The DiIulio Letter and Libertarian involvement in this administration.

[The Backlash Cometh]

I'd like to hear from Democrats on this newsgroup who are familiar with the DiIulio Letter, in particular when DiIulio described how this administration was influenced by Libertarian insiders who had no idea what the purpose of government was for.

Any comments would be welcomed.

Apparently there is a poster on this newsgroup who is having trouble accepting that Libertarians have, in fact, been the ones behind the push for free marketing and other such dismal failures that we have currently been experiencing.

[Racenut20]

1. What has been going on

Is pretty the Libertarian Party Creed isn't it?

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. You know that and I know that, but apparently a long-time Libertarian/

libertarian poster to this newsgroup is having trouble grasping that point. So any bit of help that you Democrats can give him to understand that the point you just made is a far gone conclusion would be appreciated.

[blm]

3. The CATO Institute crowd.

I don't trust them in government and I don't LIKE them as people.

If it was up to them, they'd deregulate EVERYTHING, especially the energy industry, and screw us all.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I know, I know.

I agree with you. Thank you for your comments.

[Wwagsthedog]

4. Lets not badmouth everything about Libertarianism

Many of them now realize what a disaster our fearless leader is. Some are on our side when it comes to objecting to the looming budget disaster, the intrusiveness of the patriot act, the failed wars overseas & on drugs and erosion of first amendment rights. Yes, they do have plenty of ideas we cannot agree with such as free trade. How do I know about this or care? I can argue with local (there are three) Libertarians and we can agree to disagree. They don't call me names or question my national allegiance as do some of my other neighbors. If you ever discuss politics with one, try to convince them that Democrats might not represent their idea of nirvana but we have more in common with them than the current evil regime. We can use every vote we can get.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. There really is no point in trying to talk to them.

And I would never agree that we have anything in common with them, because they aren't willing to admit how much damage they've caused by infiltrating the Bush Administratin with ideas of free trade.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. I yield to my fellow DUers on this matter. You, Character Assassin,

are the one marching out of step on this newsgroup. And you're the only one who hasn't noticed.

Your problem is that you won't accept the truth. That is something you need to work on. The DiIulio Letter is valid and it blows your argument out of the water. All the insults in the world, aren't going to change that.

[Character Assassin]

9. The truth is easily seen. Let's see if we can't get it out in the open.

There are some political sentiments and positions that I am in lockstep with on this board. There are others I am in direct opposition to. This is a fact apparently lost on you.

Your problem is that you won't accept the truth. That is something you need to work on. The DiIulio Letter is valid and it blows your argument out of the water.

Here's your big chance. Since my last post, for whatever reason, was deleted, I'll spell it out for you.

Please substantiate exactly and precisely how that letter 'blows my argument out of the water'. But before that, please confirm that you actually understand what my argument is by concisely stating it. I don't think you can, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind:

A. The letter mentions libertarians twice, libertarianism once.
B. No names are named.
C. No specific support is made to link any policy with any libertarian position.
D. You have yet to detail how this one letter can be considered the de facto revealed truth concerning libertarianism.
E. Lastly, you purposefully mix and match the terms Libertarian and libertarian, despite having had the differences spelled out for your, ad nauseum. Therefore, if you call 'a' 'b', and you call 'b' 'a', very little credibility is likely to be given to any argument you proffer when resorting to this technique.

You are making the claim that this single letter is both accurate and the argument that 'blows mine out of the water'. Please feel free to step up to the plate and support it. All that you have done so far is refer to the letter, but you have never actually explained how it supports your position.


All the insults in the world, aren't going to change that.

You are, I feel, far too easily insulted. It's funny how my posts are never deleted except when speaking with you, and pointing out how I see your statements as frequently less-than-representative of a position that could generally be accepted as truthful.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. Cite your sources. My position is truthful and supported, yours is opinion

I came across a beaut for you regarding the DiIulio Letter:

http://www.thedubyareport.com/nopolicies.html

Here's a quote:

"But one subtlety in DiIulio's observations is that it is Rove's relationship to Republican base constituencies ("including beltway libertarian policy elites and religious right leaders"), rather than Rove himself, that governs the policy process DiIulio outlines ("reducing every issue to its simplest, black-and-white terms for public consumption, then steering legislative initiatives or policy proposals as far right as possible"). These constituencies believe, apparently without any factual basis, that "Poppy" Bush lost in '92 because he didn't pander to the right. (They would probably not put it that way.) The reality, according to DiIulio is that there are fewer than ten House districts in the country where a libertarian or right-wing religious credo would attract a majority of voters"

Now, my position is that Libertarianism/libertarianism is influencing this administration, particularly in the area of free market trade. And I also believe that this is a Democratic tenet.

