Going to Cuba? You could be going to jail!

[Cascadian]

The futile b.s. of an embargo continues and may continue for another 40 years.

Bush now wants to crack on down on Americans who travel to Cuba and tighten the restrictions on trade. An idea who's time long past. It is a futile and failed policy.

Oh man! Give it up! It does not work. Bush is obviously only doing this to shore up support for his election campaign in 2004 among the Miami Cubans.

While we tighten the reigns on Americans who want to communicate and trade with the Cubans, we still continue to trade with China and Vietnam. Double standards abounds!


John

[MuseRider]

1. I guess my son

won't be going there on his education trip again. He went last summer and really wants to go back. This is so stupid.

[ReadTomPaine]

2. Does this include Cuban Americans? Or do they get a pass again?

[Osolomia]

3. TRAVEL BAN ON CUBA TIGHTENED: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW

On March 24, 2003, the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) announced amended regulations on travel to Cuba from the U.S. Though OFAC accepted comments on the regulations until May 23, 2003, there is no formal review process and the regulations go into effect with no real congressional oversight.

People to people travel category eliminated
The new regulations eliminate non-degree related educational travel to Cuba: the 2nd largest license category of travelers, which combined non-credit educational activities with people-to-people contacts. People-to-people travel was licensed by the previous administration, with the belief that such contacts between the two nations would promote American democratic ideals; this travel policy toward Cuba was modeled after the successful exchanges that took place between the former Soviet Bloc and the United States years ago.

Specifically, the new regulations abolish section 515.565 (b)(2) of OFAC’s Cuban Assets and Control Regulations. Effective March 23rd, “…specific licenses will no longer be granted to sponsor people-to-people educational exchanges to take individuals under their auspices on educational trips to Cuba unrelated to academic coursework.” (OFAC Report for Congress, updated April 22, 2003) The new OFAC regulations will be a major setback for universities, non-profit orgs, professional associations, museums, religious groups, American businesses, continuing education programs, etc.

Cuban American restrictions eased

The new regulations eased restrictions on the largest category of travelers: Cuban Americans. The definition of a close relative was broadened and the amount of cash remittances a Cuban American may carry to Cuba rose to from $300 to $3,000. The per diem spending limit for Cuban Americans was lifted entirely. Effectively, OFAC has eased conditions under which Cuban-Americans may travel and has narrowed them for most others. This leniency arises from the fact that a majority of Cuban Americans now support lifting the travel ban. Still, many Cuban Americans complain that getting permission for more than one visit--even in extreme cases like death in the family--is too cumbersome and cruel; often these visitors return home illegally, through third countries.

More...
http://ciponline.org/cuba/travel/travelregsmemo_2003.htm

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Can you say

"pander to a key Republican constituency in Florida"?

[Osolomia]

5. Can you show me a leading 2004 Dem presidential candidate

who's not willing to restrict your freedom to travel for the sake of pandering to the extremist minority vote in Florida themselves?

If so many Dems are so content to be treated like second class citizens by their own government that they continue to make up such excuses then I guess y'all get the travel ban enforced by Homeland Security that you deserve and have no one else to blame for such silent complicity with the Bushistas and Batistianos.

[Mika]

16. Wes Clark

Wes Clark has expressed that the travel ban on Americans is the wrong approach to Cuba.


Point of concern; I have heard that Wes Clark has hired many of Bob Graham's ex campaign staffers, so I don't know if has position will change (as Bob Graham is a prime campaign panderer to the intransigent wingnut Miamicubans).

[Mairead]

23. Yes, Dennis Kucinich

(If you want a 'leading' candidate who supports this, support Dennis)

END THE EMBARGO ON CUBA

Our policy toward Cuba has failed. More than four decades of a unilateral embargo and persistently hostile and aggressive rhetoric and actions from successive administrations have created only misery for the Cuban people and have hurt, not helped, U.S. interests at large.

Common sense dictates that we pursue a policy of normalizing relations with Cuba. A Kucinich Administration will work for repeal of the Helms-Burton Act and the immediate lifting of the trade embargo.

A Kucinich Administration will take several steps to restoring a more humane and effective policy toward this important neighbor:

1. Support normal bilateral trade with Cuba. Farm communities throughout the U.S. are being denied a natural market in Cuba, and Americans are being denied products from Cuba.

2. Restore Americans' freedom to travel to Cuba. Our government's travel ban violates the Constitutionally- guaranteed freedom of movement.

