth]

180. to each his own

i can easliy carry mine around draw and fire but i am verry large and verry fast

[ReadTomPaine]

181. Well there ya go...

One of the most important things about getting a gun is making sure it's right for you, otherwise it just sits in the safe.. size, strength and esp hand size are really key factors. Ergonomics are super critical. You must be like 6'7" btw, those DE's are gigantic! I can't imagine trying to use those for concealed carry permit purposes.

[7th_Sephiroth]

182. i'm 6'0

and they were heavy at first, but i got used to them, now i can draw and fire with 90% accuracy

[ReadTomPaine]

183. But carrying them in an underarm rig must be a real drag.

Always aware that they are there... always poking in the ribs and arm. Chafing. Though with training, as you say, you can get used to anything.

[7th_Sephiroth]

185. it never really bothered me

i was more worried about the recoil of them in the beginning

[ReadTomPaine]

187. re: recoil - not suprised that concerned ya...

Nice pistols though... I've heard they are very accurate and I see them all the time in tournaments.

[7th_Sephiroth]

188. thhey are verry accurate

almost 100% interchangeable, you should see the shots i can pull off with the 12 inch barrel

[XNASA]

3. Better get a 10mm..............

Just to be sure.

[DarkPhenyx]

19. Naaa...

For most things a 9mm is more than enough, and it is a hell of a lot easier to control than a 10mm. there is also the issue of grip size. Not trying to be sexist, but women have smaller hands and I know a lot of tehm who simply cannot get a good shooting grip on a 10mm. Hell, I have trouble with a 10mm.

Best advice I can give is shop around. Don't buy the first one you find. Get training. Police Depts are the best palce to go. NRA training after that.

If you are looking to do a lot of concealed carry get a smaller gun. There are some 9mm that conceal well at a loss of magazine capacity. If you are going for an honest conceal carry the loss of cap is acceptable.

[oxycontinrush]

56. Indirect fire weapons are best

When you say you are have the heavy artillery, mean it.

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mortar.html

[ReadTomPaine]

147. DP is right on the mark regarding capacity vs. weapon size...

A weapon is useless for defense if it’s cumbersome to carry around with you. You’ll always be finding reasons to leave it behind if taking it along with you makes you feel like you're shoplifting a zucchini. It’s got to be small, light and comfortable to wear if you are going to carrying permit route.

I can’t stress this enough. Amusingly, this is also very true for digital cameras! Along these lines, make sure you get the best holster you can afford, something that's comfortable & allows a smooth, fast draw. If someone gets the drop on you, that gun is suddenly a liability rather than an asset.

[Freddie Stubbs]

4. Howard Dean is the candidate for you

He has the best record according to the NRA.

[qb]

5. I also hope you know how to be 100% sure

the gun NEVER EVER gets into the hands of a child (or a criminal, for that matter).

[roughsatori]

6. Yes, but take lessons

You say you are a mother, if the children are still young make sure you have it in a proper gun safe, etc.

I was raised around guns and was given a gun at an early age. No one in my family has ever been injured or committed a crime with one.

[Mari333]

16. No my sons are grown and on their own

One has his own guns..National Guardsman. and my husband is an ex sheriff. So, no guns around kids.

[JHB]

20. Learn how to maintain it, find out where you can practice...

Both the gun and your proficiency with it are things that need to be maintained.

One possible positive side effect: few things make your kids less curious about a gun than finding out that it's a chore. They don't see that part on TV :evilgrin:

[gratuitous]

8. Be sure you buy from a reputable dealer

Read the instructions (if such a thing exists) cover-to-cover. Take it to the shooting range often and make sure it's in good working order and repair. Keep up a regular maintenance schedule. Never leave it loaded. Separate the gun from its ammunition, and keep both under lock and key. And all that sort of stuff.

Are you crazy? I don't know. But if you're determined to have a gun, make sure you treat it with the utmost care.

[bearfartinthewoods]

225. if it's always unloaded and locked seperatly from the locked ammo

you are better off with a baseball bat.

excuse me mr. murderer...give me a second...where did i put that key...just a minute....be right with you....

[atreides1]

9. I Say Go For It

I'm of mixed ancestry, but have thought to be middle eastern some times. After 9/11/01, I bought myself a 9mm Ruger, not because of some
foreign terrorists, but because of the locally grown ones.

I plan to get a CCW license after taking a class next month. Besides,
here in Arizona you can carry a gun just about anywhere, except into government buildings, and businesses that have signs posted, that do not allow firearms on the premises.

I also know how to shoot, the US Army taught me well.

[Kamika]

10. get one if you feel safer

no need to feel that you shouldnt have a gun just because youre a liberal.

Its your right to have one. And by the sounds of it you need one

[papau]

21. Keeping it away from kids is the only problem

Long ago I had a poorly working 9mm, unloaded it, and through it away into a garbage drawer, and through the old ammo into a sack and into a different garbage drawer in my garage workspace. My kids went looking for things to sell at a street fair - and I got a call from the police telling me my kids were selling a 9 mm with ammo at the fair!

This was long ago - when I was perhaps more stupid that I am currently. It did not occur to me that junk 30 feet apart and bagged and "hidden" would get combined. I thank the lord nothing evil happened, and of course now all is under lock and key (yes - the evil person that breaks into my house will have to wait for me to find the key - which is also locked away - before I will be able to shoot them!).

I rarely carry the weapon - and it is sad that you feel threaten to the point that you feel you need to do so. I might consider moving to a different area if there was that much fear where I hung out.

But I hunt - and the protection thing has never really been a reason that I buy guns.

Good luck.

[slackmaster]

11. Do you live in a "shall-issue" state for concealed-carry permits?

I live in California, which still has a barbaric discretionary-issue system.

[j_klondowski]

114. Do you have to kiss up the the police chief to get a permit?

I live in maine, so I'm not familiar with california laws. And lately I'm quite happy that I'm not in CA (no offense)

[leanings]

12. Please, if you do

make sure you learn up on the laws, practice regularly, and think about the mental, emotion and legal possibilities that come with making the decision to carry a firearm.

Also, unless you're going to practice quite a bit and get really good, get a revolver. A small frame .357 can also shoot .38 Specials so that recoil isn't a factor, has far fewer controls than an automatic and will never malfunction when you need it.

[Uzybone]

14. Good for you

sounds like you do have reason to be concerned for you and your familys' well being.

[Junkdrawer]

15. Mari, you're under incredible stress...

I read and posted to your thread yesterday...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=498348&mesg_id=498348

Find people in your area that help with problems like this. Please.

[Mari333]

18. Im under incredible stress sure

But I have a logical mind...I have had plenty of brushes with insane right wingers who tried to run me off the road because of my bumper stickers against the war.
so has my husband. I think I would feel safer with a gun.
PS I see a counselor on Mondays for my concerns. No I dont go to church, around here its all republicans.
I own a nature preserve, thats my church. At least I can trust non human animals.

[Junkdrawer]

23. I'm concerned that when I see a good person post this...

Heres the deal

If I lose my son, if he is lied to, sent over to a place that kills him, I will kill myself.
Thats the truth. I wont go thru that again. Been there already. Wont lose a son and survive. I wont.

And then I hear they want to buy a gun...

Stress will lie to you, Mari. And all the while it will tell you that you're "fine".

[Mari333]

138. Dont worry...if Bush kills my son overseas

I will kill myself far more dramatically
remember the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in Saigon?
Now picture me in front of the White House setting myself on fire in protest.
Makes for better press against the Whistleass regime.

[slaveplanet]

161. I heard a lady

on the radio today, she just lost her son over there two days ago.She was crying so hard , describing how he was blown up and didn't die right away. She was saying why couldn't Bush daughters be over there too. I was in tears listening to her and If every one else that listened to that didn't tear up ....they're inhuman.

[TrogL]

46. They have guns too

and are more willing to use them. They'll likely beat you to the draw, then scream "i was protecting myself".

Maybe it's time to back away from activism for awhile.

[MojoKrunch]

49. Ahh... is it legal to shoot at someone who is trying to run you

off the road?
Ok... let me rephrase that... is it legal to engage in a running gun battle?
(For you gun owners out there, how hard *is* it to shoot at someone when you are trying to steer?)

//I think I would feel safer with a gun.//
Buy the gun... leave the bullets for later.
See if the gun makes you feel any safer.
Then try it with bullets *in* the gun.

Because, no offense intended, someone in counseling about stress who feels "surrounded" by Republicans and only feels they can trust non human animals kinda makes me think there shouldn't be bullets in the gun.

//I have had plenty of brushes with insane right wingers who tried to run me off the road because of my bumper stickers against the war.
so has my husband.//
I'm thinking maybe a video camera in the car might be a better investment.

But that's just me.

Mojo

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. I almost got run off the road by a semi two days ago

he actually 'bumped me' and ripped the passenger side mirror off my pickup. Apparently I was in his way and since I was only going 5 mph over the speed limit and 15 mph over the 'truck' speed limit, he felt he was within his rights to push me along. Well I remember thinking it was a good thing I didn't have my gun with me cuz I woulda been tempted to use it on one of his rear tires.

Guns + Anger = bad combo

[tom_paine]

17. Buy guns, stock up on ammo

Remember, many of the Busheviks are not shy about wishing us dead, nor about lovingly fantasizing about murdering us themselves.

Just how much further does Imperial "Law" Enforcement have to fall before they feel bold enough to bring those fantasies into reality?

