Stupid Sheeple

[BeFree]

What do Stupid Sheeple do?

They trust our governors too much.

They trust newspaper editor's opinions too much.

They do not question authority.
Stupid Sheeple give away their freedoms to others. They are more than willing to let others provide answers to the big questions facing America today. Stupid Sheeple will allow secrecy and lies to make America become a submissive, slavish community.

DU People, otoh, are a vibrant and questioning People seeking the Truth, a Truth which will ensure a more Democratic United States of America.

[DEMActivist]

1. That's the way to win friends and influence people

NOT.

Are you bucking for your own WSJ editorial?

[BeFree]

13. Not my job to win friends

My job is to fight for my freedom.

Here's another one just for you DEMActivist: Stupid Sheeple do not question how their vote is counted.

[jiacinto]

2. Get off it

People aren't stupid. Your self-righteousnesss only will reinforce what they see as liberals being elitist and arrogant.

[mhr]

4. Buck Up jiacinto - Your View is Not Shared by All

eom

[eileen_d]

14. It's shared by me.

jiacinto said it perfectly IMO. I think some "people" just like to use the word "sheeple" as an excuse to avoid dealing with other human beings.

[pnb]

88. And me as well

People use terms like that in order to try and boost their own egos by stepping on others who have the audacity to have a different opinion.

[BigDaddyLove]

96. Me too.

Ivory towers aren't the best places from which to gain an understanding of our fellow Americans' political outlook.

Further, rather than sitting in one's home bitching to the 'choir' via the internet about the ignorance of the masses, perhaps one could get off of their fat ass and try to change a mind or two.

Just a thought.

[Blitz]

99. Me too

Here's a clue for all of you revelling in your self-perceived moral and intellectual superiority. The American people know that you don't like or respect them (it's not as if you're keeping it a secret from the "sheeple"). Guess what? they don't like or respect you and yours right back. Do you really expect that Americans will submit to the power of your brilliance and support the candidate or ideas of someone who acts like the "sheeple" are a lower life form?

[BeFree]

6. The Sheeple are Stupid and any defense

of them falls into the trap in which the Sheeple are now caught.

America, the America I know and Love, is endangered because of the lack of interest and curiosity the Sheeple display.

Not only does the Sheeple state of mind threaten my America, they threaten me and my children's future. They are a clear and present danger to my freedom. This is the threat which is most important to me.

I dare say that the English King George, said pretty much the same thing as this about the American Revolution members: "Your self-righteousnesss ...<snip>.... being elitist and arrogant. "

Thank God our forefathers were elitist and arrogant!! They surely were not Stupid Sheeple.

[StClone]

9. Somebody is wrong

I often wish to believe that we have a nation filled with level-neaded thoughtful people. But that is at odds with the actions of many of Americans I see. I am left with the feeling I live with hypocrits or I have overestimated them.

[leesa]

39. Then why aren't they responding to any of the atrocities of the bush

misadministration?? They KNOW bush lied about Iraq. It is well documented everywhere. The only other conclusion to be drawn is that they are mean, hateful racists...is that better? Americans don't give a flying fuck that we murdered over ten thousand Iraqis. They don't give a flying fuck that we murdered even more Afgans in order to catch a dozen criminals. They know there were no WMDs, but they don't care. They know Saddam was not a threat but they don't care. I have never even seen ONE comment about the third worlder's we routinely murder for fun and profit. OK, they aren't stupid. They are evil, murderous thugs!

[jiacinto]

52. How self-righteous

Have you ever thought it is because the media isn't reporting the entire story?

[BeFree]

54. Blame the media, eh?

Why is it that some people who do get all their news from the media are not 'Stupid Sheeple' or part of the 'Ignorant Masses'? How do you explain that? Could it be because they are just plain 'Smart'? Or is it non-PC to call some people 'Smart'?

[Gore1FL]

75. As i stated above -- the media are Judas Goats

The people who follow are Sheeple.

This isn't an attack, it is an observational analogy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. This isn't an attack

But your line of commentary is stupid. We all know I can't say YOU are stupid because that is a personal attack.

Now you know how people react to your nice and friendly line of argument.

[Gore1FL]

98. I don't follow your logic

My line of commentary is stupid because I call people who don't think for themselves as stupipd? What other definition of stupid is there than someone can't or won't think for themselves?

Please expound/explain your logic, because I can't decipher your point.

[Gore1FL]

74. Sheep aren't stupid either

but they willingly follow Judas goats to slaughter.

That sums up Fox viewers pretty handily.

[NicoleM]

3. nice

Most people are busy working so hard to just get by, they don't have the time or energy to question authority. They're too busy living their lives to do the work that it takes to find out what's really going on. I don't fault them for that.

Not everybody has the LUXURY of having time to go looking for the truth.

[mhr]

5. NicoleM - Must Disagree, Those are Handy Excuses

used by the masses that would rather watch another round of sports, or millionaire, or some other drivel on the lobotomy box.

[NicoleM]

7. What are they supposed to do?

Where I live, people work HARD. Plenty of people work a couple of jobs. If you've got a job and kids, it's that much harder. When they have leisure time, they want to relax. Is that so wrong?

It takes time and energy to stay as informed as the average DUer. Not everybody has the same level of time and energy as we do, or if they have it they may choose to spend it another way. Again, I can't fault them for that.

Why do we expect other people to be just like us? Why do we assume we're better than them because this is what we choose to do with our time?

[mhr]

12. Democracy Demands an Informed Electorate

so said Thomas Jefferson.

These so called people are being sold down the river by the republicans.

So they choose comfort as an excuse to liberty.

What is more important, Liberty or comfort.

Instead of watching NFL, pick up a book or newspaper or magazine to find out how your leaders are screwing you.

[Mel]

25. I am one of those people

I realized what was going on working two sometimes three jobs and I'm a single mother too. I chose not to be a sheeple.

