I'm leaving the US as soon as I can sell the house.

[symbolman]

I'm selling the house and getting the hell out of this country.

The smarter jews saw the writing on the wall and got the hell out while the getting was good.

In another thread someone talked about Civil War here. So I replied that I thought we should build a wall just like in the Middle East from California to New York and declare one side "RightMerica" and the Other side "LeftMerica"..

Then we can throw Ahnold back over the border into Texas and let him rule there. See if they can find a cowboy hat that will fit his huge fetal head.

I'm actually serious here.

BUT, One problem would be that the RightMerica would ARM themselves, use Nukes, Media, whatever, against the LeftMerica - attack and enslave the Peaceful ones there - stick them in Corporate prisons and grope their women.

Then they'd take the wall down and charge everyone to use the Nice clean parks and buildings of LeftMerica --

So you see, there really is no point to having a Civil War at all..

They've already won. The corporate prisons are next, imagine travel agents at home in front of a computer making plans for rich guys to travel with a cuff around their leg that's hooked to monitoring equipment at prisoner mission control, while they make less than minimum wage.

NOW They want to monitor ALL THE FOOD? Oh, that's rich - that's scifi and will serve only corporations and nothing else. People are complaining about new types of Diabetes. Frankenfoods that will starve people while they overpay to get it, and probably end up having to get their church card punched to get any.

Meanwhile we are goose stepping all over the world for Jesus.

ALL THAT IS HAPPENING to this Nation is only about the BOTTOM LINE for Corps and nothing else..

Call the Terrorists "disgruntled employees" rather than "enemy combatants" - corporate wars have been going on for a long time, used to be a joke, but now that we are all Fodder and the Idiot Boss's son is in charge on a scale unimagined it can only get worse..

Remember in Soylent Green how the woman was considered "furniture" and came along with the house? Think about how The Gropenator acts. Don't have to be psychic to figure out what's coming.

We're like the animal in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" that's been genetically engineered to "want to be eaten".. we've all been trained to want to be fucked by corps and those in power, by and for the media.

Me? I'm leaving the country as soon as I can sell the house. I'm going elsewhere til it gets better, and if it gets worse and they won't let me back in or it's too Nazified by then, well then fuck it - it's not my country anymore at that point.

I'm going to a small controlled land area that is communal, where I know that my pals and I can defend ourselves, where I can grow my own food and know what I put in my mouth is safe, and keep a low profile (tho I will still be creating animations and whatever else to fight these bastards as much as I can) and live happily with a minimum of fear. We are going to need each other more than ever now.

Just like that Savage guy at the end of the book Brave New World. Between that book and 1984 I don't know which one is more on the money.

Time to become a global citizen anyway.

But, don't forget - We're going to need people like YOU when the Humans take over.

[thebigidea]

1. I've been back and forth about this for ages

depending on how things go in 2004... if the monkey gets back in, I'll be fucking crushed. And packing for France - just a manual typewriter and grandiose novel ideas.

Wake me when its over.

(but probably this is just post-Arnold depression brought on by being a part-time Californian.)

[symbolman]

6. I don't want to even be IN

the Northern Hemisphere my friend -- a pal of mine talked about liquidating and heading for India where you could live like a King on the cheap..

I mentioned that here are Pakistani NUKES aimed at India right now.. quivering Pakistani Nukes with short fuses..

That Nuke cloud is going to travel on the wind.. look at the CHIMP talking about putting Nukes in Europe AIMED at Iran.

If it involves death and destruction they DO do as they say.. no hesitation..

so it's either the equator (where food grows all year) or the southern hemisphere for me.. the internet is everywhere, so you don't have to live anywhere in particular..

time to learn to catch fish with my hands, already lived in Alaska for a decade, I know how to survive under the worst of circumstances, anything else (like tropics) will be gravy :)

Let's split the difference and turn ourselves in begging for Political Asylum in Tahiti :)

I'm serious, think I'll hang out in Hawaii and learn how to make shoes out of reeds, steer by the stars and give them shit over the internet :) if it gets bad enough a short boat ride to New Guinea or Tahiti may be in order..

we may be the last generation to have any sort of "freedom" - better enjoy it now, it may save your life..

you DON'T want to be in a CITY when the shithouse burns down my friends :)

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. my friend, your age is showing

from one who has lived through much worse than this...
there was a time when people were shot for protesting a war.
there was a time when there were nervous soviet triggars on nukes.
there was a time when people were hauled before congress for their political affiliations and casual friendships.

this is a much better time than then.

[eleny]

105. Let me add one more to your list bearfart....

there was a time when there was a draft.

[Unforgiven]

206. Draft

If things keep going to hell on the "Eastern Front" you may see the return of the draft.

[magnolia]

129. HO HUM....

...another "'I can't take it anymore, I'm leaving!' As you throw down your toys, thread".

I guess that's why we have such a high divorce rate in this country...when the going gets tough, the tough cut and run.

The US, whether you like it or not, is a very powerful force, in fact the most powerful force on the planet. That force can be used for good or for evil. If all the dissenting voices leave, this country will be left to the evil and there won't be a safe place on earth. Not even an igloo in Antartica, because we'll be dumping trash and nuclear waste there. There's always Mars, I guess.

Seriously...take a look at planet earth from an astronaut's perspective. Notice...no boundries, no lines between countries. Boundries are a man-made illusion...they only exist on maps. We are all in this together. The question isn't about where you live, it's about whether you're going to fight or not. Those of us in the US are closer to the cancer and have a better opportunity to make a difference. If Bush gets another term...there is no place I would rather be than right here...in the USA!

[thebigidea]

131. contradiction

"Notice...no boundries, no lines between countries. Boundries are a man-made illusion...they only exist on maps. We are all in this together."

if that's the case, why are some calling him a coward if he crosses an illusory line?

[magnolia]

159. I didn't call anyone a coward!

I'm saying it's irrelevant where you live. There is no escape. You can fight here or somewhere else. Iraq is on the other side of the world...do you think that's a safe distance from Bush?

[Cocoa]

138. Kucinich expressed this very well last night

a vision of the potential of the U.S. At the debate, he gave the best answer to an audience question about how to undo all the hate directed at the U.S.

The realism in his answer was the key. Dennis is well aware of all the bad things going on, but instead of being lazy and giving in to the apocalyptic fantasies, he's proposing realistic solutions like his Department of Peace.

[Tinoire]

144. Which most people are scoffing at because they prefer to continue

the disastrous course we've been on for decades regardless of which Party was in charge...

I'm with my friend Symbolman here. I am already making preparations to get the hell out of this country because people are refusing to read the writing on the walls and do what it would take to ward off the coming catastrophe.

America is no longer no 1 and never will be again. It has NOTHING to do with Bush- all Bush did was to preside over the kiss of death.

People are unwilling to stand behind the one candidate who has understood this and prefer to lull themselves into the illusion that if we just get Dean or Kerry or ABB in office, things will "magically" revert.

I am too saddened to see the response that Dennis is getting from too many thinking people who should know better.

Dennis can't do it alone and it is because he is being shunted aside for lesser men who do not have the understanding that this hate must be undone, that I don't want to stick around either.

I'll be with Symbolman. The PNAC cancer is already eating away at both parties.

I'll work my fingers to the bones for Kucinich and after that my entire attitude will be KMA because I'm out of here. I will stick around for the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth when reality starts setting in.

It is with sadness that I will leave my country.

[Cocoa]

161. Dennis is being shunted aside by you

His proposing realistic constructive solutions, against the odds, is directly in opposition to the unrealistic defeatism expressed here.

Dennis is sticking it out, and if he loses he's not going to move abroad, I can guarantee you that. What Dennis is doing in this campaign is going to serve as a foundation for future work. He'll stay in Congress and make a difference there, and proably run for president again, building on the work he's doing now.

[Tinoire]

171. lol- that's real cute.

America is in a damn melt-down because of idiots who think they can either create or enable this mess and then get everybody to stick around in a show of late solidarity.

I've been fighting 20 damn years now and I'm TIRED. Dennis is my LAST hope and AFTER I've done working my fingers to the bones THEN I will turn my back on this whole sorry mess.

Dennis laying a foundation for future work my ass. The FUTURE is NOW. It's not in 2004 or 5 or 6 with Dennis serving as some lackey to people with less vision and conscience.

Yeah, stick around, stick around til you're 60, 70 years old stuffing shopping bags at Wal-mart or pushing carts at Safeway Foods because you're really fighting the system that way.

It's a sad assed sorry country and it's not going to get any better anytime soon based on the kind of crap I've been seeing on DU lately.

I read the script a long time ago and it's all unfolding like clock-work. You stick around if you want- I'm going back to the better places I lived where people don't buy the stupid crap that's being pushed here.

Nope- going to live somewhere where people don't wait til the last damn minute to realize the danger they're in.

Pain-in-the-ass Liberal activists will be the first to go.

[info being]

163. I agree with you completely

It is the fault of the American people. Fuck our ranting about the media...either a person has a heart and concious or they don't...and most Americans simply don't.

Life is too short to hang out with sub-par humans.

[Tinoire]

181. There's some guy down in Politics and Campaigns forum

complaining that all Kucinich talked about during last night's debate was Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. I'm glad we were't sitting across from each other. I don't understand people who want to pretend these are normal times.

Heart and conscience... I'm at the point of giving up in total disgust. Damn what ugly times.

[truthseeker1]

210. No kidding. That's what it's really all about.

Who we co-exist with. I cannot believe the stupidity and like you said, the lack of conscience of my fellow Americans - no, wait, even more importantly, my own family of dittoheads. Yes, folks, I've broken free of the dittohead genealogy of my family. I'm the only one who has seen the light, and thus, am known as the "Californian flake" of the family. If we fail in 2004, Bush will be one step closer to a truly fascist state. Once they take over the Supreme Court, it will be all over and I, for one, am not going to stick around to see fascism in full force.

[Myra]

178. Tell ya what magnolia

If we decide to leave and discuss it,
then it's our business. If you decide to
stay then it's your business.

Pretty straightforward, huh?

[punpirate]

2. I'm considering...

... Costa Rica or the northeast coast of Brazil (learning Portuguese would be okay). Still gonna wait until the 2004 election, though, to see what happens.

[thebigidea]

3. yeah, this election is going to be quite a ride

talk about yer "Fear and Loathing"!

[Fish Eye]

28. Have you spent time

in CR?

[punpirate]

35. No....

Costa Rica's sort of second on the list, in part because I have the belief that wealthy Americans have corrupted the economy to a degree.

That said, I have plans for small businesses that might flourish in either place, and provide well-paid employment to a few people. Still researching details, though.

Costa Rica has its problems, but they at least have made some moves to free their population from unnecessary burdens (getting rid of the military when it was not needed is one of them).

I'm still looking at Brazil because of the change in government there. If Lula turns out to be what people have expected him to be, progressive Americans will likely be welcome there.

Still sifting possibilities.

Cheers.

[arcos]

191. why corrupted the economy?

because of sportsbooks and casinos?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. 2004

I think my hubby is not ready to see the writing
on the wall

I have seen it, (Patriot II= Enabling Act of 1933)

[La_Serpiente]

5. I'm waiting for 2004

If Bush is re-elected and the Repukes still have the Congress, I'm fucking out of here because they'd take the Supreme Court anyway.

That's three branches too much.

I feel like an immigrant with push factors pushing us out of the country.

Before, I was with Dean...now I'm teetering on Dean and Kucinich...i'm not sure..

In fact, I wouldn't care if Kucinich ran for Prez and lost...we'd still maintain our spirit. Dean kind of described it a little bit last night...but I don't think he fully understands it...but he sure knows it a hell of a lot better than Liberman.