I don't know, but you better get some insurance.

Even if it doesn't happen you will want to pass them down to yoru children and their children, because either Civil War or Utter Bushevik Iron Boot Totalitarianism is coming by 2100.

In either case, those weapons will be needed by somebody sometime.

[metisnation]

26. gun control in Iraq

Get them now before the Busheviks decide that we need gun control in the US like they need it in Iraq. I don't have any kids so subsequently I am armed to the teeth. My favorite is my semi-automatic shotgun. Give me liberty or give me death!

[slaveplanet]

32. Does anyone else find it funny

How the news Media was reporting on how all the Iraqi citizens , were arming themselves before the war, Iraq had the most lenient laws(basicallly none) regarding gun control in the Arab world. The alaphabet soup networks all ran hitpeices on how anyone could go to the open air market and arm themselves to the hilt(no such thing as background checks).

Yet Saddam Hussein openly preached in the middle of large armed crowds, and not one attempt was made on him?

Just Imagine if GW had the cojones to do this here.

freedom is relative
the 2nd amendment is there for a reason

this is one issue In which I agree with PaleoConservatives

FYI-check the OUR LADY OF Peace Act-heavily supported by Neo-CONs/DeMS- very dangerous legislation that outlaws many types of effective weapons(including some shotguns) for repelling Coup attempts, and broad definitions that could be used to disqualify up to 80% of the US population from their 2nd amendment right- BUSH SAID
HE WILL SIGN THIS


for further reading

1911 Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1929 The Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 MILLION dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1935 China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 MILLION political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1938 Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 6 to 7 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and 12 million Christians who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1956 Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1964 Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1970 Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1994 One has only to learn what really happened to the Christians in Rwanda between April and July of 1994 to imagine what may lie in store for Christians here in America at some time in the not-too-distant future. After the Christian Tutsis had been disarmed by governmental decree in the early 1990s, Hutu-led military forces began to systematically massacre the defenseless Christians. The massacre began in April 1994 and continued until July 1994. Using machetes rather than bullets, the Hutu forces were able to create a state of abject fear and terror within the helpless Christian population as they systematically butchered hundreds of thousands of them.

[tom_paine]

36. Complete agreement. Where do you think we'd be if Amerika was disarmed

Just how far along would the Bushevik Plan be?

They only have to go slow because of the armed populace. Otherwise, they could capture the prize (the Old American Republic and the Imperial Serfs of Amerika at their unchalleneged command) with no fear that it would dissolve into madness.

But an armed populace...that means the Busheviks can't go as fast as Grandpa Prescott Bush's Business Partners, the Nazi because the whole thing would erupt in a powder keg and they would not get the Prize, not without major damage (I'd say major death but I don't think the Busheviks value us "Fodder Units" any more than Gutaemalan, Nicaraguan, Chilean, Iranian or Iraqi "Fodder Units" at this point).

That, combined with the other aspects of the Constitution and Bill of Rights that slow them down, are what still keeps us even with the semblence of an illusion that we are "free".

I'm right with you, there.

[MojoKrunch]

51. As opposed to what?

//Just how far along would the Bushevik Plan be?//
You mean there is *MORE* we haven't heard about?
Holy shit.

//They only have to go slow because of the armed populace. Otherwise, they could capture the prize (the Old American Republic and the Imperial Serfs of Amerika at their unchalleneged command) with no fear that it would dissolve into madness.//
Ummm, how many of you armed Liberals have stormed the White House to take back what was stolen?
Did I miss it?

//But an armed populace...that means the Busheviks can't go as fast as Grandpa Prescott Bush's Business Partners, the Nazi because the whole thing would erupt in a powder keg and they would not get the Prize, not without major damage (I'd say major death but I don't think the Busheviks value us "Fodder Units" any more than Gutaemalan, Nicaraguan, Chilean, Iranian or Iraqi "Fodder Units" at this point).//
Hmmm... still trying to wrap my head around the concept of the armed Liberal "erupting in a powder keg".
Now my Anarchist buddies, yea, I can see that.
But hell, they're willing to blow up damn near anything with "government" on it.

//That, combined with the other aspects of the Constitution and Bill of Rights that slow them down, are what still keeps us even with the semblence of an illusion that we are "free".//
Right... that "due process" and Bill of Rights thing sure helped back in Florida, didn't it?
Obviously not.
It was the 2nd amendment that keeps them in check, by golly.
Especially since I'd hesitate to guess that armed Republicans outnumber armed Democrats 4 to 1.

//I'm right with you, there.//
I'm gonna go stand over here, behind the thick brick wall until the "revolution" is over.
Thanks.

Mojo

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[j_klondowski]

72. YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, the truth.

[BiggJawn]

106. Why do you suppose the christians will "get it" here?

I thought the Bushies were on THEIR side?

frankly, I see non-"people of The BOOK" getting it, along with Muslims (their book "smells like rats", remember?)

The Framers put the Second in, not so we could protect ourselves from a foreign power, but to keep our OWN government at bay. Yes, they have tanks and A-10's, but we are seeing every day what can be accomplished witha crude RPG, aren't we?

[slaveplanet]

145. To Be fully

Honest ,a friend of mine passed that list on via e-mail , and I don't know the author.....i was debating about editing that american Christian part out....for the reason I'm generally in agreement with your post. But I do feel that when faced with real tyranny, the true American christians won't go quietly

[blindpig]

205. while I support the right to arm bears.........

ooops, I meant bear arms & believe that a randomly armed populace has a deterrant effect on crime, to think that personal firearms would be effective against State Power is absurd. The fall of the Soviet Union and dependant states was acheived virtually bloodlessly. All that is required is that the majority demand change. Red Army commanders couldn't trust their troops to fire on the populace. The problem here is that the majority is besotted with tv & hubris. That, and the fact that our military has been known to shoot their employers(Kent St).It's all attitude, hardware is secondary.

[fujiyama]

84. Even Worse...

Selective gun control. The way things are going, certain groups will be eventually restricted from owning them, while those favorable to the government will be allowed to arm themselves to the teeth...For example those against this government's actions, or those who "speak of phantoms of lost liberty and aid and embed terrorists", will obviously be excluded from buying them.

As for the original poster, I would definetely recommend getting one. It's ironic that she should be forced feel such fear, being that her husband is a sheriff. Talk about gratitude for public service! Then again this is to be expected from the same fanatics that juxtaposed the triple amputee Vietnam veteran senator from Ga (I forgot his name) with bin Laden.

These people will do anything to win, and their band of fox news swallowing, flag waving racists will do anything to win.

[slaveplanet]

146. You forgot

to mention.....the majority of the people that propose and pass some of the limiting legislation, either hold or could obtain a CCW in short order.

[j_klondowski]

149. People don't mind taking away YOUR rights.

When they feel secure in their situation, they have no problem taking away the rights of the common man.

England is a PRIME example of that. The government has taught it's people to hate firearms, and they have ACTIVELY discouraged any sort of self defense. However, their "upper classes" are armed they can have weapons, with few restrictions.

The idea was to disarm the "criminal classes" and allow the rich to remain armed. Basicly they are saying that the poor need to fend for themelves and the rich are the only ones that have a valuable life.

The really insidious part is when they have actively taught their underclasses (read as "normal folk") that they should not defend themselves, and that firearms are evil. We need to take a long look at those we model.

[bearfan454]

198. The best thing to do is buy a gun from an individual

Here in Tx it doesn't need to be registered. If you have a hunting liscense or buy a gun from the pawn shop or Walmart they run the security check. That way they know your address and that you have a gun. If it ever comes to taking guns away from citizens it is better to have one they don't know about.

[hang a left]

22. I know there are alot of liberals who are for gun control

I am sorry, I am not one of them. Not in these times. When they come for the guns, we have trouble.

[gmaki]

29. As a gun owner

my first reaction is to say don't do it. I fully support your right to own and carry a gun but...

Before buying one, think about it and think hard. Think about how you would actually use it and in exactly what set of circumstances. Then think again the likelyhood, the REAL likelyhood of that set of circumstances coming about.

You mention freepers yelling at you or trying to run you off the road. Do you envision any of those events escalating to the point where you would actually shoot another human being? Even if you were to actually be run off the road, would a gun in any way help the situation?

If after all that, and still you conclude that it is necessary to own and carry a gun then go for it, but as others have suggested, learn how to use it properly, and most importantly, safely.

[j_klondowski]

58. Training is the IMPORTANT thing.

there are classes and there are classes. Being able to hit a target has nothing to do with being able to use a gun in defense of your life.

as the group that is constantly targeted by a more agressive and violent group we should start looking at our stance on gun control. I personally know at least 15 republicans that have said point blank that they agree with every one of our platform issues except gun control, and if we dropped that, they would switch in a heart beat.

If that was dropped from our platform, we would be able to forward EVERY other issue we hold dear.

The very fact that so many of us support gmaki's decision to defend herself (and exercise a constitutional right) shows that this is not that important to us, and we would be able to win everything else if we let this one go.

[Brian Sweat]

37. Well, I think you should be a little more specific.

What do you mean by gun control? I think you will find that liberal have a broad spectrum of views on gun control and you will often be surprised to find out that many "conservatives" are in favor of much more stringent gun control laws than many liberals.

If anyone ever bans guns altogether, it will not be liberals.