Heck, just watching the media and how they covered the Clinton years ought to of given one the clue that something was not right.

Can I be an elitist without a piece of paper? I don't think so. I just know that I'm about tired of hearing excuses not that I don't understand but it's past time to call a spade a spade.
Besides isn't it the Repuke party that yaps about personal responsibility? Well let's take em' up on it.

One way to start is by bringing back the Fairness Doctrine
they say the media is liberal then let's fix it that sword cuts both ways.

I believe a big part of taking back our country is to take back the media.

[BeFree]

34. Good on you, Mel

Way to go. You are proof that using making a living is no excuse for denying your responsibility as a citizen. It is people like you who give me hope. Thank you and Bless you.

[BeFree]

8. Excuses

Excuses are like assholes, everybody has one.

[JNelson6563]

83. same with opinions

*

[Twenty3]

44. Not all the masses

My sister's a good example. Works full-time, and is a single mom raising a 5 yr old. Her life is child and work focused, entirely. She barely has time to be good at both those jobs (and she is excellent at both, she never ceases to amaze me), much less watching TV, or educating herself about politics. It's her calling. She's making the world a better place.

We who have the time to learn all this stuff here, sort out the truth from the BS, share knowledge, maybe this is our calling, and we can help out others who don't have the time? Anyway that's how I look at it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

47. Or

would rather spend hours online playing games, downloading music or chatting with strangers. Perhaps a few less hours spent on those activities in exchange for time spent educating themselves on sites such as DU, would benefit everyone.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Or perhaps

They find those things more enjoyable than being here and running into this kind of hubris and ego.

[BigDaddyLove]

97. Excellent

post.

[AntiCoup2K4]

10. OK, I was too late for the other huge thread, so I'm jumping in here.....

It's completely true that a huge percentage of the population in this country is willfully ignorant. The fact that George Bush Jr was allowed to become pResident of the United States proves it.

I'm not talking about the Florida coup or the Supreme Court selection. I'm talking about the fact that he was the GOP nominee in the first place and then managed to get slightly less than half of the vote.

His father left this country in economic wreckage after 12 years of reckless policies designed to benefit nobody but the ultra-rich. And his daddy invaded Iraq for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with the security of the United States, but everything to do with corporate profits.

Who in the FUCKING HELL could possibly be ignorant enough to believe that his moronic son wouldn't do exactly the same things, or even worse?

A lot of people, apparently.

And if the Wall Street Journal wants to print that, please go right ahead and do so.

[MrPrax]

11. No truth dude

This is dumb...both smart and not so smart are both trapped, manipulated and abused by the same system anyhow...if anything the smart people are the one's that find rationalizations for it and 'pimp' for it's justifications and ideology, cyncically knowing it is garbage...the not so bright people just use common sense and principle to know the system is a crock

[piece sine]

15. the use of the term Sheeple

is hardly said with affection, deference or respect. It's a term of condescending derision THAT LOSES ELECTIONS! Those who utter it are PINO -- populist in name own. Ironic, in that the use of the word immediately reflects a negative elitism on the person saying it while the PEOPLE go about their busy lives.

[BeFree]

18. Sheeple

Are, imo, a threat to the United States of America, worse than any Taliban or Al queeda. If you have a better term to describe the lack of democracy in our fellow citizens, I'd like to hear it. Until then, Sheeple, it is.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Leading us to disaster

The contempt many posters here have for ordinary Americans is the kind of thinking that will lead us to disaster.

[BeFree]

17. The trap exisits because

There are too many Sheeple willing to endure it.

Being a fan of diversity, I am willing to allow that others see things in a different way than I. But there comes a time when the evidence is so overwhelming that all one has to do is to raise one's head above the grass to see that an awful storm approaches.

There are smart Sheeple, I will grant you that. And that there are crooks willing to take advantage of the Sheeple. I call them Wolves. Sheeple are not safe without a Shepherd. The problem is that the Stupid Sheeple are allowing the Wolves to become their Shepherds. How dumb is that?

[LoneStarLiberal]

16. Reporting In Worst Terms=Republican Advertisement

Just because you believe something, even something that there is quantitative evidence to believe, doesn't mean you should report it in the worst possible terms.

Most of the time I tend to agree with your point of view. But the brutal facts of the situation are that when you report this point of view in this manner you are convincing no one and bucking to end up on some Bush/Cheney 2004 propaganda about "what liberals think about YOU." That's exactly what we don't need regardless of what polls or our own evaluations of the average American voter tell us.

Instead of calling the average American voter stupid, offer up some alternatives to help educate voters (in the broadest possible sense in terms of public education reform and in the more narrow sense of campaign ethics).

Simply calling someone stupid is a great way to insure they won't listen to you. In the end statements like this only reify the problem, not offer any useful solution.

[BeFree]

20. I'm not a normal Liberal

I like to fight. I don't slink away from the field when the battle is just begining. I am not trying to win an election or make people feel good. I am pissed off at the lackadasial manner toward democracy which my fellow citizens are taking which allows such things as the Anti-Patriot Act, the invasion of Iraq, and the detruction of the biosphere to continue un-abated.

If you have a better term than Sheeple, I'd like to hear it.

[QC]

21. Calling people silly names on a message board is not fighting.

Educating the public, campaigning for progressive candidates, holding the media accountable--those things are fighting.

Calling people silly names is the tactic of the impotent.

[BeFree]

23. Me?? Impotent??

I hardly think so.....

I'll ask again... give me a better term to use. A term which connotates the utter lack of participation in democracy.

BTW: I am not fighting here. I am only trying to get people like you to realize what we face in the continuing battle to save America. I fight on the steets and in the halls of power, whenever I get a chance.

I thank God that others before me did fight, sometimes with their very lives. I can only hope it never costs me my life as it did so many of my ancestors. But the way things are going, with the Sheeple as a majority, I may have to.