Many Democratic Politicians, especially in Washington, have lost that spirit. That's what I realize now. They've forgotten where they have come, thus, they do not know where they will go. Kucinich and Braun touched upon these issues last night...and they understand it.

Many Democrats start off on the left and then go to the center...that's a good strategy...but you don't just side with issues on the left...with develop that spirit of the left.

I'm still deciding where I would go...I'm thinking about Montreal. Either Russia, Mexico, France, or Spain.

But for now, I'm working my ass off for the Democrats this year.

Cheers to you all.

[symbolman]

7. I'm hoping that the Democrats

will show more teeth - they seem to be growing a spine but the media is beating them senseless - GOre or whoever better hurry up..

At Take Back the Media http://www.takebackthemedia.com we've been trying it all with virtually no money - we do have plans to have the ARMY OF ONE as a TV Commerical running in probably New Hampshire (if it all works as planned) and Tampa after the first of November..

We;ve got radio, animations, etc.. hey, I'm a Democrat and *I*m trying.. but I can do it from a safe place too :)

[Nay]

22. I am, too, La Serpiente.

If this bunch of crooks gets back in, I'm outta here.

[Kitsune]

97. Ditto that

After the debacle in California where the media elected Arnold using the vast pool of uninformed voters, I'm almost certain they'll do the same thing for Bush come 2004 (and even if that doesn't work, there's always massive, massive vote fraud). But I'm not bailing just yet. I figure, if the Dems can win in 2004 (which is pretty unlikely), I'll stick it out.

If what I'm thinking is going to happen happens, though, it's Canada for me as soon as I'm done with my undergrad education. I wonder if they'll consider leftists political refugees by then...

[meisje]

8. don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya

.

[thebigidea]

9. how tacky

I suppose all those writers/artists who spent years in Europe are somehow traitors or cowards?

Then again, I never really got much into the jingoist jingle.

[0rganism]

10. If you want to be a big help, why not buy symbolman's house?

That will show us some of your genuine concern, instead of your smartass "personality".

[delhurgo]

14. Good riddance. How bout it? :-)

If we get rid of the lefties, then maybe we can win an election.

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. Well atleast one of you...

...admit that you CAN'T WIN AN ELECTION ON YOUR OWN MERITS.

[punpirate]

20. Best way to _lose_ an election in this climate....

Whenever I hear people in the US describe right and left, it's always in the terms of the very recent political climate.

For example, in Europe, Jacques Chirac is seen as only slightly to the left of Le Pen, still well to the right of prevalent opinion there.

Here, Chirac is seen as being so far left, he might as well be a communist (which means something quite different there than here).

There's been thirty years of constant propagandizing by the right in this country, and there's a couple of generations who've been greatly influenced by it, which has contributed to the general shift to the right, as your post suggests.

Just remember that what is now considered "far left" in this country was the center, thirty or forty years ago.

Cheers.

[el_gato]

64. what a moronic statement

:eyes:

[hang a left]

101. We won in 2000, what the hell are you talking about?

[punpirate]

104. Yeah, we won, but we lost....

Overcoming _that_ reality, boogered as it was, is one of the questions that can only be responded to by addressing the problem with a genuine plan of action.

Cheers.

[foreigncorrespondent]

15. Oh that is really big of you.

People have a right to be scared. People have a right to say enough is enough and give up. Not all of us can put up with having some piece of shit at the helm of a country.

Yeah if you don't believe in rights, then you would stay, but if you want to live and be free at the same time, you would also be considering the idea of moving.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

145. Let me guess? An expression you picked up from Rush? n/t

[Tinoire]

146. Let me guess? An expression you picked up from Rush? n/t

[JCMach1]

11. Already there, I am a teaching and doing darn well

in one of the most multi-cultural places on the planet right now. I teach University Students from 72 different nationalities in my classes.

The UAE also has one of the fastest growing economies on the planet and it's not JUST about oil. Within the next year, the world's tallest building starts going up in Dubai (the Burj Dubai).

And did I mention NO CRIME...

However, I will keep voting in the U.S.

Unfortunately, my extended family will be caught there for some time to come.

[LunaC]

12. Making the same plans too

When I "got" what the PNAC/Bush regime was all about, I decided to leave too. Target: Mexico. Timeframe: early 2005.

Wanna' rendezvous in Guadalajara?

:pals:

[hang a left]

102. Oh yeah, Viva la Baja

[truthseeker1]

211. Wish we could go to Mexico

but hubby likes colder climates :-(

[La_Serpiente]

13. Perhaps....

I think I will experience a Bohemian revolution...in France.

[shake n bake]

17. hasta la vista!!

[thebigidea]

18. I think you forgot to insert a gratutious comment about going back to Iraq

[punpirate]

19. You put shake n bake on chickens, don't you?

I fergit, not watching commercial television.... :evilgrin:

[Maccagirl]

21. Buh Bye

Your tombstone is ready.

[Fish Eye]

29. you are assuming that

you will see them again??? Are you leaving??

[hang a left]

103. que la via bien

[Kamika]

23. i think you got it wrong

Now as i got it youre jewish? there is possibly no other jew friendly country in the world then the us, and yes i know israel is there.

If theres anything the rightwingers like its you guys (at the moment).

And also yeah the country might be in a political mess but its still the best country in the world, and i have no doubt that youll regret moving away.

[thebigidea]

25. phew

"If theres anything the rightwingers like its you guys (at the moment)."

yeah, the rightwingers just luuuuuuuuuuuuuuv takebackthemedia.

"And also yeah the country might be in a political mess but its still the best country in the world, and i have no doubt that youll regret moving away."

I don't understand that "best country in the world" thing. Please explain!

and you have NO doubts? That's confidence!

I don't understand why or how people get wrapped up in weird nationalistic frenzies. That whole territorial/tribal thing humans seem to enjoy makes me feel downright alien at times. What's wrong with other parts of the planet?

[punpirate]

26. Hmmm. Best country in the world?

We've just fought two wars in two years for business interests. We have a reactionary right wing determined to make this a one-party country. We have a declining standard of living for the middle class and by many evaluations (press freedom, freedom from corruption, human rights standards, health of the population), we rank well down from the top.

For a fact, Jews weren't the only people leaving Germany as quickly as they could in 1938. Germans were leaving, too, especially those who had strong roots in German social democracy in the `20s (Germany was democratic prior to Hitler's ascension to power).

What we all were taught about this country in grade school does not resemble its reality. A measured response to what we are, in fact, does not mean treason or a failure to recognize the country's strengths. It means we see the country's weaknesses, and, if possible, would like to correct them. Saying we are the best, and, therefore, good riddance to those who think otherwise, is little more than repeating propaganda.

Edit to add close parenthesis.

[bpilgrim]

32. we got MANY of germany's great minds then...

folks who know what is going on will naturally want to move away from the danger, it's genetic i think ;->

peace

[punpirate]

38. Yup... but I don't think it's just a genetic...

... imperative to survive. It's also an expression of social consciousness, which is mostly humanitarian and egalitarian--sort of saying, "if I survive, my experience is available to others. If not, I've simply perished due to the same nationalistic impulses which brought on the chaos in the first place."

Cheers.

[bpilgrim]

42. true

like the 'book people' of fahrenheit 451
http://www.destgulch.com/movies/f451

:hi:

peace

[punpirate]

55. Ah, we book people...

... something I understand (two degrees in literature). It's possibly why I've taken so completely to the internet in the last few years--so many words and ideas flying around, one can't simply dismiss them.

Cheers.

[CWebster]

really?."the best country in the world"

... so you've been told all your life....but why would that be?

The superior educational system? The heightened political and cultural consciousness? The social safety net? The cuisine? The corporate and military dominance? The health care system? The pop culture?

[Kamika]

34. ill tell you why

Because my parents came here to find a better life and FOUND it!

Its absolutely nothing ive been told all my life.

We have a good educational system, too bad the only thing that gets noticed is when theres something bad.

We have a great cultural consciousness, we have tons of authors, painters, etc,

We have the best cuisine in the world, a big mix of everything (my father started a korean restaurant for example)

And what is wrong with military dominance, handled with responsibility?


Not to mention like every nobel price lately almost has been american.


And the final reason, because i have visited ALOT of countries in both europe and asia, while many are great i found no country to be as good, friendly, mixed, as America.

By the way isnt leaving the country pretty darn pathetic? youre just giving up leaving us who stay with even less chance of getting a democratic president installed.


On the other hand maybe i should be happy, because we get rid of all the ppl that are to scared to put up a fight.

[thebigidea]

36. good lawd!

"We have the best cuisine in the world"

which seems to be the combined cuisine of the rest of the world, hmmm?

"By the way isnt leaving the country pretty darn pathetic? youre just giving up leaving us who stay with even less chance of getting a democratic president installed."

Would you call those that fled Nazi Germany pathetic? Would you call generation after generation of American artists/writers who spent years abroad pathetic? If so, why?

"On the other hand maybe i should be happy, because we get rid of all the ppl that are to scared to put up a fight."

You're calling symbolman too scared to put up a fight? Have you seen any of his work? You're saying he's not putting up a fight?

[Kamika]

37. no

All i see is some stupid "im leaving" post.


And comparing whats happening now to nazi germany is just some weak attempt at drama

[thebigidea]

41. what do you expect from a weak attempt at a dramatist?

I should've restricted my post to "Lost Generation" talk of 20s Americans, but I'm guessing you wouldn't know what I was talking about. hence the grasping at swastikas.

[greatauntoftriplets]

46. Read a book called "The White Rose"

and then talk about comparisons to Nazi Germany.

[CWebster]

45. A better life compared to what?

Working in some sweatshop in some US exploited country, with no labor practices or environmental controls- which destroys ancient culture and traditional lifestyles so we can boast that we provided jobs?

Or here in the US where we are losing jobs but still can afford to buy cheap trinkets manufactured by US exploited slaves?

Don't that just make you beam with pride?

People come here to do our dirty work, pick our food, scrub our flooors, but they are often migrating from countries suffering from US military intervention --as the case with so many Latinos.

Some of my people came to this country because they were invited to work in cathedrals due to their exceptional skill as artisans, but they were treated as dirt. Even though they had worked on the Sistene chapel and came from a country with a long and influential history in the West, they were treated as dirt because they were Southern Europeans. Still today, I encounter ignorant WASPS of the ruling class who have a snide remark for a name ending in a vowel.

[dutchdemocrat]

52. This great country you live in...

Was largely built by immigrants who left despots, fascists, Royalists, famine etc. from all over the world.

I reserve judgement to brand you a traitor to Korea based on your statement. It seems your family fled there to come to America. And you left for enonomic reasons... not for political reasons.

People who opt for what they perceive as a better life (like your parents did) should never be branded.

Your arguement has no basis. They are not traitors. You just have a warped sense of nationalism.

[punpirate]

53. Your life goes well, and, therefore, all else is well?

What's wrong with military dominance, handled with responsibility? Nothing--except that it isn't being handled responsibly.

We have a lousy educational system. It's inferior to that of almost every Western industrialized country in the broadest terms. It's that way because we refuse to spend an adequate amount of money on it. Look at virtually every local referendum to increase taxes for schools--they go down in flames.

The number of Nobel prizes in no way reflects the substance of the entire system. America has always been good at basic science, and there are smart people here, as elsewhere. Look carefully, and you will find that many of the prizes are shared with others elsewhere.

Yes, we have a cultural heritage--we have tons of writers and painters--most of whom gained their stature in the `20s and `30s. Brian Easton Ellis sells books, but is he an artist?

