Prove to me the Death Penalty is a perfect system......

[trumad]

and will only kill those who are truly guilty! If you can't and you tell me that it's an imperfect system, and that a few innocents have to die for the greater good of society, then me-thinks you're as much a killer as the actual er.. killer!

[dbt]

1. And while you're at it,

Show ME how the death penalty is a deterrent!

:freak:
dbt

[elperromagico]

19. Two tall orders in the same thread?

1. It isn't perfect. Nothing that involves killing is perfect.

2. There would have to be as many executions in a year as there are murders in a year for it to even begin to be a deterrent. It only deters the person being executed.

Don't think for a moment that the death penalty is about perfection or deterrence to those who support it. It is about revenge. You won't find someone standing outside the death house in Texas saying, "Oh, I'm so glad this system is so perfect!" or "Thank God murderers are being deterred with this execution. We're saving lives!"

You'll hear, "I'm glad this bastard's getting what he deserves."

[Mandate My Ass]

2. Perfect? Hell it isn't even competent

A study of every capital murder conviction which led to a death sentence over a 25-year timespan revealed a "system collapsing under the weight of its own mistakes."

Here are some of the "highlights;"

High error rates lead innocent persons to be sentenced to die. The study of post-reversal outcomes reveals that 82% of those whose capital judgments were overturned due to serious error were given a sentence less than death after the errors were cured on retrial. Seven percent were found to be not guilty of the capital crime.

Catching so many errors takes an average of nine years from death sentence to execution. In most cases, death row inmates wait for years for the lengthy review procedures needed to uncover all this error. Then, their death sentences are reversed.

High error rates persist over time. More than 50% of all cases reviewed were found to be seriously flawed in 20 of the 23 study years, including 17 of the last 19. In half the years, including the most recent one, the error rate was over 60%.

High error rates exist across the country. More than 90% of states that administer death sentences have overall error rates of 52% or higher. 85% have error rates of 60% or higher. Three-fifths have error rates of 70% or higher. (State-by-state reports cards are available.)

The study found that the errors that lead courts to overturn capital sentences are not mere technicalities. The three most common errors are: (1) egregiously incompetent defense lawyers (37%); (2) prosecutorial misconduct, often the suppression of evidence of innocence (19%); and (3) faulty instructions to jurors (20%). Combined, these three constitute 76% of all error in capital punishment proceedings.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/00/06/lawStudy.html

[DinahMoeHum]

11. It ain't cheap, either. . .

It costs a lot less to keep a convicted killer imprisoned for life (with no parole) than it does to send him to death row, and waste monies on lawyers pleading to spare him, pleading to get on with the execution, etc.

Do I believe in using the death penalty? It would be a very- conditional-very-qualified yes; meaning that it should be an extremely rare situation. And one where there damn well better be absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the perpetrator's guilt.

:evilfrown:

[mermaid]

13. What About...

Brady vs. Maryland? Prosecutors are required by this case law to turn over exonerating evidence. If they fail to do so, the prosecutor could be sent up the river.

[blondeatlast]

28. But are they ever tried, and if they are, how many actually go

"up the river?" That's about as effective of a deterrant as the death penalty is. In short, none whatsoever.

[zeemike]

3. Oh but it is perfect

And that is in spite of the fact that it kills the innocent.
It terminates the problem for the justice system. Once the switch is pulled and the case is closed, the file is put away forever. And no one will ever hear of it again.
And so what if someone dies without having done anything that should require it? Who can tell if in some time in the future they may commit one? And besides that, the person must be guilty of some social indiscretion or they would not be in such trouble anyway right? It should serve as a warning to any one that thinks about doing anything against the law and order of the country.
Yes it is perfect for them and who gives a shit about the “common” man.

[ulysses]

4. most of the world

has realized that it isn't perfect and *can't be* perfect, so they no longer employ it. I supposed we'll get there eventually, but we've got a long evolutionary road to travel as a society first.

[Mandate My Ass]

5. kick

*

[TreasonousBastard]

6. OMG...

you started it.

Preaching to the choir here, I suppose, but if you've been active in anti-dp work, you've noticed how difficult it is to get the word out.

You may have run into Dudley Sharpe and a few others who have file cabinets full of "studies" and talking points refuting just about everything we could say about deterrence, justice, and innocence.

Part of our problem is that we haven't found the smoking gun of anyone executed who was proven to be innocent. We have a list of well over a hundred "probables" who have been executed or on death row now, but no one we can point to that they will have to agree to. Even after the Illinois fiasco, they claim it was the "perfect system" that freed the improperly convicted. There are a number of executions that were questionable, but there's no mechanism for opening an investigation after the execution. Records and evidence tend to be sealed by the DA's and there's little or no access for a private investigation.