[QC]

26. You can save yourself the trouble of

getting me to realize what we are up against. I live in rural Mississippi, so I am quite well aware of what reactionaries are like.

But because I live here, I am also very well aware that there are lots and lots of people who are disengaged from politics because they feel that it has nothing to do with their lives.

And to some degree they are right. When you work in a factory and both parties are pushing "free trade," you have good reason to wonder if anyone in government really cares about the circumstances of your life.

This applies to other people as well. For example, if you are struggling to get through college during a time when tuition increases of 10% a year are common, and neither party is doing anything to keep costs down or make financial aid more plentiful, then why should you get excited about politics.

If you ask me, the answer to getting these people motivated is to make politics relevant to their lives and build the media and political infrastructure needed to bring them into the process.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Everyone in America

participates in democracy. They are here. Some vote, some give money, some give time. Some do none of those things. They still participate because they still pay taxes, they still send kids to school, they still live here, they still work here.

Just because they don't do what YOU want doesn't make them any less important or active members of society. You are not king. Thank God!

[QC]

19. What are you doing to educate these people?

Calling them snide names on a message board doesn't count, by the way.

The Left in this country has done a lousy job of reaching the masses, due in large part to the condescension on such lavish display in this thread. There is no liberal media machine in this country and there is no meaningful liberal grassroots infrastructure. Can we really be so surprised, then, when most people don't know what we're all about?

[pippin]

22. Education and Media Manipulation

Not sure about "stupid." Misinformed and misdirected maybe. Never mind "trusting a newspaper editor's opinion too much--" the majority don't read newspapers at all, and we know what sort of nonsense television news delivers. DU has had endless threads about the way Fox, CNN etc., shamelessly manipulate the facts. But, some people do turn around when the facts are straightened out as in the case of the whole justification for war in Iraq.

As for giving away freedoms: something called socialization comes into play, particularly by right wing churches to unconditionally accept authority figures or institutional voices--pastors, politicians, tv anchors, radio talk show hosts etc. so yes, lots of people give away their interest AND vote against their interests--like women voting for Arnold, or working class people voting for repubs.

I tend to condemn the systemic breakdown of education (hence the ability to think critically) and the media oligarchy. The breakdown has been something I've observed that has become more evident in the last fifteen to twenty years.

[kevinc]

24. Oh boy here we go again..

Mainly because they dont think and believe the way that you are do they are stupid? Wow..to me that seems pretty stupid and very elitist..It seems to me that you are mad not that they let others do the deciding for them..it thats the "others" to do the deciding aren't the "others" that you want...just my take..

yeah maybe not all of us are super politically attuned...but most of us can tell when someone is a snot or an ass...

[BeFree]

33. Correct!!

I am mad that the 'others' in power are not the one's I want!!!

I know I am correct. The 'others' in power, are not looking out for my country. They are looking out solely for themselves. Call me an elite if you will. But, how is that any different than me calling them, Sheeple? You can't have it both ways. For one thing, you know far less about me, as an individual, as we all know about the people who are running this country.

[kevinc]

35. well see thats just it

That makes you no better than the repugs cause they will say the exact same thing about you and they are going to be mad that it is not their people in office..its things like you just said that tune folks out...but I guess you don't understand that up on your "higher plane" huh?
No you think you are elite and enlightenend, but really just lost in your own lil world where politics is the most important thing to everyone in the country..guess what it isnt. And your lil tirade isn't going to get the "others" that you want to make the descisions. You dont wnat the people to be informed..you just want them to agree with you..big difference..thats one of our problems..people are tired of us telling them "we know what is better for you"....
Again you are mad that folks dont see things your way, so of course with that being the case they must be stupid..sorry pal..it doesnt work that way..
try again

[BeFree]

41. Incorrect!

What a bunch of BS you just spewed.

You know what's better? This country is better with MORE democracy. Not less. The country is better with an informed and educated populace. I want people to become involved. I am absolutely sure that the cure for bad democracy is MORE democracy.

I wonder... do you even know what democracy means? It seems from your words that you hardly have a clue of what democracy means.

[kevinc]

42. LMAO

That takes the cake..

Who said anything about less democracy?

You are trying to prove how smart you are by belittling others that disagree with you....
And now you try to belittle me as well...You are a ignorant out of touch self deluding idiot..you are not "creating more democracy" you are alienating a whole slew of folks..

Think think
come to the real world..and get out of the clouds

[kevinc]

45. BTW

If you want more folks involved this is by no means the way to get them to see things your way..most likley you are just going to piss them off and send them to the other side just cause they dont want to associate "with the likes of you"..but again common sense and human emotion must not be a big part in your highly evolved mind huh

[LearnedHand]

27. I agree with the sentiment behind what you're saying, BeFree...

...but I also agree with what some of the others here have posted. I COMPLETELY understand your anger; I feel it too, every single day. I MARVEL at the lack of critical thinking and the lack of shame about NOT engaging in critical thinking.

However, so people won't misunderstand your intentions, maybe you could post statements expressing anger and disgust as "rants" rather than as absolute judgments of people and their motivations.

Everything you posted feels very true to me every day! I think these things to myself, and I seethe on the inside at the absolute, blind, unthinking, slavish devotion to the Man Behind the Curtain. I cannot understand why, for example, any thinking American with an IQ above 80 cannot see the inconsistency in the media's treatment of Clinton for his pecodillos and their pass-go for Ahh-nold, who ADMITTED his "bad behavior" harrassment.

Nevertheless, if we harangue about how stupid people are, we will turn them away from us in disgust rather than winning them over. Don't we know, after all, how WE OURSELVES feel about being demonized as America-haters and devil-worshippers by the Pukes, the RW media (which comprises ALL media), xian America, the WH, the pResident's cabinet, and the courts?

