Why the continued B.S. that this is a "Christian" nation?

[devilgrrl]

While listening to OhReally make an ass out of himself on 'Fresh Air' the other day. He brought up that this country was founded on 'Judeo-Christian' values, basically repeating what Pat Robertson constantly bleets out. Now, if I' remember correctly, guys like Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson didn't think much of religion in general and seemed to find fundamentalism rather dangerous.

What's really the deal with all this? And if it is a bunch of crap, why do we allow it to continue?

Would love to hear what everyone thinks.

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Believing anything else...

...would shatter their world view beyond repairing. You can't blame them for repeating teh same falacies adn flawed logic. Self preservation does that for you.

However, they really need to read this.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[arcane1]

beat me to it

:toast:

[DarkPhenyx]

5. Sorry Arcane

ever since I had this pointed out to me I keep it handy for just search emergencies.

[PassingFair]

10. Here's one of my

..personal favs:

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever..."

–Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, 1786

You ought not to be sentenced to AA for rehab....

[Lars39]

It would take me a bit to find it,

but some guy was sentenced to AA and sued and won. There are alternatives out there.

[arcane1]

4. beat me to it

:toast:

[Wwagsthedog]

7. DP, Thanks for this post

The SJG site is new to me and will provide lots of interesting reading.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. "We" don't allow it to continue...

"they" keep bringing it up like it's a fact.

Can't stop 'em from yakking about it.

[mhr]

3. Fundamentalist World View Requires This Fiction

eom

[ozone_man]

6. And take god off our money.

That's pretty offensive.

[kalashnikov]

8. Its laws were based on judeo-christian

values, just like the rest of the western world. That doesnt preclude tolerance of other religions it just means that one happens to be dominant and our value system is naturally based upon it. Just because O'reilly says this does not mean he is a religious fundamentalist (though other stuff he says does).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. A myth.

Some of our laws do have a genesis from 'common law'. However, the term 'Judeo-Christian values' does not apply. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin -- were all freethinkers, not doctrinaire religious men.

[kalashnikov]

13. common law is ultimately based upon those values.

Its not based on Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, animism or anything else. Though they all have commonalities they also have certain values that differ. Your right that most of our laws are based upon Locke's ideals of a social contract, however they are there in part to protect our value system which can only be described as Judeo-Christian. Sure we pick and choose from those religions and we justify our laws rationally, nonetheless they were all originally based upon the christian value system. If they were not then do you think the deeply religious populace in the late 1700's would have accepted them?

[Cloud]

21. True

They were deists. Which means they believed in god but believe god set the world in motion through physics.

So basically science is greater than god. We know that to be true. Lightning is electricity which Ben Franklin proved with his kite experiment, not some angry god throwing thunderbolts down at us.

To me religion looses all scientific credibility with the whole sun goes around the earth joke.

People (right-wingers) say America was founded on religious freedom for all. That is only partly true. The puritans of massachussets didn't believe in religious freedom. If you were not a puritan and didn't agree with their views you were not welcome in massachussets.

Also they were in America because they wanted to seperate from the church of England. Also the king of England didn't want them in England.

The major cause of the American revolution was British taxes such as the stamp act and the sugar act. Not religious freedom.

No taxation without representation they said.

[Maple]

12. Those 'values'

and laws have been around for thousands of years, and are not Judeo-Christian in origin or nature.

[kalashnikov]

14. who came up with them?

the Jews codified them and the christians expanded upon those ideals.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. Right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

are not 'Judeo-Christian' values. They are described as Rights endowed on all Men by their 'Creator'. And the DOI also invokes 'the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God' -- that's the closest it comes to a religious statement. Certainly nothing that indicates this is a 'Christian' nation.

[kalashnikov]

17. I wouldnt say those are universal values

held by all religions. Those values are very much based on the rights of the individual. Many eastern religions believe that the right to life, liberty, and happiness are secondary to the welfare of family and society. That these are not god given rights but rather privelages.

