Dang - I missed the debate - and have NO idea what folks are talking

[salin]

about.

As I read the headlines in LBN this morning at 7am (central) -there was no big story (this is where I get my "daily dose" of news). That is not good. In the past there have been numerous news items that spin out of the debates.

Didn't get back to DU or to GD til a half hour ago. Am seeing references to a 'fax' with charges right and left (not politically right and left... just metaphorically - all directions) - it was the press. It was the WH because they are targetting Kerry. It was Kerry.

But I have NO idea what the fax was.

I read a reference to the candidates piling up on Clark.

Again, I have no idea who/how or what.

Where does one go - to find a layout of what happened in the debates - the key things that happened - without a whole lot of editorializing and flaming in the process?

A link? A discussion? It is like having walked into a room, where the president threw up on a world leader 3 hours ago, and only getting the discussion of the message sent and ramifications - without being able to get the key piece of information about what happened (eg no one is talking about the incident... just the aftermath).

[realFedUp]

1. Debate thread #4 plus first three found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=507432

[salin]

3. Thanks

I will try to work chronologically (and skip as much flaming as possible).

[blm]

2. As way of explanation on the "fax"

You know how the campaigns have their fax rooms sending corrections, denials, and rebuttals during the debate, to be used by the press to check into afterwards. Well, CNN pulled one of those faxes from the Kerry campaign and AIRED it during the debate, making it appear to the average audience that it was a "dirty trick" from Kerry, and not acknowledging that these faxes are standard procedure during debates.

[salin]

5. but what was it?

All I know is that a "fax" was sent and read. What was the content? Something of substance - or is the bruhaha just about the event of it happening?

[blm]

10. The bruhaha is that it happened.

I think they don't understand that ANY of the campaigns could have been made to look like the bad guy in this scenario, because every campaign is doing this in the press room. CNN is the bad guy, but, I doubt the newbies will take the time to understand that.

But, the fax itself was about the decision by Dean as gov. of Vermont to cut some services to balance the budget.

[salin]

11. Just finished reading debate thread #1

the realtime DU discussion. If nothing else is apparent so far in my reading, it is that Woodruff was becoming part of the story rather than just moderating. Sounds like she was snippy and cutting folks off right and left. Could be that folks are defensive for their candidates and thus I would "see" something else had I watched the debate, but reading it - it sounds like she was becoming an active participant. Thus - (and I haven't gotten to "the fax") your take would make sense. BTW, I didn't know that the campaigns faxed to the network during the debate. Why? To try to get their points into the post-debate discussion?

[blm]

15. Not just to the news networks, but

to all the media sources.

[salin]

17. Thanks for the content

even reading the debate thread in which it happened (#4) no one says what was in it. Your assessment (that the reaction is more about the event than the content) appears to be on the mark. and having read the commentary on Woodruff's behavior - and that a Cnn staffer brought her the fax on stage - looks like CNN decided to inject more interparty bashing (just after Judy tells them "not to bash bush" in answers. Which is okay if she wants them to focus on policies/issues; but if she (or the staff) then tries to invoke such bashing (not talking about issues as much as sniping/bashing) - it seems a bit contrived).

[Ripley]

19. CNN also tried to get a fight going for ratings...

The only time they ever had a split screen between 2 candidates was between Dean (who was being attacked) and I think it was Gephardt, or it could have been Lieberman. But clearly they were hoping to "catch" Dean getting pissed off at the attack. He didn't of course.

[blm]

22. Now CNN is claiming it was a "Mistake"...yeah...sure.

>>>>>
But one of the impromptu critiques accidentally made its way into the debate itself. During an audience question-and-answer period, CNN moderator Judy Woodruff said she was just handed a "document" from the campaign of Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry saying Howard Dean tried "to kick Vermont seniors off prescription drug plan" when he was governor. She then pressed Dean for a response. He called the accusation silly.

"What I did try to do was get a cigarette tax past the Republican House," Dean said. "I told them if they didn't pass a cigarette tax to pay for our health care program, then they wouldn't be able to fund seniors' prescriptions. They passed the cigarette tax, as I knew they would."

Kerry retorted that his press release was accurate.

"In order to balance his budget, he called for the full termination of what was called the V-Script program, and also turned to seniors and made prescription drugs more expensive for them in order to balance the budget," Kerry said.
The strange moment was actually a mistake, CNN officials admitted.