Cuisine? McDonald's? Burger King? Chain restaurants of every description? It's great your father started a Korean restaurant. I love Korean food (which I could get any time in Hawaii). But, I'm not typical--I'm one of those well-educated types that loves multi-culturalism which much of the rest of the country hates (my father asked me recently about suggestions for tires on his car, because he wouldn't buy Michelins, "because of those French").

Americans politicize everything, and they hate things for all the wrong reasons.

Your life is fine today. What happens when the yahoos, inflamed by right-wing rhetoric in the midst of contentious arguments about North Korea, begin throwing bricks through the front windows of your father's restaurant.

For different reasons, the same thing happened in LA in the early `90s.

Spend more time here. Don't blame people for spotting trends you cannot because you don't have the same history. The people here who are worried about the influence of Bush and the right-wing in this country are standing on the shoulders of their own history, and they see further, see changes you do not.

As for putting up a fight, did your father put up a fight in Korea? No, he came here. The people here who are thinking it's time to leave this country are no different than your father, and have no different perspective on the US than he did of Korea, if that's where your roots are.

The great fear in this country is that the people in charge now will remain in charge, and change this country forever from what it once was, and cut it off from what it can be. If you think America is great now, you should have seen it in 1974, when even our own Congress spoke truth to power and forced a corrupt President from office.

We worry now that such will never be possible again in this country, no matter how corrupt our leaders become.

Cheers.

[JanMichael]

65. This sounds like my hour long blow out last night.

The sicking oversimplification of what America is and what opportunity is here and how everyone can make "it", nevermind that "It" is money and little else....Argh...I guess a little bit of cash blinds people to reality.

[punpirate]

67. Quality of life...

... equations must also figure in the retention of one's sanity, yes?

Cheers.

[LunaC]

75. Keep the guilt trip to yourself, please.

By the way isnt leaving the country pretty darn pathetic? youre just giving up leaving us who stay with even less chance of getting a democratic president installed.

Whew.....where to start?

I'm one of those planning to leave in early 2005. Between now and then I'll fight like hell against Smirk because he stands for all I oppose but I'm not sure it will make much difference. I don't think you've fully grasped that the first stages of Fascism are already here. The PNAC/WH cabal have the money, the weapons, the ability to twist the law and BBV all to their advantage. There's only so much a populace can do to overcome those odds.

Do I WANT to leave? Not really. I'm unusually comfy and cozy in my life but the political prospects of the future trigger my Survival Mode. It takes a helluva' lot of courage to uproot from all that's familiar and venture out to foreign lands to be free to live according to one's principles!

And what in the hell makes you think that those that leave won't continue fighting the Good Fight? In case you have't noticed, it's the foreign press that more often than not that brings us the Truth. We that are leaving believe that we can be of better service elsewhere.

So please, PLEASE, keep the guilt bullshit off the table!

(edited for spelling)

[tlcandie]

214. Look at those Iraqis who sought asylum .. they left .. fought for

their country and now they are RULING it! Not that I support Chalabi :puke:

If you use this argument about traitors, etc., then I guess America is a nation based upon traitors! :toast:

I've been thinking about South America..Chavez...hmmmm However, New Zealand is a place that truly stirs my heart!

[RapidCreek]

83. Gosh....

I don't get it, Kamika...

You said:

"By the way isnt leaving the country pretty darn pathetic? youre just giving up leaving us who stay with even less chance of getting a democratic president installed."

Why'd your dad leave Korea, then?

RC

[hang a left]

106. Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize

hmmmmmmmmmmmm and such a peaceful man.

[Elidor]

143. Second-generation immigrants always make the best nationalists

Your willing assimilation sounds remarkably complete. There is nothing cowardly in Symbolman wanting the best for his family, and it's pretty shallow of you to suggest otherwise.

Don't look now, but your nationalism is showing. And it ain't pretty.

"By the way isnt leaving the country pretty darn pathetic?"

I dunno - why don't you ask your parents?

[Selwynn]

123. PROVE IT - put some facts in front of BS Rhetoric

Just exactly WHY is it the "best" country in the world?

[Kamika]

127. just look at arnold schwarzenegger

Hes the living proof why this country is the best country in the world.


And no im not saying hes a good politician im saying he came here with absolutely NOTHING but his body. And look at him now.

[thebigidea]

130. what the HELL?!?!

apparently, I am now officially in Bizarro-World.

This thread is completely nauseating.

[Kamika]

132. you apparently didnt get my point

Im saying he came here with NOTHING, now hes a multimillionair and the governor of california.

Tell me another country where something similar can happen.

I dont like the fact he IS the governor, but im damn proud im from the same country where it is possible.

[thebigidea]

135. this is the wrong site to be saying Arnold is an example of America's

... greatness...

"Tell me another country where something similar can happen"

are you saying its impossible for an immigrant to make money in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET?!

[Minstrel Boy]

142. This is a shockingly blinkered remark:

"Tell me another country where something similar can happen."

Since you're asking for just one, I'll say Canada. I could name you scores of Canadian entrepeneurs who began as virtually penniless immigrants.

And I'll also name Canada - though again, I could name many other countries - as a land where the millions who are not Arnold Schwarzenegger live under a social contract in which the state guarantees the necessities of life.

The "American Dream" - that only in America can one "succeed" - is a vile hallucination.

[dutchdemocrat]

153. Canada

Canada's Attorney General (official representative of the Queen) is Asian Canadian and married to novelist Saul Bellow.

That is just a start.

[Minstrel Boy]

157. I think you meant "Governor General," and she's

married to author John Ralston Saul, not Saul Bellow.

[dutchdemocrat]

220. Shit

You are right. I got confused. Thanks.

[Dirk39]

164. Another country? Germany! Hitler came here from the same

country as Arnie...and he became the leader of Germany within just a few years:-)
I don't want to offend you, but this example has really a funny moment.
Like one german author once replied, asked if he would be proud to be a german: "The few seconds a year, I remember that Hitler was an Austrian"
Hello from Germany!
Dirk

[Selwynn]

136. That's the most

fucked up thing I've ever heard. But its nice to know that you're definition of "best" is utterly materialistic.

[Selwynn]

137. This country is the best because....

a guy with nothing can come here, make a shit load of money yet remain totally ignorant amassing all kinds of shallow fame and media power and end up being the biggest arrogant jackass idiot "MORAN" that the public eagerly elects to political office!

That is in fact nearly the opposite of my definiiton of the "Best"

[tlcandie]

215. If you really look at that statement .. doesn't that just about sum it up?

What's wrong with America and how the hell did we get here.. hmmmm :think:

[Unforgiven]

207. Oh My God

Are you serious? Arnold has no more business being where he is than * does. The only reason he is,is because of the stupidity of the people who voted for him.

[truthseeker1]

24. We've been talking about Canada....

I keep saying if Georgie Boy wins in 2004, we're outta here.

[TrogL]

116. check the rules for Immigration

they've loosened them a bit, but it's still pretty stringent

[Fish Eye]

27. Our family is

working on leaving....so many details though!! South of the border for us! (way south nothing against Mexico bu tit is to close to the evil empire)

[info being]

169. Maybe this is the Bush economic plan

Drive any thinking Americans away to lower unemployment.

[Mikimouse]

30. Making contingency plans for Winnipeg

n/t

[shirlden]

31. I'm old, so I will probably stay,

But my son has his plans made for leaving. Many of our younger generations believe strongly in a "one world" concept. With the internet, cell phones, modern transportation, the move to another country is not much more than a move to the other side of town.
This country will lose many of their best and brightest, but that is what has always happened to civilizations on the decline. It speeds the process of decay within the sick nation and thus the time of regeneration comes that much quicker.


:(

[dofus]

33. What makes any of us think

there will still be time to leave on November 3, 2004?

Some kind of national emergency could be declared and the borders closed.

Reinstate the draft? Easy. No one gets high school diploma without showing up at the induction center. Oh, and no one hires any one 18 or older who doesn't have certificate verifying completed service or exemption from such. Colleges don't admit students without same.

Don't ever forget that a coup occurred on December 11, 2001, and those in power have no intention of losing it. There's little reason to think they'll be hamstringed by anything as silly as an honest election. And BBV isn't even that important in the long run for retaining power, although it can provide the illusion of a fair and honest election.

[el_gato]

66. right on

these elections are nothing but a fig leaf of legitimacy that doesn't really exist.

but as far as the draft etc there will be riots in the streets eventually and the pigs at the top are waiting for it

[Loonman]

39. Okay, quitter

When the going gets tough, the whimps leave the country.

[thebigidea]

40. when the going gets tough, the wimps manage to survive

[dutchdemocrat]

43. Like your ancestors who left Europe to come to America right?

Like your ancestors who left Europe to come to America right?

They were 'cowards' too, when they left to find a better life? When they wanted to leave the persecution they were facing, or the Fascist governments, despotic royalists, cruel landowners etc. who made their life hell.

Maybe the promised land is not America anymore for many?

You are a warrior - fine. But to call others 'cowards' who simply want to have a better life in another country is ridiculous.

You patriotism is warped Loonman.

[Loonman]

69. No, as a matter of fact my ancesters did not come from Europe

My ancesters were murdered, raped and robbed by those fine folks from Europe while lands were stolen for axes and whiskey and shoved on Reservations to die.

Damn right I'm an Indian
and I don't care what you be
Cause I'm a Capital I-N-D-I-A-N, American

liberal people might get mad
Cause they don't see
That they're looked upon
As a fool just like me
I'm an Indian not an indigent, that
Or a Redskin or an Injun
Or a Native-American, I'm all that

Yes, I was born in America, true
Does Orange County
Look like America to you?

I'm an Indian, a straight up Indian
From a hard school
Whatever you are
I don't care, that's you fool
I'm loud and proud
Well endowed with the hot beef
Out in the rock club
I hang out like a horse thief

So you can call me dumb, rude or crazy
Ignorant, drunk, inferior or lazy
Silly or foolish
But I'm taller and skinnier
And most of all
I'm a straight up Indian

I'm a Indian, here in America
and that much I flaunt
Cause when I see what I like
I take what I want

I'm not the only one

America was stolen from my people, that's true
what was that?
A straight up Indian move
A low down shame
it's straight insane
Yet they complain
When a Casino Indian snatch
Their house payment away
What is a Redman supposed to do?
Wait around for a handout
From a civil servant like you?
That why a low down Indian gets hyped
But I'm not an Indian of that type


Now I'll write this song
Though the radio won't play it
But I got freedom of speech
So I'll say it

I work real damn hard for my livin'
But I don't celebrate bullshit Thanksgiving
sit up like a fool and eat turkey
That's the day your forefathers jerked me
Shipped us to Florida and 'zona in locks and chains
Split us up twistin' up an Indian's brain
Now you keep me in constant sweat
But I'm an Indian that you'll never forget

[dutchdemocrat]

73. Well then I dare say.

You should be trying to kick all the evil ones who raped your lands out, not just Repugs.

You should be happy any nasty colonialists are leaving your fair land. You should be egging them to run, so you can claim back your rightful property... not head-butting them to stay.

Full blooded Cherokee no doubt.

[JewelDigger]

81. He who fights and runs away....

...lives to fight another day.

[Unforgiven]

208. And You..........

GET JAILED!! For not being a good little Nazi!

[Lexingtonian]

44. Well, OK

If you can't handle any more of the bizarro-world here, well, it's your mental health and you can probably tell when it's all too much. I just hate to tell you that you're not going to be able to get very far away from it; in some form or another the phenomena of the agricultural-industrial and industrial-postindustrial transitions are everywhere. And the elites screw the commoners over everywhere. Trust me, it's better to live in a large country than a small one- the oppressions don't feel as personally mean.