[Romulus]

24. please take a breath

I rushed out after Sept. 11 and bought a handgun due to concerns over anti-muslim-looking violence. As a USMC veteran and Virginia CCW permit holder, I thought I knew all I needed to know about owning a firearm, but I was wrong. Here are things I learned:

Things are looking bad politically, but this is one decision you do not want to rush.

I don't know where you live, but a CCW (carry concealed weapon/firearm) permit may take weeks to obtain, and require substantial application and training expenses. That is, if your state will even allow you to obtain one, even for your expressed reasons.

You're a mom? How will you ensure your kids won't get to a firearm? That may mean more money spent for a gun safe. How well do you trust your kids not to let their curiosity get the best of them? A NJ school shooting almost happened after a teenager figured out how to get into his dad's gun safe.

If you do get a firearm, you can't pull it out because some jerk tailgates you or yells at you. There are a whole host of laws you will need to bone up on concerning self-defense. That training or lawyer consultation will cost more money (see a pattern here?)

If you do get a firearm, you will have to alter your entire lifestyle to be focused on where that firearm is at all times. Trips to the store will become more tedious as you worry about how/where to conceal it safely in the car or on your person. An evening at home may mean double checking that it is in the safe. Going out of town may mean anxiety about a burglary of your house resulting in the arming of some gang member. Couple all that with trying to herd a kid or two.

If you get a CCW firearm, you will need to practice with it at least once every two weeks to be sure you can hit what you're shooting at and not endangering bystanders, should you need to actually shoot. That means time and money spent joining a range (~$150+/year), traveling to and from the range, and buying ammo (~$10/box of 50 9mm rounds). Plus a decent CCW firearm (Sig-Sauer, Glock, etc = ~$450-600) costs money.

Your homeowers' insurance may have a no-firearms provision, which could void your policy. That is important because that means, without personal liability coverage anymore, you will be stuck if you get sued for "wrongful death" or "personal injury" after shooting someone (even if they "deserved" it). Not to mention the implications of what no-insurance means if your house gets damaged for other reasons.

While you dwell on all that, I suggest looking into Fox Labs pepper spray (http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper.htm) as a better immediate self-defense alternative for your situation. (That's what I have, and where I bought it.) Fox Labs has near-universal endorsement among the "gun crowd" for being the next best thing to a gun. You can deploy it without fear of killing (most) people. You can deploy it against unarmed people with less fear of getting into trouble with the police. And your kids won't want to play with it once they know what it is.

Hope that helps. . .:hi:

(on edit)
I see your hubby's a former LEO. I think you are in good hands, then, on the the advice front!!

[j_klondowski]

60. Anyone with half a brain

Anyone with half a brain knows when they can and can't use a gun in self defense.

If you whip out your gun because someone cuts you off, then you're too unstable to drive too.

There are good courses out there if you want to get a CCW, the people that run them are used to teaching people who have NO experience at all, they take their time and give good instruction. Most are ex-police who were caring enough to help people defend themselves.

Pepper spray will not work quick enough on someone trying to kill you. I'm a law enforcement officer, and there is a reason we carry both. If a guy is charging you with a knife (assuming you can get the thing out of your pocket) he will cut you into pieces before the spray takes effect (10-30 seconds for full effect). Pepper spray is used to subdue resistant but unarmed people who aren't a major threat to life and limb, it is used to protect the attacker, not the intended victim.

A properly trained person with a handgun can adequately defend themself in most situations, get the training, get a lock (the kid in New Jersey's dad had a BAD safe) and keep your family safe.

Try that approach, but if you want to shoot some jerk in traffic, I'd suggest the pepper spray.

[xJlM]

25. Safety first

I don't blame you a bit, but make sure you're familiar with what you're doing. Nothing worse than fumbling for a weapon, and having your opponent disable you (and then take the gun away from you). Don't practice with it loaded, but learn well how to get it out, cock it and fire. Be prepared, as the Boy Scouts used to say.

[Cha]

27. I don't think you're "crazy"~ I wouldn't hesitate to protect

myself if the situation warranted it!

I would have to learn all those things you know.

I'm not fond of guns or what they've done when the wrong people have gotten a hold of them, but I've often thought that if an innocent person had the "equalizer" when a crazed person goes on a rampage then it would be so Nice to stop them in their tracks.

[proud patriot]

28. I got a Mastiff

:-)

[rppper]

67. same here, but it's a 85lb mutt.....

terrier/lab mix.....oh, and a mossberg 12 gauge, a colt m1911 .45 and the old trusty enfield .303, with plenty of ammo for each...enough to give the average swat team acid reflux anyhow. woe be to those that come in my house un-announced

[ReadTomPaine]

178. Nice Mossberg. They make great shotguns.

[TreasonousBastard]

30. I think I understand your concerns...

but is this really going to get to the point of shooting someone? Even treatening someone with a gun could escalate things if you're talking about good ol' boys.

Used to be people bought guns because of criminals out there, but neighbors? Local law enforcement is no help, even with your husband being one of them?

Me, I would seriously consider moving if things have gotten so bad. This isn't a movie, and sometimes you just can't fight them all.

[Brian Sweat]

42. I would like to think that it will not get to the point where we need to

defend ourselves, but it already has. A liberal talk radio host was shot in Colorado a few years ago and there was a home invasion in Florida a few years ago where A freeper went looking for liberals to kill.

These are just isoloated incidents. The radio host was killed by the Klan or some other hate group. The freeper in Florida was a wacko, but that is just the problem. As the Ann Coulters, Michael Savages and Rush Limbaughs continue to get worse, more mentally unstable freepers are going to go over the edge.

[jafap]

31. I decided to go with pepper spray

For one thing concealed weapons are not legal in this state. For another thing I could visualize bad scenarios involving guns. I walk alot, which is why I want protection. I constantly have cars full of teenage thugs (not to pick on teenagers. I am so old that even 25 year old thugs look like teenagers to me.) yelling things at me, and I worry that things could get uglier than just a little yelling.
I feel pretty safe in my car since it is a deadlier weapon than a gun. Cars kill more people than guns in this country, without even trying. At home there are things like hammers and golf clubs that you can use for defense. The best defense may be a cell phone, even though I hate them, that way you can call for help and your phone lines cannot be cut.
Of course I am paranoid as well since a paranoid is two "noids" and I am twice as nerdy as most people.

[NNN0LHI]

33. Knowing HOW to shoot and handle a gun does not equate with...

...knowing WHEN to pull and shoot a gun. Apples and oranges. The examples you cite do not indicate a need for a gun to me. In those types of situations driving to a police station or dialing 911 on your cell phone would make much more sense than pulling out a gun. You mention that you are a mother so I will assume you may be around small children. Even grandkids and such? I would be much more worried about one of them getting a hold of that gun and injuring themselves or others with it than any threat that you have mentioned. My .02 cents.

Don

[Zhade]

34. I used to be anti-gun, but things changed.

I always hated guns, because when I was 9, I knew how to use a 9mm. My dad used to take my 7-year-old brother and I to an open clay pit to shoot. His Air Force buddy usually came too, along with the guy's kid (who was maybe 6). My dad and his friend were usually drunk.

Dad no longer drinks - he's been sober for something like 13 years - but my hate for guns lasted a long time. I was threatened with being shot at one point, which didn't help.

Now I believe that guns are sometimes necessary. I wish it were otherwise. I'm a big fan of nonlethal weapons - stickyfoam, sprays of all kinds, tranks, stun nets, etc.

[mistertrickster]

35. Frankly, the Bush admin is so wacky--I'm thinking of stocking a few

more guns myself. Makes me feel like a FReep but heigh ho. Phil Gramm: "I got more guns than I need, but not as many as I want."

Anyway, if it's personal protection you want, I don't think you can go wrong with a pump 12 gauge shotgun. It looks like a flipping cannon from the business end, you've got eight devestating shots, you don't even have to be able to aim at close range.

Just sliding that shell eject bolt sounds like major trouble . . .

[name not needed]

38. i cant think of a title

i guess if you have to protect yourself, go for it. may i reccomend the glock 26? its a 9mm and easily concealable.

[Brian Sweat]

40. A 12 gauge is good for home protection,

but I get the impression that the poster wants to carry. A shotgun would be a little awkward.

[kodi]

45. hell, she can always saw the barrel off, or just ask randy weaver to do it

oh yes, i would prefer a 12 guage at full choke in my hands than a pistol if someone was attacking me.

[Character Assassin]

50. At close range, improved cylinder with lighter shot might be better

Wider dispersal quicker, with more shot pellets to disperse.

[j_klondowski]

61. That type of weapon has to be registered

unfortunately, any shot gun with a barrel of less that 18 inches or any rifle with less than 16 inches has to be registered with the ATF.

there is also a $200 tax everytime you transfer that gun too. If you get caught with an unregistered sawed off shotgun or rifle it is a felony that will get you 10 years.

But you are absolutely correct, a shotgun is the best home defense weapon. with the right ammo it won't go through the walls and it is easier to aim than a pistol.

Unfortunately, anything like that has to be registered.

[kodi]

99. that's why i mentioned ruby ridge's most famous resident.

and if a person had ever to choose what he was up against, he would much rather look down the barrel of a handgun than a shot gun.

well, at least a sane person would.

[j_klondowski]

113. sorry

guess, I wasn't paying attention. Too busy getting attacked by others on this thread.

[7th_Sephiroth]

176. what about

the spread, if your fireing across the room its bye-bye TV

[Brian Sweat]

39. Get in line.

I'm thinking of getting a 9mm also. Can anyone recommend a good weapon at a decent price?

