Will gun control help us or hurt us in 2004?

[Wcross]

I am curious what people think about the issue. I can't help but think it may be part of the reason Al Gore lost West virginia,Tennessee and Arkansas.

[joeybee12]

1. Can't see it being a real big issue in 2004

The economy and the invasion of Iraq will be the two main themes.

I think what hurt Al Gore was his bending over backwards to try and to appear not too pro-gun control. His advisors told him it would hurt him, so he tried to please everyone, thereby pleasing no one.

What many politicians and thier advisors don't realize--and this amazes me, because it's basic fact of political life--is that many people will fogive your stand on a particular issue is they believe you actually believe in what you stand for.

Take a stand, be firm, don't back down.

[Withergyld]

30. What about renewal of the AWB

The AWB expires in 2004, Many in the party are pushing for it's renewal in a stronger form. I think this will really hurt the party if the AWB is renewed.

[Wcross]

32. Yes it will

The stronger form will outlaw most semi-auto shotguns. The duck hunters will love that!

[Withergyld]

37. The target

shooters also will not like all the "new" firearms covered by the stricter AWB
Page 5
"(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General."
large PDF file
http://www.banassaultweapons.org/document.cfm?documentID=3

[displacedtexan]

2. i was just discussing this in another thread...

the one about dean in politics and campaigns.

kerry wrote the original legislation for the COPS Act (100K new cops on the beat, which bush has now defunded significantly). i also read that kerry had been a prosecutor who dealt with rapists, armed robbers and mob bosses.

yes, he's a hunter, and i'm not comfortable with that, but i'm glad kerry has taken the initiative in doing something on the local level to help fight gun-related criminals.

while i hate guns, i understand the fine line candidates have to walk in regard to this issue. i think kerry has a realistic approach.

do other dem candidates have clear strategies?

[joeybee12]

4. Clinton was a hunter, also

But was seen as very pro-gun-control.

I think his was more a regional thing--must be more hunters in the South than the northeast.

My father used to hunt when I was young--I couldn't stand it and wouldn't talk to him for days after he went out.

[BeatleBoot]

3. I think there's a pretty big demographic

of men and women who would vote democratic, except for this issue.

Granted, I think the issue is overblown and that they have been scared into believing that the Dems want to take their guns away.

I do not hunt, but I'm not going to come down on someone for wanting to do it.

And I have eaten some pretty yummy venison and elk in my day!

[joeybee12]

6. Do you really think so?

I think those people will vote Repuke no matter what.

[Hubert Flottz]

17. I know lifelong Democrats who voted for Bush because of that ..

very issue! It caused WV to fall repub in 2000 for the first time in YEARS! Bush and the NRA beat this state to death with the gun issue and it payed off for them bigtime! Now the hunters who were so mad because they thought Gore would take their guns can't afford the gasoline to go hunting! Bush came to WV three times in 2000 and mr Heston came here a couple of times! I know for a fact that strong Democrat trade unionists were sucked in by the NRA attack on this state!

I even know of one union business agent that had never voted for a Repub in his life voted for Bush and his kids did too! They told me that, "NOBODY WAS GOING TO TAKE THEIR GUNS!" I'm sure that members of the guy's local union felt the same way he did about the gun issue after he made his case to them! Members of my own local told me the same thing!

I think the gun issue cost Gore at least 5 states! No single issue is important enough to risk another 4 years of Bush over! I pleaded with these people in 2000, but I wasted my breath! Gore did not make a strong statement to defend his stand on the gun issue and the Repubs did! The sportsmen of America spoke loudly and clearly though, and everyone in America is paying now! BTW, we should ask Al Gore if he thinks the NRA hurt him in 2000!

IMHO there is noone in America that would be more willing to take everyone's guns than Bushco, if the truth be told! The Gun Issue is just like the Abortion and the Bible Thumper issues to the repubs, simply tools to use to grab votes! Poppy Bush is the man that introduced 'FAMILY PLANNING' in congress years ago! The Bush Klan is for population control by any means, but they use the abortion issue as a slingshot to power, because they know the fools eat it up! If you don't believe me do a google search on 'Bush Eugenics' sometime!

[Wcross]

19. I disagree joeybee12

Why did West Virginia go red? That wasn't the norm for the state.

