Comments on last night's Frontline

[BigBigBigBear]

Excellent program - Chalabi came across as a smirking, smug Iraqi mafioso-wannabe. The idea that we premised the successful transformation of Iraqi political foundations on him is laughable - the Iraqis had no idea who he was, only that he had been deposited via US chopper.

But to me, the real revelation was Bremer's "de-Baathist-ization" - throwing thousands of people, the vast majority of whom had no role in torture or subjugation of Iraqis, out of work and telling them they had NO ROLE in the new Iraq.

These were the civil servants, the clerks, the gears of a government. They had no loyalty to anyone except feeding their families. We have made enemies of them now, we have told them they are non-persons now.

This is beyond stupid - the sheer force of will of this administration to try to turn this into Berlin 1945, simply because the politics are floundering, is utterly nauseating. These guys have NO IDEA what they're doing.

To me - this is what explains the chaos we read about every morning.

[arcane1]

1. this was not a war, not liberation, not protecting the Murkan people

this was a corporate acquisition, the largest in history. Of course they'll fire all the old 'employees'

the scene where they used a tank to crush the 'looter's' car for having 20 pcs of wood on the roof, just about had be throwing the tv out the window :grr:

[BigBigBigBear]

4. I missed this

I had read about this segment, but I was making dinner for my wife and must have been momentarily distracted.

I did get the shot-dead innocent bystander.

Soldier says, "Oh, He wasn't a shooter." And they saunter off. Like it was nothing.

[arcane1]

8. with all due respect for the troops...

the 3 or 4 involved seemed to really get a kick out of destroying that man's car

[Evil_Dewers]

9. Man...

Were the troops ordered to crush that car, or was that their "initiative?"

No wonder the troops are getting killed daily. The Iraqis hate American troops who fire into crowds and crush a taxi driver's livelihood because they "stole" 20 pieces of wood. Remember when that Iraqi picked up the blood of a dead protestor shot by US troops and shouted "Your liberation is a dog" or something like that? I was high on Oxycontin so I don't remember what he exactly said. ;)

I support the troops (I want them home now), but the Freepers don't support the troops who whine about guarding mass graves.

Chalabi - a liar and a thief. Should be in a Lebanon prison right now.

Total screwup immediately after the taking of Baghdad. That fired Lt. General took residence in Saddam's main palace--what an idiot--wrong signal to send.

[ellie]

2. The feeling I got

was that we are making it up as we go along. At one point I yelled at the T.V., what is this amateur night? I can't believe these neocons have taken over our government. Not only are they evil, they are STUPID! They disregarded the advice of people in the State Department that have years of experience in these matters. And for what? So if things go right they could take credit for it? I wanted to reach in and slap Perle. I am unsure of whether these kinds of monumental screw-ups are part of a bigger plan or further evidence of their extreme incompetence.

[arcane1]

7. slapping Perle...

would be MUCH too kind

[Homer12]

3. There is no exit strategy for Iraq

And there never was.

The ultimate goal of Iraq was to set-up a longterm military presence in the Middle East.

1. To have military control of Energy resources that Europe and other nations need.

2. The have control over Oil resources for the USA

3. etc...

[knowledgeispower]

14. Don't forget war profiteering

All those poor folk at Halliburton and Bechtel have to put food on their table somehow

[Noordam]

5. More bush lies

de-Baathist-ization --- is the reason 1-4 Americans are dying by the hands of "Saddem loyalist" per Whistle Ass. No ass hole you kicked people out of work and they turned against you.


How about them killing the guy next to the camera man and walking up and saying "was he a shooter" -- "No" and then walking away from the guy they just killed.

[Noordam]

6. General Garner did impress me

Before they took control away from him and de-Baathist-ization Baghdad, there were very few American soldiers dying.

Sounds like he had the right ideas.

[hedda_foil]

16. Garner impressed me too.... to my great surprise.

[Unknown Known]

10. The show was good, but did not delve into the neocons enough

I was disappointed that the civilians within the Pentagon that have driven our foreign policy were not named, except for Doug Feith and Wolfowitz.

