Possible reason why something is rotten in America

[jmatthan]

I watched the 50+ responses to my last thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=495392

and a possible answer dawned on me as to maybe why this state of rotteness exists.

My opinion is that it is probably because many “liberals” do not even bother to read what is written. They shoot off their words before chewing the cud. From many of the responses I found that people have come to conclusions based on “their” predetermined opinions. Hardly a liberal approach!! It also appears that many in the DU forum cannot follow the “English” language.

1. I am not a Finn. I have a Finnish wife and Finnish children as well as British and Indian children. We are a multinational, multicultural family. I have many relatives in America and many American relatives. I owe no loyalty to any one countr, not America, not Finland, not Britain, not Europe, not India, not.....
2. I am not a Scandinavian.
3. I am not an European.
4. I am not white.
5. I am not a Muslim.
6. I do not belong to any organised Christian Church.
7. I believe in the Christian philosophy of “Love they neighbour as thyself” and also the philosophy of many religions “One must not kill.”
8. I did not ask at anytime or for anyone to pray that Americans were killed in any part of the world. I stated a fact that many are praying for this because of the terror being rained by Americans troops on innocent human beings.
9. I praised the liberal movement and all its components in my very first paragraph and then asked why it was so ineffective. (I have been featured many times for my opinions on Mike Malloy, Peter Werbe, Nancy Skinner as well as Doug Stephan Talk Shows and even as late as last Friday on the Curtis Ellis Talk Show regarding his discussion with Paul Krugman.)
10. I have asked that why despite this “liberal” movement the “Archie Bunker” syndrome had become the mainstream of American life? There is no other explanation for the election of Arnold Schwarzenegger last week.
11. Some said how great the American democratic system was - hardly answering the question as to how it was possible that if it was such a “great system” the 2000 Presidential election could be stolen by the combined effort of this "great democratic system" as well as the "incorruptible American judiciary".
12. How many of you DUers wrote to Al Gore NOT to give up his bid to get the Presidency in 2000? My wife and I from Finland sent an email to him not to yield as we already saw then what lay ahead if he yielded.
13. I did not and do not support Saddam Hussain but I also not support the American philosophy of preemptive invasion.
14. I certainly have derided the “compliant Democrats” who gave the support to the Bush Crime family to put your country in the state it was today. Bush and his cohorts could never have done that without their implicit and complicit support.
15. I am a person who follows the Gandhian philosophy and I do not support violence. That would have been evident if you had read my reference page on the “Correspondence with an educated American”.
16. Although I am not deeply interested in conspiracy theories - maybe some of you would be well advised to visit the website

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

which would even put to shame to the depth of the conspiracy theory associated with 9/11. And the possible signifance of the American involvement in World War II and the development of the the development and use of weapons of mass destruction as the atom bombs which hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki may become evident.
17. As regards my staying away from America - knowing the tentacles of the Patriot Act which only came into being BECAUSE of the support of the Democrats, and knowing the colour of my skin as well as my opinions about the Bush Crime family, that advise I will certainly follow as I would be arrested and incarcerated the minute I landed in "great democratic" America. Some Finns who have landed in America have been arrested, ill-treated and deported for far less crimes than mine (refer an earlier post of mine on the DU forum) in the last year!!
18. Some DUers talk about America’s economic greatness when it has been and is built on the long existing Bush Crime Family and PANC philosophy of stealing the world’s resources and especially oil for use by Americans at dollar a gallon while we in the rest of the world (including the developing countries) have to pay US $5 per gallon.
19. And even after that the American arrogance does not consider what damage their use of energy at this rate is destroying the environment of the world!!
20. Where would America and Americans be if you had to pay the same price as the rest of us and also pay for cleaning up the environment at the parallel rate at which it you are consuming the world fossil fuels.
21. Would I be wrong to think that then many of you may even be clamouring your loud support for Bush and his cohorts and PANC to keep your petrol price at a dollar a gallon?
22. If some of you would delve a bit deeper - you would find that my wife and I are the authors of the book “Handbook for Survival in Finland” a highly critical look at the Finnish system.
23. Nothing is totally good or totally bad in any part of the world. Finland presently comes out on top of the countries as the least corrupt country in the corruption league (America stands as 14), whereas we claim that Finland is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, in some instances putting shame on the country at the bottom of the table, 130. Bangladesh!!.

My fervent plea to all of you American “liberals” is that you pull your act together and read what Arundhati Roy asked you to do. That was the most important part of the message in my last post.

If you do not act together and in harmony, and pull America out of the tailspin it is in, then the world is doomed to Armegeddon.