[Withergyld]

213. Try to find an indoor range that rents handguns.

This may not be the cheapest route to start with, but beaing able to try it out before buying it may prevent you from getting something and not liking it.

[Noordam]

41. Go into a large store and kick the wheels of a couple

and find the one that feels right for you.

[Rex]

43. Buying a handgun doesn't make you safe

I would suggest keeping a baseball bat in the car. A handgun can be a friend or an enemy in a crisis - think about it long and hard before you buy one. Remember, you're not just talking about buying a gun, but also having it with you outside the home. It will be a lifestyle change for you.

[j_klondowski]

62. A Bat is a horrible idea.

Unless you have MAJOR training, any sort of impact weapon will be taken from you.

You have to get right up to the attacker, and have it come in contact with him. It you don't take him out with the first blow (and you won't) he will be able to grab it and then break you into pieces.

Handguns require training, but not nearly as much training as an impact weapon. They also allow you to back out of a situation while still reamining a threat to the attacker. With an impact weapon you are only dangerous for a few feet.

NO MATTE WHAT YOU DECIDE, DON'T GET A BAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[knight_of_the_star]

44. Blades are enough for me

But then again, most people don't know how to use knives in pairs or thrown blades very well, and its hard to find training outside of Ren Faires. Well, if you feel you need it, go for it.

[Terwilliger]

47. *BLEAH*

Don't do it...live your life on a different plane.

[MojoKrunch]

48. Too subtle. What you *should* do is...

Get a "two tone" Dodge RAM 4x4 with a lift kit, huge mud tires and at least 3 antennas adhered to it.
Hunting dog bumper stickers.
Naked girl mud flaps are optional.

Get a gun rack in the back window and put a semi-auto shotgun with camo stock and a belt clip with two dozen shells AND a perfectly legal, shiny black, AR-15(I like the "special ops" looking kind with the retrofit folding stock and short forestock... with optional night scope) with two clips dangling from pockets in the window.

And *then* and only then can you feel *SAFE*!

Or you could just yell back at them.
:)

Mojo

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. LOL

Think I've seen a few of those around these parts. :evilgrin: I drive a SS Camaro. Think I would rather out run them, than shoot at them. I don't like guns.

[The Lone Liberal]

52. In the book “Defying Hitler” the author tells this story.

At one point in 1933 Hitler decided it was time to round up the liberals, communist and others that stood against him. It wasn’t arrest that was carried out, it was murder, for all were murdered in their homes, bedrooms. The day after this occurred, there was a discussion at which the author was present. The discussion was between a group of Nazis lawyers. One stated “ they had not even armed themselves.” To which the other replied, “just like the dirty bastards not to arm themselves.”

[Scott Lee]

53. AMEN!!

Mari I am PLEASED to know ya.

Your post comes well timed. I am one of the few (or so I thought) pro gun leftists willing to state so in large groups. Had my arse chewed something awfull for it over at Bartcop too (which is one reason I left that place). You confirm my belief that liberals/leftists HAVE to get over their fear of being armed.

With the political climate the way its going, and the rancor and viciousness from these rethuglican clowns amping up (the arrogance of power) it is not only wise but essential that we learn to defend ourselves. I was trained as a kid (dad was hardcore democrat but our house was an arsenal) and still have a couple of firearms today. I applaud your decision and my only wish is that you get trained in safety and make sure not to buy junk thats gonna shave lead or blow up in your hand.

"Only a fool brings a flower to a gun fight"

take care

[karlschneider]

54. Well, I think you might as well. But maybe a better choice would be a

.38 cal revolver. I know it's fewer shots, but a revolver is a lot easier to operate...if 6 shots aren't enough, 15 probably aren't either.
Semi-autos are prone to jamming, even the high dollar ones are not immune. A six-shooter is extremely reliable. I have a few. And this is a tough call for me because I have said for years that most people have no business owning handguns (exempting, probably selfishly, those with a lot of experience such as myself - I have owned guns for 54 years and was a cop during my college years.)

If you do decide to get a handgun, just be sure it isn't left around where a kid can find it.

As much as I hate to say this, a day when an armed populace could be the last line of defense against fascism is no longer inconceivable to me.

[j_klondowski]

63. That would be a good idea too.

A revolver is more reliable (but reliability is not much of an issue if you get a quality weapon). The ammo is more powerful without giving more kick.

[jmowreader]

55. Forget pistols. Try this instead:

First, get a 12-gauge pump shotgun. Then visit my buddy Nick Nickerson's website at http://www.janrix.com/nk&a/ and get you some Less Lethal Ammunition. This guy sells rubber bullets over the Internet--primarily to bounty hunters, but he does do business with non-hunters. I recommend Hornet's Nest or Pen-Prevent. Load up with this stuff.

Then tape a goose round to the side of the weapon, just in case the less-lethal ammo doesn't work.

Make sure it's a pump shotgun--just the sound of someone racking a round into the chamber of a Remington 870 is enough to scare off most intruders.

Another big advantage to shotguns: a shotgun blast that gets through your drywall, insulation, sheathing and siding won't be at lethal velocity when it emerges. It probably won't make it all the way out of your house, and it may not make it through an interior wall. If you must shoot someone, the last thing you want to do is to shoot someone you like on the same round.

[j_klondowski]

70. Less Lethal, is good but...

If you are using less lethal, then you'd better be sure it works. If you miss, he has a bulletproof vest on, or for some reason it doesn't work. You are in BIG trouble. You should only use a gun when you need to protect your life or someone elses. When the situation gets to that point, less lethal is less than what you need.

I've seen guys (especially in winter) take 4 or 5 less lethal rounds and not even slow down. I've never seen (or heard of) anyone who took more than one round from a shotgun and kept attacking (I've even seen people wearing vests get taken down with a shotgun)

If you are going to protect your life, don't try and save the other guys, he's already decided your life isn't worth protecting.

[Silverhair]

117. Reread her post

In the lady's original post, she is talking about carrying the gun on her person - concealed. That is a bit hard to do with a shotgun. Otherwise, for home defense, a shotgun is excellent.

Don't do the rubber bullet thing. It is a bad idea. Your attacker is going to assume the gun is loaded with lethal ammo and is going to act accordingly. (Hopefully run, but if he doesn't and you have to shoot, the rubber bullet won't do much, expecially if the guy is high or pumped up on adrenalin.) NEVER EVER BLUFF WITH A GUN. NEVER!!!!! If you have to shoot, you won't have time to then load and chamber the one lethal round.

Even with rubber bullets, you can't fire until your are in the gravest extreme, and by that time it is too late for toy bullets.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. While I don't think guns are the way to go...

I find nothing wrong with this or how it goes against democratic beliefs. Democrats want restrictions on guns so that criminals don't get guns and so that people can't buy assault weapons. I don't believe you are a criminal nor do you say that you intend to purchase an assault weapon. Therefore, I don't see the problem.

[j_klondowski]

65. Let's be realistic, criminals don't use legal assault weapons

The guns used in crimes are stolen or imported (in large quantities) from 3rd world countries.

In africa, a fully automatic AK-47 costs about $50, in america a legal one is over $10,000. Gang members have been going to africa and china for years and buying up these weapons and smuggling them into the US.

The tracking system on legal guns has gotten good enough that they don't want to use any weapon that can be tracked, too much of a hassle.

The "assault weapons" we have in the US are ONLY semi-auto and are only used for target practice.

We need to stop kidding ourselves about what guns are all about.

[Hippo_Tron]

208. I wasn't saying that any of those facts are wrong...

I was saying that the Democratic party generally takes the position on banning assault weapons.

[Hoot]

59. I carry too. Its a serious responsibility.

Hello everyone.

Mari333, being able to buy a tool for personal protection is one of the greatest freedoms you can have (aside from owning your own home/property), but with it comes grave responsibility. You must be prepared for that. Someone here said it is a lifestyle change and that person is right.
When you carry you must be hyper aware of your firearm at all times. Its not something you can misplace like your keys, wallet, purse, etc..
You must also know your firearm and how it operates. There are small revolvers that carry very well, are easy to maintain, are easy to check for being loaded, and fire inexpensive but effective calibers. Which translates to more practice time for you!

If you are not confident about these responsibilities, that’s OK, go take a class in firearms safety and self-defense. Also, go to the shop and handle some pistols and see what fits your hand best. Stay away from auto's unless you are very familier with how to clear a jam, reload, make it safe, etc... They are a little more complicated than revolvers.

Hoot

[Zhade]

154. Good advice.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Paragon]

64. Boy, if anyone ever needed to see "Bowling For Columbine"...

Save your gun money. Rent the video.

[j_klondowski]

68. Sorry, that was not accurately portrayed...at all.

That movie was poorly done in MANY ways. You may agree with Moore's motives but he used too much sensationalism and exaggerations and he lost far too much credibility with that thing.

When moderates, liberals, and even some gun control groups are saying that he hurt their cause, it is obvious he was assuming that his audience was far dumber that reality.

[Paragon]

69. Hmmm...10 posts, eh?

OK...

[Terwilliger]

71. prove your assertions

shit or get off the pot

and forget about hardylaw.net for BFC...that's been debunked

[j_klondowski]

74. Ok what form you want the proof in.

As for my copious amount of posts, I believe strongly that if we are to defend our freedom or the press, freedom from unreasonable searches, freedom of association, freedom to have any sexual orientation, freedom from self incrimination. We need to support ALL of our freedoms in the constitution.