We've got some damn good arguments, but we just can't get them across to the people who count-- the electrorate and the legislators who are afraid of being called soft on crime. The courts aren't much help any more either, with Herrera essentially saying that evidence of innocence isn't good enough cause for a retrial or resentencing.

btw, Frank Boyle, the Illinois law prof who wrote the impeachment articles now sitting in a hundred congressional bottom drawers waiting for the right time, was one of the leading forces getting Ryan nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. I got a message that the Nobel committee was giving that nomination some serious thought, but didn't want to give it to another American the year after Carter got it.

So it goes...

[mermaid]

16. They Aren't "Soft On Crime??"

If they weren't soft on crime, I wouldn't be planning a memorial service on Nov 20 in Austin to honor the 16 transgender people murdered JUST THIS PAST YEAR in hate crimes!!
These were my sisters and brothers...MURDERED for no better reason than they made someone "undcomfortable."

Oh, they're soft od crime when the victim in=s a transgender peson, let me tell you that!!

We face it every day of our lives, and our government refuses to protect us from hatred!

The only person I know of to get the death penalty for a hate-crime involving a transgender victim is John Lotter, in Nebraska. And when they finally pull the switch on that bastard, I want box seats!

Sorry, folks...I know this is very non-PC of me but, in this case...I WANT TO SEE HIM DIE!!

If you'd like to understand WHY I have this attitude, visit http://www.rememberingourdead.org

I'm generally against the death penalty, because it is being administered by a rotten judicial system. Most of the recipients of the DP are of lower socio-economic class...because they cannot afford the quality of representation that will get them off, as their rich counterparts can! (can anyone here say O.J.???)

But in John Lotter's case, I feel the DP is ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED, and I can't wait till that bastard FRIES!!

Go see the movie "Boys Don't Cry." It's based on the real life story of one Brandon Teena...who was murdered by John Lotter and Greg Nissen.
Nissen turned state's evidence and got a lighter sentence.

[blondeatlast]

29. So it's okay as long as it hits close to where you're living?

How does that make us better than those who are actually guilty?

No excuses--the dp is bad law if nothing else. It is impossible to administer fairly as long as public defenders are the ones arguing most of the cases.

[mermaid]

30. I Respect Your Right

to be wrong!!!

I wanna see that Lotter bastard FRY!!

Now, does that make me a barbarian? He killed someone I love. Now I want vengeance. Does that make me a bad person?

[blondeatlast]

32. The desire for revenge makes you human.

I'm sorry for your the death of your loved one. But I simply can't abide the taking of a life in ANY manner.

My prayer for your comfort is on its way, and I truly, truly am so very sorry. May your loved one be at peace in God's embrace.

[bhunt70]

7. Everyone should see "The Exonerated"

A play based on the true stories of people on death row. Excellent play, it uses actual court transcript, testimony, etc for all of its dialogue. Very chilling to see how easy it is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up on death row.

Best non-shakespeare play I have seen in a long time.

[trumad]

8. Good posts up above

I just want someone to prove to me that an Innocent person has never been put to death via the Death Penalty.. They can't... I think the burden of proof lies on them rather that the anit-death penalty crowd....

One innocent death is one to many...Period!

[Mandate My Ass]

9. An interesting statistic

The study I posted says that 7% of the cases examined resulted in determining actual innocence of death row inmates nationally. In Illinois, undergrad journalism students assigned to re-examine capital cases resulted in determining innocence in something like nine of the 13 cases most of which demonstrated egregious prosecutorial misconduct. Kids with no legal training whatsoever were accomplishing what legal professionals were unable/unwilling to do.

The "system" is not self correcting. It takes interested and dedicated outsiders to uncover the flaws in the system. If this went on in Illinois, I daresay it's going on in other states as well but nobody from the outside is examining these cases.

[trumad]

10. Like Texas

Good post Monica and thanks for help in making my point...

[Unforgiven]

12. Not Perfect

But,consider there are no repeat offenders.

[JohnKleeb]

14. This is one of the reasons why I support who I support for president

[bring_em_home_bush]

15. cruel and unusual punishment

Critics Say Execution Drug May Hide Suffering
New York Times
October 1, 2003

(snip)

Just about every aspect of the death penalty provokes acrimonious debate, but this method of killing, by common consensus, is as humane as medicine can make it. People who have witnessed injection executions say the deaths appeared hauntingly serene, more evocative of the operating room than of the gallows.