[Wcross]

8. My thoughts....

Gun owners couldn't help but notice the million mom march and the rhetoric from the NRA and Rosie O'Donnell. If you look at the infamous red/blue election map it seems as if rural voters either didn't vote or voted the gun issue.
My personal experience is this. I work at a unionized tire plant in Tennessee. The last election I saw very few Gore bumper stickers in the lot, I actually saw Bush stickers outnumber the Gore stickers.
I think Dean has the right stance that will win. Local laws are the way to handle gun violence. What works for Chicago or New York might not be seen as needed in Bug Scuffle, TN. (Yes that is a town near me)

[AP]

5. All I can say is, thank god this isn't part of the national debate today

[Paladin]

7. But That's The Problem

There is a group of Second Amendment Absolutists, claiming to be Democrats, who are bound and determined to make gun control a front-and-center national issue. A group of these individuals has been holding forth down the Justice/Public Safety "Gun Dungeon" for some time, now. These people want the party to make a public shift to a NRA-friendly stance on guns, and they are going to raise conspicuous hell until it happens. Just what we need......

[DoNotRefill]

43. Huh?

Most of the Gun Dungeon types seem to follow Dean on this....do what's necessary to make sure it ISN'T an issue, rather than putting forth a candidate that will GUARANTEE that it BECOMES an issue.

From my perspective, here's how it works. We can put up a candidate that goes screaming for more gun control, making it so that we're almost certain to lose the election, or we can run a candidate that says "let sleeping dogs lie", and win.

Failing to push for more bad laws isn't being "gun friendly", it's staying away from an issue that'll hurt us if we push it.

[1a2b3c]

54. Too funny Paladin

I will admit there might be some freeping going on down there, but a conspiracy of Second Amendment Absolutists? Are we a little paranoid today? The problem you have downstairs in the "gun dungeon" is democrats, or us 3rd party voters, who are getting tired of the "non conservative" party shoving worthless gun laws down our throat to cure a problem that could be better fixed with a new approach to the War on "some" Drugs and a stronger economy. You cant cure the problem by taking guns away from normal citizens, this will only piss off the "fence sitting" voters.

The NRA is about as full of shit as the VPC. They have turned into a right wing organization who doesnt really give a shit about curbing gun crimes. No one down there, atleast no one thats been down there as long as i have, has ever mentioned anything about the democrats taking an NRA-friendly possition. Why just last week we all agreed that closing the P2P sales loophole would be a good thing. I doubt the NRA would agree.

We do need a firearms friendly democratic party. I know most people might not think its true but the stance the democrats took in the 1990's did cost them a few votes. Al's campaign and distancing himself from Clinton...and that damn kiss, cost him just as many votes as stupid gun control laws did.

Assault Weapons Ban- its a joke. Anyone who has look at my threads pointing out what is and isnt an assault weapon can see that its a joke.

Strengthening the Assault weapons ban- Why? If you close the P2P loophole how does a criminal get one? They cant buy one except on the black market and there will always be guns on the black market. If a normal person wants to go buy one they still can. If you cant pass the background check...youre shit out of luck.

Ballistics Fingerprinting- Its been tried in a couple states for a few years now. Millions of dollars spent and not one single crime solved.

Registration- Why? So Bush and Company has a list of every gun owner? Good idea, lets tell them who to come get first. I would ordinarily agree with registration but California registered guns and of course the honest citizen went along with it. Then after the good guys registered California banned their guns and took them away. No thanks, you will never get me registered after that.

These are a few of what i would consider "stupid" gun control laws. The only law i see that we need nationally is a background check for all person to person sales of firearms and an updated well maintained background check system.

[Withergyld]

57. Good post

:toast:

[Paladin]

65. I Stand By My Post

n/t

[snippy]

9. I think it hurts because it appeals to democratic voters but motivates a

significant portion of the republican base in swing states. The second amendment single issue voters are extremely well organized and work relentlessly at get out the vote efforts. There are very few pro-gun control single issue voters. The result of advocating more gun control is that a few hundred more people vote democratic in a given state and tens of thousands more people vote republican.

What democrats should advocate in the upcoming election cycle is enforcing the laws which are already in effect rather than passing more gun control laws. This has been the republican position in the past and has a certain common sense appeal to many people. But the real benefit of the democrats taking this position is that it is hard to criticize and most republican candidates will say "me too." That will anger, or at least disenchant, many of the second amendment single issue voters and they will not work hard to elect those "me too" republicans. In other words, this position will deprive republicans of one of their most effective grassroots groups. The result will be fewer republican votes.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. It's a tough one.