The Civil War comparison is more apt than you think. The unfolding power dynamic of that fight is remarkably similar, I've concluded after long examination of both. Each year of the Civil War is roughly parallel to a Presidential term, and the key politicians and generals of the Civil War remarkably parallel the key political figures of the present Culture War. And this is so because the two fights are the same kinds of people/groups transacting the same fundamentals. Gingrichism- the willingness to resort to any means necessary- is the parallel to the declaration of Secession and the beginning of bloodletting and sets mid-1861 as 1990/91. It's both's essential claim that if we all accept the political inequality of people- especially the non-white- as a fact, and property/power as the basis of peoples' value, then we can have a kind of brutish Utopia that is supposedly 'the American Dream' and 'freedom'.

That's the bad news. The good news is that we are the Union side now at the point equivalent to August 1864- some of our rear areas are still getting raided with impunity, there are theaters of the war we are neglecting, the generals are almost done correcting for previous mistakes, and the civilians and footsoldiers and press think things are going more badly than the facts bear out. Yet we are becoming quite proficient as a side everywhere, have lots of resupply of food and footsoldiers and ammunition, and our side is bearing in relentlessly on the Atlanta (the Presidential race majority) and the Petersburg (Congressional majority) and thereby the Richmond (USSC majority) of the present conflict. All we really need for morale, as the Union needed very badly in August 1864, is a success that is unambiguous to every pessimistic idiot and indicative of significance to all the poo-poohed successes of the political cycle. (It came for the Union with the fall of Atlanta on September 2, 1864- roughly December 2003 in our parallel, and involving winning development in the present Presidential race, if you need a prediction/interpretation.)

There is actually something eerie about how closely Al Gore matches to William Rosencrans, Tom Daschle to George Meade, Jefferson Davis to Bill Rehnquist, and George W Bush fits to John Hood as historical actors and as personalities and the sequence and outcome of events they meet and do battle in. Foibles and all. Of the Presidential contenders I'll admit that I think Bob Graham mirrors George Thomas, Joe Lieberman probably Joe Hooker, and John Edwards the John Schofield. Dick Gephardt seems to fit to George Stoneman (with some trouble), and Al Sharpton is the unambiguous pick for the H.J."Kill Cavalry" Kirkpatrick figure.... (I do have Clark, Dean, and Kerry sorted out as paralleling other generals of the Atlanta Campaign. These generals are James McPherson, William Sherman, and Lovell Rousseau, but I leave the figuring out of the best pairings up to you.)

The event sequence is more complicated to fit, but the parallels are even stronger: the Clinton removal Senate battle of March '99 fits to Gettysburg, Florida '00 would be the battle of Chickamauga, the corporate scandals of '01 Missionary Ridge, the "9/11 period" the Union side's leadership-lacking demoralized winter of '63/'64, the election of '02 the variety of Union stalemates and defeats of early May 1864 (e.g. the battle of the Wilderness the Senate election battlings), Spotsylvania the '03 tax cut fight, the final Iraq vote in Congress the long-resonant Cold Harbor debacle. The different parts of the Niger uranium fraud scandal fit to the Sherman/Hood battles- Hood losing badly- to cross the Chattahoochee River and the bloodlettings (of the Confederate/Republican side, really) just outside Atlanta of late July.

Anyway, if you can't convince yourself of that parallelism/analogy (and it's a matter of faith even if you're a serious Civil War buff), the polling trends do point to Bush hitting unelectable support numbers in December and January. You do want to stick around to until then, at least, before deciding whether the pain level is really unbearable and the improvements could yet arrive in time.

This too shall pass from under the sun. You may be choosing to leave just as the political warfare turns, as the other side's position changes from one of middling political efficacy in achieving their aims to one of clinging to survival. I don't want you to raise your hopes as much as ask whether you can defer acting on despair. The grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, but corrupt elites and foolish reactionaries are on the rampage all over the globe, exploiting the sense of chaos and helplessness of the common person in the face of uncontrollable technological and sociological change of our age. Everyone burns out in this fight- causalties on both sides are high, if you do a body count sometime- but that means everyone can and should walk away for a few weeks and months and return refreshed, with their personal life intact again and senses and judgment more acute and better invested.

[Democat]

50. Your post made my head hurt!

In a good way. I'll have to read it again later!

[Dogmudgeon]

51. Here, Here!

A round of drinks for Lexingtonian!

I'm not completely sold on the parallels, but but dynamics are valid and visible. Which is why I'm not upset about Gov. Arnie. My main fear is that Bush will try a brazen coup d'etat in a cooked-up national emergency, but overall, history is against the hard-ass Right wing.

We're learning the real meaning of Patriotism all over again. I believe it will resolve in "our" favor.

--bkl

[Dogmudgeon]

47. A little Solidarity, please!

I don't blame anyone for getting the itch to bail out. It's getting downright scary in the good ol' USA lately.

I plan to stick around and fight ... but I'm brushing up on French just in case I have beat a quick retreat. But I'd only go if I was tipped off that the Bushtapo was on its way to my house.

This is the kind of time we need to hunker down and dig in. The time to get the "alternative" and "underground" institutions in place is today.

This is MY country, too, and I won't let them take it by default.

But the best way to deal with people who want to leave pronto is by solidarity. Nobody likes to feel helpless, and we shouldn't have to be helpless.

It's time to grit our teeth and fight for liberty.

--bkl

[punpirate]

60. Who, exactly, do you plan to fight, and how?

Your neighbors, who believe every lie told them? They believe they are supporting liberty, too.

Propaganda is pernicious, and it's focused at precisely the people most susceptible to it. Those who are not are making plans, because, like the Germans who got out just in time, they recognized the hopelessness of the situation--even if that situation was temporary.

Germany today is democratic, mindful of its past, and wary of being drawn into foreign adventures. But, a lot of people who disagreed with Germany's leaders (or who were simply Jews, or common criminals, or political dissidents, or Catholics or communists or democrats) in the `30s and `40s did not survive to see Germany recover from its temporary insanity.

This country today is in the midst of a similar temporary insanity. Leaving until the insanity subsides is not cowardly--it's common sense.

It's not a matter of resisting a takeover. They have already taken it over by default. The question in sensible people's minds right now is can the right wing hang onto it. That's why so many people are waiting for the 2004 election results.

If the right wing wins, they have hung onto it. If they don't, this is simply another four-year anomaly in American politics.

Cheers.

[izzie]

48. I believe in staying and trying to make it better but I know lots that

are talking about leaving.

[LeftistGorilla]

49. Consider ....

Canada.... we have many oppressed people here...

[laruemtt]

54. a realtor actually

came to the door wanting to buy the house about a month ago. i took his card. evidently, this is "hot property" now since a superwalmart is being built about a half mile from the house. sigh..... it's like the termite people in emerald forest are at our doorstep. hubby is jamaican - may go there. but probably canada. see if we can stay with red-green for a while!

[areschild]

57. We've been trying to sell our house.

Can't afford to leave the Country, but we are planning to move to a more rural area. I feel like I'm in a fishbowl here. No place to hide.

[laruemtt]

107. come to wv!

there's a nice rebellious spirit here (they're really regretting going to bush in 2000 - i'm still working on forgiving them). and TONS of places to hide in the mountains. lots of old hippies here. but you will have to wade through a few of the stereotypicals.

[Woodstock]

176. Now that I might do

Now that Bush has made the whole world want to nuke us, the east and west coast population centers are danger zones.

Even the country isn't a free ride, though, there you are subject to big business devastating the land.

[laruemtt]

209. yeah, that's right, but it's

slower here because the mountains are everywhere, even with the mountaintop removal going on. if you fly over this state it's really amazing how wild it is. it's pretty arable too. and the bonus is people who come here to live are definitely NOT motivated by making $$$!!! and we've got the amish right across the river. most species of plants and trees of any state in the country. Prettiest spring and fall i've seen anywhere (have lived ny, fla, colorado - pretty but hard to grow things, venezuela and illinois and visited many other places. are ya sold yet? :hi:

[ShaneGR]

58. The lord hates a quiter

Let me see here, 13 months before the election you're just gonna quit?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[punpirate]

62. Fight what?

Bush? The neo-cons? They do what they please, and there's no public outcry, nor any real damage inflicted on them by the press.

How exactly are you going to fight them?

How about a program for the rest of us to evaluate and learn from?

How exactly do you plan to bring this bunch down, cut them down to size?

Truly, I'm all ears. I want to know. What is to be your fighting technique?

Cheers.

[Skittles]

72. OMG

you're just as bad as he is. Why don't we all just kill ourselves?

[punpirate]

79. Give me a truthful fucking answer about how you...

... plan to fight. If you don't, you're a poseur, a fraud.

[Skittles]

151. I will continue fighting

writing letters and supporting Democratic candidates and giving financially to DEMOCRATIC CAUSES. I won't f***ing sell out and f***ing LEAVE.

[thebigidea]

155. how is moving out of the US for a spell "selling out"?

and how is it somehow impossible to write letters and support Dems from overseas?

[gully]

93. 2004 for us. I have children to consider.

If shrub is elected were outta here. Perhaps we'll have a DU commune? ;)

I would stay and fight, but with what they've accomplished in 4 years, we'd be put in jail for doing so.

[catmandu57]

61. The thing is I'm stuck

I was thinking leaving might not be a bad thing, I'm not particularly tied to staying here, the family has a long history of being on the move. There are several things that prevent me from going anywhere, physical mobility being one of the chief reasons right now, but, theres the wife. She won't leave her family behind for any reason,and I love her too much too even think about leaving her behind.
The best I could do is find a liberal part of the country and lobby her day and night to get out of here.
I just hope that if it does get as bad as it looks, I can put up some sort of a fight before I'm hauled out of here.

[E Pluribus Unum]

63. What Country?

[dutchdemocrat]

76. Israel I would guess

Armed friends, small country and he's Jewish.

[thebigidea]

78. armed "friends"?

Though the thought of takebackthemedia.com opening a Tel Aviv branch is amusing, it probably remains in the realm of fantasy.

[Stupdworld]

68. dont forget to leave a forwarding address

for all the corporate junk mail

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

71. oh no! whatever will we do!

A FR thread popped up and got pulled! Oh no!

Who the heck cares what FR thinks?

[John_H]

74. Stay and fight.

Please don't be a puss.

[punpirate]

80. How do you propose to fight? n/t

[spooky3]

111. whenever I can afford it, I am sending $ to my favorite Dems' campaigns

[punpirate]

140. Okay, but John_H says "stay and fight"

and I really wanted to know how he proposed to do that.

I'm not going to question your intentions in donating money to your favorite Dems (well, that would be _really_ goddamned stupid on this board, wouldn't it? *smile*). But, money doesn't solve all problems--especially when the Bushies can get a lot more money than the Democrats.

Symbolman is talking about abandoning this country, and some here are calling him a fraidy-cat for not sticking it out, no matter the hurt, without offering him a damned bit of substantive advice on how to weather the storm, and that concerns me.

Have you any good advice for him?

Cheers.

[Demsupporter]

77. Great idea! Paranoid people cannot help elect Democrats

Cut and run at any sign of trouble rather than stay and fight? What kind of supporter of the party are you? If everyone thought like that we wouldn't have a party.

Everyone familiar with human nature knows that when we want something to happen, we tend to interpret external events as making the desired outcome seem likely. By contrast, a cynic assumes that what he wants will not happen. A realist interprets events without rosy spectacles, and a good bridge player must be a realist to predict that dark clouds on the horizon portend stormy weather. Then he must try to ward off the rain if he can. Bobby Wolff

The same is true of politics. Those who are realistic have a better chance of overcoming obstacles and "seeing" the correct path to victory.