3. Work to repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act, which has encouraged smuggling and put lives at risk -- and has reinforced arbitrary and unequal immigration policies.

4. Support increased national security cooperation with Cuba.

[JasonBerry]

32. Absolutely Right

As with so many issues, Dennis Kucinich is the only choice for REAL change.

[Mairead]

34. Right on! "As with so many issues, Dennis Kucinich is the only choice"

If we don't come to our senses and elect him, all we will get is rhetoric and twiddling, maybe a few tweaks if we're lucky.

[Mika]

18. Lydia, why do Fla Dems pander to them then?

When W* was down in Miami earlier this year pandering to the "exiles", with convicted terrorists like Orlando Bosch on stage, I saw Bob Graham, Peter Deutsch, and Bob Wexler (all Dems) on stage saluting and applauding W* when he was talkin tough and gitten tough and announcing crackdowns on Americans, reducing US/Cuba trade, and stepped up hostilities against Cuba to the hand picked crowd of "exiles".

This pandering by Dem party is one of the major problems in the way of rational policies regarding US relations with Cuba.


from www.opensecrets.org

[Brian Sweat]

45. This is just feel good politics. It makes is impossible for

a handful of American with no Cuban relatives who might want to travel to Cuba to do so, but it allows the thousands of Cuban-Americans who want to visit their relatives to do so. The funny thing is that the people who want this embargo are the same ones who insist on an exemption for themselves and are the same ones who make it completely useless.

[Mika]

14. Cuban-Americans can go. We Americans are 2nd class citizens in the US

Even most of the Dem presidential candidates support this injustice set upon Americans.

[American Renaissance]

6. Perfectly Legal,

There is a very simple and perfectly legal way for Americans to visit Cuba.

Book an all inclusive package with a Canadian tour company, pay for the package in Canada with Canadian dollars and away you go.

My Uncle and his family have done this several times already, and Cuban customs will offer not to entry stamp your passport.

Your not breaking ANY law, you are spending your money in Canada - not Cuba.

[Osolomia]

7. Dream on!

You better check that! It used to be that the US government turned a blind eye to Americans traveling to Cuba via a third country but not Bush, he specifically stated today that Homeland Security agents in foreign airports will be cracking down on the kind of trips you mention. It is not legal for a US citizen or resident to travel to Cuba without a license from Washington period no matter how you do it.

[Pontus]

11. Ha ha, my wife is not a US citizen so...

I can travel to Cuba anytime I want -- as long as she pays the bills on her credit card. We had thought about going this winter, but decided the baby is too young for a 3rd. World trip.

[Osolomia]

12. Not quite, if you are on US soil then you're subject to US law

doesn't matter what your citizenship is, the travel ban applies to residents and landed immigrants and visitors too. The only exceptions are the Cuban-American "exiles" who supposedly fled for their lives yet freely travel back and forth.

[Osolomia]

9. Straight from the horse's mouth: CUBA TRAVEL ADVISORY

WARNING: TOUR PACKAGES FOR SCUBA DIVING,
BICYCLING, HUNTING, FISHING, HIKING OR
OTHER TOURIST TRAVEL IN CUBA ARE ILLEGAL

It has come to the attention of the Office of Foreign Assets
Control (“OFAC”) that certain specialty tours to Cuba that are
offered by travel agencies in third countries are marketed to
U.S travelers as being in compliance with the prohibitions of
the U.S. embargo against Cuba. These trips are usually designed
for individuals with an interest in outdoor activities, such as
scuba diving, bicycling, hunting or fishing. The sales material
often maintains that because the traveler prepays the third
country travel agency for expenses that otherwise would be paid
by the traveler while within Cuba, such as hotels, meals, ground
transportation, equipment rental and services, etc., this type
of trip is in compliance with the applicable U.S. regulations on
travel-related transactions involving Cuba that apply to persons
subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

This advisory is to alert U.S. travelers who participate in such
trips that engaging in prepaid arrangements for travel
expenditures otherwise prohibited by the Cuba Assets Control
Regulations, 31 CFR Part 515 (the “Regulations”), will expose
travelers to the possibility of civil monetary penalties from
OFAC. marked LEGAL to see a copy of the Regulations.]