May I kindly ask you to please read this message and not "attempt to kill" this messenger.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[JitterbugPerfume]

1. a beautiful post Jacob

also true and frightening

[izzie]

2. I have read this man before and he always seems right.

Armys do a bad job ruling people or do I mean guns. It will not work and never has for long. But may I say that people think I am nuts I am sure.Please do not give me the Chistian reply, as JC was not a man of war.He was a man of peace.Some have made his name bad in this dog fight.

[ablbodyed]

3. Outstanding post SIR.....

We are a veryVERYvery selfish country. Your observations are mostly correct.
One explanation of the Demo/liberal dilemma is that we tend to NOT go for the jugler. We are more conflicted because we can see that NOTHING is black or while and intelligent people try to make rational decisions. Our enemies, who are the enemies of freedom, honor, and intellect, have no such qualms. Most are terrified of original thought and, if they ever had such a thought, they vowed never to make THAT mistake again. Most are true to their word, though rarely so in other situations.
Organized christianity is a root cause of the problem. I KNOW I'll be lambasted for this thought, as I have been before, but I stand by that statement. I am a spitirual person, but oc is man's creation to usurp those impulses for man's benefit. While some are better than others, for all oc orgs the most important goal is to maintain and advanvce the org. Any good that gets done is coincidental, even though there are sincere attempts to do good. If push came to shove, the good would be sacrificed for to the protection of the org. EVERY TIME.
The fact that the people controlling this govt. (even the non-fundamentalists ones: Rove is an Episcapalian) are the ABSOLUTE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL of christianity is the key to their policies: complete self-rightousness, stupidity in the face of observable events, ruthlessness. Your fear about Armaggodom is realistic. I believe that many in this admin secretly, and not so-secretly craft policies that make this more likely. They are 'saved', and will get their eternal reward, while the rest of us will be damned which they believe is only right and just.
I appreciate your observations. They are cogent and welcome. The country (and therefore the world) has one more chance. Defeating this group in 2004. If we don't, than there will be no stopping them.
I will now read your earlier post, and the responses, but I wanted to get this into the system.
Thank You.

[terrisel]

4. ...have to pay US$5.00 a gallon (oil)

Would you tell us about oil in Finland? Who pays how much and to whom does the money go ? How does Finland hold dollars to pay for oil? How much of the consumer price is tax? Where does the tax money go?

[jmatthan]

5. Finland and Oil

Finland has to import its oil from Russia and any other country which it can get its supply from at the lowest price. A large portion of the oil is presently refined in Finland.

But we have to pay a huge element of tax on our petrol and heating oil so that we can pay for the cost of polluting the environment as well as the social costs associated with the use of energy. Remember, Finland is a country with a long and extremely cold winter and our heating needs are enormous.

We use some peat, and have plenty of small hydro and a couple of nuclear power plants for our energy requirements, but oil is the most important source presently. Wind and solar enery are becoming more important. Geo-thermal and biomass energy are very very slowly becoming popular - but they are a very very small fraction of the total.

Finland is not the only country where we have to pay $5 for a gallon of petrol. Most citizens in most developed and developing countries who have to buy their oil from the oil market controlled by the oil refiners clique (rather than the oil producing countries) have to pay this price to subsidize the American use of petrol at $ 1 per gallon!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[Mairead]

7. If it's any comfort, Jakob, it's not been $1/gal in the US for years.

[Karenina]

6. Thank you for this post, Jacob

As I read the frist one it was SO obvious many who responded did so operating from their own "assumptions" rathere than reading carefully and asking for clarification. GOOD ON YOU! :bounce:

[Karenina]

8. SHEESH! Lookee dem typos!!!

Bad on me for not proofing! :spank:

Let's try this again! :kick:

And a link to the first thread for anyone who missed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=495392

[my_petard]

9. Wonderfulness

Ain't emoting great?
One gets to say heart warming, fuzzy feely things and get to disclaim all loyalities to all things except humanity.
What you - and probably most of those admiring your sensitivity - are ignoring is that, but for the U.S. (and, o.k., the USSR), Finland would still be contributing troops to the Waffen S.S.
I do not take offense at what you criticized about the U.S. I do take offense at people taking cheap, easy shots at a bad time in our history.
As I wrote before, we are in a difficult time. We will get through it. And when we do,the world will be better off again.
This is not an excuse for what is going on now. But it is a defense against easy criticisms when no other country has - not now, but in the last 100 years - (I know, Vietnam is a problem) - has done more to make the world a better place.

