PBS Frontline: Truth, War and Consequences...Bye, bye Bushies!

[TruthIsAll]

The whole story, so far pulling no punches. From Wolfowitz to Chalabi to Perle (bashing CIA) to the Office of Special Plans ...

This is IT! The beginning of the end..

Bush will never survive the truth, which is coming at him from every quarter. After this, and Leakgate, he is TOAST!

No question about it!

[leftyandproud]

1. PBS and NPR are doomed..

The only real left wing networks in existence...I think we can kiss them goodbye in next year's budget. Lets hope they get enough private donations to keep up their excellent programming.

[ozymandius]

3. They know this is coming someday.

That's why they have established rich endowments for themselves.

[KoKo]

24. "We Went to War for an Experiment?" Yes, said one of Chalabi's fellow

Iraqi Governance group buddies, when the Frontline interviewer asked him that question.

Can you believe? "An Experiment."

[cprise]

4. So nice to see they're on the cutting-edge of post-invasion reporting

Those networks live off corporate donations now. The rest of us are too strapped to donate.

Information should not be a charity cause. That's why public broadcasting elsewhere uses license fees.

[kwolf68]

7. NPR

Pissed me off tonight. They basically ruined my trip down I-66 today. It almost sounded like the Republican News Network.

NO NO NO...I don't pretend they are rightist, but I don't think they are "Liberal" either. From my point of view, their All Things Considered News Show takes a hands-off approach to the Chimp.

The one thing NPR does do is bring in people from Liberal think tanks...A guy was from the American Enterprises Institute yesterday I believe and he was good.

[punpirate]

10. Am I mistaking something in...

... your juxtaposition of "Liberal think tanks" and the AEI?

AEI is the premier right-wing think tank in the country....

Cheers.

[Cooley Hurd]

17. *buddlebuddlebuddle*

I shook my head on that one, too.

[sendero]

21. It is important...

... not to confuse NPR and PBS. PBS still has the balls to run some real news. NPR does not. All anyone has to do is listen/watch for a while and that becomes totally apparent.

[Dude_CalmDown]

8. I wouldn't exactly call them left wing

I'd call them honest - for the most part. I'd say that they are not as big of sluts as CNN, FUX, etc. I'd say they at least have a pair. I'd say they are doing the minimum that all our media should be doing. I'd say they are 100 times better than the rest. But I would also say that they are not nearly perfect. I would also say that they let far too many important things fall through the cracks. I would even go as far as saying that they have an undeserved appearance of being "left wing." Oh what the hell, I’ll just say it: They have an undeserved appearance of being left wing.

[Toucano]

9. That might motivate me to armed rebellion! :) n/t

[jab105]

23. Why do you call it a "left-wing" network?

Because it has Bill Moyers?

Cause it also has Charlie Rose...

What I saw (all but the first 2 minutes of the program), it was a damn "fair and balanced" as you can get!

[not systems]

38. Charlie Rose is not liberal.

He is a neocon propagandist.

[Flying_Pig]

2. This is countered by all the major networks this evening, showing

Bush trying to make (still) his case on Iraq, giving speeches in front of hundreds of hand-picked, clapping morons. :puke:

I still don't sense "blood in the water" as far as the mainstream press goes. It's like they dip their toe in the water with a negative report here and there, and then wait to see if it gets traction with their viewers. I still don't think the majority of lazy, fat, SUV driving (yeah, I'll use all the cliches) network watchers, are all that riled up yet. And while I agree, the evidence is there for Bush to BE toast, .....he's not toast yet.

:grr:

[rasputin1952]

5. That is precisely why I'm taping this...

I want everyhting I can get against this admin, and this 'war'.

If I get flack, I am more than happy to invite pug's over for a viewing...they have to be weaned from FAUX....