[Maple]

18. Well

Our society is based on a combination of pre-Christian justice, values and ideas,..Saxons, Danes, Celts, Angles etc, Iroquois federation ideas, Greek democratic principles, Roman militarism, and pagan ideals of freedom. Plus the Code of Hammurabi, the Edicts of Asoka, the Laws of Manu and many other justice systems.....they all say pretty much the same thing, and pre-date Christianity or Judaism.

[kalashnikov]

19. but the ones that our founding fathers were thinking

of were chrisitian primarily. They did not have the code of hammurabai in mind.

[Romberry]

24. Sorry, but that is a remarkably ignorant take...

...on "what" our founding fathers were thinking. Judeo-Christian had nothing to do with it. The founders were living during the age of the the Enlightenment, "A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms." They were well aware of the harms resulting from entangling religion and government and even the (few) Christians among them mostly wanted no part of it.

I don't know where you recived your "learning" but you'd do well to unlearn it because it's simply wrong. You won't find free speech, separation of chruch and state, right to refuse self incrimination or much of anything else in our constitution that squares with "Judeo-Christian". Put on your thinking cap.

[Cloud]

26. Yeah

I suggest reading a few books by Thomas Paine. The 2 I like are the Age of Reason and Common Sense.

I just took the political compass test and I got:

Economic Left/Right: -2.38
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.46

For suggested books to read I saw both books by Thomas Paine and Stupid White Men by Michael Moore.

Sounds like good reading.

The age of reason in the 18th century advanced the human race. For hundreds of years humans were limited to hard labor in the fields of Feudal Manor lords. Now in just a few hundred years we are able to fly and even go to outer space.

[kalashnikov]

28. you should read Voltaire too

if you are so enamored of the 18th century.

[Cloud]

29. I think I will

I have been interested in the laws of planetary motion by Keplar and the advancements of science in that era. Particularly the invention of electricity and the steam engine.

:hi:

[kalashnikov]

30. Voltaire was more of a social commentator

who reveals his time period during the enlightenment to be less enlightened than some would think. Religion was still a major dominating force back then, much more than some on this thread would have you believe.

[kalashnikov]

27. I wouldnt put too much faith in the founding

fathers. They did not learn all the lessons from the Enlightenmne, Jefferson held many slaves for a very long time.

Also, I think you are very ignorant to assume that the religion of the founding fathers played no part in their view of the world and what value system they believed should be imposed.

[BiggJawn]

20. Search on "Code of Hammurabi"

Hope I spelled it OK...Written about 18 centurys before Jesus was born.Hammurabi was a Mesopotamian King, not a Hebrew.

Point being, the Jews and Christians did not invent Law.

And some of what became the American System of government was also lifted from the Iroquois, who, until the coming of the "Black Robes" weren't either Jewish OR Christian.

As also has been pointed out before, the 10 commandments are nothing to base Law on. OK, so "Thou Shall not Kill" is pretty universal. you might find even something like that in cultures that have been so far spared the missionary's interference.

"Thou shall not Covet thy Neighbour's Goods" flys directly in the face of good old Murkan Capitalism. Our whole economy is based on the hope that people will see what their neighbour has and want a bigger shinier one.

[kalashnikov]

23. the law encompasses many different ideas

but Judeo-christian best describes the values the laws ascribe to. I dont doubt that judaism and christianity took from many different sources, but as a whole our value system resembles christianity better than any other single value system. And it makes sense since most are christian.

[RevelerRevenant]

11. It's A Religious Thing!

I constantly write letters to the editor about this. A gentleman
recently wrote a letter saying he was intolerant and biased because
his Bible,
"my Bible, the Christian Bible, makes me intolerant because God
wants me to be intolerant."
I wrote that the Bible doesn't teach intolerance and hate but
love. It is not the Christian's Bible either. The writings in
the Bible were used as a guidance for Jews. Christians built
their religion around the Bible in the first three centuries after
the death of Jesus Christ. Christianity is not the largest
religion in the world either. I don't understand how that people
can quote "facts" from the Bible that aren't there. As with
Gays, the Bible states it is an "abomination." Doesn't say
anything about it being a sin and neither did Jesus condemn it. The Bible also states that fornicaters,
adultery, idolators, drunkards, revilers, extortioners etc will keep one from inheriting the Kingdom of God but religious people always
conveniently leave this portion out of their "facts."
Republicans have seen Arnold elected Governor. He believes in abortion, gay rights, affirmative action etc. Doesn't this sound
quite hypocritical? Republicans who preach Love, family, God, war
and mom, put a guy in office who is opposite of their beliefs.
The larger shame is that Americans are going to the polls and
electing more Republicans insuring that the rest of us will be
preached at for perceived wrongs while they continue to fornicate,
committ adultery, drink, and so forth.
I am a Baptist but do not hold many of their beliefs any longer.
I generally use the term Universal Baptist. I consider myself(and
very proudly) left-wing(liberal).
Hate-talk radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and
their cronies have made liberal a dirty word but I wear the label
proudly.