The only ammendment that flatly states a right is the second. The others have been interpreted by different justices appointed by different presidents. If we don't keep the 2nd ammendment from falling, they will have NO trouble making the others fall. If you know anything about what we have lost already, you would be agreeing with me.

[Paragon]

75. No one's here to take away your precious 2nd amendment

The issue is about fear and paranoia in America. If you'd actually seen the movie, you'd know that.

[j_klondowski]

76. I've seen the movie

If you weren't such an elitist you wouldn't have assumed that I hadn't. I'm a fan of Moore, I think he's generally pretty on target about things, but he lost credibility by exaggerating, and fabricating his story to prove his point. He could have made his point with more fact and less sensationalism.

If you'd not jump to conclusions you might find that people really aren't out to get you.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pandatimothy]

77. It's a genuine fear and paranoia of the govt

If you can't vote by the ballot box, you end up voting by the cartridge box.

Ask all the African Americans in Florida if their votes counted

[Terwilliger]

82. let's give them all guns, then

they can start a rebellion!

[j_klondowski]

89. What are you saying?

Are you saying that African Americans shouldn't have guns?

That is the most racist thing I've ever seen posted on this site. This site is supposed to be progressive and free from bigoted ideas. Tell me why shouldn;t african americans be armed, they can't handle them, their too violent? What racist reason do you have?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[j_klondowski]

83. Good Point

When African Americans were fighting to get equal rights, the black panthers were formed. Now I may not agree totally with their methods, they got their point accross. The powers that saw that realized that if they did not stop holding them down, then they were in trouble.

That's why I think every gay man and woman in america should be armed (heavily). Can you imagine the look on a redneck's face when he tries to attack some gay man who is half his size and is suddenly staring down the barrel of a shotgun. Or the Klan gahering that is broken up by 3 or 4 armed men and women who have had enough.

Criminals will always have guns, we need to make sure that we are armed (well) to keep the criminals from victimizing us (or those who we are all fighting for equal rights for).

[Terwilliger]

78. your response has nothing to do with Michael Moore's film

got anything else?

[j_klondowski]

87. Either you have no clue what the film was or you can't read.

which is it? Moore staged all the scenes, the bank scene is the one most cited. The title of the movie is also based on information that he knew to be false before he used it.

Are you just attacking me because you feel that I'm different than you? Or are you a genuine jerk trying to subvert this site? I wasn't attacking anyone here, I was agreeing with most of the replies on this thread, and I already told you that I'm generally a fan of Moore, what do you want from me?

Or are you just one of those overly aggressive people who pretend they are liberal to hide thier violent tendencies? Like those people who hide behind their religion.

[Terwilliger]

88. anything at all?

if your retort was any weaker, the letters wouldn't show up on the screen

[j_klondowski]

91. Look, your statements have absolutely NO substance.

I have backed my position, and back my position. You keep coming up with one line statements that are irrelevant. Your original thoughts (and I use that term loosely) have nothing but ignorant closed minded undertones, something that this board is trying to eliminate in this country.

Tell me what is your position. Do you have one. Or are you just going to make feeble arguements against everything I say.

Give me your opinion, I am progressive enough to allow people to express a different opinion than mine.

[Terwilliger]

112. white male, right?

you've SAID that BFC is full of lies and misperceptions...you've backed these assertions up with nothing but bluster

[j_klondowski]

123. Are you reading any of the posts?

I'm a jewish male, so yes if you wanted to stereotype me, I guess you could call me white. Actually I have a level of melanin similar to many hispanics I've met.

And before you start the further barrage of ignorance, no I'm not frugal, no I don't work for a bank, and no I had nothing to do with killing Jesus.

I have made SEVERAL statements regarding that movie, if you have a specific question, then ask. I'll answer it, but my job is not to satisfy your feelings of inadequacy.

[Terwilliger]

127. you've said absolutely nothing of substance here

YOU'VE proclaimed that what MM did was false info, etc....PROVE IT

[j_klondowski]

130. There are other posts on this thread.

There is this grey slidy thing on the right side of your computer. Put your mouse on it, click the left mouse key once and hold it, then move the grey slidy thing up and down and LOOK AROUND!!!!

Do you need a friggin map!

[Paragon]

102. Read:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

So, how crazy are the things they've said about "Bowling for Columbine?" Here are my favorites:

"That scene where you got the gun in the bank was staged!"

The Truth: In the spring of 2001, I saw a real ad in a real newspaper in Michigan announcing a real promotion that this real bank had where they would give you a gun (as your up-front interest) for opening up a Certificate of Deposit account. They promoted this in publications all over the country – "More Bang for Your Buck!"

There was news coverage of this bank giving away guns, long before I even shot the scene there. The Chicago Sun Times wrote about how the bank would "hand you a gun" with the purchase of a CD. Those are the precise words used by a bank employee in the film.

When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" – that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 – and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") – which I am filling out here for the first time – the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

[j_klondowski]

107. That is pathetic

The bank manager, and the employees have REPEATEDLY stated that the way the transaction was portrayed was wrong. Now I completely agree that it was STUPID for a bank to connect their marketing programs with firearms (completely stupid). The bank may be connected to the FFL holder but no one else EVER walked out of the bank with a gun, they were usually sent to a seperate location (granted the location was very close but it was seperate) to pick up the weapon. The bank did do the background check but that was part of their marketing, they were looking for a specific clientel (again a poor choice) and those who pased the background check were their target client.

I will REPEAT for those who refuse to be appeased. I agree with Moore's intentions (to a point) but I think his ends do not justify his means. If he has even one exaggeration, the people he is trying to target will ignore the ENTIRE work, and that is what has happened.

[Paragon]

116. Head, meet sand.

:freak:

[leanings]

153. Moore doesn't refute half of the charges Hardy makes

and the ones he does refute, he does so poorly. Moore makes no mention of the misleading impression he gave that Heston came to Flint right after the little girl was shot when in fact Heston came to a campaign rally eight months later. His defense of the selective editing of the Denver speech is also incredibly lame; the sections Moore edited out are make the speech much less inflammatory than he would have you believe. The most obviously faked scene was with the camera work during the Heston interview, where Heston is shown walking away with no camera in the picture and the film then cuts to a frontal shot of Moore. I guess this was a "recreation" but the film leads you to believe this was live stuff. Moore's manipulation of the Horton ad and misconstruance of the Lockheed plant are also fairly obvious attempts to represent facts in a less than honest manner in order to drive home a political point.

The bank employees have told at least three different reporters that the scene there was staged and was set up a month in advance. However, they've also said they don't like the way they were portraye, so I don't give them too much credibility. But there are plenty of other criticisms of the film that hold much more wieght.

Moore is entertaining, and the movie does raise many valid points. But he is first and foremost a propagandist, a mirror image of Rush Limbaugh. I guess he has his place, but I don't view him as some kind of noble standard bearer.

[slaveplanet]

158. Ouch

[MaidinVermont]

173. bingo

checkmate mate.

[MrBenchley]

203. That would be the Free Republic's Hardy, one supposes....

[leanings]

206. Is Hardy connected with FR,

or is his work just frequently cited? I have no idea about Hardy; he's obviously promoting a point of view, and as an ex-lawyer for the NRA he's obviously got an agenda. Same goes for MM. Unfortunately, Hardy in this case has presented very relevant criticisms of Moore's work that have yet to be refuted. Would you care to try to add to the substance of this discussion, or are you just taking the opportunity to inject snide innuendo per your usual modus operandi?

[Terwilliger]

207. Hardy's assertions have been refuted

like I asked a previous poster...got anything else?

[leanings]

209. Hardy's assertions have not been refuted-got anything?

1. Moore makes no mention of the misleading impression he gave that Heston came to Flint right after the little girl was shot when in fact Heston came to a campaign rally eight months later.

2.His defense of the selective editing of the Denver speech is also incredibly lame; the sections Moore edited out make the speech much less inflammatory than he would have you believe.

3.The most obviously faked scene was with the camera work during the Heston interview, where Heston is shown walking away with no camera in the picture and the film then cuts to a frontal shot of Moore. I guess this was a "recreation" but the film leads you to believe this was live stuff.

4.Moore's manipulation of the Horton ad-and I'm not talking about his "typo" but the merging of the two different ads.

I guess you can accept his nitpicking "depends on what the definition of is is" rebuttal of the Lockheed thing. If you're inclined to take a partisan stance for Moore regardless of the circumstance.

Now, show me where those four criticisms are rebutted.

[Terwilliger]

210. not specific, but all of these things are refuted in these links

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

http://hnn.us/comments/14978.html

Oh, and he's the "staged" bank



OnEdit: by the way...where are these new "errors" coming from?

[leanings]

212. I granted you the bank scene.

But there is absolutely nothing in those links which refutes factually the allegations made by Hardy. Nothing, nada. The primary defense of Moore, and the only one with the slightest bit of merit, is that Moore is making a film here, and has artistic license to portray reality in a manner that supports his contention. In this view, BFC is art. That's fine; I guess one could consider Triumph of the Will to be art. That's an rather bad analogy when the intent of the two films are taken into account, but the basic idea is the same; to represent reality in a manner that supports your POV.

