How to argue with a right wing Christian.

[Pontus]

Wanna argue with a right wing Christian on social issues? Here is a suggestion on how to do it.

Below is a hypothetical discussion between yourself and a RWC:

RWC: Homosexuality is contrary to the Bible and should be condemned.

Reply: Where is it condemned?

RWC: Well, in Romans 1.

Reply: When it says women were starting to lust after other women?

RWC: Yes.

Reply: Doesn't it say earlier that the reason for this was that women were starting not to have children and had gotton caught up in materialism? Doesn't that mean homosexuality is a symptom of rampant materialism that leads to abandoning family in favor of wealth - and doesn't neo-classical liberalism and globalization promote money as the ultimate ideal?

RWC: You are twising scripture, there's a big difference between choosing not to have kids and homosexuality.

Reply: So you support a woman not having kids?

RWC: Not really, but that's up to the person.

Reply: That's not what Christians believed in the 1940s and 1950s. Nowadays you only hear the Pope and the Mormons encouraging larger families. Most Protestants seem to only have a couple of kids. Certainly not a traditional family model.

RWC: Mormons! They aren't Christian! They even believed people should be allowed to have more than one wife. That's disgusting!

Reply: Traditional families? Didn't the Bible promote polygamy -- wouldn't that be more traditional?

RWC: Only becuae the people were unrighteous did Goid allow polygamy.

Reply: So Moses, Abraham the rest of the prophets were unrighteous, like thjose engaging in alternative lifestyles today. Say, if a man with two wives in Africa converts to your church, what should he do with his second wife?

RWC: Divorce her of course.

Reply: Didn't Jesus condemn divorce more harshly than Moses did?

RWC: But he condemned polygamy as well.

Reply: Where? In the Parable of the Ten Virgins? The bridegroom winds up marrying five women.

RWC: You will burn for these thoughts! I don't care to talk with you anymore!

[Mike Niendorff]

1. A simpler approach:

(quick disclaimer: I do not seriously consider these people "Christians", at least not in any meaningful sense of the word. But, be that as it may ...)

RWC: "The Bible says ..."

me: "And why should that matter to me?"

RWC: "Because the Bible is the Word of God!"

me: "Says who?"

RWC: "Says God!"

me: "Prove it."

RWC: "um ..."

-- quick end of conversation --


MDN

[KharmaTrain]

3. Amen...ROFLMAO

The burn in hell answer gets real old...LOL

[Classical_Liberal]

4. That ends their evangelical efforts, but the first person's

suggestions may convert them. I think their are too many fundies so I consider this a worthwhile effort. I am old enough to remember the good old days in the 1970s before the "moral majority" when there were hardly any around, atleast if you don't live in the South. Deprogramming is definately in order, and you can't do it with any other thing but the bible.

[onebigbadwulf]

6. Education vs Religion

Seriously, where did all these fundy nuts come from? I could have sworn there weren't this many brain-washed psychoes 10 years ago.

The less we spend on education, the more we will have to deal with these zealots of christ.

[salin]

9. systematic takeover of mainstream protestant denominations

Locally many Churches that were mainstream denominations 20 years ago - now have a very evangelical, literalist bent. Sort of a theological movement to the right. Simultaneously there was the politicization of the pulpit via the Christian Coalition which worked to blend their brand of Christianity to Republicanism (and now it is EVIL to vote otherwise....) And along the way - the whole movement grew to be quite main stream.

[starroute]

29. Article in today's Guardian about this very thing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1061368,00.html

The article is headlined "US millionaire bankrolls crusade against gay Anglican priests," but the story goes a lot deeper than that. Right-wing fundies like Howard Ahmanson (of electronic voting notoriety) and Richard Mellon Scaife are spending millions in a very deliberate effort to infiltrate mainstream Protestant churches and drive out or destroy their liberal wings. The article suggests that they are, unfortunately, likely to be successful.

Very disturbing stuff -- and it doesn't bode well for the future of liberal Christianity.

[blondeatlast]

12. 10 years ago there were more--they were much more powerful then.

[blondeatlast]

11. I like your answer; logic means nothing to these types.

And I AM a Christian. There is no proof that the Bible is the Word; I consider it a textbook.

[mumon]

23. Well, almost....

The "Christian" then goes to trot out scripture that says:

"All scripture is inspired of God.." (or if they're really stupid/dishonest they'll use the faux term "God breathed..."

To which you reply: How do you know it's not wrong? Or how do you know that the "inspiration" here doesn't include paradoy and satire? It's seems awfully funny to me, that part about smiting the Stalagtites...

Or they say:

"The Law of the Lord is perfect..."
- uh, but that only applies to the Torah, not the buy-bull.

[KG]

2. i dam sure got better things to do with my time

than to argue with right wing Christians. or freepers. or gun nuts.
or zionists, or etc.

i no longer have the patience to point out the obvious to the willfully obtuse.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. heh!

Arguing with them just doesn't work.

Ignoring them and just letting them follow you around yapping and nipping at your heels like small annoying dogs is far more productive.

[KG]

10. it's much more fun to mock them.

especially since most of them are too dim-witted to realize you are sending them up. :)

[Kamika]

7. Better yet!!

Do not argue with them.. just walk away and do something more productive , like sleeping

[hippywife]

8. A much better approach

is to invoke the character of Christ himself. The fact that he reserved his harshest condemnation for the religious elite of his day and spent his time with those considered by them to be the less desirable members of society.


Matthew 22:34ff:

When the Pharisees heard that He had put the Saducees to silence, they gathered themselves together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked in a question, testing Him. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?"