On edit: clarification

[BeFree]

28. Question

What is it that ya'll disagree with?

Is it the word "Stupid"? Are ya'll saying there are NO stupid people? Do you think the word should be removed from the dictionary? Hell, people have called me stupid before, and most times, they were correct.

Or is it the word "Sheeple"? For me, so far, I have not heard a better term which describes this class of citizens so bewildered and lost that they allow the present course of modern American politics to carry on as it does.

Realize this: The mindset that I call "Stupid Sheeple" is a mindset which will destroy our democracy. We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em.

[LearnedHand]

30. Personally, I think the word "sheeple"

is hilarious and completely descriptive of the mindset. I think, though, people were simply bothered by the tone of your posting.

[poskonig]

29. Blaming the voters is no excuse

for political indolence and incompetence. The Democrats poll better on all of the issues aside from defense than the Republicans, so even if the voters were hypothetically "stupid" (which they are not), they clearly agree with *US*.

We need to turnout Democrats, quit being ashamed of who we are, and get the message out for the swingies.

[msmcghee]

31. There will always be sheeple.

Not everyone thinks politics is an all-consuming passion. Most who we call sheeple just want to live their lives as comfortably as they can - and not get terribly involved in the management process.

The fault lies with the total failure of the left - especially leaders on the left - to articulate our message in a way that resonates with those who are not as engaged as we are. Instead they play politics and worry how their words and votes will play in Peoria - and take the less risky tack of reacting to the pukes rather than taking the battle to them.

But blame, like everything in life, comes in layers. Who are we that we elected such ideologically uncommitted, politics-playing, stick-their-finger-in-the-wind, dems to office?

OTOH - the right have the advantage of true-believers in office and in their base. They've poured billions into not only articulating a consistent (toxic and untrue) message (tax and spend dems, fatherly, wise protective Republicans) but they have outright purchased major media outlets and manned them with conservative spokesman to guarantee their message resonates and penetrates.

It's not that the sheeple are dumb or don't have good values - it's just that they are understandably vulnerable to the 30 year old well-orchestrated PR campaign of the right - and we offer little more than equivocation in opposition.

[QC]

37. Great answer!

The Right has spent 30 years building a media machine to carry its message to the masses. What did we do in that time?

[NicoleM]

38. Thank you

for saying it much better than I did.

[BeFree]

46. Of course... you are correct

The media has shoveled so much shit that it all is beginning to smell like flowers to the sheeple.

But the Sheeple keep electing the same representatives back into office. These same reps who pass bad anti-democratic laws which enable the media to keep shoveling. It's a vicious circle and one which we must come to terms with.

Now, I hardly watch any cable TV and the news about 3 times a week. But I know some people who rely on the media, and most of them know as much as most of us on DU. So the argument that it is totally the media's fault has a fault in it. These are people who have thrown off the media's shit and are aware of the truth. I call those people - Smart.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. Okay

So the question becomes, why does the message resonate with some and not others? I listen to the same media outlets, well as long as I can stand too, that is. I don't fall for their propaganda, and didn't even when I wasn't as politically aware as I am now. If I hear something spouted by the Media that doesn't ring true, I question it and seek the truth. I treat politicians the same way. Why are so many just willing to believe anything they are told, take it at face value even when it sounds suspicious no matter who is saying it, rather than seeking out the truth? I am having a hard time understanding why so many seem to be so gullible. So willing to believe what the media, Bush and the repubs spew forth daily without the slightest inclination on their part to question and educate themselves. Clearly the information is available to them if they seek it out. And I don't buy the explaination that many are so busy in their daily lives and just don't have the time. I am sure many here on DU have very busy lives, yet here we are. Apathy towards politicans in general may play a part and I can certainly understand that. I feel that way at times myself. However, we can't afford to give into political apathy, not at this stage of the game, if we ever could at all. Just my $.02 worth.

[BeFree]

58. Resonation

I would say that it is because some people are Smarter, but that would be non-PC and might piss someone off....so I won't say that.<g>

Your question begs an answer from those who are harping about the use of my term 'Stupid Sheeple'. And requires from all of us the answer to: Just how will we turn them around?... How will we reach those who seem to not think about the storm so ferociusly advancing at our country?

I don't have an answer. My intent in this thread was to expose the ugly sore once again, so that someone else, with far superior knowledge than little 'ol us, might find the answers to questions like yours.

Peace

[msmcghee]

59. You believe - as most here at DU believe . .

. . that the news is heard by Americans and then carefully analysed as to it's truth. And only after passing that test do we accept it.

Actually - we all have a "world view" of how we "feel" about things that happen in the news. When we hear something new - if it fits well with that emotional world-view we accept it without question.

If it collides with that world view we reject it without question. Very few of us (on the right, left or middle) have the ability to allow truth to penetrate our emotional world-view with facts.

So the battle is not about the facts, which is where the dem leadership seems to place their bets. It is about world view and that is an ideological struggle that the right has been winning by default.

Without a coherent democratic or progressive world view (like Clinton's third way) we have already lost the battle - because the sheeple (I hate that word) will accept only the facts that support (mesh with) the world-view of the right or that are spun by the right to fit that world-view - that the RW have been injecting into their minds for 30 years as described above.

Added on edit: The media are out to make money although some do have an outright RW bias. They make money by packaging current events to mesh with a particular world view - the world view of their target market. Their stories and editorials will seem true to their readers. That makes their readers feel good because it seems to them that world events mesh with that world view. It makes them feel smart and in control and less threatened by those events. Readers (of the WSJ for instance) or watchers (of FAUX news for instance) will pay a lot of money and buy a lot of sponsors' products and services for that daily reassurance that the world is unfolding the way they already knew it would.

[BeFree]

64. Good point...msmcghee

This follows with the idea of deeply held beliefs (DHB). Anything that doesn't jive with one's DHB is rejected out of hand.