The thing that troubles me is when people call BFC a "documentary". It seems to me that a documentary is supposed to document reality, i.e., give a factual picture of events as they occur and of problems as they exist in order to give the viewer a clear idea of the subject of the piece. BFC fails utterly in this regard. So if you want to say, "hey, it's a film", that's fine. At best, BFC can be seen as a movie, just The Matrix or Gigli. At worst, it's a piece of propaganda. But it sure as hell isn't a factual documentary designed to appeal to reason and critical thinking, and it's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

[Terwilliger]

220. Hardy's allegations

what allegations does he back up with any facts besides the ones that my previous links discredit?


You make your conclusions about the entire film based on these previous incorrect assumptsions, so once again I see crazy gun-loons in this worship of these little death machines...is there something wrong with you?

[MrBenchley]

228. He boasts about it on his home page

which should give you some idea of his overall judgement.

"Hardy in this case has presented very relevant criticisms of Moore's work that have yet to be refuted."
Rubbish...they've been refuted twelve ways from Sunday.

"Would you care to try to add to the substance of this discussion"
Hey, Hardy being proud to be a freeper pretty much negates any substance to his discussion for most sane people.

"are you just taking the opportunity to inject snide innuendo per your usual modus operandi?"
If I can do both, I'm a happy man...especially for people pimping for specimens such as the Free Republic's Hardy..

[Mari333]

92. I saw Bowling for Colombine I adore Michael Moore

But hes not a woman. I am. I am one of the only radical left wing women in my town. I am outspoken and everyone knows who I am. I am also afraid for my life when Nazis like Shwarznegger and Bush run roughshod over the electoral process, and when right wing hate filled talk show hosts and people at Free Republic want to shoot me and mine.
I wont let anyone attack me, and I will fight back.

[j_klondowski]

96. Good

You have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness just like Bubba. Most likely more right to it. Just stay safe.

[screaming_meme]

98. I agree. It seems even liberals are not immune from paranoid fears

You'd figure the intelligent, thoughtful people who post here wouldn't be subject to the irrational paranoia that runs rampant among inbred hicks in red states. Michael Moore PROVED even the worst neighborhoods in America aren't that bad. He stood on a Compton intersection for a WHOLE HOUR in broad daylight, and NOTHING HAPPENED. The media makes it seem like you'd be killed in a drive-by for even showing your white face in South Central LA.

You're falling into same trap, Mari. Instead of villifying black men or the gubbermint, you're villifying Republicans as if their Nazis on Kristallnacht. Sheesh.

[j_klondowski]

103. Racism is not the reason for worries

Moore stood there in broad daylight.

I would be willing to stand there (unarmed) for longer and overnight. I'm not scared of anyone from Compton, they have their own problems to go out and kill whitey. I'm scared of erosion of our basic freedoms, when we lose one it is easier to lose others.

African Americans don;t go out of thier way to kill white people. They aren't the ones that people fear, even the woman who started this link stated she's worried about rednecks. And we can agree, Bubba in his pick-up is FAR more dangerous than any part of LA.

[Mari333]

105. I consider the GOP to be heading in the direction of Nazis yes

and their followers also. In fact, I think many of them are already there.

[j_klondowski]

110. When it becomes a contest.

Between right wing radio hosts (you all know who they are), as to who can be the most closed minded and mean to every protected group, minority, and individual with a conscience, I agree with you.

Things may be pretty bad already, but they can always get worse.

[slaveplanet]

132. Some of us Intelligent

,thoughtful people have come to the truth that God ingrained fear in our psyche, for good reason. Much as one reacts to getting burned by the flame of a candle, the pain is necessary so we know of the future danger, next time round. One only has to take off their rose colored glasses , realize what planet they are really on. Study history and realize what point in history we are in. Most people are good, The bad the ones, well they're worse than you can probably imagine, and capapable of unthinkable Horrors.

Suppose the Juice went out for a week or more, corporate controlled food became unavailable or prohibitively expensive.
never going to happen you say .....rethink it a while.
While many people think they can hold off roving bands of looters with a pair of chopsticks....I cannot gamble with my family's lives in that manner, while waiting for a loving or not so loving government to ride in on their white horses to save the day.

one only need open ones eyes:
http://www.submunition.com/mtype/archives/000284.php


"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? <...> The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
-The Gulag Archipelago, A. Solzhenitsyn. Chapter 1 "Arrest", fn. 5.


"Unarmed people make good corpses."
-- Pol Pot

"The first thing you have to do is disarm the people. A disarmed public can't fight back"
-- Adolf Hitler

Over 65 million American gun owners didn't hurt anyone today.

[j_klondowski]

136. Very Well Said

That gave me chills (seriously) What you wrote should be read by everyone, regardless of politics. Thank you for your wise words.

[pandatimothy]

73. Check out this relaible 9MM for under $400

Easy to use and train with. VERY reliable.

Handguns have been availabe since the founding of this country, and unlike machine guns, have never been heavily regulated. Criminals will always have them.



http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=3072&return=Y

[Terwilliger]

80. ACK!! DemocraticUnderground.com advertising weapons????

anybody?

[pandatimothy]

85. Well she doesn't need a POS that will blow up after 2 shots

She wants a 9MM NATO, I reccomended one.

[Junkdrawer]

101. Terwilliger, check your PM. n/t

[neverforget]

81. If you really want to feel safe, get a .50 cal sniper rifle. Shoot the

criminal AND the car before they see you! <sarcasm> In all seriousness, if you want to buy a pistol, it's your right. But if you do get one, are you prepared to use it? Or is it just to make you feel safe? If I were you, I wouldn't get one because you are under stress.

[Mari333]

120. I think a civil war will erupt in the USA soon

and I think the Liberals are going to be the targets. Its that simple. I wont be caught without protection, as the Jews were in Nazi Germany.

[j_klondowski]

126. As a Jew

I would "like" to think that we do not have to fear being the target of an organized government attack. I think our worries should be focused on individuals who don't like our stance and our support of certain protected groups. We need to remain strong to show those groups that they are not alone in this and we will be here regardless of what is said by certain people.

[Zhade]

152. I agree with you. The rumblings are there.

NT!

[Fish Eye]

191. Why not leave this sinking ship then??

Do you want to die for this fucked up hijacked country??

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

86. I've got 9 millimeters right here in my pants

My wife will vouch for it. Lay it low, bring it hard.

[gully]

90. Mari..I support Dean but a handgun in your home is more likely to be used

against you and yours. Please give it much thought.

:hug:

[j_klondowski]

94. Only if you don't know how to use it.

Get the proper training, and get a gun safe.

[pandatimothy]

97. Not if you are throughly trained and committed to use it

in lawful self defense. Too many people buy guns without regard to actually having to use one.

[Silverhair]

125. Not so.

I personally know several women who have used guns in their homes to get rid of burglars. I don't know any women who had their gun taken away and used on them. The idea of grabbing someone's gun from them happens very rarely in real life, although it happens a lot in the movies. To stop someone from grabbing your gun - pull the trigger.

[pandatimothy]

93. Gun toting Liberals

http://www.geocities.com/guntotingliberals/

[meisje]

95. get a Glock with the Laser Sighting

either that or a phase plasma rifle in the 9 watt range;)

[j_klondowski]

100. Glocks are good.

They are good reliable pistols, but they are expensive. There is nothing wrong with them but you can get something just as good for about $150 -$200 less, with that money your could get a pretty good safe to keep it away from your kids. That would be a real savings.

[Mari333]

115. I have no kids at home

and a Glock might be too expensive for me...a Baretta is more my style or a Colt 45 government model. Or a Colt 45 Gold Cup.

Theres a shooting range near me and I would use it. I would also go through classes as they offer them here.

I use logic. I also know that when this election year swings into full gear, there are many threats being made already to liberals and Dems.

If the Jewish people had been armed in the Warsaw Ghetto, they would have been in a hell of a lot better shape then what happened to them. I consider all liberals and Democrats to be eventually vilified and attacked by the Thugs who are in the right wing ...and I wont allow them to come and take away my rights. Yes, I consider the Bush administration, at this point, to be in charge of a coup d'etat of my country.
I wont allow them or their followers to attack me or my family, Its that simple.

[pandatimothy]

121. Again I'd look into a Ruger 9MM

Relaible, easy and cheap. Berettas, Colts and Glocks are 500 plus dollars.

Part of this is to keep poor people from buying guns (IMHO) but good guns can be had for much less.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

155. Glocks, Berettas and Colts. Oh my!

A Glock will be cheaper than either a Beretta or Colt. Here's a comparison for you.

1911 and enough parts and work to make the thing infallable - ~$900 (My IPSC Limited class 1911 sports about $2200 of equipment and custom work). You would be lucky to find the gun itself under $500. A Gold Cup will run you around a grand, new.

Beretta 92FS in 9mm - ~$600

Glock 17 9mm - ~$425.

Browning HiPower - ~$600

Heckler and Koch USP in .45 ACP or 9mm - ~$750

Sig P229 - ~$600-$700

Of the above list, the only pistols I would trust my life to are the Glock (mine is a G20 in 10mm) and the H&K (USP in .45). The others are fine weapons, no doubt. From my experience, I have had trouble with the others concerning reliability. The H&K would darn near chamber an empty cartridge case. It never had a malfunction in 7K rounds. The Glock 20, while certainly nowhere near the 7K mark has never burped either.

My 1911 is notoriously bad at feeding hollowpoints. Hell the only thing left of that gun that is original is the slide and frame.