There are an awful lot of people who may not have it as a single issue, but it could be a dealbreaker. The gun crowd is a lot bigger and better organized than the anti-gun crowd.

I suspect the don't-give-a-shit crowd is bigger still.

Some controls seem to be accepted by all but the most rabid gun types, but don't scare them that you're gonna take their guns away. Even people who don't own guns get a little bent at outright bans.

Being a city type, my personal perception of guns is that cops and crooks have them. I don't see a gun as being much of a help if I get sandbagged by a 2x4 from behind or have a knife at my throat. Or another gun pointed at me. And I get my meat at the local Stop&Shop. I'd be perfectly happy if all the guns in town disappeared-- then maybe the guy who owns the convenience store around the corner wouldn't have been shot last year.

Others have an entirely different perspective. Some have grown up with guns for hunting and varmint removal. Criminal use, protection, and all that stuff is fairly far removed from their real concerns and interests, although it pops up in discussion at times. Don't mess with their guns.

[Rashind]

14. Don't want to sound like a freeper...

And please don't hit alert on me just because I don't have a lot of posts. BUT, all the arguments in favor of gun control are complete shit. The overwhelming majority of guns used to commit violent crime are acquired and owned illegally.

Gun control isn't going to make anybody safer, it's just gonna scare the shit out of everyone who is convinced that the second they lose their gun "The King of England/The Attorney General/The Guy Down The Street Who Bought One On The Black Market/Insert Threatening Person, Realistic Or Otherwise Here" is going to come knocking on their door.

[library_max]

23. The statistics on illegal ownership are highly questionable

And even if they were true, it does nothing to answer the argument that illegal ownership still has its roots in legal sources - guns sold under the table at gun shows, bought illegally or stolen from legal private collectors, etc. And the number of gun deaths in this country is a national tragedy.

But I agree with the original poster that this issue does nothing good for us politically, not right now. I think all Democrats, pro- and anti-gun, need to agree that this stays off the agenda for the foreseeable future. That means the policy agenda, not just the campaign rhetoric, by the way. No knife-in-the-back stuff after we get into office, assuming that we do.

[Wcross]

31. I agree with your theory of illegal ownership....

We should approach it in a different manner. Tougher laws for criminal use, and misuse of firearms. It is impossible to get a handle on the 200 million + firearms in private hands. We can make possesion of a firearm by any prohibited individual a serious offense, maybe 15 years in the pen? Use the firearm while committing a crime, say 30 years? Murder someone, throw away the key.

[drdigi420]

47. outlawing guns is as useless as outlawing drugs

it wont stop the flow of guns, it will just create yet another black market for criminals to get rich on.

When are we going to learn that prohibition laws DO NOT WORK?

Illegal drugs are more available to kids because they are outlawed.

Do we really want to make the same mistake with guns?

[Wcross]

18. Rural perspective

I am in a rural area- farms and rolling hills. My nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away, there are a total of 4 deputies patrolling about 700sq miles in my county. Most every household has a gun for protection as police response times can be up to 1/2 hour. Our county had a grand total of 4 murders last year- meth makers bound, stabbed then the trailer was set on fire. I just don't see a pressing need to control something that isn't a real concern to me. On the other hand, I do see a need for a firearm to kill coyote's and as a last line of defense in the unlikley event of criminal invasion of my property or home. I have also had to confront poachers on my farm, I wouldn't do that if I was unarmed.
There is a problem with criminal homocide in our country, I don't think law making will ever stop criminals from breaking the law.

[KaraokeKarlton]

11. Pushing for gun control would KILL Democrats in 2004

See my signature...

[Wcross]

15. Thank you

I floated the thought down in the gun dungeon and there wasn't much debate- a lot of name calling and ill will. The last thing I want to see is four more years of shrub in office, I don't think our country could survive it.

P.S. Your sig line is so true!

[1a2b3c]

55. Youre sig line kicks ass. Too true. nt

[Rashind]

12. Thing is...

Do you know any single-issue voters in favor of gun control? I certainly don't. I know many single-issue voters against, though. A lot of these single-issue pro-gun voters are the poor white union or wanna-be-union voters that constitutes a huge part of the democratic "base".

Dean's stance on gun laws could be key to victory in 2004.

[Wcross]

26. Forget the base- independent voters!

A large portion of the voting public does not identify with either party. They have to be convinced to vote for our party over the repugs! Now if I had no loyalty to one party or the other and believed in gun rights, who would I vote for?