You not only disbelieve that Libertarianism/libertarianism is influencing this administration, you also discredit the D.Letter and any Democrat who would believe in it. But to stay in good with DU, you also claim that the "intelligent" Democrats on this newsgroup would side with you.

Do I have your position stated correctly so far?

I'll be back by Sunday. By then I want:

1) A reliable source which supports your position that Libertarianism/libertarianism is not influencing this administration. (Just want to be sure you're not pulling the information from a humid, puckered part of your body.)

2) The name of Democratic DUers who agree with your position.

Now that's not a lot to ask for.

Have a nice weekend.

[JHB]

11. "beltway libertarian policy elites"

That's CATO, the Manhattan Institute, and their compadres

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. I know, I know, I KNOW!

Why do you suppose CA is being so stubborn?

[Character Assassin]

16. Because other than a citation of an opinion.....

You haven't once, not in the slightest, most cosmetic of manners demonstrated either (A) which libertarian policies are being implemented by the admin or (B) how the policies currently implemented by the admin are actually libertarian.

All you can do is quote other people who themselves have not addressed the above points.

[JHB]

18. Based on my one or two run-ins with him...

...he doesn't consider them "true libertarians", that they use the term wrongly when they describe themselves as such.
(If you read this, CA, and I'm wrong, please correct me.)

I actually agree with him on many issues, but he's a Momma Bear if he feels the hallowed name of libertarianism is being besmirched.

[Character Assassin]

24. Gladly done. Libertarianism most definitely has its problems, believe me

...he doesn't consider them "true libertarians", that they use the term wrongly when they describe themselves as such.
(If you read this, CA, and I'm wrong, please correct me.)

That is correct and, in addition, I have yet to see anyone in the current admin describe themselves as libertarian. I have yet to see anyone from CATO, for that matter, describe anything that this admin does in terms of economic policies as libertarian.

I actually agree with him on many issues, but he's a Momma Bear if he feels the hallowed name of libertarianism is being besmirched.

The name of libertarianism is by no means hallowed, friend. It has failings, practical shortcomings and absurdities like any other idealist philosophy. The trick is understanding where it and human nature necessarily collide and working out potential problems from this point.

However, when discussing, say, leopards with an wildlife specialist, one doesn't point at a giraffe and say, "Oh, it's really a leopard. I mean, after all, everyone knows that what giraffes do is exactly what leopards do."

One would hardly expect to be taken seriously.

[Character Assassin]

15. I'll use your source, thanks.

"But one subtlety in DiIulio's observations is that it is Rove's relationship to Republican base constituencies ("including beltway libertarian policy elites and religious right leaders"), rather than Rove himself, that governs the policy process DiIulio outlines ("reducing every issue to its simplest, black-and-white terms for public consumption, then steering legislative initiatives or policy proposals as far right as possible"). These constituencies believe, apparently without any factual basis, that "Poppy" Bush lost in '92 because he didn't pander to the right. (They would probably not put it that way.) The reality, according to DiIulio is that there are fewer than ten House districts in the country where a libertarian or right-wing religious credo would attract a majority of voters"

Now, my position is that Libertarianism/libertarianism is influencing this administration, particularly in the area of free market trade. And I also believe that this is a Democratic tenet.

You not only disbelieve that Libertarianism/libertarianism is influencing this administration, you also discredit the D.Letter and any Democrat who would believe in it.

That is a typical misrepresentation of my position on your part. I don't 'discredit' and Democrat who believes in it. I stated, again, that the ones I see around here are too intelligent to buy into your claims about it and too honest to misportray its contents.

But to stay in good with DU, you also claim that the "intelligent" Democrats on this newsgroup would side with you.

Do I have your position stated correctly so far?

Given your history of mistating what I write and mischaracterizing my own positions and beliefs, it is very difficult to take seriously the notion that you've stated my position correctly 'so far'.

I'll be back by Sunday. By then I want:

1) A reliable source which supports your position that Libertarianism/libertarianism is not influencing this administration. (Just want to be sure you're not pulling the information from a humid, puckered part of your body.)

You clearly have no concept whatsoever of how claims are supported or arguments are structured. YOU made the claim that the letter is not only representative of libertarianism, but also that libertarian policies are being implemented by this admin. Back up your claims. It is not my job to help you support your position, and it is up to you to do so.

