Could a military coup happen in America?

[Cascadian]

After reading one of the postings today in regards to the growing divide between military officers and others at the Pentagon, I wonder if there would be certain members of the military that would seriously consider a coup against George W Bush. Removing him from office by force and reestablish civilian rule through a special presidential election.

The more I hear from people in the military, the more angry it seems they are getting. I cannot help but think there probably are some high ranking military officers who disagree with what Bush and Rumsfeld are doing.

That posting is linked below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=512720


John

[seoigh]

1. Uh?

You mean another one?

[Cascadian]

3. I am talking about a temporary take over of Executive Branch

In order to rid Bush and bring him up on crimes of treason.

[seoigh]

10. well,

the revolution was not televised

I think Al Gore stepped aside because he knew a recount would turn violent. Maybe it wasn't it coup per se, but it would have turned into one. Gore stepped aside to prevent Bush's brownshirts from taking it the only place they knew where to go.

[Cascadian]

14. I lost respect for Al Gore when he capitulated.

He should have just fought it from the get-go. If it would have been violent, then it would have been nothing the Democrats and liberals would have started. He should have just slugged it out. I think eventually the people would have triumphed.


John

[Walt Starr]

4. The last one was a bloodless coup

I doubt if there would be a military coup. A para-military resistance is becoming more and more likely, though. Last I heard the militias didn't care too much for the USA PATRIOT Act.

[tom_paine]

8. Oh I think the Militias by-and-large will aid the Busheviks

Many have been dreaming about the New World, where they can kill libs and minoritiers without fear of investigation or prosecution.

We aren't there yet, but the trend is obvious.

[havocmom]

27. Don't bet on it. Around here the locals and not happy with the shrub

nor the dogmatic head of the DoJ. Been hearing a lot of talk about voting Dem next time, if there is a next time. Lots of folks here have kin in Iraq and the letters home are not making for warm fuzzy feelings towards the malAdministration. They hate the Patriot Act and most of the flags have been removed from pickup truck antennas.

Am talking Eastern Montana here, solidly repbulican in the past. Thourghly pissed off in the present. These folks know what it is like to have a lot of FBI agents and hundreds of media personell in the area; been ther done that. And I am telling you, they have been falling out of love fast with the chimp ever since the SOTU. Their feelings of distrust/disgust have snowballed a lot in the many months since. They are not buying what the WH and pentagon are trying to sell. They finally got to noticing that the enemy is the big corporations and that the current administration is more in bed with them than any in history.

Overheard the other day: "At least when Clinton screwed, it was just willing ladies that were involved." Believe me, that is a sign of progress!

Edited to add: Hi tom_paine... da momma's been raising some havoc here in Tiny Town! :hi:

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

29. Hardly bloodless.

I'd say the coup resulted in one hell of a lot of bloodshed. Not at first, perhaps, but we all know what's been happening lately...

[Renew Deal]

2. This wouldn't work constitutionally.

The only way it might work is if they killed the pres. VP, and a few others. For there to be anything like a special election, the military would also have to control everything which is too big of a task. Remember, the constitution is the law.

[hang a left]

36. Help me to understand what the constitution states about replacing a

president for malfeasance.

[kalashnikov]

37. what a nice precedent that would set.

and you thought the recall was a slap in the face of democracy.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Sadly, Chavez doesn't have a large enough army

We can dream, though...

[Cascadian]

9. You mean Hugo Chavez?

<n/t>

John

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. Yes. Cesar is in heaven and you know I don't mean Linda!

nt

[RBHam]

6. It would be tough

With 9-11 co-conspirator and Bushie lackey Air Force General Dickie Myers as head of the Joint Chiefs - the rebels would have to be able to somehow bypass his authority.

Plus the BFEE have true believers in almost every important leadership position in the military and the state department.

I think the only way the military would act is if the people rose up, marched on Washington (ala Tianmen Square) and DEMANDED the removal of the current neo-Fascist government.

[tom_paine]

7. The Generals know what we know, what the Busheviks know

And that is, the first to OVERTLY deviate fromthe system will open a Pandora's Box of madness and Civil War. That will make them as reluctant as everyone else to open that box by declaring rebllion in words or actions.

Also, any Generals who aren't Busheviks are being purged as quickly as possible.

Nazis, Soviets, and Busheviks all know that when you prepared to drop the Iron Boot on the Face of their nation, the military has to be controlled by your Party Hacks, be they Nazi, Commie, or Bushevik.

If a Military Coup happens, it won't be until after 2004 (many people recognize that 2004 is probably the last hope for the Ameican Experiment to survive).