And He said to them, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

"In these two commandments depend the whole of the Law and the Prophets."

[blondeatlast]

14. Godless heretic! You sayin' Jesus was a pinko?!

(please note the deep, dark sarcasm dripping from subject line)

[hippywife]

17. LOL

Yeah, dripping sarcasm duly noted. :)

[Cat Atomic]

13. Good one! But you clearly have knowledge of the bible.

My knowledge of the bible is extremely sketchy.

Besides, I've always found that debate simply doesn't work with most evangelicals. They operate from faith, not evidence.

I've attempted to have a friendly argument with evangelicals several times. I've never been hostile, because I do respect their beliefs, but I expect the same consideration in return.

Each time, they refused to examine the validity of their beliefs for even an instant. When I've attempted to explain the scientific model and how honest questioning of seemingly obvious ideas is crucial, they actually get angry. It seeems like they don't just disregard science and objective thought, they actually have contempt for it. I've had them just lose it and start shouting insults at me. It's very strange.

They're on another planet, mentally- we don't speak the same language.

[Speck Tater]

15. Just quote them scripture:

"(Judas) departed and went and hanged himself." Matt 27:5
"Go, and do thou likewise." Luke 10:37

[Bruce McAuley]

16. The crux of fundamentalism is this:

They believe that ONLY THEIR WAY is THE way. This can be easily refuted by the logical argument that MOST people in the world today DO NOT subscribe to their viewpoint. Fundamentalists are out of touch with the rest of the world because how can they say THEY ALONE have the secret for getting into Heaven, when their heaven excludes 90+% of the rest of the world.
It comes down to how can the Great Spirit exclude parts of itself from heaven, if there is indeed such a place?
Right now is all we have, heaven and the future are all conjecture, and a waste of time to discuss.
This won't stop them, but it slows them down considerably, since their moral authority evaporates in the face of the NOW.
Good Luck!
Bu the way, this argument works for Muslim fundamentalists as well as Christian fundamentalists.

Bruce

[Hamlette]

18. try "Jesus was gay"

really makes 'em mad. Point out that a 34 year old unmarried man was unheard of in its day. He must have been gay. "Not that there's anything wrong with that".

I don't play. I just say "there is no god so it doesn't make sense to try and have a logical conversation about what "he" said."

or

the bible was used to support and defend slavery. I don't think we should be making laws in our society on something that says that.

[mumon]

24. Don't forget to mention that he told 12 men

to "Take and eat, this is my body."

Just do that to one guy peeing next to you in the men's room & see what happens!

[Selwynn]

28. Zero evidence of this, however there's fragment. evidence that Paul was

[Hamlette]

30. there is zero evidence for the existence of God

If religious people want to invent and entire world view with no basis in fact, I can too.

See how silly the whole thing is?

You can believe what you want, just don't expect me to order my life on the basis of your fairy tale.

[ProudGerman]

19. How to argue with a fundy?

A quick boot to the head seems like a good idea.

[dand]

20. It is impossible

to argue with someone who has a closed mind.

[Skittles]

21. AMEN

and biblethumpers are the worst offenders.

[corarose]

22. Tell them you are a Pagan or Catholic

It works everytime because it makes them go nuts!

[drdigi420]

25. You might as well be trying to convince

a crazy man that his ass cheeks are not made out of poptarts and paper mache'.

Religious people have been frightened by the head terrorist of their cult into putting up blinders to truth and fact. With the threat of eternal torture, the leaders of these cults have terrorized their followers with fairy tales in order to get them to follow their command (and give up that $).

Religion is terrorism. The only difference between religious terrrorism and regular terrorism is that regular terrorist threats are REAL, not imagined.

In 1000 years, people that still cling to religion will be nearly extinct, as science disproves more and more of their myths. We will look back on these foolish people with scorn (some of us already do) and wonder how they could have been so easily fooled.

[kodi]

26. ask him why he has $ in his pocket if jesus told him to give it 2 the poor

and refer to the fact that jesus disparaged "publicans," so he knew even then what low-down dirty scum they were.

[Selwynn]

27. Too simplistic.

Maybe this will work on stupid conservative Christians, but although I do not agreee with fundamentalist Christianty, I promise you the responses of the "RWC" are extremely weak and designed to favor the other guy.

For one thing, there are multiple places where homosexuality is unambiguously called a "sin" and "abomination" in the Bible. There really isn't any way to come back and say "no it doesn't." Heh, YES it does - but the Bible is wrong.

It's interesting to me however, that Jesus never mentioneh homosexuality being a sin, or homosexuality at all, ever - not one time. Here is the "Son of God" supposedly giving us everything relevant to salvation and the issue isn't even important enough to him to mention? The only places where it is condemned is in the a) Old Testament and b) Paul

If you want to attack the credibility of the Old Testament pronouncements against homosexuality, just point out to Christians all the other crazy "sins" listed in the Old Testament, that we agree today are probably not applicable to modern society, like wearing clothes of two different kinds of material being sinful, or not having a thatched roof being sinfur, or touching the skin of a dead animal, or touching a woman while she is in her menstrul cycle, or the exhortation to kill your neighbor if he works on the sabbath, etc.

Then if you want to attack pauls pronouncement against homosexuality, you can start by pointing out his endorsement of slavery, his attitudes towards woman, and the fact that some scholars believe that there is enough evidence to suggest that Paul wrestled with accepting his own homosexuality himself. Actaully that last part would probably just make you feel good but enrage the fundie Christian, but still.