But what is more intelligent.... a belief that the world is out to get you, or that the world is what you make of it? Maybe intelligence has nothing to do with it? I dunno... that's why I asked.

Surely the bad guys use the DHB that the world is out to get you as a power grabbing mechanism. But weren't we always taught that you can be anything you want to be? That goes against the world is out to get you idea. In fact, that idea has never been taught, as far as I know. So how did people get that DHB?

[msmcghee]

70. Good observations/questions.

First, I don't claim to have all (or even many of the answers). Please accept my posts as heartfelt ramblings but I don't claim that they are right, just guesses. That said . .

I don't think intelligence has much to do with it. In fact - really smart people are just better at devising intricate logical arguments to support what they already believe.

We all go around claiming that our particular pov is logically correct - and all the others are logically flawed. IMHO that's just a mind game.

Being one of the good guys, is therefore based not on logic but on having a world view that is life affirming. Politically, I believe a system that makes it possible for the greatest number of people to have happy, fulfilling lives is the best system.

That's why I support values like fairness, honesty, tolerance, inclusion and equality - the values that the dem party is (supposedly) based on.

I can say that those values feel good and feel right to me - and maybe that's as far as I need to take it. But I feel strongly enough that I'm willing to speak out whenever I get the chance. I know that most of what goes on here at DU is preaching to the choir. I do spend some time spreading the dem values message in other foruums.

I know those values feel good and right to most Americans - and that's why we should be winning this battle for the hearts and minds of America - not getting our butts kicked by the dark side - who reject these values.

That's why the dem leadership needs to start communicating symbolically - not whining about process. We need to do and say what we know is right, what feels right. We need to draw some hard lines against the selfish, brutal, destructive acts of this admininstration.

The rest of America will be with us once we start doing that with conviction - because at heart - they share our values.

Cheers

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. Thank you for your thoughtful reply

Okay I will accept your explanation of, one's world view, hence the need for what one choose to believe or not believe, having to fit that view. That is your meaning, right? I won't pretend to understand it, but I am willing accept it as a reason some are so willing to believe without questioning the facts. What I don't understand is, why some have such a limited world view, why everything has to either fit that view or be completely rejected? It would seem to me that by limiting one's self to a particular world view and rejecting anything that doesn't fit in that world view while accepting everything that does fit in that world view , they are leaving themselves open too be lead by the very sources who try to shape their world view through biased news reporting and advertising campaigns which they so willing support. Not sure if that makes any sense to you. I am not the best at trying to articulate my thoughts.

[msmcghee]

72. You're coming in loud and clear.

Yes, that's all true. But we all do it - not just the right.

We do it because we like to feel secure. Facts that fit - or are spun to fit - our world view make us feel secure.

When the world is at peace it isn't so important to us. But when events threaten us - like 9/11 - our need for security becomes our most important need. We will do almost anything to feel secure in dangerous times. Even believe that a frat-boy, dry-drunk imbecile who never worked a day in his life - is a wise leader who will deliver us from Islamic evil.

Added on edit:

Right after 9/11 virtually all but the far left became believers in sherriff Bushs* wisdom and courage to deliver us from evil.

The left - with no coherent image - were not even in the running for that badge.

Since then the Bushs* have made some errors that might cost them.

But we can't hope for Bush/Rove's* mistakes to save us. we desparately need a positive coherent message that packages our values and shows how they can be applied to solve our problems - security being the biggest of those followed by an economy spiraling into deep recession and stagnant growth for years to gone.

And we need to put those messages into a strong symbolic package - like the heroic Texas dems did recently. I think we need to pick a suitable ideological argument - and then stand up to the pukes and tell them to their face they are wrong and that we are not going to budge. We will shut down the government if necessary.

There was a movie that came out in the sixties called "Billy Jack". In one scene Billy Jack, Viet Nam vet karate expert, goes up to the bad guy (a true repuke) and says "I'm going to take my right foot and plant it in your left ear, and there's nothing you can do about it". Then, with all the bad guy's body guards standing right there, he does it.

That's what I want to see our dem leadership do to chimpy.

[Philostopher]

32. I think calling it stupidity

Lets people off too easy. Truly stupid people can't learn. They don't have the resources to find information, or the intellect to process it. Willfully ignorant people can research and think, but choose not to.

Ignorance is curable, although for people who make a deliberate choice to be ignorant it's damned hard to turn that around. And I think it's really the problem we're fighting here, not stupidity.

Ignorance is voluntary. Stupidity isn't.

[QC]

36. Why are so many people disengaged from politics?

There are lots of possible reasons.

One big problem with the sheeple argument is that it ignores them and simply assumes that people are disengaged because they are stupid. The other big problem with the sheeple argument follows from this one, namely that it offers no hope. If 50% or more of the people are just too damn stupid to recognize their own interests, then what hope is there? We might as well just abandon politics and become "sheeple" ourselves.

That's why this discussion, which seems to come up at least once a week here, seems so pointless to me.

On the other hand, if you want to talk about why people have cut themselves off from politics and what we can do to lure them back, then that's as important a subject as we could ever discuss.

[msmcghee]

40. They are not totally disengaged.

They are just not passionate about it - like us and the freepers. There's no point in railling aganst them for that. We need to be smarter about how we communicate to them. But we mostly need a message to communicate to them. That's a failure of our leadership.

They all still believe it is important enough to vote. Otherwise they'd be in that 30 percent or so that probably won't vote - and we are not concerned with them. It is those who will vote but are willing to go by whatever messages successfully get through to them on TV. Those are not intellectual messages - they are sound bytes and memorable images (memes) - like Bush* saying "Saddam's days are numbered" or the pictures of him with his "package" landing on the carrier.