But I don't think it will happen, for reasons I stated above.

[Cascadian]

11. Slobodan Milosevic removed generals too

that weren't in lock-step with his drive for Serbian supremecy. I think we can see the same thing here with Bush. They would be forced into retirement and then Bush-ite officers would take over.All this by 2005 I bet.


John

[Taxi Driver]

12. You have the wrong idea.

The only military coup that could happen is if Bush is set to lose or actually loses the election, then the military under the control of people like Rumsfeld and WOLFOWITZ would oust him and establish a military rule to prevent Democrats from taking office.

The military aren't your friends. Don't let the "treason" rhetoric get to your head.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. It's already happened at least once before...

...remember when General Haig became Nixon's chief-of-staff during Nixon's last year in office? Two things happened at the same time:

1) An order went out to all military facilities to disregard the orders of the commander-in-chief;

2) The individual carrying the "football"...the briefcase containing the nuclear codes...no longer was assigned to follow Nixon wherever he went.

[Jose Diablo]

16. Not the military per sey

The CIA will out *Bush and his cronies.

It has already started. By and large it will be bloodless, but very effective.

Get your easy chair, pop corn and beer.
:toast:

[Speck Tater]

17. Coup is not necessary.

The military/CIA/FBI simply discredits the people in power and lets the democratic process elect a replacement. That way it doesn't even look like a coup, and is accepted at face value by the masses.

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. You think that's pathetic? I'm counting on Kim Jung Il!

:think:

[ElementaryPenguin]

18. I certainly hope so!!

As desperate and pathetic as it sounds - I'm now depending on the military establishment or the C.I.A. to take down ChimpCo!!

[leesa]

19. It MAY be the only thing that will save us

Unless we are able to shut down the RW controlled media and the RW controlled fake christian houses.

[lanlady]

20. it almost happened--

--in the first months of JFK's presidency. The brass hated him for not being Eisenhower and plotted against him. Supposedly that's why JFK let himself be dragged into what became the Bay of Pigs fiasco (to appease the restless military guys).

[beanball]

21. Coup in America

never happen,look at the makeup of the military officer corp and the enlisted ranks,the officers are mostly white southerners,most of the enlisted are minorty men and women that follow the orders giving them without a question,the military code put in place after ww2 was enacted to keep the troops in line,I remember my old sgt telling me mine is not to reason why just do or die and that mindset is still in place today."an old soldier that refuse to fade away"

[Silverhair]

22. Have you been getting into Rush's pills?

That is the dumbest idea I have seen. You obviously understand nothing about the military. Let us suppose that what you imagine, a military coup against GWB happened. Now the genie is out of the bottle. What is to stop a counter-coup against a Dem President? And the U S government becomes like some of those 3rd and 4th world countries with a different ruler every week.

Also, the military is overwhelmingly CONSERVATIVE. They love W. I know it is hard for you to imagine it, but they do. (There will be some rare exceptions, of course.) I spent 9 years (4 as an enlisted, 5 as an officer) in the service and well understand the mindset. They will not at all have a coup against W

Also, a coup takes a lot more than a few unhappy generals. Their orders have to be carried out by by the subordinates, and not resisted by the rest of the service. Those subordiantes would quickly call other commands, saying, "General Lefty has gone nuts. He is telling us to take over the White House and capture the President." The other commands would issue counter orders and General Lefty would be sent for mental evaluation and a long rest, and never a shot would be fired. And no reporter would ever be told. Believe me, there wuld be no leaks.

The military hated Clinton, with a passion that went from the higher commands to the lowest members. Yet, they didn't revolt, and obeyed his orders. They did that because that too, is part of the mindset of the service, and I am glad that it is.

[Cascadian]

24. Do you know anybody in the military?

If you talk to anybody who have a remote connection with the military you will find the tide is starting to turn. Many of those young men and women in Iraq are demoralized, hungry, dirty, and a target 24 hours a day. Another part of the current anger in the military is the fact that Bush is cutting all of the military and veteran's benefits. If there are anyone in the military who cannot see what Bush is really doing then they are dilusional.

What makes you think it's a bad idea? My comments are hypothetical and should not be taken to heart. Your insults don't help any either.

John

[Silverhair]

26. Do you really want a coup?

Think about what you are saying. Throw out the constitution and be ruled by the Junta of the week? I would personally take up arms at my advanced age to prevent that.

[Cascadian]

28. I never said that.

You are taking me out of context. All I am saying is to have a forceful removal of Bush from office by the military and call a special election for a replacement for Bush. Not some South American style junta. You totally missed the point.

