Gergan brings up a good point: guys dig Dean.

[WhosNext]

Anyone see David Gergan commenting on the debates last night on Larry King? Said no one particularly stood out, but mentioned how he taught a class at Ole Miss (conservative school) where the class of mostly white males said that Dean was the most appealing. Gergan claimed that the men thought Dean carried himself in a masculine way and came off as a stright-shooter with "inner steel" (sic). I thought it was a very interestng point. Out of all our candidates, guys seem to dig Dean. IMO he gives off that "won't take shit" type of aura. This could be an important trait.

[meegbear]

1. dean turns on conseravtive men??

No sir, don't like it a bit.

[WhosNext]

2. Yes, a candidate appealing to white men SUCKS

:eyes:

[cprise]

13. He didn't say the class was mixed an ONLY white men like Dean

The class was full of white men and they liked Dean.

I see what they like about him, but the body language doesn't matter as much to me. It's Deans stances and how he has recognized that insider politics has gone too far.

[Maple]

3. Appealing to all voters

is vital.

[Selwynn]

4. I am a guy.

I do not "dig" Dean.

[rucky]

5. The meetups I've gone to...

have been 50/50 white women to white men. My wife LOVES the guy & I like him too...but I'm still leaning toward Kucinich. Go figure.

[Cha]

6. Dean appeals to a lot of Different kinds of People..

I, myself, happen to be middle aged, white, and female.

The guy, who came into our Co-op today & saw my Dean buttons asked me where he could get one because Dean was "his guy",..was in his 30's, white, and married. I told him he had "made my Day" and that I would try and get him a Dean button the next time he came in! :kick:

[spooky3]

7. Haven't they also liked Clark?

I think we may be facing something analogous to the SCOTUS dynamic, where the "swing" voters are very powerful in many decisions. Much as I don't like it, I believe that in general the Democratic leadership believes that women and minorities will vote for them but that they have to attract the male voters like those who went for Arnie. They may be right, but I believe that if trends continue (poor economy getting worse due to tax cut policy and other factors, Iraq, no results on Bin Laden, traitorgate, etc.) it won't be necessary for them to segment the electorate. I am hopeful that Bush II will have the same experience as Bush I, though it will be more difficult given that big media is now part of the Bush II machine.

[spooky3]

9. and the DU poll recently

showed Dean appealing about equally to men and women here, I think.

I'm a woman who likes him because I agree with him on a lot of positions (but not all) and I also think he was courageous to speak out when he did, and showed others how to do it. I also like the fact that he could have lived a life of privilege but is higher minded than that.

[tjdee]

8. I wonder if most DU posters are men.

I think so. Lots of ladies, but I think the majority is menfolk.

[spooky3]

10. I do too; how about starting a poll about our demographics?

[roughsatori]

11. Anecdotal stories like Gergon's just don't cut the mustard for me

I am sick of "pundits" and "news journalists" using anecdotal evidence as if it had any real meaning. I guess it is much easier then doing research. :puke:

[West Coast Democrat]

12. I think a Dean-Clark ticket would be hard to beat

I think it's important to appeal to the South & Mid-West; this combo would be excellent for that.

We really have some tough open Senate seats in the South, and whomever could really grab a bit of Southern White vote would make a world of difference.

[spooky3]

14. I don't get why you think this would appeal to the Mid-West

unless it's for non-geographic reasons (which it ought to be, but I'm just trying to understand your thinking). Is it because you think they represent the typical opinions of people in those states? I'm not sure they are the best fit.

People living around the Great Lakes (who generally think of themselves as midwesterners) might prefer someone from their part of the country, all other factors being equal, and there are a lot of electoral votes in those states.

[West Coast Democrat]

16. For non-geographic reasons

I'm thinking Dean would appeal to the upper-Midwest, and Clark to the lower-Midwest. Gephardt is good for the Midwest, but really not strong enough to run in the South (imo).

[A-Schwarzenegger]

15. Was there any of the gays in Gorgen class?

Dean is a rugged type and rolls his sleeves up
like he's ready to rumble, so I don't know. A lot
of men have a subconscious that is going on.

[Quahog]

17. It is an interesting observation

I try to keep my office conversations away from politics, because even here in left-leaning Rhode Island I am well to the left of most folks. But people are starting to talk about the candidates, and I'm willing to jump in. And many of them are talking about them in the same way that Californians talked about their candidates: who's hunky, who isn't. It's not just women and gay men doing this. While the straight guys don't observe that Dean is "hot" (as many of the women here have suggested), there is certainly a component of masculine assuredness in Dean's projected personna that appears to have broad appeal to both genders and all orientations.

Not a lot of talk so far about positions, sadly. But much reminiscing about the Gore debacle of 2000. Interesting that in several conversations I've overheard, whenever Gore and Dean are mentioned in the same thread someone mentions Gore's wonkiness or lack of babe-appeal. I recognize that this is totally superficial and so forth, but hey, it worked for Ahnold in CA. And this IS what this thread is about, after all.