Also, was dissatisfied with what they left out about Chalabi, especially that he is an escaped fugitive from Jordon convicted for embezzlement, fraud and currency-trade irregularities. Just a SMALL thing, but I would think American tax-payers would be interested to know that BushCo is about to turn over a large part of that $87 billion to this convicted criminal!

But the show was overall superior to anything I've seen so far.

[9215]

11. The UN was suppose to

clean up the mess Bush made or, at least, keep the blame game going while the Bush fascists got rich off of government contracts. The prob is, hee, hee, the UN and the world community are growing wise to this game and they are not willing to go into Iraq. Bush is having his feet held to the fire and this situation degenerates the responsiblity, if the UN and foreign nations hold to their present course, will continue to fall on Bush.

Bush cannot fix Iraq because his idealogy is anti-govermnent, anti-democratic. The best he could have hoped for was to shift the responsiblity for the Iraq disaster onto a third party or parties.

Here is a link on Chalabi's business interests:

James Woolsey

....A long-time supporter of war on Iraq and PNAC and Jinsa member, the former director of the CIA has been named as the likely minister of information in the new Iraq. His business interests have included: the arms company British Aerospace; the Titan Corporation, which provides military interpreters and DynCorp, which provides bodyguards for Hamid Karzai, the Afghani president and has installed a police force monitoring service in Bosnia. DynCorp is being sued for human rights violations in Bosnia, environmental health disasters in Ecuador and fraud in America. He was a partner in the law firm, Shea and Gardner, which acts as foreign agents for the Iraqi National Congress, led by Chalabi. He is vice-president of Booz Allen Hamilton, a corporate consultant firm, which won a contract to develop a computer model of post-war Iraqi society after the first Gulf war I. Booz Allen is also closely linked to the DPB. He said that "only fear will re-establish respect for us ... we need a little bit of Machiavelli". He has also said: "We really don't need the Europeans. Anyways, they will be the first in line patting us on the back following our success and saying they were with us all along."


continued ... <http://www.sundayherald.com/33079>

[BigBigBigBear]

12. One thing I don't get

is how this whole Rummy-Rice fumbled-reorganization this week figures into the State vs DoD power struggle. I thought Rice and Rummy were on the same side.

Unless (tin foil hat time), they're positioning Rice for a higher profile role in anticipation of replacing Cheney on the '04 ticket.

Hey, fine with me. She's been out front and pulling away in the Incompetent Liar Derby. Pre-9/11 warnings mismanagement and the Yellowcake fiasco has proven she's in over her head.

Rove may be gambling that an African American female on the ticket will distract from the utter mess they've made. Fat chance.

[stevedeshazer]

13. "So what? We're in Baghdad now."

Chalabi really gives me the creeps. What a transparent bastard. And this is who Bushco chose to believe? He lies on a grand scale, and gets rewarded for it.

[Gin]

32. We (American taxpayers) have been paying this slug's salary since

the 90's via the CIA....now it's because he's on the council.

The soldiers in Iraq are becoming cold blooded killers. When they get home, I pity their families.

[Kolesar]

15. de-Baathist-ization will allow the Shi'ites to take over

The southern Shi'ties are the other major political organization in Iraq, with an existing power structure. Is America ready for another Islamic revolution, this one by actual Arabs?
.........................
I recall that months ago when the invasion began, Frontline ran a horribly partisan account of the last 12 years in Iraq, complete with interviews by Richard Perle and William Kristol. I hope many Americans saw last night's show.

[chookie]

17. I don't understand Chalabi's role in all this

I agree that he is a slimy lying bastard. The only credibility a thug like that would have is with other slimy lying bastards.

He clearly expected to be installed as King Warlord -- as the US did with the Shah.

Certainly, the US has the power to enthrone the son of a bitch -- but what I don't understand is why they did not. Not saying that they *should*.

Is it because he was not willing to give the US total control and just be their puppet? Is it cash, or is it ideology, for example, his position on Israel -- because I believe that the Bush administration will require that the new Iraqi Constitution be pro-Israel.

Does anyone know why the US dumped this asshole, whereas it continues to embrace other assholes?

[Oilwellian]

21. I can't wait to see...

Bush explain why he chose Chalabi's shady intelligence information as a pretext for this war, over our traditional intelligence sources. The more people learn about Chalabi and his direct hand in getting this war on, the more they'll question why Bush backed this criminal.