[Lars39]

85. You have no idea who you are addressing do you?

The people that are high profile risk-takers are the ones that are at the greatest risk. Symbolman's talents are invaluable and portable. If it takes him being in another country to help this one, so be it. It is a very personal decision that should not be derided.

[Tinoire]

224. What luscious irony

Your contributions so far here are all a dozen posts and you attack someone who has done more and put more on the line than you can imagine.


Oh the zeal of the neophytes kicking the weary old Sergeant whose seen and won more battles than they can ever imagine!


Sometimes it's best NOT to say anything when you don't know what you're talking about.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

82. wow you painted a very vivid picture...Sweden, Denmark,Switzerland, Aussie

many of my more affluent friends have already done so...it seems like a sage decision...godspeed

[loudsue]

84. Can I go with you?????

:bounce:Take me with you, Symbolman! I can fit into a suitcase!!:bounce:

I understand your feelings. It's gone beyond crazy in the good ole US of A. The nazis have taken over our former democracy, and even the "proud middle-of-the-road" (ugh!:puke:) DUers don't get it. They still live under the illusion that elections in this country are comprised of people voting, and that those votes COUNT!! ROFLMAO!!

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

:shrug: Don't ask me what planet THEY'RE from!!:shrug:

Democracy is dead on our soil. Time to look for another piece of ground.

:kick:

[punpirate]

86. About a quarter of the responses to this thread...

... have said, "stay and fight."

Not one of you has offered one succinct and substantive means of fighting the current administration.

Not one.

Not a single one.

When challenged, you simply reiterate your beliefs about the "fight."

If you believe so strongly in what you are saying about "fighting," why is it that you have absolutely no idea about how to do that, and yet you castigate someone who prefers to retreat and fight another day?

By telling someone else to stand and fight, that means, implicitly, that you have the means and the will to do so, but you will not share the details.

That means you don't have a clue. Not a fucking clue.

Just words. Attack one of your own, because you aren't able to figure out how to attack the real opposition. Or, perhaps, it's too much trouble to write it all out when you aren't sure of the potential success of your own ideas.

Give me a goddamned break. Put up, or shut up. Provide ideas, or just keep your peace.

If you can't provide solid, substantive ideas about how to overcome the current administration, don't expect others to rally `round your empty "fight `em to the death" bullshit.

Who amongst you are going to be at the front of the charge?

[Terwilliger]

87. Amongst us???? WHAT THE FUCK DID I ELECT DEMOCRATS FOR?!?!?!?

Why do we have to fight? Didn't we elect representatives to speak for us? Isn't this a representative democracy??

[punpirate]

90. And?

[Terwilliger]

121. What?

[punpirate]

141. And you think helping a bit with a representative...

... democracy is sufficient? No matter if that system is totally, completely screwed-up? You've done your job--you've voted for someone and fulfilled that promise of a representative democracy?

C'mon.... What if, just, simply, what if that person you voted for was a complete and thorough asshole. Wanna change that? You'd better want to....

But, in the final analysis, "what?" is not furthering a solution to the problem. Not at all. Play such games with your younger siblings. Terwilliger, you're better and smarter than this. Start being a help, rather than being a hindrance.

Cheers.

[Terwilliger]

150. maybe you could explain why `and' was helping

I elect a representative to do my fighting. Now, if you dont like the fact that Democrats are weak and ineffectual, don't look at me as "hindering" anything

[Terwilliger]

218. well?

an answer?

[hang a left]

112. I think that is the problem here. We don't have a representative democracy

anymore. And I would love to find out what the plan is, if we are gonna revolt. How, when and where, because I am at a loss here also.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

94. There is strength in numbers

you need any more elaboration? If you've forgotten that one little fact then go listen to Alice's restaurant. It's not just a song.

[punpirate]

99. Love the song...

... but the Bushies never listened to it. That was 1968, and today is today. Even Arlo would agree with that.

And, on edit, strength in numbers is not a plan, but a platitude. How, specifically, do you fight this administration? What specific means does one use to overcome them?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kamika]

134. The fight is easy

Vote Dem. Thats the least you can do in the fight.

[seventhson]

183. I will. I am. But anyone who feels this country is fascist and hopeless

should know that trying to fight for it here means possibly certain death or guantanamo like life terms.

So fighting it from the outside politically and peacefully might be a valid option.

I would die for my children's freedom without batting an eye.

But "the fight" is a battle for the minds of our citizens so that Democracy does not die.

"Revolution" in the U.S. is, as they used to say in the movement, nothing but change. But it requires those willing to put their lives on the line for American Freedom (as all our soldiers in Iraq have done and our police and firemen and patriots throughout the ages). To change America we must be willing to commit to Satyagraha: nonviolence and resistence to Fascism and Treason and the Betrayal of our Constitution by the Corporate Fascists and their vanguard: the BFEE.

If we shudder and fear and run then we may not be able to win.

If we stand our ground willing to fight with our words and intellect we may be able peacefully bring about a revolution.

how many of you have gone into the ghettoes to register voters?

Hown many have worked for free in a soup kitchen or homeless shelter and organized the "powerless". How mny are willing to sell their houses top get safely away without even really trying to fight this battle in the trenches - the inner cities, the unemployment lines, the union halls, the meetups, the vigils for peace.

Symbolman may very well be right: there is so much reminiscent of Nazi Germany that the smart and wealthy folks who see the handwriting might be better off running.

Buit IF they had stood their ground and fought fearlessly at the outset (the Social Democrats rolled over for Hitler, for example, in 1934 -- if they had fearlessly organized and denied Hitler a quorum they MIGHT have kept the juggernaut from rolling. Instead they acquiesced or fled, leaving their friends , colleagues and fellow citizens to die or fight without their help.

Hell -- I often consider leaving and if I were rich enough I would.

But there will always be survivors guilt. I know. I work in the Holocaust Scholars and educational community.

Going into hiding may well be smart. Even hiding outside the country may be smarter. But to abandon the struggle for our freedom and "hiding out" hoping that it will go away on its own. THAT is suicidal.

[duhneece]

222. Here is a list of what I have been doing...but I'm also looking at Belize

With a small group we protested in February and March and will protest on Oct 25.
I've written to congressmen.
I've written and had published several letters to the editor, here in my small town newspaper and the larger city paper.
Since my small town newspaper refuses to publish Bush's admission that there is no 9/11-Iraq connection (& so far refuses to publish our letters complaining about it), I contacted the High School journalism teacher and suggested a debate/forum on what the obligations are of a local newspaper. I will continue pushing for some coverage. Maybe protest the newspaper office (having notified the TV stations).
I am trying to get together a group of women whose lives have been affected by war so we can give a forum to our community.
I print articles from DU, Veterans for Peace, Tom Paine, BartCop, etc and leave them at the Dept of Motor Vehicles, Drs offices, post office, wherever I go.
I wear a Peace/No war/$for Education & Healthcare-not bombs & bullets T-shirt everywhere I go. Starts some good conversations.
But I am looking at Belize, because I like to consider all my options.

[Plaid Adder]

88. Unfortunately, Symbolman, you can't run far enough

The U.S.'s power is global and there is nowhere you can go where this crowd can't find a way to make you miserable. At least in the U.S. we can still vote, for all the good it does. The rest of the world just has to sit there and take it.

I have lots of good reasons to go to Canada. I won't say I haven't been thinking about it. But the reality is I think it would be very hard for me to walk away from this. I was born here and raised here and I have been benefiting from America's dominance all my life. That makes this my fight. I win, or I go down, but I can't walk away.

Good luck, whatever you decide,

The Plaid Adder

[ElsewheresDaughter]

89. America's Exodus

[NewYorkerfromMass]

91. They have won then.

Sad. Very little support on this thread here for common sense, Lexingtonian, Loonman, and Kamika offered some good posts. They should be read by all.

Some people say it's like our ancestors leaving Europe and coming to America 400 years ago. I say Bullshit. That's when there was a "new World". Well, there is no more "New World"- we're here! If the great experiment in democracy here dies then it will die everywhere. I do not subscribe to divide and conquer nor will I let that division lessen me.
As someone said here earlier this week, we can't possibly leave this country and all its nuclear weapons in the hands of such evil.
Live by example. Stand and fight.
symbolman may have very good personal reasons for leaving, but it should not be an invitation for all to follow. No, this is our country, and we need not cede it to others.

[thebigidea]

92. ludicrous hyperbole

"If the great experiment in democracy here dies then it will die everywhere."

that makes absolutely no sense. Back that one up, por favor. Sure, I suppose if the US finally tumbles into a super-fascist monster-state, it could have the potential to enslave the world. But with the Dubya crew at the helm, I don't think that's likely.

"I do not subscribe to divide and conquer nor will I let that division lessen me."

Yet you divide yourself into US and THEM - US vs the REST OF THE WORLD. GREAT EXPERIMENT vs EVERYBODY ELSE.

Pretty divisive.

"As someone said here earlier this week, we can't possibly leave this country and all its nuclear weapons in the hands of such evil.
Live by example. Stand and fight."

Empty rhetoric. What could he do here that wouldn't be possible somewhere else? Artists can strike from any where - Newark to Nanking, a moldy basement to an orbital station.

Two words: absentee ballot.

Its so depressing to see someone who's been "fighting" as hard as symbolman has being called a coward over a late night bout of despair. I thought DU was better than this.

[Tinoire]

147. It used to be....... n/t

[punpirate]

95. Stand and fight....

Okay, give me one specific, detailed example of how to do that. Otherwise, it's an empty slogan.

[Terwilliger]

96. BUH-bye

:hi:

[Cocoa]

98. keep us posted on how selling the house is going

How long do you expect it will take to sell it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. I go back and forth on this

If a Dem gets into the White House in 2004, I'll stay and try to keep him honest.

If the Bushboy manages to hang on by hook or by crook, then I'll start thinking about moving to Japan. There are a number of factors, including the fact that my mother is 82 years old, and that I just moved halfway across the country a couple of months ago.

But I already get 90% of my income from Japan, I know lots of people there, and I know that I can live there, because I've done so before.

Having actually lived there, I know that it's not perfect. Corporate influence is strong, the voters are as apathetic as they are here, and the government is ridden with financial corruption. But one thing that is different is that even these corrupt officials are simply greedy, not mean-spirited, and they retain the notion of improving their country's quality of life.

I don't need a trophy house on a 1-acre lot, an SUV, or any of that other stuff usually included in "the American way of life." I like the notion of living in a country that has superb mass transit, an educational system that for all its faults produces the world's highest literacy rate despite the modern world's most complex writing system, a lively mix of well-supported Japanese-style and Western-style cultural institutions, and a diverse expatriate community full of quirky people with fascinating backgrounds.

I'm not committed to leaving, but at my age, it's ca. 2005 or never, so we shall see what happens after November 2004.

At any rate, if I did leave, I'd just be continuing a family tradition. My mother's father deserted two armies before coming here, my mother's maternal grandparents came here for adventure because they'd read James Fennimore Coopers' novels, and my father's parents came here because they were poor peasants.

[MercutioATC]

108. I find it scary that there are so many negative responses to this.

I thought WE were the intelligent ones who could avoid the knee-jerk nationalistic responses. Guess not...

This country DOES have problems...problems that deeply offend the sensibilities of some people. Sticking our heads in the sand and making sarcastic responses won't solve that. I'm sticking around because I have a government job that's secure and pays relatively well. Were that not the case, there are plenty of places that I think I'd find more interesting.