A Cuban vacation package that is prepaid by U.S travelers
through a travel agency located in a third country does not
qualify as “fully-hosted” travel as described in the
Regulations. This is true regardless of the type of currency
that is used to purchase the package tour. This type of trip is
simply an “all-inclusive” vacation package similar to ones
available at most resort and vacation destinations anywhere in
the world. The Regulations prohibit all transactions relating
to travel-related tourist transactions in Cuba including
prepayment in third countries for Cuba-related expenses.

http://www.treas.gov/offices/eotffc/ofac/sanctions/cubatrav.pdf

[Osolomia]

28. Traveling to Cuba: Where There is a Will, There is a Way

CounterPunch
Weekend Edition
October 11 / 13, 2003

Traveling to Cuba
Where There is a Will, There is a Way
By NELSON P. VALDES

Do you want to travel to Cuba but believe you are not allowed by the U.S. government? Well, do not despair!

The official position of the United States government is that you CAN travel to the island but you cannot spend any money while you are there.

... You see, US law says that your money, up to $1200 annually, can travel to the island but you cannot accompany it. Your money has to travel unaccompanied - by itself - through a lonely financial wire. You can go to the island as well but without the security of money in your pocket. Of course, very few people dare to arrive to another country with not a single cent on them.

What could you do then?

First, you need to separate yourself from your money. You could donate up to $1200 per year to a Cuban family in the island. Getting in touch with a Cuban family should not be difficult. Then you could arrange to send the family $1200. Western Union is set up to do it, although they are somewhat expensive. If you find a family and you decide to send the money, then you might need to coordinate with the Cuban family so that they agree to send you a letter inviting you to Cuba. They could send a copy of the invitation to the US Interests Section in Havana. Once you work out the dates. Then your are almost there. It would be useful to send a copy of the letter of invitation, stating that you will be the "host of a Cuban family" to the Office of Foreign Assets Control at the Treasury Department.

Second, since you are going to be "fully hosted" by a Cuban family you cannot fly to Cuba directly from the US.. Why not? Because rightwing Cuban exiles came up with that idea, and the US Treasury enforces it. However, you can fly to Miami and from there to the Bahamas and then to Cuba. There are other routes and the Internet can provide alternative routes.

... ... Third, you should remember that the US government assumes that you will try to sneak some money in your way to Cuba. In other words, the US Treasury assumes that you are guilty of spending dollars; so you have to prove your innocence. So it would be useful for you to get a notary public before you depart from Cuba so that you will have proof that you had absolutely not a single penny when you went to the island. The Western Union wire that you sent to the Cuban family would be useful to prove that the Cubans that got the money from you had the means to support you. And they also had the incentive to have you over in Cuba, all expenses paid. After all, they expect you to send them more money the following year.

More...
http://www.counterpunch.org/valdes10112003.html

[Bozita]

8. Does Cuba hate us for our freedom too?

[Osolomia]

10. Cuba Travel 101 for those who want to know

this will bring you up to date on what's happening here in a hurry:

Congressional
Cuba: U.S. Restrictions on Travel and
Legislative Initiatives
Updated April 22, 2003
Mark P. Sullivan
Specialist in Latin American Affairs
Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/20244.pdf

Last month the House voted 227-188 to cut funding for OFAC enforcement of the travel ban in effect lifting it. A bipartisan majority in the Senate is expected to vote on its version any week now but Bush has threatened to veto it.

[Osolomia]

13. There's no excuse for DUhers ignorance of what's happening here

No excuse whatsover for choosing to ignore what Bush is doing right under our noses in out own hemisphere. Dem hyppocrisy reeks to high holy on this one.

[screaming_meme]

15. I should have the freedom to see an alternative to capitalism

Racism, democracy, and everything that makes life in the United States a living hell.

[Osolomia]

17. Guess you didn't get the memo not to post on Cuba threads

in case someone recognizes DUers true colors!

[screaming_meme]

19. What are you talking about?

"true colors?" What are you getting at?

[Osolomia]

20. See any other DUers protesting Bush's crackdown on travel?

Other than the very few who've been posting news articles about US policy for years, Cuba is still very much a taboo subject around here and some have been known to receive messages telling them not to post on Cuba threads because of the 'pro-leftist' image such reports supposedly presents. Just watch, you'll see!

[Osolomia]

21. What, no rebuttal?

There never is. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!

[Cascadian]

22. This should not be a pro-left vs. pro-right issue.

Let's just cut to the chase. The Cuban embargo is a foriegn policy failure. The Europeans, Canadians, and Japanese already do some trade and tourism with them. What is hypocritical is that the US government allows Cuban-Americans to travel there without any real difficulty. It is a very flawed policy and must be thrown out. It only makes America look bad in the eyes of average Cubans and Castro is not hurting from it.