:bounce:

[greekspeak]

6. Remember: PBS and NPR stations don't carry all PBS and NPR programs

I did not realize this until I moved to Florida, really. My local NPR station back home basically aired a fraction of the NPR programs. I did not know Diane Rheim, Tavist Smilie (excuse the spelling on these folk's names), and other programs. The PBS station would show a lot of local programs. So remember that just because it is on NPR and PBS, that not everyone can see or hear it.

[rasputin1952]

11. Well...

for what it's worth, that was some damn good reporting. Up to date, and honest, no insane rhetoric, and showed Iraq bombed out and blasted into oblivion.

Cut and dried, not bad at all.

I was particuallrly impressed with them saying that no one in the admin would talk to them; one guy willing, was told to back off.

All in all...very informative, I'd love to see some of the outtakes though.

[Gin]

12. Chalabi gags me....when I think of my hard earned money going to all

these bastards...I could explode. We have been paying his way via the cia for years.. before we invaded Iraq. Now we pay his way and its obvious. Bremer said the reconstruction alone will cost 100 billion.
That's in addition of what it cost weekly to keep the forces there.

Chalabi also said...we can leave and they would be ok...but I think he still wants us to send money. Like the damn blood sucking vermin he is.

[Oilwellian]

20. I agree except on one point

Granted Clinton was paying Chalabi for quite some time as a means to support an Iraqi resistance effort but it was the CIA who backed off of supporting Chalabi after his Jordan conviction. It was the CIA who convinced Clinton not to go to war in Iraq. Tenet remained adamantly against Chalabi's intelligence sources when Bush took office, yet Bush chose it over our traditional intelligence apparatus to promote the war. Now we see Chalabi trying to break away from Bush's control and he's obviously manipulating the Shia to do the same. In essence, the CIA was right. Don't trust Chalabi.

On Edit: The documentary was superb. Everyone needs to watch it. If you don't get PBS locally, it can also be viewed here starting Saturday.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. Interesting how "right" the CIA has been on a lot of things

and of course they should be as the ultimate intell. agency on the planet. But then why can't Bush seem to use it properly? They told him there were no WMD's, and now this. I'd say this is a liability in that it shows Bush's inability to effectively use the resources available to him. I think it's obvious we have a serious leadership defecit.

[Blue_Roses]

47. LOL!

Love the penguins!!!

[leesa]

29. I can't imagine the Iraqis would suffer Chalabi to live for even one day

after we are kicked out.

[arendt]

27. If this stuff was on every night, like Viet Nam was, Bush would be...

breaking rocks on a chain gang by now.

The difference between the debacle in Iraq and the
debacle in Viet Nam is that the media refuse to
tell the *&^%$^& truth.

They won't report our heavy handed alienation of
the population, our support for a tiny clique of
corrupt exiles, the total state of war between the
Pentagon and the State Dept, between the WH
and the CIA.

Its the Four O'Clock Follies without the Follies,
just a bunch of infomercials for Halliburton.

This one show is the exception that demonstrates
just how badly the US media has failed to perform
its duty to inform the public of the *facts* as opposed
to the *opinions* and talking points of our rapacious leadership.

The media are whores.


arendt

[nomaco-10]

13. I've been raving about the importance and

relevance of what we just watched on another thread. I watched it, maybe 30 or 40 people from du watched it with the heads up we gave today, but who else watched it? Will CNN, MSNBC or FAUX do a piece on what we've just seen, no, I don't think so. I'll run into a hundred people tomorrow and if I asked everyone of them, "did you see Frontline last night?", I'll bet 7 or 8, if that many, would say 'yes, I did, WOW, it was unbelievable, I didn't know that's how we got there or what was happening over there now'.
The truth is there for anybody that wants to find it. You don't even have to look that hard anymore. There is no longer any excuse to turn a blind eye to this corrupt administration and the unimaginable grief that have bought to so many.

[FlashHarry]

14. Watching it now. Brutal stuff. If only the sheeple would watch.

This should be compulsory viewing for every registered voter.