The pukes (Karl Rove) are masters at this level of communication. Every appearance by Bush* (and all puke leadership for that matter) is designed to convey the consistent puke message (tax and spend dems, blame America dems, weak on defense dems as opposed to fatherly - wise protective Republicans, fiscally experienced republicans, Arab killer republicans willing to shoot first and let God sort them out).

We need to have a message and then articulate it symbolically - not intellectually - if we ever hope to reach those we call sheeple.

Added on edit: I think that's what Clinton was doing with his "third way" approach. Not many (especially sheeple) had any idea what it meant but it was memorable in that it implied a better way - beyond partisan politics - to solve our problems. That resonated with the sheeple and is one reason the pukes couldn't (remove him from office, thanks BeFree).

Our values of fairness, equality, wisely but not onerously regulated capitalism, protection of the environment etc. are good values - they are the values that most Americans agree with. We need to package those values - like Clinton did - and pay whatever it takes to get that message across.

[QC]

48. Exactly--we're not reaching people and need to consider why.

This is something every conscientious teacher deals with.

You will always have some students who simply do not care, and some others who just aren't very bright, but if I give a test and most of the class fails it, I have to consider the possibility that there was something wrong with either my presentation of the material or with the design of the test itself, for which I am also responsible.

I think there's a parallel to this discussion. If nobody gets it, then chances are that "it" wasn't presented very well.

[kevinc]

49. Thanks

Great point..others would just have you believe that Americans are stupid cause they dont share ideas and values with us...I mean if someone disagrees with the way I want to run things they must be stupid right?

[BeFree]

51. Clinton's idea, imo, was

To bring more democracy to America. And we all saw what the pukes did with that message. They don't want a democracy. Clinton was a real threat to pukes desires. And keeping the people ignorant allowed them to quash the Clinton message. BTW: Clinton was impeached, he just wasn't removed from office.

How's this folks: Instead of using the word Stupid, would you feel better if the term 'Ignorant Sheeple' were used instead? Or how about 'Ignorant Masses'? Never mind.... I see I am in the same league as Einstien when using the word Stupid. (See next post) <g>

[QC]

53. If the majority of the people are irredeemably stupid,

then what's the point of politics?

That's the real problem with the sheeple argument. It is ultimately self-defeating.

[BeFree]

56. Politics is an art

The Art of the Possible.

In order to discover what is possible, one must know what is impossible. While it may be that the Sheeple are irredeemably stupid, as you say, (I do not agree) if that is the case than we know better than to waste our time, or energy, on them.

Still haven't heard from you, QC, just what is a more PC term to use as a description of citizens who deny their responsibility to the country.

[QC]

57. I've made several posts describing those people as disengaged.

Posts that you have so far avoided responding to.

[kevinc]

60. well befree

Is comparing him/herself to einstein...so he/she must be beyond reproach...you wonder why we get classified as smug arrogant and elitest....maybe they arent far off after all..

No dont try to get the word out....just tell keep reminding ourselves how stupid common folks are...that is a surefire ticket to win elections right?

[BeFree]

66. Deleted message

<grin>

[BeFree]

61. Well, EXCUUUUUUSE ME!

Disengaged. OK, let's work with that.

"Disengaged Sheeple" doesn't quite have the ring to it as 'Stupid', imo. So far, in my mind, the best is what Einstien says about the Sheeple. But 'Disengaged" is more PC than mine or Einee's term, I must admit.

So... how do we get the Disengaged to Engage? What is it about democracy that pushes them away from a democratic engagement? Is it personal? Or what?

[QC]

62. Post 26 explains one reason why many people are disengaged.

It also proposes something we can do about it.

As I said there, a lot of people think that politics is not relevant to their lives, and in some cases they are right. When both parties are pushing "free trade," for example, a person whose job has been shipped out of the country might reasonably suspect that neither party represents him or her.

[BeFree]

65. Reasonably Suspect

What kind of dishwater is that! "Reasonably Suspect"?

Smart people KNOW that politics influences their lives. Imo, it is a total cop-out to think that a representative has no bearing or consequence in an individual's life.

But that is the crux of my statement about Stupid Sheeple. It is totally stupid to reasonably suspect that any representative in governing the country has no bearing on an individual's life. They are the rulers and they make decisions day in and day out that can destroy or lift up everyone. Therefore, they have an overwhelming bearing. That is why we need people to come to their senses and get involved.

[QC]

67. If your livelihood were snatched out from under you,

as has happened to millions, and both parties were singing the praises of job-exportation, would you feel favorably disposed toward either of them? Or would you feel helpless?

Some people respond with anger, which is great if it's directed in useful ways, and others respond with apathy. I'm more an anger man myself, but I do not feel that that makes me Einstein.

But enough of that. I'm interested in knowing what you think can be done to draw those people back into the process, whatever their reasons for dropping out. Will calling them cutesy names on a message board do the job, or should we try something else?

[BeFree]

69. What can be done?

Well, if Einstein is correct... nothing.

But sometimes calling them as you see' em can awaken folks into paying attention. Like a football coach who screams at his players as a way to motivate them, calling them by an accurate name may be of some help.

Just getting more folks to question authority would go along way. Of course, the pukes want to make it dangerous to do so, eh?

Getting people to realize that the government does play a crucial role in their lives, and that that role is presently being subverted to evil ends, is the crucial point to make.

I know kevin thinks I am so smart and all that,<g> but truth be told, I am not. I don't have the answer that will lead to a stronger, more vibrant democracy. I am hoping someone here can come up with a solution. But I do know that we, as a country, are fucked, if we don't.

The un-involved masses are key to our survival. And no, they are not reading DU so it doesn't matter what I call them.

Got to run. C'ya

[kevinc]

63. Well first you have to convince them

That politics is important to them...
tell them that it indeed will affect their children give them the issues and elaborate..not just say the Repukes are bad....you have to get them interested not insult them...