"Sometimes during the course of these debates weird stuff happens," said Tom Hannon, CNN's political director. "The idea at one point was to read one of these documents to see if the candidates could back up their statement. We ultimately decided against it. How it got in there was unintentional. Not everyone got the word apparently."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1010debate-side10.html

[Ripley]

4. Not everyone piled up on Clark.

In fact Sharpton and Edwards really impressed me as two who completely stayed out of the mud slinging.

Basically Lieberman, Kerry and Dean (on a much smaller and less inflammatory level) questioned Clark's flip-flop on the war and having praised Bushco. Clark explained himself well to me. He said in 2001 he was hopeful for our country and wanted the administration to succeed. He said 2 years later they had failed and were taking us in the wrong direction. Now I'm a Dean person but I found that answere acceptable and honest it seemed.

Kerry and Lieberman lied about Dean as usual and Kucinich tried to say Dean lied about him after he clearly named those who voted for the war resolution (not including Kucinich)...so he went after him too altho erroneously.

I liked the debate style, more personable.

[salin]

7. thanks

from the little I have read this morning, it sounds like Edwards did quite well.

Also nice for Sharpton to get visible a bit more and seen more as one who speaks to issues in an insightful way, rather than the media opportunist as he has been perceived for a number of years. While his candidacy may not go anywhere, I think his ability to be heard on issues will increase. Often, prior to the debates, when news shows would bring him on, I always got the impression they brought him on more for the sideshow (their view) effect than really as a voice for a differing perspective (thus they give the appearance of giving a different perspective but tried to marginalize it by making him the voice). I think that the debates and profile may just change that dynamic.

[JI7]

16. well edwards did respond

when clark said something about how he hoped or wished the bush administration would do well , edwards responded to those comments by saying he never wished that about the bush administration. so it's not as if he totally stayed out of it as you claim.

[Booberdawg]

6. salin - best line of the night

from Kerry

There are two ways to get low cost prescription drugs in America: The first is to hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper. The second is to vote for me.

[salin]

8. hehehe.... very good line indeed! eom

[Ripley]

9. Yeah, that was great, but he went a little too far in being funny guy.

In fact when Edwards was talking seriously to the stroke victim and said she moved away from Mass...Kerry jumped in with some stupid baseball reference.

Judy Woodruff totally sucked, she was condescending and constantly tried to edit what they could say..."We all know you are Democrats and don't like Bush." WTF is she doing...censoring a debate of candidates AGAINST BUSH?????? Also why was she walking around on stage. I thought that was incredibly distracting watching her march around in front of them like a school teacher. Moderators should sit the hell down and show some respect.

[JI7]

12. not exactly

it was after edwards joked about how he is sure she didn't move because she doesn't like the state and she said no and they laughed and looked at kerry who also laughed it off with that comment. so the joke wasn't made during a serious moment.

[Ripley]

13. Okay, but frankly Kerry shouldn't have interrupted Edwards time

to throw in a Red Sox plug. He was trying too hard to be funny guy.

[JI7]

14. please

it was during a light moment when they were laughing and he just laughed it off also by the comment.

[salin]

18. Thanks all - and reading the debate threads I conclude: Woodruff

should be forced to watch her performance - clockwork orange style - 10 times in arow - without being able to move except to go to the bathroom. Even she would cringe if she had to watch her own behavior again and again. She once did view herself as a journalist.

[blm]

23. That seemed so long ago, though.

I get the sense that there is more at stake...like their jobs. Sad, but, they may be forcing her to counter her husband who tends to side with the left more often than not.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=57448

In P & C. It includes a link to the transcript of the debate as well as some background articles from Vermont newspapers covering the original budget debate...

[eileen_d]

21. DU rocks!

Thanks to this thread I went and read the 4 live debate threads. It was like being in a room of friends watching the "game" - as opposed to being alone in my house playing my pity fiddle :nopity:

And now I will read the transcript to get "the rest of the story"

[GiovanniC]

26. We Should All Get Together Regionally

And watch these debates... sort of like "Meetups", sort of like watching the "game". That would be great.

[mandyky]

24. I imagine Cspan will run the debate this weekend

Check the CNN website, they may have CNN radio versian of the debate.

[diamondsoul]

25. Here's the transcript link-

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/se.html