Symbolman sees what we all purport to see, he's just chosen a different solution. To attack him for that is beneath us.

[info being]

167. I'm not surprised

I get the impression that about half the people here are knee-jerk nationalists who are led by an emotional response to propaganda vs. an intellectual response to critical thinking.

Nothing wrong with it...just seems kind of obvious with threads like this.

[Tinoire]

225. Notice

the post counts. Enough said.

[mvd]

109. If Bush actually wins in 2004, unlike in 2000..

Nova Scotia is looking good. Does have a mild climate considering it's in Canada.

The thing is, they'd like the Democrats to leave. So, I'd give my decision serious thought.

[Snellius]

110. A serious policy of internal migration may be necessary

I've considered this too. Still, a sense of loyalty and patriotism prevents moving to another country when there are so many friends and family left here. But it does seem time to start thinking about defining states or regions that are Republican-free zones. A kind of internal emigration, a secession with a local government to protect us.

[KoKo]

113. Symbolman, I've thought the same thing, if we could find where we think we

could settle, we would do it. But, maybe you should hang in a little longer. Give it a few more months, and see if Bush's luck holds. I don't think it will. But, unfortunately the whole country is going to be at each others throats soon, and I don't know that I want to stay here for that. Taking the Repugs/Fundie/PNAC Megalopoly down isn't going to be easy and not without great pain for the country.

If you're tired, and you've certainly done enough to be tired of the fight, then maybe it's what you have to do.

But, I hope this is just a rant...and you will give it a little while longer before making a big move. Peace :-)'s

[Woodstock]

177. I was thinking of that, too

I thought Massachussets/Boston might be a dem stronghold? Maryland used to be safe, but they getting the sickness that is in the south more and more. Any other ideas?

A group of Libertarians (about 5,000) just up and moved to New Hampshire.

[KoKo]

182. I heard about those damned Libertarians packing up to head for NH!

Unbelievable. I've vacationed in NH. I won't go again! But, since Symbolman lives in California, the bastion of Liberal thought for many years (excepting Reagan) then I understand there needs to be someplace else. I've lived in "liberal" Conn, NY, NYC, and NJ.

I'm here in NC which on the "Conservative Internet site" where they rate who your Reps are and where you fall on the Lib/Conserv statistical plane......then NC is RIGH SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE.

I would leave NC in a heartbeat.....If I really new where to go....where I could get a job...health insurance...and not be taxed to death for my home! And, this is from someone who believe in reasonable taxes: FOR, Trash Pick Up, and Schools and funding for the ARTS! I would ride a bus or walk to "Little Theater, Concerts, Music and Crafts Festivals.

But, sadly, I'm very much a minority in America, today. :-(l

[Woodstock]

203. Kind of funny, isn't it? The Civil War all over again

The blue states are almost the same as the "free" states. And like then, Maryland was on the edge of the north/south, with loyalists to both - which is why I thought of moving north of here. Also, New Mexico & Arizona are getting bluer (AZ wants someone besides Bush by 10 points) - remember, there was no slavery in the new territory. Colorado Springs be damned, Boulder & Denver are free territory. The Northwest is free, too. And the Arnie thing was an aberration, we've still got California.

But we need a new term for the Union - I hate the New York Yankees so bad, I'll never call myself a Yankee. :)

[punpirate]

114. Man o' man....

This one's got me all confused. Symbolman's said, basically, that he's had it. And for those of you not up on his situation, his wife is getting sued by the likes of Michael fucking Weiner, er, Savage, in a state a long way from his residence. It's pretty much a case of using the legal system as a means of harassment. Not because Symbolman told an untruth, but, rather, because he used the net to tell the literal truth about an incredible right-wing asshole.

That's got to be discouraging to just about anyone. Add to that an unpleasant reality, that the state he lives in is now governed by a has-been actor with even less brains and education than Ronald Reagan, and there's no wonder about his despair for this country's future.

Some of you attacked him for thinking the best course of action was to escape the insanity, and continue his efforts offshore. Every person doing that offered no specific, concrete advice about how to keep body and soul and mind together and still do the work required.

No one had any specific advice, whatsoever. And, in my constant complaints here, I meant to address that one problem. The left here, as in Yeats' poem, _The Second Coming_, can't understand that they are the ones who are full of "passionate intensity," and have no idea about what to do next.

Sorry, folks. Politics is about ideas and action. If you have no ideas, you have no clue about what to do next, and if you don't have a clue, you ought not rave about the actions of others.

This venue is about politics. It sometimes devolves into rants, and that's to be expected.

Here's a guy saying, it's down the tubes, and you're attacking him for feeling that way, without ever having undergone what he's going through. You launch platitudes at him as if they were the moral equivalent of cruise missiles and expect him to relent.

Did a single one of you attacking him provide him one good piece of advice about how to _fix_ his problem, or give him a toehold on the situation? No.

Instead, you reviled him for "quitting."

Well, people, here's something to consider: maybe he's smarter than the rest of you. Maybe _he's_ figured it out, and you haven't.

Maybe you're all digesting the propaganda and working up to some sort of politically adolescent extended burp.

Maybe Symbolman's right.

Cheers.

[Lars39]

117. You missed one of his sentences.

"tho I will still be creating animations and whatever else to fight these bastards as much as I can"

He's portable. Dosesn't sound like he's totally throwing in the towel.

Let me ask: do you have a website that promotes dissent and the truth? Have you gotten nation/worldwide attention for what you have done in the "fight"? Don't you think that some of the more active folks in this arena might be targeted first?

I'd rather see them continue their activities from afar than to not hear/see their efforts on our behalf.

[punpirate]

118. Not saying he's throwing in the towel...

... in fact, I specifically mentioned otherwise (that he could continue his work offshore, as he mentioned).

Do I have a website that promotes dissent? You aren't listening or reading, my friend. Look at the entire thread. I am supporting Symbolman, not attacking him. If you are having trouble with the English language, I am available for tutoring.

Cheers.

[Lars39]

124. ~~~~

I wasn't trying to be ugly to you, there's no need to be snide. I was pointing out something I thought you had missed. I must have a reputation for being an airhead, 'cause you are the 2nd poster to state something snide. Some people do mean well, you know. Sucks getting hit up side the head with gentle slurs on intelligence. :(

[Elidor]

152. I would like to add

That Symbolman has "fought" much harder than most of the hypocrits slamming him.

I hadn't planned on leaving myself, but my girlfriend wants to go to Costa Rica to teach english as a second language as soon as she finishes her masters degree next year. I'd prefer Amsterdam, but what the hell, I might go with her, more out of love than a desire to flee.

[Walt Starr]

119. If the Democrats lose in 2004

Then it's over on a global basis. There will be nowhere to run to and nowhere to hide. The war will be global and there will be no winning except as a partisan guerilla for a short time in another country.

Despotism wins if the Republicans win again in 2004. This is it. It all comes down to a single election in a single country. We will forever be ruled by despotic corporatism if the Repugnant party wins or there will be some hope for a respite if the Democrats win.

There's the final battle between all that is good and all that is evil. If the Democrats win, good prevails, if the Repugnant party wins, Sauron gets the One Ring and the entire planet is cast into Shadow.

Think about that. You cannot be an elf and run to the Valar. Once the Repugnants win here, they have won everywhere.

We are all that stands between the shining light and the shadow of darkness.

[Tinoire]

148. Walt, Do you really think any old Democrat will do

The way I see it, we are in such a mess that only a drastic change of course can fix it.

As Democrats, we like to blame Bush for this entire fiasco but his administration was not the only one responsible. We've been inching towards this for years under administrations both Democratic and Republican... Bush just brought us to the cliff.

ABB is the biggest joke out there- calculated to lull a bunch of people into believing that the problem is just Bush. Do you believe the problem is as simple as Dem vs Rep? I don't anymore.

[Walt Starr]

165. Almost any old Democrat will do for the short term

Job # 1 is stopping the creeping despotism from furthering its agenda. Any old Democrat could give us a respite.

Of course, a Democrat with an identical agenda gives us the same despotism.

[Tinoire]

172. A respite yes... but we're already in the quicksand!

This is literally the last place I want to see us take just a brief respite lol!

I am frankly worried.

Of course, living in CA doesn't help at all due to our recent experience.

[Walt Starr]

185. CA is proof that we could be doomed

and the "we" in my statement is representative of homo sapiens.

I believe the Republican Party is all the proof we need to demonstrate that homo sapiens has yet to evolve into an intelligent species.

[Elidor]

156. Nonsense

Overly simplistic. Melodramatic. Shallow. Puerile. Bullshit, even.

[Selwynn]

122. I want to live somewhere else, but I'm afraid...

How would have I have a job, I'm single so I'd be leaving everyone and everything and going alone to some place that's totally foriegn, I don't know where I would work or what I would do...

It doesn't seem like leaving the country is very viable for me now :(

I wish it was .. canada or new zealand for me

[Tinoire]

149. I sympathize... same quandary here

but determined to find a way. Good luck...

[The White Rose]

125. Symbolman, good luck to you, and keep safe.

Punpirate is right IMO. Few, if any, here have done as much as you to actually fight this regime, and I salute and thank you for it. Also, don't mind the naysayers on this thread too much; as you know it's easy to become frustrated and bitter from witnessing the wholesale demolition of one's own country. Do what you think is right.

Best wishes

Rich

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. Let me second that, symbolman

You ARE a fighter,one of the most creative and prominent that we have, and you have earned the right to live wherever you damned please.

[noiretextatique]

126. it's your choice, symbolman

and i wish you the best in your move. i may be leaving too, after 2004.

[Room101]

133. Wait untill after the 2004 election

If the Bush crime family wins then I wish I could move out the country. Stay we need your help!

Brave new World (revisited) is more on the money

[ElementaryPenguin]

139. I wish the best, Symbolman! I hope you stay connected to DU! We need you

I understand your reasons COMPLETELY! If the BFEE/PNAC Mob does somehow manage to prevail in 2004 (which I don't believe they have a chance of doing) or steals another election (which I am far more worried will be the case), I will also get the fuck out of here! I've got an angel of a 10 year-old daughter that I am NOT raising in a fascist, totalitarian, warmongering society like Nazi Germany - and I have no doubt whatsoever that a second BFEE term would be precisely that - FEMA camps used for dissenting liberals, a dissenting city nuked - the whole nine yards! So I'm gambling for at least another year, and therefore - using your Germany in the 30's analogy - I will not be one of the "smart jews getting out while the getting is good," but rather a dumb, gambling one! Best of luck, my friend, and thanks for all of your worthy contributions!! I love your flash photography!

To relate to your other problems, Symbolman, I just want to add that it is certainly true that this is already a far different place than the one we all grew up in. There is no question, for example, that many of our computers here on the DU are being monitored - our privacy violated. I for one, have taken the precaution of having ALL of my correspondences and writings here forwarded and stored by two very prominent, powerful attorneys - both who happen to have tremendous local and national media ties, one who frequently utilizes this to expose government fraud, the other who often tackles high profile corporate corruption. So fuck them if they fuck with me - everyone is going to know ALL about it!

Anyway, as we patriots make our last stand here - I still believe in my heart that we will ultimately prevail, reinstate the Constitution, and restore America. Two things I am really encouraged about are, (1) that the C.I.A. is at war with ChimpCo - and (2) Al Gore seems close to getting a cable news network (a third one is the fact that my Repuke in-laws from Ohio despise the War Chimp, think he lied about Iraq and is killing the economy, and they are determined to vote for ANYONE the Democrats nominate in order to oust the corrupt/fool Bush!!) Again, best of luck - and keep in touch!