[SteveG]

15. an hour and 5 min. into it...

and it is brilliant... fair... honest...everything Fox, CNN and MSNBC cannot be.

[chookie]

16. First-rate documentary

Frontline is the best. I have an archive of their programs, which I consider a valuable part of my history collection.

They did an excellent job in telling the story.

Trouble is -- who's watching it? Me, of course -- I never miss it -- and other members of the "intellectual elite." I can think of one "swing voter" of my acquaintence who might be watching it, but none of my less vitally interested acquaintences (most of which are liberals) EVER watch this excellent program, because, as you know, many people find it painful to think. (Only one thing they hate more than documentaries, and that's subtitles :-)

There may be some tv magazine program on Madonna or Arnold or The Bachelor tonight, or maybe something where people eat worms that are just SO MUCH more fun to watch than a documentary that has real explosions and real blood in it. Who wants to watch stuff that makes you think when you have to go to sleep so you can get up early tomorrow? ANd who wants to have gory stuff on like that when your kids might be up, because you don't want them to know there is a big war going on because they will be sad about people being killed, when you want them to be like you and not think about stuff either? Of course, positive images about America like President Bush dressed in a pilot's uniform on an aircraft carrier are better for kids -- right? /sarcasm off

On one level -- you can be sure this is a real "OH FUCK!" documentary for this villainous administration, but in the end, Cheney and Unka Dick will get out the Johnny Walker afterwards and laugh and say "who watches this shit anyway?"

Still, I am going to talk about it, make copies of my tapes, and give them to anyone who expresses an interest in the war, and who will devote 90 minutes to trying to understand it.

[julka]

18. here

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

plenty more

extended interviews with many of the principals, including Bremer, Garner, Makiya, JOSEPH WILSON (who wasn't on the show), and others.

also a discussion

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/talk/

also, Tim Robbins on Daily show right now

[goforit]

19. What country are you living in????..........America????????

That place is long gone!!!

[Bozita]

22. If there ever was "MUST SEE TV" ... this IS it!

absolutely superb.

[Faygo Kid]

25. Agreed. Just great.

Too bad it probably had about 1/100th of the audience of "American Idol" or "The Bachelor" - but then that's how the Bushies get away with it, isn't it?

[Catherine Vincent]

26. Just watched it also.

It was a good one. But you know the right wingers will always say that they only show the negatives of the war.

[rasputin1952]

32. But what are the positives?...

They can only say they booted Saddam out, big deal. How many thousands of innocent Iraqi's died in the bombings? Why are our people still targets over there/

I can tell you, it will not be long before the soldiers over there start shooting at anyone and anything, and who could blame them? They have a massive amount of firepower, but crumby intelligence; they cannot find any of the prime tagets, and are being sniped at continually. This is a recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

And when is the last time you heard anything of the plight of a US mitigated fight in Afghanistan? WTF is Osama, and the rest of those swine?

For once, the real story gets told, and because it is on PBS, not many are watching....that's why I taped it. Think I'll have copies made tomorrow, and hand them out.


:grr: :nuke:

[fencesitter]

43. Did you read the replies in the Discussion ....

portion of the Frontline Web Site? The rights response is PBS always shows the US as bad and wrong. Complete dismissal of facts, just anti-PBS crap. "They should stick to British comedies".

[TexasPatriot]

28. chilling coverage

The Iraqi who was a taxi driver and had his car run over for stealing wood... and the tankers laughing about it and having a good time...

and every time the camera men were anywhere near a US army group there was a civilian casualty - and the troops had this callousness. Once you get past the sheer human injustice (if you can) you come to the cold realization that the arab world will crucify us with this... it's no wonder the army started telling cameramen to turn off their cameras.

and its all in our name

[ramblin_dave]

30. Program available online starting this Saturday...

per this link:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

[quaker bill]

33. Actual "Must see TV"

Excellent show.

Interesting that it was largely Neo-Cons and INC folks in their own words. They make our case as well as any liberal could, perhaps better because they are the "true believers".