Did anyone see Khomeini's grandson on CSpan this morning asking for US support for regime change in Iran? Since Chalabi has very close ties with him, I wonder if he's behind this push for war in Iran as well.

[julka]

28. many think (me) that he was the KEY source of "intel" driving to war

oops Pudge vs. Wood

bases loaded, two out.....Cubs lead, 2-1

L8R

[julka]

29. YES !!!!! K on three pitches!

Now....many instances of worthless Chalabi-and-friends mis/disinfo, including "documents" offered to interviewer last night re: Alqaeda connections. documents which NEVER surfaced.

the show mentioned specifically how neos (Perle quoted on show, was it?) did not like CIA "model" of what was coming out of mideast, intel-wise; they view CIA as incomptetent, hence the organization of OSP........which was never mentioned, I believe.

Thielman was the one who came up with the faith-based intel quote, I think, and scoffed at the idea of this small, insular, isolated, adhoc Pentagon group's abilitiy to come up with any credible intel.

seems like the preponderance of 'evidence' they amassed came from Chalabi/INC sources.

too bad they didn't have Karen Kwiatkowski on

Karen Kwiatkowski....... (http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski-arch.html),
a recently retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who spent most of her final three years of military service in the Office of the US Secretary of Defense's Under Secretariat for Policy, gave her insider's account of how the decisions have been corrupted by the Bush administration.

I heard her on the excellent thisishell.com (Northwestern U radio show, Saturdays, 9AM CST) online.

she was on one of the cable shows once, too. that was it. too bad they didn't have her on as often as all those other warcreeps

check her columns at lew rockwell.....she knows what she's talking about, and isn't afraid to say it.

[TrogL]

18. A telling moment

I didn't catch the whole show but saw some of it.

At one point, for no adequately explained reason, a US tank ran over an Iraqi car - a taxi cab, the owner's sole source of livelihood.

Can you say "quagmire"?

[chookie]

19. That was disturbing

But it does tell us that not all freepers are armchair patriots, supporting the troops by cheering them when they appear on Fox, but some are actually over there in Iraq, spreading their vision of America.

I know that these guys were not trained to be policemen, but what this episode showed was sadistic enjoyment of inflicting suffering by means of superior force upon helpless people. This is barbarism. Keeping order gains the respect of people -- abusing power in this manner breeds hatred among them.

[ronzo]

30. And some folks don't get it... they wonder why they hate us.

It's embarrassing, really.

[musiclawyer]

20. The producers of Frontline are ingenious

First they basically let Chalabi and the other exiled guy run their mouth, so that you can see their real intent--throw Saddam out regardless of the cost. The guy with glasses at the end concluding that the war was "an experiment" sent chill sup the spine.

Second, they basically showed how the military brass threw away the State Department's well thought out pan to secure the the country immediatelly after the overthrow to prevent chaos.

Finally, they show how the White house lies and distorts the intelligence and defies the intelligence community to argue that there is an imminent threat to USA. Did you see the expression on Kofi Annan's face when Colin Powell is spewing nonsense at the UN. Priceless.

We all need to write Frontline and tell them to do a follow up show on 1. which Administration people (not Chalabi groups) wanted the war and 2. why( getting into PNAC and Chaney/Haliburton etc. That's a whole two hour show there alone! Please write Frontline.

[qanda]

22. My jaw dropped at how cold our soldiers can be

I'm sorry, but I began to understand the anger that many Iraqis must feel when I saw them crush the guys car for looting. Then the killing of innocent civilians and the heartless response, was too much to take. I know that they are not police and are trained to fight and not "keep order", but aren't they still human-- how can they be so cold?

[eleny]

23. Bernie Ward was discussing it last night, too

He talked about Chilabi's interview.

I only saw he last part of it. The filming of the soldiers' response after they killed the innocent bystander was shocking. I honestly didn't think they would deal with it so casually. This war is going to bring us a new generation of people destroyed by such brutality.

[qanda]

25. My fear is that

This is the attitude these soldier will bring back to America. I pray we don't have more Timothy McVeighs and DC snipers, but from what I saw last night, I wouldn't be surprised.