John

[dutchdemocrat]

24. 50,000 hotel rooms in the country

And the whole tourism product is being developed by Europe and Canada by large. The US is just losing out. Tough luck and a backwards policy. I suspect Dubya is using this as a battering ram again Chavez in Venezuela and Lula in Brazil as they have both been spotted in Cuba hugging Castro.

[Osolomia]

30. If the Democratic Party is still incapable of reconciling relations

with our own neighbors in 2004 then what makes the Dems any better than the 53 Republicans who voted for American-Americans' freedom to travel to Cuba last month despite Bush's threatened veto?

What is hypocritical is the Dems silent complicity with Bush policy against Cuba.

[Ardee]

26. I have my doubts

Surely you can back up that comment re receiving messages from the administrators here not to post on any particular thread....I have been posting here for a while and find a diverse spectrum of beliefs with very little in the way of control from Skinner, Elad or Earl other than that concerned with civility and the occassional brouhaha over heavy critique of democratic candidates .........

[Mika]

27. PMs not from administrators

"Surely you can back up that comment re receiving messages from the administrators here not to post on any particular thread"

Messages are not from admin.




"I have been posting here for a while and find a diverse spectrum of beliefs with very little in the way of control from Skinner, Elad or Earl other than that concerned with civility and the occassional brouhaha over heavy critique of democratic candidates"


Skinner, Elad and Earl are among the best admins. on any forum I've seen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Osolomia]

33. Since none of the usual suspects are around at all

apparently admin has finally dealt with that campaign for now although evidently the damage has been done.

[Osolomia]

31. Whow! If even you can so boldly misinterpret what I said

then it kind of proves my point that there's something awfully screwy with the popular status quo around here when it comes to US-Cuba policy. What a shame!

[Cascadian]

42. Don't forget a growing class system

the middle class is erroding very fast. In about 5 years there may not be a middle class anymore. It will all be two-tier and those at the bottom will stay at the bottom and damn all who attempt to get to the top tier.

John

[dutchdemocrat]

25. Like your moniker

Northern California to Alaska... when the shit hits the fan. Cascadia is the answer. Vancouverites have more in common with Washington and Oregon than they do with Ontario.

[Cascadian]

49. Just encouraging the name of our region.

Sure sounds a hell of a lot better than just the "Pacific Northwest" doesn't it?





John

[HEyHEY]

29. point out the lyrics to bush

" the land of the FREE (?)"

[LTR]

35. Drop the embargo!

I mean, how long has this embargo been in place? And how long has Castro been in power? Going on half a century!?!?!

Obviously, the current approach is definitely not working. It's not getting the result (Castro's ouster) that the US government wants.

My idea, and this may seem a bit conservative to all of you: Totally open up Cuba to any US interests that desire to do business there. Kill 'em with capitalism. Build a hundred McDonalds, a Starbucks on every corner. Wal-Mart!!! Blast the Cuban airwaves with Britney Spears.

On second thought, Britney would be kind of cruel. It could work, though.

But you all get the idea, right? Silly, but possibly effective. It's time for the federal government to think outside the proverbial box for once.

I'd hate to see the BFEE idea, which I imagine would be some sort of military invasion. Very bad idea.

[Mika]

36. Maybe we Dems should try thinking outside the proverbial box

"And how long has Castro been in power?"


Since 1976.

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has won that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books






" Build a hundred McDonalds, a Starbucks on every corner. Wal-Mart!!! Blast the Cuban airwaves with Britney Spears. "


With what money would Cubans purchase all those products? Before your idea could even be seriously entertained there has to be a larger economy in Cuba. That is why the "insane pro Cuba crowd" here on DU have been espousing a dropping of the US gov travel ban on Americans. American dollars represent the largest tourism income for all of the people in the Caribbean islands.


McD's, Starbucks, and Wal-Mart would have to sign joint venture contracts with the Cuban government in order to build stores., plus, the US's Helms-Burton law prevents businesses that trade with Cuba from doing biz in the USA.

BTW, Do you really think that Cubans would allow McD's, Starbucks, and Wal-Mart to build on every corner? Cuba isn't Miami. There are zoning laws there y'know.


Cubans can listen to Britney Spears if they want to, because Cubans can tune in radio stations from all over S Florida, from the Bahamas and other Caribbean radio stations.