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. Kick

:kick:

[neebob]

35. I thought it pulled some major punches

The biggest ones being oil and corporations and INC members' wealth. They totally left all of that out.

I was going to order the video for my mom in hopes of shaking her belief in the goodness of George Bush, but it made him out to be a well-intentioned victim of government chaos and in-fighting. Or perhaps I should say it left room for that interpretation. I'm afraid it would only lead her to conclude he needs more power. And I don't think her disdain for Arabs would allow her to empathize with the Iraqis having their cars crushed and their doors busted down and being shot and everything.

Otherwise it was appalling, maddening, embarrassing, and depressing. And just today I saw some footage of Smirk talking about how good things are in Iraq. "People coming back from there are stunned," sez he. Only he's staying they're stunned in a good way. There's a lot more than just arrogance and stupidity going on there. He's a psychopath.

[Bozita]

37. It neglected Chalabi's embezzling conviction in Jordan.

small shit

about $75 MILLION

[Toucano]

40. Didn't Clinton snub Chalabi?

I seem to recall something Chalabi's attempt to start an uprising several years ago, but Clinton pulled the plug.

I can detect the stank of Chalabi's corruption and skumminess right through the TV. What are the odds he becomes the first president of Iraq-usa?

[Bozita]

41. IIRC, Clinton cut the funding of Chalabi and the INC.

Then PNAC popped up.

HHHHmmm.

[Toucano]

39. There are weaknesses to the report,

but there is no room for doubt that the mother's and father's of US soldiers didn't consent to sending their children to Iraq to bring democracy and liberation to the "disdainful" Arabs.

They sent their children to prevent a "mushroom cloud" from developing over American cities. There was never a threat. Smirk wasn't simply "mistaken" about that. He systematically rejected any intelligence that contradicted what he wanted for his war.

Keep working on Mom! You have to open her eyes to the fact that he intentionally LIED to get what he wanted. There's no place else to put the blame.

[Toucano]

36. What I didn't know

Maybe it was discussed here but I had no idea the Bremer was a "protege" of Kissinger and a business partner.

I had missed the Meet the Press when Cheney called our "coalition" buddies in the Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia. How old is his globe?

I did not realize that the State Dept. plans for post-war Iraq were ignored. I always thought they had no plan.

I was reminded that next time I get a parking ticket, I fully plan to invoke Rummy's "free people break the law, free people do bad things" excuse. All my life, I've been unaware of this clause. Oh - wait - I'm an American, and he said "free people". I don't count. Lucky Iraqi's! They get the free 21st-century infrastructure while I'm taking my dog's antibiotics! :)

[Dover]

42. I was stunned when the U.S. soldiers turned on the PBS cameraman

during a gun battle with Iraqis that was actually taking place in the complete opposite direction.
Some poor man standing near the cameraman was shot dead.

You can just tell that our soldiers are firing at will over there and probably only receive a wink and a nod as opposed to displine when such "accidents" occur. There seems to be no distinctions between one type of murder and another. Citizens, the press, the person shooting at them from some building.....all the same.

What will happen when these soldiers return home? Empty vessels all...

[GCP]

46. "Was he a shooter? No? Never mind", walk away

Unbelieveable. No wonder they hate us.

[Postman]

44. They really don't tell you why Chalabi's group was favored..

over hard intelligence that turned out to be the actuality on the ground....Although they did a fair job, they could have done better.

Chalabi's group was favored because he could be used as the poster child for democracy in Iraq and as the cover story for the real goal. The PNAC pre-conceived plan to invade Iraq, link it to 9/11, and grab the oil wealth establishing a pax-americana in the Middle East.

The biggest bait & switch act in the history of this country.

And this administration is still in power???

I'm no Clinton fan. What do you think they would have done to Clinton if he had done this????

[TruthIsAll]

45. Next time, we need an equivalent no-punches story on 9/11..