[swinney]

24. CHALABI IS CONVICTED CRIMINAL ON THE LAM

I cannot understand why he has not been extradicted to Jordan!

He was convicted by the Jordanian Court and is WANTED.

He is close pal of Rumsfeld.

He lied and misled us into war.

I guess this is typical for Republicans. Promote our crooks.

Where the outcry? Remember Bob Livingston? He is profiteering from Terrorism and War. Promote our crooks.

[Fridays Child]

33. Note that his trouble in Jordan was left unmentioned by Frontline.

Although the producers made some good points, they were altogether too sympathetic to the INC, in my view.

[Duncan Grant]

26. The irony of Richard Perle calling for a liberal government...

to be established in Iraq! Did you see him hesitate just after that flew out of his mouth! More duplicity from the corrupt bastards.

:grr: :nuke:

[Kolesar]

27. Why is this news? I knew about Chalabi half a year ago!

I vividly recall news stories that Bush administration set up its own "intelligence unit" composed of Iraqi expatriots and was ignoring the intelligence from the established intelligence agencies such as the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.

These stories need to come out soon, so that Bush is on the defensive all through the 2004 campaign.

[lfairban]

31. I saw the replay last night . . .

. . . it started at 1:00 in the morning.

It is also available on the web:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

It includes a link to watch the whole show.

[KoKo]

34. A "Kick" because this was an EXCELLENT "Investigative Report." And it

matters, to all of us here and in Iraq and in the world.

[WillyBrandt]

35. Portraits of the Players

I came to sympathize with many of the people thrown into this mess, more than I thought I would (especially Gardner, and some of the lower-ranking generals). Others I detest.

I hope you don't mind some thoughts on the players that I formed:

- The soldiers are thrown into a situation of the civilians' making; they do not have the training or the resources to win. Remember when they crushed the "looter's" car? If they didn't do draconian things like this they would be abetting looting; but doing such things is cruel and reckless. They do not want to be doing this crap: they are taking the least evil of horrible options.

- The State Department had the actual boring plans for water, electricity, etc. spelled out in some detailed, and had that work thrown away because of Wolfowitz's petulance. These boring details would have saved thousands of Iraqi lives, dozens of soldiers' lives, and billions in taxpayers dollars. They are the meat of reconstruction and were wasted because the ideologues couldn't be bothered.

- Gardner clearly knows that the DoD civilians fucked up. He actually had a good grasp on what was needed, but was shoved aside.

- Even Bremer. He might believe in what he's doing, but you could tell that he knew it was founded upon lies. He seems to be doing his best in a totally shitty situation. If he was a crazy neo-con before, he has obviously been mugged by reality.

- Frontline was hawkish on Iraq, but have done a 180 and mentioned that they themselves believed the lies. Good for Frontline.

- Perle, Chalabi: what fucking frauds these two slimeballs are. I hope Perle appears on TV over and over. His vanity is his undoing: he's got a certain slickness down pat, but it's a sleazy contrast to the death of our soldiers and the misery of Iraqis. Chalabi: he used America and the non-sane wing of the GOP (which is running the show, alas) to try and make himself king of Iraq. Kids are dead because of his foul ambition. Roads and hospitals and schools and oilwells aren't functioning because of his lies.

- Kanan Makiya. I deeply admire his writing. He obviously believes in a liberated Iraq and in democracy. He is genuine, I think. someone I read referred to him as a "tragic figure," and that's just right. His vision of democracy lead him twice astray: it led him stupidly into bed with imperialist hucksters like Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld; it led him into the paradise of ideology and dreaming, of grand theories of Arab democracy. He obviously knows the bruality and the evil of Saddam. He knows the dark forces being stirred in Iraq. But he's looking as a castle afar of Iraqi democracy, almost blinded, while giving no thought to the practical, necessary details of the route there--instead of working with State to plan out water pumps and police forces, he writes articles and drafts play-constitutions.

That's the problem when a good soul and a good vision and foul friends induce an allergy to reality: there is death all around, but you continue marching on.

[WillyBrandt]

36. Here is the program link, by the way

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

Watch the show online. Good reading too.