[LTR]

37. Much of what I posted was tongue-in-cheek

I'd hate to wish Starbucks on anyone. But these are basic examples for what I feel could really turn the tide in Cuba. If the US government really wants to get rid of Castro (which is all they really want anywy), then this is an idea. I don't like the idea of starving innocent Cubans.

Good insight in your post about the situation in Cuba. I liked the background info of http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy . The US is still stuck in the Cold War regarding Castro. Just like Iraq, they just want to topple a dictator with facial hair.

I know Castro has been de facto dictator of Cuba since New Year's Day, 1959. Doesn't matter that he's won every election since.

Hey, Saddam Hussein has won every election since the 1980s. Was he really that popular? Dictatorships tend to have funny elections and results. A bit tainted.

And I do advocate lifting the travel ban and boosting the Cuban economy. The worst-case scenario (and this is what the US government fears) is that a boost in the Cuban economy will make Castro look good.

Plus, the influx of US business would create jobs, therefore creating employees with actual income. This is the 'Henry Ford aproach', where Ford paid his employees generously so they could afford to buy his cars.

On problem with establishing US businesses in Cuba would be that Castro could do what he did after the revolution, where he confiscated US property and kicked Americans off the island. Language in any agreement (and one that could not be broken) would help. I assume graft is common in Cuba, so I doubt zoning laws would be a factor. And the Helms-Burton law could be changed, although the US government would not jump through hoops to do it.

I'd kinda hate to see Cuba turned into a bland, corporate, suburban paradise. Cuba is like a place suspended in time, untainted by the crap that surrounds us (look at Prague after the collapse of Communism). But would this kind of thinking help to open up Cuba? It's obvious the current system is not working.

I do think that Cuba will change on its own eventually. Castro's not getting any younger, and with the sad state of their economy, and the limited international trading partners, they will gradually change down the road. With the human rights abuses of Fidel Castro, I hope something happens soon.

[Mika]

38. I doubt that Cuba will turn into a bland, corporate, suburban paradise

{edit: spelling correction of 'eminent domain'}


"I know Castro has been de facto dictator of Cuba since New Year's Day, 1959. Doesn't matter that he's won every election since."


What an insult to the Cuban people. After Cubans so capably threw out the US backed bloodsoaked Batista dictatorship do you really think that the Cuban people would tolerate a de facto dictator for forty years? This is just simply ridiculous.

I can tell that you have never been to Cuba, and that you are possibly unaware of how parliamentary democracies work. Ricardo Alarcon is the president of the Cuban national assembly (parliament), that is where the real power is in Cuba now.

Like it or not, President Castro has been elected president of Cuba since 1976 by the elected Cuban parliament .



"On problem with establishing US businesses in Cuba would be that Castro could do what he did after the revolution, where he confiscated US property and kicked Americans off the island."


If this was such a concern, how do you explain the billions of dollars that non US businesses have poured into Cuba in joint ventures with the government?

The Cuban revolutionary interim government did nationalize industry, including American owned businesses. Prior to the revolution over 95% of Cuban businesses were foreign owned. Now, 100% of foreign investments are joint ventures with the Cuban government.

Cuba has settled expropriation claims in a UN sanctioned arbitration court with all claimants around the world except with America. It is not widely known that it is US law that prevents Americans and American residents (like Cuban "exiles") from settling with the government of Cuba via the Trading with The Enemy act. Cuba wants to settle all claims, but the US government prevents it.. that way the anti Cuba factions in the USA can fool uninformed Americans into concluding that Cuba stole property and hasn't settled claims, while in actuality Cuba used eminent domain laws and has settled with everyone except America (by US law).


You have a lot to learn on this issue.. keep checking the 'Cuba threads' here on DU, because there are a few of us DUers who do know a great deal about Cuba and the wonderful people of the island.

:hi:

[Osolomia]

39. Nice try but do you realize how brainwashed you are?

I rather doubt that you would swallow propaganda about other countries without checking the facts first so why don’t you ever question the US government’s claims about Cuba?

For example, why do you want to overthrow Castro? What ‘human rights abuses’ are you talking about? Fact of the matter is there is nothing that holds water for two seconds that is why Bush deliberately provoked a crackdown on “dissidents” so that he’d have some excuse to justify keeping you trade and travel banned for many more years to come while allowing the Batistiano “exiles” to do whatever the hell they want in Cuba with the silent complicity of the Dems.