[incapsulated]

15. The beliefs of the Ancient Greeks

And Protestantism had a good deal of influence, too.

All that really matters is the firm line the founders drew between Church and State, and their belief in freedom of thought, speech and press. Something baffoons like O'Reilly like to ignore.

[delete_bush]

22. And what is the genesis of the term Judeo-Christian

in the first place. I will admit up front a complete lack of knowledge about America's religious attitudes in 1776 but I do know that even in 1976 there was a tremendous amount of anti-semitism in the US.

My guess is that the fundies have embraced this hyphenated religion vs. little acceptance of it by mainstream Judaism.

If this is the case then they should at least be true to their distorted view of history and say we were founded on "Christian only" values.

And by the way, OhReally, I don't think they were too hot on you Catholics either.

[incapsulated]

25. "Judeo-Christian"

Is just a term used to describe the shared beliefs and values of two entwined religions. Christianity started as a Jewish sect, remember.

[delete_bush]

32. Yeah, I was curious though about

whether or not the hyphenated form is of recent vintage.

I'm sure the founders were aware of the historical relationship between the two religions but the term suggests a closer dynamic that might not have existed at the time.

There are also major differences between the religions, depending of course on which branches or sects are involved in the comparison.

[jobycom]

31. Founders Myths in general

This was one of my specialties as a grad student. Often when a new religion pops up, it tries to find roots in the past, since religions tend to want to be eternal, and if you can trace their roots to the barber down the street it somehow seems less impressive.

Christians were at first thought of as a rebellion against Judaism, but as it became more established it began to incorporate Jewish history into its own, claiming that it was the true descendant of Abraham, and that contemporary Judaism was not. Islam did this, too, claiming that Jesus and Abraham were God's true prophets but that Jews and Christians had ruined the message, and Islam was the true religion. It's why Muslims didn't kill Jews and Christians when they conquered their lands.

In the early nineteenth century, Christians lamented the fact that none of Founders or Presidents were Christian. This was through ANdrew Jackson, at least. When "In God we Trust" first wound up on our money, it was pushed by preachers who argued that if America fell, no one would know there was a Christian presence in it, since it was founded by pagans.

Now right winger Christians are trying to rewrite history to justify their takeover of America, and their corruption of Christianity. If our Founders were Christian (and few were), then Christians are the true descendants of our Founders, so they deserve to rule the nation. If there is no connection between Christians and our Founders, then they are only justified in ruling if they win elections and odious stuff like that. To me it's that old subconscious realizing they are wrong so the conscious is trying to find ways to trick them into believing they are right. Not easy, since they claim to worship a man who said "Blessed are the peacemakers," yet they follow a man who said "Kill them all cause I can."

They are trying to justify themselves, is all. And since conservatives have no morals, they just lie to do it.

[incapsulated]

33. mmm....

Christians were at first thought of as a rebellion against Judaism, but as it became more established it began to incorporate Jewish history into its own, claiming that it was the true descendant of Abraham, and that contemporary Judaism was not.

I can't really agree with that description.

Christians where simply Jews that believed Jesus was the Hebrew Messiah. Many Jews saw this as heresy, of course, but they were Jews in every sense of the word. When Paul began his mission in abroad, then the real arguments over whether they where, in fact, a Jewish religion or something new and different began. They did not incorporate Judaism "after the fact", just the opposite.

Edit Athough I may be missing your point entirely. Did you mean contemporary Christians?