You have never done so, other than quote other peoples' bland assertions.

2) The name of Democratic DUers who agree with your position.

You don't even understand my position to begin with, so why would you understand what you're asking for?

Now that's not a lot to ask for.

Have a nice weekend.

Here's a little tidbit to leave you with, as to the veracity of that cartoonish link you offered:

"A libertarian, Barr opposed some of the provisions of the Orwellian PATRIOT Act.

Bob Barr is a libertarian? If you can't see the utter ridiculousness of that, it's not my problem but it is my place to question your ability to address these issues in an honest, straighforward manner.

[sangh0]

21. Thanks for using a reputable source

instead of using a Holocaust denial site, which is what you did the last time I had a disagreement with you, CA.

And thanks for making me laugh with your demand to "Back up your claims". What do want, a link to the Flat Earth Society?

[Character Assassin]

22. Dodge, dodge, dodge your way, merrily down the thread...

instead of using a Holocaust denial site, which is what you did the last time I had a disagreement with you, CA.

A. I was unaware of that fact until it was pointed out to me.
B. The factual information in regards to what we were disucssing had nothing to do with that.

And thanks for making me laugh with your demand to "Back up your claims".

Ok, tough guy, I invite you to do the same thing. Please demonstrate:

(A) which libertarian policies are being implemented by the admin or (B) how the policies currently implemented by the admin are actually libertarian.

No, I'll wait. Go right ahead.

[sangh0]

25. Untrue

A. I was unaware of that fact until it was pointed out to me.
B. The factual information in regards to what we were disucssing had nothing to do with that.

And after it was pointed out to you, you continued to claim that the site was credible.

(A) which libertarian policies are being implemented by the admin or (B) how the policies currently implemented by the admin are actually libertarian.

Tax cuts, energy deregulation, denying civil service protections to employees of DHS

[Character Assassin]

26. Quite true

And after it was pointed out to you, you continued to claim that the site was credible.

I continued (and continue) to maintain that the information regarding the subject matter was credible, not the site. Prove otherwise.

(A) which libertarian policies are being implemented by the admin or (B) how the policies currently implemented by the admin are actually libertarian.

Tax cuts, energy deregulation, denying civil service protections to employees of DHS.

Those are not libertarian, those are republican half-measures.

Libertarianism would not just cut taxes, they would be practically (but not totally) eliminated, whoesale. Energy deregulation? Puh-leez. The gov't would not be in the power business whatsoever under libertarianism. Is it still involved? Denying civil service protections to employees of DHS? There wouldn't even be one under libertarianism.

[IrateCitizen]

13. I didn't think that the DiIulio letter had anything to do w/ libertarians.

I thought that it was a direct and biting criticism of how everything in the WH is politicized. I thought that the comment he made regarding "these people have no idea what government is for" was directed primarily at Karl Rove and the political advisors in the WH.

DiIulio basically wasn't a bad guy, and he headed up the faith-based plan because he probably saw it as a different approach that could work. But he was cut off at nearly every turn by the WH political team, because they were only interested in using it for political advantage, not whether or not it might actually work.

As for the libertarian angle, I think you're a little off. They have a lot of solid ideas on issues like Pentagon spending, corporate welfare, personal privacy, drug legalization, and so on. But I'll never be one, because I see their ideas of a complete lack of business regulation as a recipe for disaster, and it is something that, IMHO, will only serve to reinforce the ethos of selfishness and greed that has so permeated our society, rather than helping to get rid of it.

[Character Assassin]

17. Absolutely correct.

I'm glad to see at least one other person with rational powers of observation comment on this thread.

[IrateCitizen]

20. Which part was absolutely correct?

The part about DiIulio's criticism stemming from the fact that the WH was politicizing everything, or the part about libertarian economics being a recipe for disaster? :evilgrin:

[JHB]

14. If the description "libertarian" is the sticking point, call them..

("them" being the CATO/Manhattan Inst./etc. wonks)

...call them SADIMites, since their fundamental belief is that government is a reverse Midas, that everything it touches turns to lead (or softer, smellier substances).

[Liberal Classic]

19. Occam's Razor meets Murphy's Law

This administration isn't particularly libertarian, and I don't any effects of said influence. :)

[Character Assassin]

23. Try getting someone to actually support their claims to the contrary...

However, and you'll be left with nothing but citations of citations that themselves are unsupported.