The hypocritical reaction of Dems to Bush’s moves on Cuba makes me puke and the party better smarten up fast on this and other issues if they expect to get my support, that much is that simple for sure.

There’s absolutely no excuse whatsoever for DUers to be ignorant of what has been obvious to everyone else on the planet for over a decade now:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/new-for-you/top-sellers/-/books/16893/ref=br_b_ts_mor/102-5096948-7148142

[LTR]

40. Swallowing propaganda?

I never said I advocated overthrowing Castro. In fact, I abhor the likely Bush approach, which would be military invasion. I stated such in a previous post. Go read it.

All I'm doing is offering my suggestion for the US government, since they seem so gung-ho about removing castro.

I realize that Castro, like Saddam, is really a non-factor for US policy. Castro hasn't been a threatening presense to us in decades, and most likely never will be.

IMO, our government should work on rights abuses and other problems domestically before even thinking about invading another country. The same goes for Iraq, an invasion that I was 100% against (and have stated so here). But Castro has been documented as ordering the assassinations of dissidents and people who are and were threats to the Cuban government.

If that sounds like good policy to you, then that's your prerogative. I'm not going to participate in a flame war to support your "I'm intelligent - you're ignorant' posturing.

[Osolomia]

41. What a load of crock!

You want to drop the embargo and travel ban for the same reason that Bush wants to keep it otherwise you would be thinking of ways to reconcile relations with Cuba instead of fantasizing like this:

“Obviously, the current approach is definitely not working. It's not getting the result (Castro's ouster) that the US government wants. My idea, and this may seem a bit conservative to all of you: Totally open up Cuba to any US interests that desire to do business there. Kill 'em with capitalism. Build a hundred McDonalds, a Starbucks on every corner. Wal-Mart!!! Blast the Cuban airwaves with Britney Spears.”

“I'd hate to wish Starbucks on anyone. But these are basic examples for what I feel could really turn the tide in Cuba. If the US government really wants to get rid of Castro (which is all they really want anywy), then this is an idea. I don't like the idea of starving innocent Cubans.”

“I'd kinda hate to see Cuba turned into a bland, corporate, suburban paradise. Cuba is like a place suspended in time, untainted by the crap that surrounds us (look at Prague after the collapse of Communism). But would this kind of thinking help to open up Cuba? It's obvious the current system is not working.”

“I do think that Cuba will change on its own eventually. Castro's not getting any younger, and with the sad state of their economy, and the limited international trading partners, they will gradually change down the road. With the human rights abuses of Fidel Castro, I hope something happens soon.”

“But Castro has been documented as ordering the assassinations of dissidents and people who are and were threats to the Cuban government.”

---

Oh really now, do you have a single iota of a shred of evidence of Castro ”ordering the assassinations of dissidents”?

No of course you don't because there isn't any! You are spewing blatant US government lies and bullshit and propaganda whether you realize it or not and there’s no excuse whatsoever for DUhers ignorant complicity with Bush policy imho.

[LTR]

43. What the hell is your point, anyway?

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:LPD2-LwdudYJ:www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0629babbitt0629.html+castro+suppress+opponents&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

And I even highlighted some words for you, so you can get a clearer picture.

What kind of propaganda are YOU buying into?

And if you're so critical of DU, then why are you here?

I think it's high time you get off your high horse and understand alternate opinions. I'm not 100% correct and neither are you. Deal with it.

[Osolomia]

44. Still no sign of the "assassinations" that you base your opinion on!

I'm not about to support "alternate opinions" that are based on blatant lies and bullshit and therein lies the problem with the Dems that you have so aptly illustrated.

[Osolomia]

46. Still no evidence from DUers, and it’s not the first time

If Bush can get away with such lies and bullshit about Cuba already imagine what he’s going to get away with in the next year and a half at this rate, especially now that he’s got Homeland Security enforcing his tightened travel ban against American-Americans and Dems are still sound asleep at the wheel wallowing in their Cold War fantasies and ignoring the reality that’s even been posted on DU’s Latest Breaking News forum on a daily basis for a few years now.

Naw, there’s no evidence of silent complicity of the Dems going on here is there!

[Mika]

47. The author of RatTerrier's link

http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/biographies/babbitt.html

'nuff said.

[Deja Q]

48. Didn't Unkie Norm (Coleman) go to Cuba recently, in the name of trying to

HELP?!