Heikki Makela

[opihimoimoi]

10. Clap Clap Clap

Good Job man,

sending fish and Poi

Keep up the fight for a better world. Heaven knows we need one

[DemExpat]

12. Thanks, my_petard......

This poster does nothing to make this world a better place - talking down on all humanity from an ivory tower - so the message might be valid, but the attitude/ delivery stinks! (IMHO)

I wonder why reading his message comes across EXACTLY like Jehova Witness people at my door......'Apocalyse Now' if you don't heed my message.....
I politely tell them 'NO' and close my door.

I also do not discount the criticisms of the US....of the whole bloody world and its history, but I choose to listen to activist voices who passionately point out the negatives but motivate people for change with positive feelings and ideas...not the self-satisfied doomsdayers who think they are above the fray and the only ones with a pass into heaven....

I always did hate being preached to with fire and brimstone, even as a little girl!

Let's hope the US gets on a decent, positive path (again?) a.s.a.p.

:toast:

DemEx

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. my_petard read "A Peoples History of the United States" by Zinn

and than read "All The Shahs Men" by Kinser...you will rightly blush with shame...as i do...

[The White Rose]

17. Any shot can be seen as a cheap shot right now.

Are only loyal Americans allowed to criticize the United States? The only reason we appear to be in "a bad time in our history" as you put it, is because the powers that be have decided they can get away with dropping the window dressing. You seem to hearken back to a kinder, gentler USA. Tell me, do you think that American corporations are MORE rapacious and amoral now than when Clinton was CEO? Bush et al are simply the naked face of a corporate imperialism that has existed for at least the last 100 years and which has been the cornerstone of US policy. Ask any of the hundreds of counties that America has bombed, invaded, or imposed dictatorships in during those 100 years if they appreciate the kinder, gentler US of former times. Ask the millions of Phillipinos, Iranians, Guatamalans, Hondurans, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, Angolans, Iraqis, and others too numerous to list who lost their lives in that century of wars for the rich, if they feel "better off". You don't seriously believe that terrorists hate us for our "freedoms" do you?

Don't get me wrong. I think the United States has the potential to be the greatest nation the world has ever seen, and if there is a beacon of hope for a united and peaceful planet, then the precepts that this country were founded on are that guiding light. It's just that the truth is uglier than many seem to imagine; and always has been...

[Karenina]

18. You GO, BritDem!

Speak the TRUTH to POWER!!! :bounce: Thank you for your post. You said it so clearly and so much better than I ever could, being, as I am, so emotionally caught up in it (I just start SCREAMING or clam up)!!!

[juajen]

11. How true. How sad

Thanks for your post. A lot of us are trying. We just aren't getting much traction.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. People will base their reaction to you on your initial post

and not search a lot of web pages to get your complete philosophy.

Bearing this in mind, I think you misled a lot of people with the following 2 paragraphs:

"It is in that frame of mind that many around the world (not Muslims, alone) wake up every single morning eagerly hoping to see that more Americans are killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and anywhere else they are spreading their foul hegemony (as now in Venezuela).

We do not support "your troops". We have no reason to "support" the actions of gun-toting killers of innocent people. We have no reason to support your vicious troops who use weapons of mass destruction as depleted uranium and cluster bombs on innocent women and children. We do not appreciate the American way of invading and conquering - from the Wild West onwards."

By talking about people hoping to see Americans killed, and then saying at once 'we do not support' etc., you appeared to be indentifying yourself as one of the people hoping for the deaths. Ironically, this is exactly what people have objected to in Bush's speeches - talking about Saddam and 9/11 in adjacent sentences, thus apparently making a connection between them.

With that, the comment that you doubt there is any such thing as a sensible American, and then the last 2 paragraphs of the post repeating your apparent agreement with those wishing for deaths, it's not surprising that there was a lot of negative reaction to that post.

I'd suggest that in such a public forum, you take a moment to consider how your words might be taken by someone who knows nothing about you; and in this thread you do seem to set out your thoughts in a more measured form.

[Karenina]

19. Jacob's point of Americans being so

"Eingebuldet, Ausgebildet" is very well taken. Because he hit so many "hot buttons" the tendency, IMHO, was to take his words TOTALLY from a self-centered point of view and out of context in order to obfuscate the very VALID points he makes. Jacob is a TRUTH-TELLER. Americans do NOT take well to criticism. I'm almost sorry he blew his cover as being "non-white." On the other hand, WHO but a true friend will tell you there's spinach stuck between your teeh and toilet paper trailing from your shoe? :shrug:

[Skittles]

14. HOWDY FROM TEXAS, JACOB

:hi:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. you are so correct

and i blush with shame for what has been done in my name.....
the corporate controlled media has stolen our minds and enslaved us...and most are not even aware of the huge stones they are dragging to erect the massive corporate pryamids...including yourself and your fellow citizens of Finland......sigh