[Rashind]

27. I had "base" in quotes for a reason...

I was indicating that these are people that most dems want to assume are a "gimmie", but are in fact not, because they are afraid of gun control. It's a dealbreaker for a lot of voters. It's probably an even bigger issue to the swing voters that have been going repuke.

[Wcross]

28. I see- My bad!

The base being Union workers- I really think the gimme wasn't there this time.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Gun Control definitely played a part in Gore losing the South.

When the entire country has been conditioned to fear by Bush and his corporate media, even the perception - wrong though it may be - that the "Democrats want to take away all your guns" couldn't have worse timing than the 2004 election. Hell, I'll admit it, I've never thought more about owning a gun any time more than I have the last 3 years.

This is another reason why Howard Dean is looking like the best man for the job. Bush and the NRA lobby won't be able to shoot him down (pardon the pun)

[MrBenchley]

41. Sez who?

It's amazing that every time you see news stories saying "gun control cost the Democrats the South" the experts saying so are almost always a Republican OR some asswipe from the NRA.

[Boudicea]

52. I'm not Repub or an NRA member

I don't own a gun. But I listen to neighbors, friends, and family (I'm in TN) and that's what I hear. Call me names if it makes you feel better.

[MrBenchley]

66. That's what you hear

because that's what the NRA and the press is trying to peddle...

But go back and look at the news stories claimnig that, and you'll notice that Democrats don't say so..

[AntiCoup2K4]

56. So you're calling me a Republican NRA asswipe???

Uh, none of the above? To quote the late great Scottish-Australian philosopher Ronald Belford Scott, I never shot nobody. Don't even carry a gun....

But there were two things that the 'Pukes successfully used against Gore in the southern states. Guns & tobacco. Or more specifically, the idea that Gore wanted to wipe both from the face of the earth. Ridiculously exaggerated, just like the "Al Gore said he invented the Internet" story, but none the less effective.

[MrBenchley]

67. Were you quoted in the news stories

claiming that Al Gore lost because of guns?

"there were two things that the 'Pukes successfully used against Gore in the southern states. Guns & tobacco."
Two of the scummiest industries on earth....

[Rashind]

16. Kick

Anybody wanna defend pushing gun control in 2004?

[leesa]

20. There IS no gun control issue except in Republican propaganda

Never has been really. Just BS by the Repukes to get votes. Infact, THEY are the ones who have drafted anti-gun owner legislation. You think they want people owning guns as they try to take over the country?
Why do you think the NRA was formed but to have a list of gun-owning radicals easily available. The NRA membership list is gun registration to the max, but members seem to be too stupid to realize it. The police have access to the list according to my cop friend and these people are all "red-flagged" as he says.

[Hubert Flottz]

21. Makes sense to me!

Same with Abortion and many other things! The Repubs use these as a springboard! The average voter is as stupid as the people who don't vote! The Repubs count on stupidity and they stroke it and manage it!

[Wcross]

22. Please

I believe it had a real negitive effect on the election. I am sure the NRA is evil but what are we going to do? Who has been pushing the license and registration of gun owners? They can't exploit the issue unless we give them some basis to go on.

So are you suggesting we put the gun issue up front again and see what happens in 2004?

[Junkdrawer]

24. He he he...

Good one :thumbsup:

[DoNotRefill]

46. Sorry...The NRA was formed in 1871 as a training organization....

by a Union general who was dismayed by the poor marksmanship shown by Union troops during the Civil War.

I think your "cop friend" is pulling your leg....

[bluestateguy]

25. Democrats should be pro gun

Gun control promotes a victimology and sissy image on the Left. Whether we like it or not anti-abortion nutcases, Confederate flag waving yahoos, gay bashers and others who would violently attack people on the Left will have guns no matter what. And why should we trust John Ashcroft and George W. Bush with more powers and larger government databases to regulate gun ownership. What's to stop them from confiscating guns from everybody with a Hispanic or Arab last name? If we want to support an agenda of civil liberties that ought to mean ALL civil liberties, including gun ownership, free from government harassment. And yes, Al Gore lost a lot of votes in those states because of guns.

[Wapsie B]

29. Agree 100%.

This is not just a pragmatic view of the electorate, but a downright realistic one. Even though chimpy is without question the worst president in modern history, every vote we get will be needed to defeat him. We cannot afford to be known as the party that will take away the guns.