I guess common sense, like I said earlier isn't needed in your "higher plane"

[msmcghee]

92. Communcate symbolically. Stand on principle.

Fight back even if it takes risk. We will lose some. That's not important. Showing courage and determination is the message we need to send.

Bush/Rove show determination (and many disengaged sheeple even believe that shows courage).

The difference is our courage and determination can fight for values that all American's believe in - not pre-emptive war against non-threats, tax breaks for the rich, tax support for religion and trashing the environment.

On edit: I wrote this post in reponse to a message in this thread - but I posted it in the wrong place and I can't find the message it was supposed to reply to. Sorry.

[bring_em_home_bush]

43. ~

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein

[msmcghee]

50. Strategy

This thread really has me going. Please excuse this rambling follow-up to post 40 above.

Symbolic message management.

I think that's what Clinton was doing with his "third way" approach. Not many (especially sheeple) had any idea what "third-way" meant but it was memorable in that it implied a better way - beyond partisan politics - to solve our problems. Two words - easily remembered - packed with symbolism.

That was genius. He took the bitter partisanship that the pukes were spewing and turned it back against them. Not by calling them names or whining that they were destroying our democratic process - but by understanding that almost everyone in America (even pukes) knew this was happening and were at least a little worried about it.

He took an emotion that already existed in the minds of all Americans and attached his political message to it - and rode that connection to two terms - right in the face of the most outrageous -over-the-line relentless attacks by the pukes. That message resonated with the sheeple and is one reason the pukes couldn't remove him from office. What made it genius is that the more enraged and partisan the pukes became - the more sensible a "third way" seemed to "feel" to the sheeple.

Now look at what Rove is doing. He's taken the image of Saddam Hussein standing on a balcony and firing his shotgun into the air, the image of the WTC towers spewing flame and collapsing while killing 3000 innocent Americans. Those are so-powerful images. He's attached his political message to them and is attempting to ride those images to his second term.

But it seems lately that they have made some monumental blunders - that might result in Bush's* defeat in 2004. But Rove still has many cards to play. Does anyone believe that the sheeple will remember these (inside politics) mistakes when Bush* miraculously finds Saddam or Osama 30 days before the election?

They didn't remember Clinton's "don't ask - don't tell" or his and Hillary's health care debacle.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

71. Messageboard Mensas

I just love the pure genius of messageboard posters. That is why I always agree with messageboard posters. I do not question the messageboard geniuses. That way, I can be sure that I am not a sheep.

If it is on the internet, it must be true.

[oasis]

73. Sheeple = pod people of "the bodysnatchers". They slept and Rove took over

their power to think for themselves.

[Rex]

76. Sheeple is a funny word, it makes PC peeple cry "fowl"!

IMHO it's a lot nicer than calling them 'unwashed masses' or 'meat eaters'. ;)

[BiggJawn]

77. I don't know if I agree with the statement about "DU People", but...

Stupid sheeple DO give it all away in exchange for what Franklin called "the Illusion of Safety".

The "I don't care if there's Orangutang genes in my potatoes, so long as my Fries are YUMMY!" mindset.

And these Sheeple will never vote (IF they vote at all!) any way other than what that nice, pretty girl with the bouncy boobs on FoxNews (They're "Fair and Balanced", didja know that?)tells them to vote, so no I'm *NOT* afraid that I'm scaring off the flighty mythical "swing voters"...

[cthrumatrix]

78. People are a "product of their environment" ....good and bad

What has made truth a premium in this parade for power and greed has been the complicit "media".

The media has misdirected, coached, persuaded the people to grasp the will of the corporations that have benefited from the looting of our treasury and no-bid contracts.

Arnie's campaign could not have been a more perfect example.

[marley]

84. Well,

It's a good thing all the enlightened people are here, now it's just a matter of learning how to manipulate the "sheeple" like the repugs have done.

[BeFree]

85. Manipulate the Sheeple?

No....We just want them to become informed and begin to think about things, not just take the word of the leaders and the media whores. We need the 'Disengaged' to become Engaged in democracy.

Simple things like energy use, nuclear weapons, and how America is perceived in the rest of the world, are issues which require a thougtfull people thinking things through to logical conclusions. It is a process, mind you, that is not taking place today. Too many of our fellow citizens are allowing special interests to make crucial, life draining decisions for them without the people's informed consent. We don't want to manipulate them, we just want democracy.

[undergroundpanther]

86. People

Sure some people don't give a shit,until it hurts them,themself. There will always be socilized sociopaths in our societies ,until as a culture we stop admiring them and aping thewm and putting them into positions of power and buying into thier charisma and seeking thier symbolic power...Why do we admire bullies? Is it because our social system in iit's struggle against the human condition on some level traumatizes the human spirit.And is it this"sick self" inside people that urges people to identify with a bully,especially one who is the right combinsation of dominant threat and illusion of security?
We can do the the world's out to get us,or the world it what you make it routine,but it does NOTHING to stop the immediate suffering.
As for symbols,what in us makes us cling to symbolic leaders?
Why can't people see through the show and refuse to be seduced by symbols? Why can't people seperate the symbol from the person,from the policy?


Also one thing about Dean and Clark...

You got the Doctor and the General.

Fight or heal.

You got the choice of a non-violent father general to defend the adult- child public from republican predation while they are scared of swarthy people gays and terrists..or You got the Doctor to help the adult child public,clean thier wounds and heal after the bully bush boys have beaten the stuffings out of this country and taken all our lunch money.
Talk about symbols,These are the symbols the dems offer. Peaceful General and Doctor.This is why allegedly only Dean and Clark seem to get the most attention.