Dean comes off as a guy's guy, kind of rugged and outdoorsey, the sort of guy you can picture camping with his family. I don't know if he does this or not, but it's easy to imagine him pitching a tent, or bass fishing. And "guys" do "dig" that, and as much as we progressives may HATE the fact that such things matter, they do matter, and they go in Dean's favor. They probably go in Clark's favor too, he's got the same kind of unpretentious "maleness" that seems to exude confidence even when he may be verbally stumbling.

You know, a couple of weeks ago I wouldn't have even read this thread, much less posted about it. But then I read copious quotes from voters who chose Ahnold in CA, and it became clear that physical characteristics and personality issues are PARAMOUNT to many voters when they pull that lever. We would be unwise to ignore the significance of Dean's (or Clark's) gender appeal in weighing our candidates' chances against the monkey.

[West Coast Democrat]

18. I guess we have to get a ticket to appeal to men AND women

How about Dean-Edwards or Clark-Edwards or anyone-Edwards?!!

[mandyky]

22. Dean got his entry into politics

by getting into local politics to build a bike path. Dean is an outdoorsman, he has said that is why he moved from NYC to Vermont, because he like to fish, hike and camp. He doesn't mention this often but he does exude an aura of masculinity, while he can still support gay rights. The man is an enigma, in a lot of ways. Just as he can't be pegged a liberal or a conservative, he also seems to project a "nice" innerself that appeals to both men and women. It probably hasn't hurt that he's lived in a rural state for 20 years or so.

[mandyky]

19. I think Dean is this election's McCain

I think Gergan actually said conservative students. Dean's stance on guns and balanced budgets plus his outsider, straight talk makes guys respect Dean. I think Dean's message of empowering the American electorate too.

One reason I chose to support Dean was that I thought southerners would go for Dean's gun stuff and his arguement that even people with Confederate flag decals need good schools and health insurance too.
Dean has proven he appeals not only to Dems, but moderate repubs, independents, and libertarians.

[Larkspur]

20. Dean is definitely masculine in bearing but there is no machismo

in him at all. As a feminist who has worked in a male dominated field for 20 years, I can smell machismo immediately from men who have even the faintest scent of it.

My Town Chair, a woman, and I had a discussion a few months ago on why Dean's women support lagged behind Kerry, Lieberman, and Gephardt. I told her that I had read a report saying Dean lagged behind Kerry with women before I went to my first Meetup in Worcester, MA, and after arriving at that Meetup I met 9 women and 4 guys. I figured that, like me, these women discounted the poll report and decided to support Dean because he appealed to our anti-war stand and presented himself as a champion of the Democratic base, while the others took us for granted. Most likely, none of us were polled. I know I wasn't.

I had personally met Howard at the July 22, 2003 Portsmouth, NH rally and told my Town Chair that my impression upon meeting was that Dean was definitely masculine but had no machismo, which I attributed to his equal partnership with his wife, who is a doctor also. I attributed Dean's lagging support from women at that time to name recognition and that would change as more women got to know him and his women-friendly policies.

[tedoll78]

21. I posted something about this a while back.

I think Dean's voice may have a factor in this. He has a raspy, tough-guy voice. Combined with the deliberately rolled-up sleeves, he's got an image that works well in terms of marketing himself to voters. This is very, very smart on his part to project such an image.. the tough guy.. since Americans are so allegedly security-conscious now.

I went to Ole Miss 1996-2000 and majored in Political Science (I was actually the president of its Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Association for two very active years). I can't imagine a significant number of my classmates saying nice things about him, but maybe they're all afraid of not finding jobs when they graduate.. who knows? Most of my classmates were white male conservatives ("rednecks" comes to mind). There was a spirited liberal minority consistently present, fighting the good fight - maybe 20 to 30% of the class. If Dean's doing well outside of that liberal minority, this is not to be downplayed. This bodes very well for him in the general election.

One strength that Dean does have is that he's played-up his more conservative positions as part of his electability argument. The gun issue, the balanced budgets.. Should he be nominated, I think these two issues by themselves will make quite a difference in his ability to shuffle to the center for the general election.

[Kahuna]

23. Sorry David. But, not according to this!

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031010.asp


WHO IDENTIFY WITH, OR LEAN TO, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

Sept. 19-21 and Oct. 6-8

TABLE OF COMBINED RESULTS (N=823)

SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES AMONG REGISTERED VOTERS

WHO IDENTIFY WITH, OR LEAN TO, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

Sept. 19-21 and Oct. 6-8

Male
Clark 29
Dean 17
Kerry 10
Lieberman10


Female
Clark 16
Dean 13
Kerry 13
Lieberman13

Race

White
Clark 24
Dean 17
Kerry 14
Lieberman 12

Black
Clark 15
Dean 7
Kerry 6
Lieberman11

Gergen is making up "facts." His desperation is showing when he has to start inventing facts. Wait until he sees this poll. It's going to rock his world.