And really, is it about the guns? Watch Bowling for Columbine.

[mandyky]

33. One reason I am for Dean is his stance on guns

I think with Dean as the nominee, we could win many rural states we lost last election. The gun issue for many is the one issue they won't compromise about.
For anyone who doesn't know, Dean has an A rating from the NRA and beyond the Brady Bill and Assault weapon ban, Dean feels the gun laws can vary from state to state. (rural vs metro)

[MaidinVermont]

34. Just listen to hatra^h^h^h^h^h mrbenchley and reap the benefits

I'd suggest controlling criminals over guns IMHO.

[MrBenchley]

38. Might as well go to the personal attacks

It's not like you got any arguments that can fetch the sane....

[pandatimothy]

35. If Dean were to oppose renewing the "feel good" assault weapons ban

he would lock up 4 million members of the NRA and make LaPierre out to be a big partisan idiot.

[MrBenchley]

42. And he'd lose the votes of sane Americans

But hey, at least 4 million nutcases would pretend to consider him...beforre voting for the corrupt pResident Turd.

[Yupster]

36. Only a big issue to

gun enthusiasts, therefore it will hurt.

[MrBenchley]

39. Yeah, but

most of those gun enthusiasts are right wing loonies who will never vote for a Democrat....they hate blacks and gays as much as they love their guns.

[DoNotRefill]

48. Yup....that's why Dean has an "A" rating from the NRA....

If you think that those "right wing loonies who will never vote for a Democrat" and who happened to live in Vermont didn't support Dean, you're wrong...

[MrBenchley]

64. Gee, refill

Are you really pretending that Dean's support is the NRA types?

[Yupster]

49. That's a pretty broad brush

you're painting with there.

[Terwilliger]

50. that may be broad

but I doubt it's highly inaccurate

Again, not all people who own guns or believe in the primacy of the Second Amendment (still up for interpretation) are racists, homophobes, or anti-government fools who really want to tear down everything that's been built up to this point. That doesn't mean there are great percentages of the reverse.

It's not surprising that they'd vote for anyone who would "protect their guns". Libertarians say that don't like George W. Bush, but let's see what happens if the Democrat in the race has even hinted at gun-control sometime in his/her past. You will see every gun-nut in the country vote for Bush, because their guns are more important than anything else.

[MrBenchley]

63. Nope...it's an accurate picture

of the sort of loony who yowls about "gun rights"

[Wcross]

53. Isn't that a sweeping generalization?

All gun owners hate Blacks? All gun owners hate gays? What about the pink pistols? Why do all my black co-workers own guns? They don't hate themselves- lets stick to the issue my friend.

[MrBenchley]

40. Yeah, but

most of those gun enthusiasts are right wing loonies who will never vote for a Democrat....they hate blacks and gays as much as they love their guns.

[Terwilliger]

44. Who's 'us' white man?

Maybe our abandonment of minorities, gays, guaranteed wages, women, education, and all the rest will "hurt" us in 04

[Loyal]

51. What has Nader ever done for minorities and gays?

All of our candidates have done a lot more than Nader ever has. If he cares so much, he can sell his 3 million dollar house, Terwilliger. He's just like Michael Moore, making money off of the plight of the poor. Sickening.

[not systems]

45. It will help Dean...

or hurt with the rest. Kerry always bringing this up
will make sure Bush win in 2004. Gun control is just
not a popular issue in most states. Because the
electorial college over represents small red states
it is a major losser for dems.

Disclosure, I support gun right and advocate gun
ownership for all americans, I also support Dean.

[Selwynn]

58. Its one of those things you downplay in the election and then....

...do the RIGHT THING when you're elected.

Just becasue they are some right positions that aren't always the most popular posistions don't mean the positions are wrong. Downplay it through november, then do the right thing in January.

You know, progressive taxes don't play well with the rich and powerful people who exert the majority influence on elections, but guess what, its still the right thing to do. :)

Politics is about spining the right things so that they don't sound bad to the wrong people. :)

[1a2b3c]

59. So youre saying lie in November

Then piss off those who voted for you in January?

[Withergyld]

60. With the expiration of the AWB

next year, how can gun control be downplayed?

[1a2b3c]

61. I think the pukes had it planned

Someone had it planned. It expires 2 months before the election, putting gun control up front. Hopefully Dean gets the nod to take the mound and plays down the whole situation, leaving it entirely up to the states.

[Upfront]

62. I agree.