Hipower is a great gun, I'm just not wild about a single action auto for defensive purposes. GREAT gun otherwise though.

Whichever pistol you get, be sure to put at least 500 rounds through it to break it in. It may have reliability problems during the break-in peroid. Or you could get one that is dead nuts right out of the box too.

One last bit of advice: NEVER LET FIREARM SAFETY BECOME SECOND NATURE! Keep it at the forefront of your mind at all times.

Good luck to you!

[teryang]

131. Glocks are good for highly experienced users

I prefer them myself. But an inexperienced user needs to go through a lot of training before graduating to a Glock.

I know, I know, Grandma has a glock and hasn't shot herself yet. My great grandma smoked for 75 years and hasn't gotten cancer yet.

[Silverhair]

109. Some advice from a gun owner.

A revolver is harder to conceal. Also, because some of the works are exposed, the gun picks up dirt more easily, causing potential functioning problems. The best autoloaders, (In my opinion) are made by Sig-Sauer. Model P-220. They rarely jam, and are simple to operate and to disassemble for cleaning. Spend the extra money to get a grip style laser sight. It has two great advantages - if an attacker is not deterred by the sight of you producing a gun, the bright red laser dot on his heart may change his mind. Also, you can try a laser flash in his eyes. (Yes, maybe hazardous to his sight, but remember - you are trying get out of shooting him.)And of course, that bright dot tells you exactly where the bullet is going to hit.

Use Glazer Safety Slugs for your defense ammo. They are prefragmented so they shatter on impact and don't richochet or over-penetrate. That greatly decreases the risk to others.

Buy and read the books "In the Gravest Extreme" and "The Truth About Self Defense" by Massoud Ayoob. (I may have misspelled the first name.) Never mind his politics - he knows what he is talking about on guns and self-defense. You can read around anything else.

Good luck. I know several people who have used handguns to ward of common criminals and I have used one once to stop an attack upon myself. In each case, no shots were fired. The assailant suddenly decided the he needed to be elsewhere right away.

Silverhair

[ReadTomPaine]

157. Great advice, a few caveats

The P-220 with Glazers are one of the best combos around but there are a few problems..

1) The Sig P220 is pretty large, which can be a problem for people with small hands.

2) The barrel design is pretty high from the handle & exacerbates a rolling action recoil

3) The DA/SA trigger quality varies wildly and an unmodified P220 has a lengthy DA trigger pull for the first shot (the one that counts!)

Lastly, they aren't easy to get serviced properly, you need to find a good gunsmith who knows his Sigs.

Despite this, they really are one of the best pistols around. Glazers are recommeded no matter what you select, btw.

[Silverhair]

160. True

I am a big guy with big hands. You are right that a lady will have smaller hands and could have trouble with a big gun. Something else would probably be advisable for her. Something smaller in 9MM would probably be better for her. She doesn't need a large magazine, as most "social encounters" don't use more than two shots.

I don't considedr the SA/DA a problem. If they are far enough away I can quickly cock it as I bring it up & use it SA. If they are so close that a DA shot is needed, then a slight miss will still be a major hit.

[ReadTomPaine]

163. Do you think a .380 with Glazers would be good in this case?

Curious... since they are so small it makes for a high convenience weapon, but I'm not so sure the stopping power is adequate even given the smack that Glazers provide. Any thoughts on this? (See my post #147 towards the top of the thread regarding size)

[Silverhair]

195. A well placed .380 beats a miss with a .45

Since the .380 is easier to conceal it could easily be available at times the larger gun would not be. And if she can control it better, then it is definately better for her. And she can always shoot an assailant again.

[GregW]

214. I would recommend a Sig 239 with Glasers or JHPs

Probably want .40 S&W, and Hydroshocks or PowRballs.

I shoot a Sig 226, Walther P99 and will probably end up with a Kimber in .45 ACP tomorrow for targets.

[MaidinVermont]

119. I'd suggest a wheel gun

A 357 would suffice. The gas feed autoloaders can be troublesome in times of need unless you spend many sessions in action shooting.

[Mari333]

129. I had a 357 once, good weapon, more powerful

no 22's, no 38's....head shots. 357 magnum has more powder behind it. yes.
I doubt I will ever have to actually use any gun. But I now believe the US has reached the point where anyone who does not agree, or fights against the policies of the thugs in this white house, and his followers, will be targets of the right wing extremists.

Dont blame me, just look at Wellstone.

[agincourt]

122. 5 more years of Bush,

and I think we are all going to need guns on this board. Just to keep the roving freepers from bumping us off for two dollars worth of bread.

[pandatimothy]

128. Thats why it's so sad to see the Democrats push renewing the AWB

The Repukes knew it was poorly written and all the people that shoot at the local public range have AR-15s and "Rush is Right" crap.

They are going out and stocking up on guns and ammo. For what?

See protecting yourself and your family trancends politics. Or it should.

Criminals will cap a liberal just as fast as a conservative.

[j_klondowski]

133. I still think

That if we just became neutral towards firearms then we would not only suck 2-3 million people from the republicans, we would be able to further the important parts of our platform easily. Just think, equal rights what a concept. I'm convinced we would have no more presidential problems.

[pandatimothy]

137. Bush has said he supports the current AWB

So if the Dems were smart, they would oppose the AWB altogether and let it be a state issue. 7 states have AWBs and the rest do not.

We would put the NRA in a bad spot as they tend Repuke.

[j_klondowski]

140. That would be a good way to do it.

Turn the thing around, make them have to justify their stance to all thier NRA supporters. If we make this an issue of personal freedom, then we can solidify our position greatly.

[pandatimothy]

144. Dean has it going on but he needs to take it a step further

and oppose the AWB which he will not do. He supports a national AWB.

He is right on to say that Wyoming doesn't need the same gun control as New York.


However the guy in Wyoming who shoots prarie dogs with his .223 should not have it banned because a drug pusher used one in NY.

[Zhade]

166. Dean should poll his supporters. Perhaps they now oppose the AWB?

Talk about a way to establish street cred on an issue - actually asking the people who support you what they feel on the issue. I'd be thrilled to have a candidate show they are that committed to their desired constituents.

[slaveplanet]

151. That would be

The smartest move they could make. It'll never happen though, they'd be crucified by the corporate media . The Corporations want Gun Control BAD.

[BeHereNow]

124. Anyone who HAS NOT thought of...

getting a gun is not paying attention!

Mari, I hear you. loud and clear.
I am a mom too, and NEVER in my life did I EVER
think I would consider owning a gun.
However, the hate-mongering RW radio is actually
advocating violence against anyone who disagrees
with the neo-fascist head set of this country.
The military has been polled on the question o
whether or not, in the name of national security, they
could use they weapons on fellow Americans.
The RW fundies are frothing phrases about doing
GAWDS' will to justify war and asassinations of people
they consider "EEEEVIL."
Hell yes, I hear you Mari-
BUT- I will tell you that I am not going to make the decision
under stress, and that I am indeed.
Also, the fact that I am considering such a thing has
also led me to seriously consider LEAVING the country
I love, but now fear.

I am so sorry about your son- I have a nearly 17 year old
daughter, and I seriously believe the draft and mandatory
service is coming. Therefore, I think rather than buy the gun,
I think I may just get the fuck out of hitler-ville.
(((Hugs to YOU Mari))))

BHN

[Mari333]

134. Its not just Bush and his thugs wanting to murder my son

and send him overseas...Its something Ive been mulling over a long time..with the CA election debacle, and the right wing even more determined then ever to attack everything we stand for, and the media laying down like whores for every right wing agenda, I am finally in the realization that I am now the one they want to kill, people like me are the ones they want to destroy, and I am in the minority.
I wont go down without a fight. I will not let anyone harm me, and if I have a gun, I will feel safer. I live in a Republican area, and I watch the freeper boards. These people would kill me and mine in a heartbeat.

[j_klondowski]

139. Has this been a family decision?

Not to take away any of the arguement (I completely agree with your sentiment), but what does the rest of your family think of your decision?

[Mari333]

196. My husband agrees

he and I are the only ones here at home. My son is in the National Guard, he owns his own guns. My other son is in Seattle, he is a peacenik like me, and I doubt he would buy a gun, but he is in Seattle after all...my youngest son wouldnt know , hes still 20 and immature..my stepson is a police officer in training, so its a moot point on his part.
I grew up with a dad who used a rifle to hunt so we could eat. My grandfather also had a large collection of guns , some civil war era..he had to sell them all during the depression.
Oddly enough, Im the only liberal feminist pinko in a family of (many of them) rednecks and hillbillies.
Why I wanted to read Kafka and Voltaire is beyond me...maybe some misplaced gene snuck into my psyche. Anyway, the choice would be me and my husband.

[BeHereNow]

142. Damn Straight!

We ARE the ones they want to kill, or at least
severely injure.
I live in CA and I consider the Terminator Takeover
to be the first step in giving the freeps the license to kill.
The fascist cabal has been planning this for a long time-
Californians put a serious hitch in their plan for a one party
government- the recall has solved that.
I am constanly amazed at the number of hate mongers
I encounter in the so-called progressive state of CA.
I am, like you scared.
I get flipped off on the freeway for my bumper stickers.
I've had enough.
Let them devour one another-
They are not going to get the chance to get me or my loved ones.
I have become a recluse, trying to decide where I want to go
from here.

BHN

Typo edit

[haymaker]

135. Nothing like a gun thread to

bring out the wackos.