John

[Silverhair]

30. No I didn't miss your point.

A forceful removal of the President by the military is a junta. That is the definiation of one. Since the constitution does not provide for it, then it would be outside the constititution. Your "special election" would also be outside the constitution. I suppose that you woud have the junta "supervise" the voting to make sure your candidate won? Once the constitution is thrown away, and that is exactly what that would be, you are in uncharted waters. The rule would be by the junta, and juntas have a terrible record of turning power back over to civilians. The junta would have absolute power, and that tends to corrupt - big time. Even if they did, what makes you think it would be YOUR civilians they would turn it over to? The junta may decide that G Gordon Liddy is the man of the hour.

Even if the junta were promising to do everything I though needed doing, and were promising to step down after new elections, I would still fight for the old constitution and the rule of law, however imperfect.

[Cascadian]

33. Once again....you missed it.

My view was simply hypothetical. If you think that I was advocating the idea, you jump to conclusions too much. My statement was a "what if..." instead advocating this. Knee jerk reactions are so unbecoming. Junta or no junta.

John

[Silverhair]

46. What if a patient took cyanide to stop a headache?

In your original post you asked if there might be "certain members" who would consider it. The rest of your post sounds hopeful that such a thing might occur. This is based on the idea that there is some dissatifaction in the military with GWB.

During the Vietnam war, probably before your time, the troops were REALLY disgruntled, and the officer corp was REALLY unhappy. I was in the service then and LBJ was HATED. (Yes, I am a Vietnam Veteran.) No coup happened. We took stupid orders and died, but didn't revolt. We understood that a military revolt would destroy America, not save it.

Stripped down here are the elements of your fantasy:

Military revolts.
Military holds new "free" elections, but makes sure that an uberliberal wins. (Remember GWB has a greater than 50% approval rating and he isn't campaigning.)
Military goes back to it's former status.

Pipe dreams. Once the junta happens, everything comes apart.

The reason the each side tolerates a president of the other side is that we know in a few years we will get a chance to PEACEFULLY and ORDERLY replace a jerk. So the right tolerated LBJ, Carter, and Clinton. The left tolerated Nixon (He was WAAAAY worse.)Ford, Reagan, Bush.1 and now tolerates Bush.2. In Nov 2004 there will be an chance to replace him. If that fails, then in 2008 he will be gone anyway, without destroying America with a coup.

Your "What if" is like a doctor asking, "What if a patient took cyanide to stop headache pain?"

[Capt_Nemo]

49. Sometimes it happens

there are historical precedents for:

"Military revolts.
Military holds new "free" elections, but makes sure that an uberliberal wins. (Remember GWB has a greater than 50% approval rating and he isn't campaigning.)
Military goes back to it's former status."

see my post on this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=513004#516328

What is questionable is if the dominant culture in the US military
would alow for that scenario to play out again

[Cascadian]

56. Remember Portugal 1974.

That is a great example of the military giving back power to the people. Look at the posts about it....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=513004#516328


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=513004#518141


It is not entirely impossible. But I think you will find in the future, the more the Republicans get power, the more of a need for the armed forces to "defend the constitution" is going to grow particularly if the situation in Iraq gets worse or if Bush goes off on another adventurism somewhere like Iraq or Syria. Not to mention if the economy continues to go South.

John

[Silverhair]

57. Bad example

Portugal was a coup against a genuine military dictatorship. The coup you fantasize about would be against a constitutional democracy. It would destroy the constitution, not preserve it.

[kalashnikov]

38. the enlisted may be leaning against the pres.

but the officer corp has traditionally and still supports the pres. in overwhelming numbers. They may not like his particular policies but the idea behind the soldier is that he takes orders and carries them out even if he will die doing so. He does not give orders. And he definitely does not swear to uphold the constitution and then overturn it.

[Clete]

25. Historically has a military coup ever worked for anyone?

I would rather see the workers of America, and they are the majority, go on various forms of slow downs, strikes, sick outs and whatever it takes to get the corporate turkeys to take notice that the country doesn't function without its belly.

In order to do this workers have to form clubs, guilds and unions to unite the workers to act as a family. Remember that the chief is only one person and he only exists because the rest of the tribe lets him.

[Capt_Nemo]

44. Yes, Portugal 25 April 1974

Most of the military was tired of being bogged down in unwinnable
colonial wars and with a coup started the April Revolution. (does
that sound familiar?)

That day it was the people who followed the military, who became
known as the "April Captains".

With no blood 48 (!) years of fascist rule were ended.