But a growing number of legal and medical experts are warning that the apparent tranquillity of a lethal injection may be deceptive. They say the standard method of executing people in most states could lead to paralysis that masks intense distress, leaving a wide-awake inmate unable to speak or cry out as he slowly suffocates.

(snip)

"The subject gives all the appearances of a serene expiration when actually the subject is feeling and perceiving the excruciatingly painful ordeal of death by lethal injection," the judge, Ellen Hobbs Lyle, wrote, describing the worst-case scenario. "The Pavulon gives a false impression of serenity to viewers, making punishment by death more palatable and acceptable to society."

(snip)

The third is potassium chloride, which stops the heart and causes excruciating pain if the prisoner is conscious. "It would basically deliver the maximum amount of pain the veins can deliver, which is a lot," Dr. Mark J. S. Heath, an anesthesiologist who teaches at Columbia, testified at a hearing for Mr. Abdur'Rahman.

[elperromagico]

20. Back in 1890...

... people felt that the electric chair was a modern marvel, an easy and painless way to dispatch condemned prisoners.

How times change. By 1990, most states no longer used electrocution, citing it as cruel, unusual, and highly painful. Now only Nebraska uses it exclusively. Lethal injection was seized upon as an easy and painless way to dispatch condemned prisoners.

Don't be surprised if lethal injection has been rejected by most states within 100 years. The truth is, death is rarely easy or painless. You can dress it up as a medical procedure if you like... it's still unpleasant.

[bring_em_home_bush]

33. Indeed

The very first electrocution, on August 6, 1890, in New York's Auburn Penitentiary, was "so terrible," the New York Times reported, "that the word fails to convey the idea." After the first 1,000-plus volt jolt of electricity, ax-murderer William Kemmler started twitching, and witnesses screamed. The executioners slammed down the switch again. Kemmler's blood vessels broke, pushing blood through the skin. His skin and hair burned, and a stench filled the room. The electricity magnate George Westinghouse later offered this pithy summary of the ghastly scene: "They would have done better with an ax."

http://www.illinoistimes.com/gbase/Gyrosite/Content?oid=oid%3A2034

[jbm]

17. I read once...

that the courts accept the possibility that some percentage of the people on death row will be innocent,for the same reasons they accept that some percentage of the guilty will be set free. As long as the percentages stay low,they write it off as the inevitable trade off for any system that is going to contain human error.

I'm ok with the fact that the guilty will occasionally get off,but I don't think there is anything the death penality has to offer society that is worth the death of a single innocent person.

[peabody71]

18. Murder is a crime. Except for the government.

Why do we give OUR Government the power to kill it's citizens?
If one innocent person is put to death, then the death penalty is wrong. Besides the Governments roll is to take these people out of society, not vengence.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. it isn't perfect but that doesn't matter

Capital punishment is wrong even if it is perfect. We wouldn't have to worry about it at all if we would join the rest of the civilized world and ban it.

[Speed8098]

22. I thinks it's ironic

that the same people who support the death penalty are the ones who promote violence to end abortion.

The death penalty is WRONG

[onebigbadwulf]

23. Death Penalty = Barbaric

1. The death penalty is imperfect and therefore completely unjust

2. It is a contradiction to make suicide/euthanasia illegal, but death penalty legal. It only gives martyr-seeking zealots and suicidals a reason to mercilessly kill innocents.

3. Caining is a bigger deterrent than the death penalty

4. We EXECUTE MINORS! What in the F**K are we DOING?!

5. IT COSTS MORE ANYWAY!

6. Life in maximum security is MUCH worse than death.

[Flubadubya]

24. The real irony is..

not just the people who support violence to end abortion. It is the fact that most people who simply oppose abortion from an ethical and moral standpoint, heartily support the death penalty as well.

I really don't see how they square that in their minds and hearts. Does it make any sense to you?

[Mandate My Ass]

25. If you like playing god

and having absolute control over the destiny of others without ever having to concern yourself with the consequences it makes sense.

[Speed8098]

26. Absolutely none

I have never understood how people who are so passionate about abortion can advocate the death penalty. It seems like an oxymoron to me.

I guess the operative part of that word is moron.

Go figure.

Black is white/Up is down/War equals peace

[KittyWampus]

27. If Killing Is Wrong- Then It's Wrong

So whether someone is guilty or not is irrelevant to me.

The only crime I would consider capital punishment for is High Treason- because you've endangered your "extended family" that is your fellow citizens.

[NaMeaHou]

31. The death penalty is only a method for saving money

The proponents will eventually deny the years of appeals and get the convicted executed as quickly as possible to save money.