[Zorra]

154. I left the US in disgust right after

the 2000 selection. I could no longer justify supporting the US government and economy, and saw the crackdown on civil liberties coming as soon as bush was nominated. I now live very simply and inexpensively on savings, and probably spend half as much money for all my necessities, including housing, than the average American pays in monthly rent. I try to use as few products made by corporations as possible, which is almost none, and support small local farmers and businesses. I only drive my car once every 2 weeks, use solar power, minimize water usage (200 gallons/month), and in general have tried to make my life an environmentally friendly economic boycott.

Everyone can voice effective protest and help the environment every day through living simply and boycotting corporations. Patronize local farmers, co-ops, and small businesses and craftspersons whenever possible. Not watching television and not subscribing to corporate printed media are other ways to protest. Every little thing helps.

I still vote, and try to be politically active as possible through the net. I really miss the ability to actively participate in protests, but do not plan to return to the US until there is a Democrat in the WH.

[leftyandproud]

158. Why don't RIGHT WINGERS ever talk about leaving the country??

My theory is...America is practically the ONLY right of center nation left on the planet. Everyone else gets it. The world is full of greens, laborites, and socialists...progressive thinking people. We have plenty of alternatives to the USA. There are many places where we feel welcome...They right wingers have NOWHERE ELSE!!! They have nowhere to go that will welcome their beliefs...For this reason, they will fight TO THE DEATH to keep their power...They will do anything to defeat us. And this is why we can never beat them. If we lose, we have options...They don't. This is why they literally CAN'T LOSE!

[LuminousX]

160. Don't let the door hit you...

They will have to pry this country from my cold dead hands. Liberty is worth fighting for.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenina]

173. Don't let the the door close and lock in your face

in a cold, dank, musty cell without your tools. "There are many ways to skin a cat."

[KoKo]

198. Getting a little tired of the "Door/Fanny" snipe. It's a snipe, no matter

how some of you try to "soften it" with some damned platitude. If you want to behave like a Repug, that's the perfect sentiment to say to anyone here on DU.

But, if you look on DU as an a "Family" as many of us do, then that kind of snipey, snide, draw off the hip remark sounds like what's wrong with America Today. So many of you are just Limbaugh/Cable Network/Hip Reality Show Clones, that you don't get how cruel and dismissive a comment like that can sound.

Don't let the door hit your behind when you dicide you need some support here, or you are trying to say goodbye to friends. Cheap Shot! :-(

[Karenina]

202. Was your remark intended for me?

eom

[Tinoire]

223. Nope...

Looks like it was intended for that New Dem above you who made that nasty comment.

Such clods ;)

[info being]

162. I'll decide after 2004 election

I have plans to leave as well...just not quite ready.

By the way...good luck to you. I'm sure you'll find much more happiness outside these borders. I always do. Hopefully you can figure out ways to earn a good living at the same time.

[messiah]

166. I'm waiting till {to move out}

after the 2004 election even though I see staying here as hopeless.

[RBHam]

168. It's like Vietnam all over again

Except this time, if or when the draft is reintroduced, it may be a WHOLE lot tougher to cross the border. What with Homeland Security and all.

Up here in Canada, we welcome all political refugees. Come on over, it's not yet a thought crime to be a left winger.

[symbolman]

174. I'm heartened to hear all the strength

and fight left in the good people here. And I'm happy to know that others have left this country and arew willing to return when there are sane people in charge. I think that one poster said it all by living your whole life as a boycott, more simply and more happily I think, less stress.

Like I said, I'm not quitting the fight, and like a few here said there are plenty of people that went to Europe during the days of the Lost Generation (which oddly enough turned out to be the most Profound and critical thinking generation in my opinion) and I think that like Mark Twain said (paraphrased), "History doesn't neccessarily Repeat, but it does Rhyme."

I really believe there is or will be an exodus of Patriots (still hooked up to the cyber world) - and I think of myself as a Patriot - I enlisted in the USAF during Vietnam and did my (4 years - as a Sargent) time, I've been a Unionizer to the point where since I was holding meetings at my home I was fired (the Union got in, but I was not there to celebrate) - I've worked in a Veteran's hospital where I cared for over 300 insane Veterans, who lost their minds due to fear.

I've been creating animations, gone on TV, Radio, created Street Theatre to drum up interest while calling out the local media http://www.takebackthemedia.com/noprotest.html and am editing and creating with a production group my ARMY OF ONE ad for release in perhaps both New Hampshire and Tampa - and ALL WITH either NO money or my mortgage and generous donations by visitors to Take Back the Media.

Haven't sold out. Put my home on the line, Literally, if the Lawsuit against us was to prevail then the Michael Savage legal people (actually the Talk Radio Network, same group) would OWN MY HOME. I'd be broke.. that's still in court by the way..

I've fought hard, and gave my all, and I still have some more - but if anyone here thinks that I'm some kind of quitter after what I've done, they I would invite them to take a good look at themselves and get back to me..

I REALLY appreciate all those that have stood up for me in this thread, more than you know, it helps. A lot.

Just had people look at the house, I'm serious - if nothing else I will be at the outer reaches of the Empire, but only a short sailboat ride from Tahiti - learning French. I'm also a trained Sculptor and painter - an actual artist.. so I reasonably could just walk away from this country completely.. but I won't.

BUT I sure as hell ain't gonna let these animals OWN me, and that's what they want. They want YOUR MIND and YOUR SPIRIT for pennies on the dollar and if you are simply standing there in the wrong place and at the wrong time YOU WILL be used by them. They stab each other in the back all the time, everyone else is totally expendable.

I've had POWs tell me in Vet groups that YOU WILL be broken if they want to break you - and they don't need whips and car battery terminals attached to you to do it. They will make people WANT them to screw them over, and that's the sickest part of what's going on in this country. Check out the rat cage on the head scene in 1984 and tell me someone at gitmo hasn't thought that might be a good idea.

They are turning us into non feeling commercial vending machines and corporate veal. Not ME.

Maybe I can go first and set up an "underground railroad" like they did for the slaves.. Like Twain said, "history Rhymes."

I'm still fighting and I still consider myself a Democrat - but I wish the party would wake the hell up and start screaming and fighting dirty, the other side uses our CIVILIZED manner against us, and they seem to win every time.

IF the tide turns I'll be happy, but I'm not going to let them put ME or anyone I love in harm's way. Or force me to take uncivilized actions and soil my own soul.

Thanks for the support, and no thanks to those that think I'm a quitter :)

[Myra]

179. I'm with ya symbolman - Who's up for Canada?!

I don't equate leaving 100% with giving up.
Obviously it'd be a vote of no confidence when I leave.
But I'll keep fighting from...wherever.

And I agree that the European jews who waited
too long to read the writing on the wall died
as a result.

I hope like minded people here are aware that Canada eased
their entry requirements for the skilled worker
visa *significantly* a couple of weeks ago.

They used to require 75 points; they now require 67.

[seventhson]

189. It's a hell of swim to Tahiti. Too far for an underground railroad swim

My father worked with the underground in WWII and did exactly what you describe. They smuggled Jews and political opponents of Hitler out of Nazi-occupied Europe.

If you could get safely to a neutral country and could get to another country legally - then you were safe. And many of these folks were journalists and activists and writers who used their art to educate people here and around the world to help defeat Hitler.

But if you are in Tahiti you may not be able to help much.

The underground and the Maqui (resistance) either hid in open as "good citizens" risking death every moment, or they headed for the hills and operated as a guerilla army or out of the country and did cross border operations going in and out. I would refer you to the story of Jean Moulin (aka Martel)who was tortured to death by the Nazis (Klaus Barbie in particular) and who may have been sold out by our own OSS colluding with Hitler.

Leaving the country to operate more effectively is a reasonable and honorable and viable option.

But if there is no overt and covert resistance to fascism and treason here then America is lost and leaving will protect only you and yours.

I WISH I could protect MY children and go somewhere safe. But there really are few options. These motherfuckers will destroy people and their opponents ANYWHERE just as they have shredded out Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Satyagraha!!! Here!!!

BUT, Symbolman, your talent and artistry in terms of your ability to communicate the antifascist message is worthy of protection for all of us. So as long as you have a solar generator (try those new bicycle generators for laptops and wireless and pedal your own power) and keep pumping out the underground newspapers and messages to bring about a revolution of the mind - then all I can say is

Go in Peace

and good luck


(where can I read about the lawsuit, by the way?)

[Woodstock]

175. "going elsewhere til it gets better" - how will it do that if we all leave

?

[seventhson]

180. Symbolman - What Country can you GO to that is not owned by Bushco???

And forget defending yourselves.

Saddam with all his WMDs was not safe (smirk) and a group of NRA hippies will surely fare worse ANYWHERE you go.

Is there a country that is safe for expatriots? Mexico? Canada? Venezuela? Cuba? Costa Rica?

EVERYONE KNOWS who YOU are Symbolman. Where could you possibly go where an activist like you would feel safe???

I need to know???

[KoKo]

184. I know, Seventhson. JMach 1 is in Arab Emerates where he's moved!

I can't think of any place less I'd want to move to than Dubai, AE! But, it's his choice in his young life with his wife and lovely young daughters. You gotta do what you gotta do.

But, NO, there's NO PLACE SAFE from the BFEE, I agree. I applaud DU'ers who seek and find...but don't have much hope that in today's GLOBAL/INTERNET/MONETARY FUND/COMMUNICATION WORLD....we here on DU will ever escape from what is really the FUNDAMENTAL REASON that we are here on Earth Today! We were CHARGED WITH COPING.....Wit CHANGE. We Will Not Escape it....no matter WHERE we go, or try to hide.

It's with us. I didn't ask for it, nor did any of the rest of us.....but it's up to us! :-( The Burden is OVERWHELMING!

WHY US??? :eyes: I don't know........

[seventhson]

190. The Goddess admires us, Koko

we are doing her work to save humanity and her beloved planet earth.

We are special. That is why.

And there are presents waiting under the tree when we get there.

[KoKo]

196. You know, Seventhson, I'd be happy with a good crook necked squash with

warts and "fuzzy stuff" and a good barbeque chicken that had been raised with happiness on a private farm, and a nice breeze and fish in the sea in such abundance and so healthy that Mercury poisoining wasn't a problem for anyone, and where you could take that rod and bait out and cast it for pleasure. And, where the air smelled of the fragrance of the Earth smells of pine, oak, sycamore, maple, evergreens and flowers and musky earthy things instead of the chemical fragrance of "nothing" and if what I ate was nurtured and grown with reverance.

And, Yeah.....give me my airconditioning, heat and "four over four and a door" too! ;-)'s

[seventhson]

199. My wife made moussaka with my abundant organic eggplants just harvested

there are a LOT of things we all should have for our joy and peace...but they are being destroyed by the BushNazis.

Collective action is required for our dreams to come true.

But, like Symbolman, I am afraid it may be too late.

We are blessed to have the spirit to oppose such evil.

[Myra]

186. That's a really good question seventhson

And of course there's no perfect place.
(Actually NZ is close to perfect...).

But, speaking strictly for myself, at least
I can hope to go somewhere that the media isn't
the propaganda wing of the BFEE, where the high
court isn't corrupt, and where corporations don't
own 100% of the gov't.

Right now I have to go to either websites,
or foreign media (e.g., Guardian/Observer)
for my news. That's BS.

And even if I can't accomplish the humble
objectives stated above, I can at least
stop suffering the daily humiliation of being
a stupid loathed clueless 'Merkan.

Man, did you guys watch the debate last night?
That lady wearing stripes in the audience was exhibit A,
asking the Dems why on earth 'Merka was so hated...
Such a mystery to her.
Duh.
Unfortunatly none of the candidates had the backbone
to speak the truth, that we're hated 'cause we undermine
democracy all over the world.