Frightening times are these.

[Clark Can WIN]

141. Just who are the whackos?

I'm curious.

[slackmaster]

193. That's for sure

I take flak from the gun wackos on these forums almost constantly, usually in J/PS. Of course I invite it.

[GregW]

215. Yes, who exactly is a wacko?

[Shanty Oilish]

143. While I'm pro-gun, Mari...

...and a brief search of my posts in J/PS will show I'm all for equalizing (arming women)...I do tend to agree here with the DUers who are suggesting other options. (NOT the bat or the spray!) Terwilliger says live on a different plane...another DUer says maybe just move away, if it's that bad.
The situation you're describing is, basically, an entire town of unfriendly folks. And it sounds like you've got roots, like it'd be rough to move, but if you've ruled out friendly overtures and reconciliations, if it's that bad, being armed might hurt sooner than it helps. If it ever helps.
It seems odd to me that you live in a rural area, own a preserve, and have experience with guns, yet don't own one already.
Do you actually have good reason to fear anyone in particular? Fearing everyone doesn't seem reasonable---although you may be, for all I know, on firm ground there.
Is it THAT political where you are? That pervasively political, and that bitter?
I don't know your situation, Mari, but I hope you think it over and consider alternatives. Maybe mend some fences, throw a big party and feed some of these folks one day, let them find out you're not so horrid after all.
Just my 2 cents.

[leesa]

148. I'm sorry they sent you there with their fear-mongering.

Because the gun will probably cause you some sort of heartache in the future. We have become a nation filled with manufactured fear. At least the gun makers scored another sale.

[j_klondowski]

150. If she feels threatened, then her fear is real.

If people are following her the fear is real.

I agree that paranoia is present in america. But trying to prove it by not addressing your own fear isn't right.

[Mari333]

156. Here's a scenario

If Governor Arnold had had a gun pulled on him the minute he attacked and assaulted the women in California, he might have thought twice about it, and possibly might not be governor right now . I wouldnt hesitate for a second to shoot a man who would come up and attempt to assault me. I would aim for the knees.
Bring him down slow. If he would try and assault me further, he would be shot in self defense, in the head or the groin.
Or, as Susan Brownmiller said once, if every woman shot the man who raped her and killed him, rape would end.
And while we are on the subject of guns, arm all the women in Islamic fundamentalist countries.
In the meantime, the women in the USA are in full assault by the GOP. and all the gay folks too.
If Matthew Shepard had been armed, and knew how to shoot, he wouldnt be dead today.

[j_klondowski]

162. Actually if Matthew Shepard had been armed...

those pathetic closet cases that murdered him would have crapped in their pants, turned, ran, and never done that again because they would have been so humiliated.

That is why I say...

Arm the opressed!

[Zhade]

167. A lot of guys think like that. I know a few. Check out this website, too.

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

[kevinc]

169. Shoot to kill

You cant aim for the knees, they are very small target with a high probability of missing

If you are threatened enough to draw a gun on someone then shoot to kill..aim center mass... thats it and its self defense

[oldcoot]

217. Good advice

She may not get a chance to fire again if she misses.

[Ellen Forradalom]

159. When a friend of mine said he only shoots 9 mm

I asked "What kind of film is that?"

[kevinc]

164. get the Glock 23C

packs a whollup, compact and compensated barrel (vented less recoil)

[kevinc]

165. and oh yeah check this out

http://www.shagrat.net/Html/cows.htm

[Hoot]

168. Unfortunately porting may blind you at night

Porting is great for competition but can be a disadvantage in low light.

[kevinc]

171. Thats true...

but you squeeze off 2 well aimed shots....
first and you are good to go..or get a laser sight

[Zhade]

170. THAT WAS GREAT!

:)

[HitmanLV]

172. why do you think you are in physical danger....

...and who do you expect to shoot?

[ReadTomPaine]

179. Simple...

>"why do you think you are in physical danger...."

because she's surrounded by violent ideologues. You've seen those types!

>"...and who do you expect to shoot?"

Anyone who threatens her or her family with physical violence, of course.

[HitmanLV]

184. and....

...how long has she felt violent types have taken an interest in harming her or her family?

[ReadTomPaine]

186. Read thru the thread...

I know it's long.. but it's all there AFAICS.

[HitmanLV]

189. I read it.....

...but I'm sorry to say I was trying to do my best Dr Phil Hartley impression. ;-)

Last time I checked there was no open season on liberals, and likely won't be.

[Hoot]

192. I agree.

Last time I checked there was no open season on liberals, and likely won't be.

Even though her fear may be irrational the action she takes to make herself feel safe is perfectly OK, and her right (I say that cause a few disagree), but I hope she understands the responsibility of carrying.
She must also understand the difference between shoot/no-shoot situations. Someone simply trying to push her buttons or instigate her by tailgating her car is not a reason to pull her carry piece.

[ballistic_tip]

216. Very true...

I don't think anyone here needs to be afraid of a freeper assault. Some members of the Democratic party made a huge error when they chose to make gun control a part of the party platform. It's one thing to be peace loving, but it's quite another to try to force your beliefs on someone else regardless of how good your intentions are.

[nannygoat]

194. What about adding one of those bumperstickers

this property protected by Smith & Wesson?

Seriously, though, how many of you think the NRA and their minions would freak if a great number of liberals started packing guns (didn't join their organization but just started buying and carrying guns)?

[Mari333]

201. Michael Moore is a card carrying NRA member

AND he owns guns. and yes, to answer some threads, I do fear for my life if Bush gets re-selected, and if he doesnt, even more so..think of the backlash we are already in, and the chest beaters who live all around many of us in rural areas..
I would never shoot anyone or aim a gun at someone who was flipping me off in my car...but I would definetely shoot someone who was armed or trying to come onto my property with an intent to harm my family.
I listen to AM talk radio, I see the elections being stolen, I see the reich wing becoming stronger and more sure of their agenda.
I also see myself, now, as a minority in a sea of danger that is swelling. Not just paranoia, but re reading history and the dangers that fascist regimes pose to common people who disagree.
I am not one to keep my mouth shut in a world of fascists , therefore, I am going to consider arming myself. Its Michigan, so it wont be so hard.
I prefer Ghandi non violence at protests, I prefer sitting down and chaining myself to a fence, I prefer all of that. But if I am armed at home, I also prefer to know that no one will ever knock down my door because Im a liberal and violate my private home. Patriot Act 2 and the Patriot Act, and even extremist Rushbots who think they are acting on behalf of their right wing interests, have made all liberals the "enemy". I refuse to allow them to destroy my life in their quest for power and control any more then they already have.

[MojoKrunch]

218. Then you should *seriously* talk to your local NRA trainer

and a lawyer about what is and is not legal in terms of defending your home and person with a weapon.

Because when you buy a gun for "self-defense" you should expect to use it against another human being.
Period.

Otherwise, it is all just a waste of time, effort, money and ethical fiber.

Mojo

[bearfan454]

199. I have a Taurus 9mm, a 357 magnum, a deer rifle, and a 12 gauge

pump. That is good enough for me. Stockpile ammo too before they make it where you have to thumb scan to buy ammo.

[Patriot_Spear]

202. There you go, 12 ga. Pump- sloppy and intimidating...

You don't have to be too accurate and nothing get's their attention like the sound of cycling a slug into the chamber.

Get a cheapy Mossberg and you're good to go.

[Patriot_Spear]

200. Better have some weapons cached as well...

Find out what the frostline is in your region and bury your cached weapons/supplies below it- Use industrial grade PVC tubing, capped and sealed on each end to store ammo w/weapon. Make sure you grease the barrel and action of the weapon for long term storage.


Hidin' stuff is second nature in this part of the country.

[einsteins stein]

204. Fight or Flight?

You in yet?

Click to subscribe to the New Revolution Group!

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If you already joined, welcome to the revolution!

There are two polls and a few messages waiting for you online.

See you there!

[Wcross]

219. Kimber .45 is my choice.

I carry a Kimber pro carry .45 semiauto. It has an alloy frame, loaded it weighs about 1.5lbs. If you are willing to shoot somebody to defend yourself, you should be willing to punch the biggest hole in them you can. After years of the 9mm, our military is slowly going back to the trusted .45 cal, try out a Kimber or other 1911 type pistol, the saftey features alone are worth it.

[Fescue4u]

221. Good for you!

Realizing that one must take responsibility for oneself is just part of growing up (not to imply that you havent already)

[Upfront]

222. 9 mm

is a good choice. Sounds like you need one. The training you will receave before getting a permit is well worth taking even if you later decide against getting a gun. Go for it.B-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

223. How about just getting a dog?

Like, a big dog...with big sharp teeth, and who is hungry a lot.

:)

[Forkboy]

226. I dont think you should set your sights so low

I think you try to build a bomb in your efforts to keep safe.

[dand]

227. It's great peace of mind,

I have a Kahr P9, it weighs 17 ounces with an empty 7 shot magazine, I have a concealed weapons permit, and i never hesitate to carry it.A remington 9MM hollow point is all you need.

[Forkboy]

230. Well I think you should get a bomb too

just in case the other person has one.

[Township75]

232. what kind of 9mm

sorry if you already answered this, but there were so many posts by the time I got here I wasn't going to read them all.

If you want a suggestion, consider a Walther P99. I have one and it fits so well into my hand. It is expensive but I would definelty purchase it again.