I think in the USA the military have the duty to defend the
Constitution. If there is still anyone honourable in the US military
that does not bow down to the military industrial complex then I
think it is their DUTY to work to overthrow anybody who tries to
destroy the Constitution.

[Cascadian]

51. A touching symbol of the 1974 coup.

I had to share this picture with everybody. It became the symbol of the April 1974 Portuguese coup.





I think it could just as easily be a symbol of our any future movement against the Bush regime.



John

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I Prefer To Work To Elect

center left folks to elected offices...

I like our democratic republic... It's some of the leaders I can do without....

[Clete]

55. No kidding, we do have the criminal

element who are in power now. They may not allow themselves to be elected out of office so easily.

[JanMichael]

31. It sucks. Unless of course they accept some good principles.

The Cooperative Commonwealth is just a coup away...

[kalashnikov]

40. everybody has their own idea of good

principles. Thats why if you advocate use of force to overturn the pres. you are opening the door for a lot of chaos.

[Capn Sunshine]

32. That would suck. I'd find myself defending Bush.

No WAY in hell would I allow a military coup to go forward against a sitting president. No matter how bad that president was. It just can NEVER happen. Damn that would suck. Me defending the bane of our existence.

[Clete]

34. I hope you are speaking about a legally elected sitting

President.

[Cascadian]

35. Once again....

This was a hypothetical question. I am in no way supportive of a coup.

Please, please, please believe me!

John

[Capn Sunshine]

54. surely.

so I guess that exempts the military from a really really really bad precedent in this one case?

[kalashnikov]

39. if you advocate overturning the constitution to

protect people than arent you basically supporting the principle behind the Patriot Act? Wait till the election and do things the right way, once you ignore the democratic process you are no better than "them."

[Imajika]

41. Pure fantasy

Oy...not another military coup against Bush thread.

Understand that the military is overwhelmingly in the Republican camp. The vast majority of military service people are far more conservative than the general public. There will be no military coup against Bush. It just ain't gonna happen.

You can read that some military people are not happy about Iraq or fantasize about a few tidbits of ancedotal evidence you hear about disgrunted service people, but your just dreaming if you think the military establishment would launch a coup against almost any Republican President - especially this one.

Your post tells me you know nothing about the military at large. If any coup ever happened in America, it would be against a left of center President - NOT a right of center one.

Imajika

[Cascadian]

42. This is the last time I am going to say this.....

I.....do......not ......adovcate......a......coup. It was a hypothetical question, for God's sake!!! END OF DISCUSSION!!! I am getting sick of repeating myself!

:grr:

John

[LunaC]

43. I once asked the same question

and two former military officers indicated (moreorless) that following orders and loyalty to the CIC was far too ingrained into a solderier's psyche for a coup/junta to occur. If a revolt were to happen, it likely won't originate from within the Armed Forces.

[Capt_Nemo]

45. This is a tricky issue

But there are things that posters on this thread seem to be
overlooking:

1. The military has the duty to defend the Constitution. In the
hypothesis the White House was working to undermine it, not only
a coup would not be unconstitutional, but would be the duty of
the military.

2. There are examples of military coups that resulted in the
liberation of the people and the instauration of democracy. See my
post above:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=513004#516328

[Q]

47. The president* is also supposed to 'protect the Constitution'...

...so that kind of blows your argument away about duty.

- By definition...there already WAS a coup in America in the year 2000. Many people seem to have the mistaken impression that the military must be involved in a coup...but that's not the case. All that is necessary is that certain 'levers' of government are usurped and everything else will follow.

[Capt_Nemo]

48. I must disagree Q

Of course it is the WH job to defend the Constitution, but if it turns
out it is using its power to destroy it the WH looses its legitimacy
since it´s actions are contrary to the very job they were elected.
In fact it would be criminal behaviour.

Since the military share also the responsability to protect the
constitution they would be obliged to do anyting to protect it
against any assault by anybody.

If it was the other way round I think the president would have the
duty to call on the people to stand against the military, since
these would be engaging in actions contrary to their stated mission.

[Cascadian]

50. Yes. Portugal is a great example!

For many years, Portugal was under the iron fist of fascist Antonio Salazar. Salazar died in 1970 and his sucessor tried to continue authoritarian rule but was not as strong as Salazar with the Portuguese growing desire for greater freedoms, was ousted by a group of progressive-minded military officers in 1974. On that day, all restrictions to freedom were abolished. They begun the first free elections in many years in 1975 and Portugal has been democratic ever since. So there are possibilities.


John

[saskatoon]

52. Coup

I have been to so many places re conspiracy theories that I can't recall the one I would love to point to but it laid out a fairly well reasoned theory that that was just what happened re 911