At least if I'm elsewhere I won't have to live
with stripe lady and her ilk.

Oh, and I'd like to get as far from Judy Whoredruff
as possible.

[i have issues]

187. Symbolman,If you DON'T leave,

You can put up a yurt or build a cabin on our new propery in the CA central coast. We just aquired forty acres (no mule) that already has a house, completely off the grid. Solar and wind powered, with our own well.:) We're gonna wait it out and see... If the shrub gets re-selected, The fence goes up, and some serious thought will be given to my lifelong aversion to guns...In the mean time,... see ya L.A!
P.S. love your work!

[symbolman]

192. I wasn't addressing you kerrysissues!

The NRA Hippie comment was to seventhson..

Hey PM me, love to see what you have going..

doesn't mean that you're not the Next Branch Dividians if the MEDIA and Ashcroft decides it..

That's the scary and worse part of this Media occupied territory called the USA, GUILTY until proven innocent by Entertainment Today..

thanks for the offer :)

[symbolman]

188. Who are you calling an NRA

Hippie? :) NRA Hippie?

Seriously, who the hell says Hippie anymore?

[seventhson]

193. Me. I'm a Hippie. Still. I apologize. I meant only to engage and explore..

But you were talking about a communal existence in a defensible place which sounded kinda like leftie survivalists with guns.

I did not mean to offend -- but it kinda sounded like that.

What could you possibly defend with unless you mean weapons (guns)?

The NRA hippes comment was meant to be provocative and I apologize.

At one time in my life I believed that there was going to be a violent revolution in this country. This was after MLK and RFK died and Nixon took office and declared war on US.

BUT I became convinced that NO weapons except the mind and the pen (and now the internet) can work. THEY have EVERY weapon.

So I bristle when someone says they can defens against these fascists.

You might be able to hide out and hole up for years. But if they are not defeated HERE and NOW politically and by a revolutionary change in consciousness (as I believe is trying to happen here - there is a revolt against Bushco and Bushlies and BushNaziism) then NOWHERE you go is "defensible".

I love you Symbolman. I did not think the defensible commune concept is really viable unless your enemies are much weaker. They aren't.

[grasswire]

200. here's what THEY do

They organize themselves into militia to guard against the day when the government declares war on the people. They live in sympathetic areas. (Idaho for one.) They learn survival tactics and they arm themselves. They set up networks of covert communication. They find ways to move about with little attention. They stockpile supplies.

Heh. This is the same tactic of the French Resistance. It's the same tactic of the patriots of the American Revolution.

If you really want to be serious about resisting, perhaps some historical parallels would provide insight.

That said, the situation for high-profile activists like Symbolman requires something of the rest of us who only type on DU and donate money.

Resistance groups hide those who are being hunted. They provide passage and refuge.

Our whole mindset needs to change. Perhaps we need to give up our everyday comforts and prepare for what might come to those whose risk is high. A DU-er has offered her 16 acres of land in Michigan for the building of a community (on another thread).

[seventhson]

204. This is NOT a military struggle

I know. My father worked with the European Resistance and he raised me to know what is what.

I have met MANY of these brave heroes of WWII (many of whom are now dead)

I understand that part about self defense and underground networks.

My point is that it in WWII the Nazis actually WON.

Bush and his family financed Hitler and got away with it and got away with their fortune made on the graves of Jews and leftists and they STAYED in power through blackops and media manipulation and pure evil corruption and murder (JFK. Malcolm, Che, Allende, MLK, RFK, Wellstone, etc etc etc). The WON in WWII and fooled the resistance into believeing they hadn't.

Even fooled US.

We americans thought we won WWII when actually Hitler's Wall Street backers won it GLOBALLY.

Guns and bombs anbd even self defense militias cannot win this battle.

This is a battle which will be fought in ther trenches of the political battlefields and on the internet.

Oh it may come to violence to protect ourselves. It already has.

But retreat to a few 'defensible acres" is a pipe dream.

Symbolman deserves alkl of our praise and if he chooses to go underground then god bless him and keep him safe so he can continue his work.

But we who need to fight this battle cannot do so with guns or by running away to hide out. We need to Oppose it with every breath HERE and NOW.

We need to be vocal and protest. we need to organize and get the vote out.

You cannot get the vote out in Tahiti or Vancouver or Costa Rica.

If we abandon democracy (if there is no hope left for 2004 or 2008 or 2012) then maybe flight is wisest. But unless we fight here n the trenches and ghettoes and streets and pubs and the college campuses -- unoess we already have a bullet oin our forehead - then we will never win.

[seventhson]

194. I admire Symbolman enormously, but is this possible???

To Be Clear, You said:

"I'm going to a small controlled land area that is communal, where I know that my pals and I can defend ourselves, where I can grow my own food and know what I put in my mouth is safe, and keep a low profile (tho I will still be creating animations and whatever else to fight these bastards as much as I can) and live happily with a minimum of fear. We are going to need each other more than ever now."


I am fine with what you want to do. We DO need your work and we need you safe,

My issue was Where is there a small controlled land area where you can defend yourselves from the BUSHNazis?

I have asked myself this for years.

You can run, but you can't hide, really (unless you are one of THEIR contract employees like the anthrax killer or Saddam or any of the Bin Ladens)from my point of view.

If you are low profile enough, then you might be able to work and defend safely there.

But we will STILL need YOU more than ever. And the lower profile you are maybe the less effective you will be in fighting the Jabberwocky.

Anyway, my solution is to jump totally into the vortex with my book and my research and hope that I do not end up like Jim Hatfield.

I would say we should be like Will Pitt except that he supports the guy I despise who I think is a spook like Clark.

Being a Hippie merely means that one is "Hip" to what is "hip" and lives it.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventhson]

197. I would have to say you are totally ignorant...

of Symbolman's contributions here and in the media.

The fact that the right wing has targeted him for economic/social destruction should tell you that he has been in the fight and will stay in it whether withoin or without the borders.

Show some respect, man, or refrain from the jingoistic self-righteous puke.

[FubarFly]

201. Good luck.

I have complete and total respect for anyone who feels like you do. You've given your heart to this country and have gotten very little in return. You have every right to take care of yourself. We all have to fight this war in our own way and there is not one of us who has the foresight and wisdom to say which is the right path for you. I thankyou for all of which you contributed, and I can honestly say that your work has and will continue to enrich many lives even after you're gone. I wish you nothing but good fortune. Cheers.


:toast:

[Generic Other]

205. It makes me so sad to see what these fascists have done to my country

The brightest and the best exiled. Symbolman is a patriot. He fought a hell of a lot harder than some of his detractors here on DU. He raised the banner of resistance, irritated a lot of powerful people, lifted our spirits when things looked worst. How many times did a Symbolman flash make me smile when I was feeling lowest? How many times did he give us all aid and comfort when the enemy was nipping at our heels? He faced Bill O'Reilly for us! He marched in the protests, organized the boycotts, led the troops into battle.

And some of you so hardhearted you can't even muster up an ounce of compassion for this man in his time of need? It's a good thing it's Friday night, because I am going to get drunk and maudlin after reading this thread.

Good luck to you and your wife, Symbolman. And please don't stop doing what you do no matter where you land!

You still have a mission to complete.

Peace

[symbolman]

212. Glad I make some people

happy with the flash work - it's what I'm best at and that's what your work should be, as Campbell said, Follow your Bliss.. make your job what you love to do..

thanks for all the kind words.. don't worry, I'll keep hammering, I can't stop doing this..

but I'd rather do it from a tropical paradise than a cell :)

and these people are Dangerous, if nothing else for the way the screw everything up.. all they do is destabilize, and if you get in the way, patriot or not, you're going to get it..

It's not about country anymore, these are Corporate wars.. we need to fight them with MONEY. we need to KEEP our money and not give it to them...

remember to ALWAYS think twice before you spend a DIME. WHere is it going to go, your money can be lethal in their hands, let it be YOUR weapon of choice.

LIFE as a BOYCOTT is the answer, we can STARVE them of money. Especially when you don't buy their products and that included american flags made in china :)

thanks everyone!

[Zorra]

213. Right effing on!

Quoted from symbolmans post:

It's not about country anymore, these are Corporate wars.. we need to fight them with MONEY. we need to KEEP our money and not give it to them...

remember to ALWAYS think twice before you spend a DIME. WHere is it going to go, your money can be lethal in their hands, let it be YOUR weapon of choice.

LIFE as a BOYCOTT is the answer, we can STARVE them of money. Especially when you don't buy their products and that included american flags made in china
------------------------
Hitting them in the pocketbook is harder on them than cutting out their black little hearts. If every Democrat did this....

Simply stop giving republicans your money. Every penny you don't give them takes a little more of their power to control your life away. Try it, you'll like it.

[tlcandie]

216. Symbolman ... may your spirit survive to fight another day!

Follow your heart...a physcial address is just that! There are no boundaries to our spirits and there are many facets or many ways to accomplish anything!

Blessings to you and yours for all you've given and will continue to do! May those who choose another path support you in your path and treat you as they would want to be treated!

:hug:

[frank frankly]

217. I hear you

Your thoughts on this are very close to mine.

I wish you the best and hope you continue your work. Depending on the next few months, maybe I'll see you there...

[Carolina]

219. symbolman, I understand

the desperation and despair that leads to the "I'm outta here" sentiment. I, too, have put aside what I call my 'run away to Canada money'; and if a draft is reinstated, I will definitely flee with my draft-age child.

Still, I wax and wane between determination to fight to the end and
resignation that you can't fight the ignorance and apathy of the people and the already consolidated power of the GOP pols and their media propagandists.

I have had a good ride during my 50 years in this life, and will stick out whatever more time I'm given in this country unless my child is threatened. I often think about an old family story: My slave born great, great grandfather (also his master's son ..) said on his death bed in 1900 that this country had 100 years to reconcile the lofty ideals of its founders with their abominable actions of genocide and slavery. One hundred years, and then the nation would fall under the weight of its own hypocrisy and arrogance.

... Greece, Rome, Great Britain, USA: ave et vale.

[bhunt70]

221. I want to move to another country because...

I think it would be a great experience.

I love the comforts of America though, so while I may move away some day I will probably move back.

[Generic Other]

226. Nursing my hangover this morning, Symbolman!

I wonder how long before we are all forced to go underground? Either lterally or figuratively. Activism is becoming a dangerous act of courage in Nazi America.

I will never forget those like you who raised their voices while the rest of the nation turned a blind eye. None of us should forget.

And just think, there will now be Radio Free Savage/Rush in America. I wish I could say TBTM was responsible, but I think the two stooges have only themselves to blame for their downfall. TBTM is only guilty of snickering behind their backs! ;)

[symbolman]

227. You know

every time someone double thinks before they speak, if they halt a few words in case they may offend someone that believes the bullshit imposed on us by the Media and the Monsters squatting in Washington - then they already ARE living Underground..

they have imprisoned their own mind.

Freedom of speech is in the first amendment for a reason, it's the most important and that's the FIRST thing these bastards go after.. you are a Traitor to america if you Speak out against them..

I will NOT shut up, and if I have to go to another corner of the world to scream TRUTH at these creatures then so be it. But as one poster suggested here, to eat a chicken that ran in the yard, to grow safe veggies, to smell the ocean and jasmine while I do it will take th sting away.. ever read The Ugly American? A good read.

And We are already the Underground, especially for our very speech, look at the url here :)

Why should Freedom be considered underground when so many people DIED for it?

Black is White,
Ignorance is Freedom,
War is Peace,
Bush is President :)