Bush and his chronies are a bully cabal beating up the nation and we take it.Are we betting that the nation can only maintain a stiff upper lip for so long? Will they will turn left and seek shelter? Will they seek shelter behind the leg of another"strongman" father willing to fight the bushes? Or will they seek shelter in a nurturing man who will help them recover from the damages from the abuse of bush,and get them to kiss and make up with government,by presenting the public with a few"gifts" (natl.heathcare ect.),making all appear happy on the surface until the cycle begins anew and it comes to blows.
Will they be able to STEP outside this ages old abusive dynamic in societies ,symboliized by thier leaders time and time again and vote thier consience and find thier own interests and become the strong leader inside themself?

The bottom line to me is how bad does Bush's policies hurt john Q public personally? Does it hurt him enough to step outside his comfort zones and the familiar? How long will he go on being entranced by the strong daddy symbol until he realizes this symbolic parent in government currently is abusing the crap outta him?
How much pain is he willing to endure because he wants to feel secure or tough in the face of the"other" and get rid of his own guilts?(and why do we do this anyway?) And how long do we who have grown more psychologically have to wait until the "masses" work out thier psychological issues,and start voting for policies,not personalities or symbols,when alot of the population still does everything in thier power to avoid looking at themselves and using thier own autonomous power to effect changes.
It isn't because some people are stupid,this shit happens over and over with the Right wing,it's because people are emotionally messed up and traumatized to the point the will identify thier own interests with those who are social exploiters and give them power,entranced by the symbol as they avoid the reality of what's happening that is too painful to look at.

Denial it is said is a kind of dissociation. And in MHO, Our entire culture is so fragmented ,compartmentalized ,avoidant and symbol ridden it is no suprize to me people blithely vote for symbolic leaders to representv them instead of knowing thier own interests and representing it themselves for themselves as in a government for and by the people.Society is messed up because a large population of people in it are messed up.It doesen't matter if they see how messed up they are or not.It seems like our culture is a reflection of our collective mass mental illnesses,and our politics is a way for us to symbolize what is going on inside us,like forming a 'parental'symbolic awareness mirror of various functions, ego and shadow..of an entire populace.

If you can psychologically heal individual people for real.People might not be so profitable.They might ask alot of sticky questions of these "leaders" and demand more out of them.They might feel happiness instead of being content to persue it or think the mall holds the answer anymore.They might become unaddicted. They might not want to work all the time or conform to what 'society' wants,and society might stop insisting on conformity.They might not want what 'leaders' want.They might just not participate in thier own exploitation.They might value other things than what they are taught to value nowadays.They might accept thier kids as autonomous individuals in need of support and guidance instead of mini me's.People might prefer a different way to live than what we have now and would set about changing for thier own interests,and other people might like thier ideas and society as we know it would change from the inside out.
For some other people it's in THIER selfish interest that the populace stay sick in the head as individuals on some level (and raise thier kids in a sick way)because these 'symbolic' leaders ,and exploiters are the ones who benifiet most from a sick culture that never grows up,becomes self actualized and transcends thier own sick limitations on thier own perceptions to some extent.

How willing are the masses of people that make up our culture willing to face themselves,accept themselves,know themselves ,heal themselves, quit running away, and grow up,psychologically,spiritually or relationally is the question .

When I hear people make fun of Kucunich's idea of a department of peace I can't help buy see how people are unwilling to learn conflict resolution and heal this nations wounds by healing thier own,I see people who'd rather keep the status quo and do the same old thing that doesen't work and hasen't worked rather than try something new that might actually heal this culture by healing the sick individuals within it who are so convinced of thier"normalicy as if normal means anything of value.

[BeFree]

89. Hey, Panther

Whilst some of your post is hard to read, due to certain incongruities, your thoughts are most observant. Self-healing needs to take place, indeed. Speaking for myself, the self-healing I have experienced comes first from a self-examination. Then a self-forgiveness is enabled which leads to growth.

Can the Sheeple ever begin the self-examination process? Most smart people I know can, and do. To me, this awareness, which is the basis of growth, is what democracy is all about. Without awareness everything becomes republican.

[undergroundpanther]

93. Be Free

I think you got the gist of my post,almost.
When I was writing the stuff about Dean and Clark as "The peaceful General"who fights the badguys and "The Doctor who heals the John Q.public causalties of the Bush administration.." and that "Strong Father figure" stuff was because I was referring to an unconsious social symbolic perception working on our society that alot of people have inside thier minds that confuse them concerning what they think they want from these 'leaders'they elect.

It's an unconsious irrationale going on in our society,lurking underneath the consiousness and the obvious postures and talk of politics..It's a symbol -language of the unconsious.And There are certain symbols being embodied by certain people with thier eyes set on the white house.There is also another symbol image bush is posing into to stay in power.Certain segments of the population crave a certain image out of leaders.If the leader fails to meet that unconsious expectation,they won't get the voter support en masses.This symbol -language has very little to do with what a leader says or does politically in real life ,until the hardships of real life done by a 'leader'eclipses the image that got him elected and a new symbolic leader is sought.
To beat bush,a dem has to be a better image of a father figure (without admitting it to anyone)than bush is and be ready to fill a symbolic need the people have than he'll"click" with the voters..Or the rival Dem can play the role of the father to the people that bush can't.This will be more difficult,unless Bush loses his "strong" appeal to the people.One way this happens is because he isn't listening to thier unconsious messages so his image isn't convincing anymore..


I myself have a very hard time conveying my inner observations to people online with type alone.It's not thier fault they don't understand me,and it's not all my fault they don't either,
It's the damn limits of online text that makes it so hard I guess.It's not so much that my concepts are nonsensical,when I speak it to people they understand it.When I demonstrate it,the get it and run with it..It's just that in type it's so very hard for me to wrap understandable words around these complex dynamics.What I see going on with people isn't easy to put in a simple to the point short post,because the topic itself is fluid,dynamic and shifting with many angles and points.

What I'm attempting to write about is an unconsious meta-process/dynamic interaction going on here..Alot of people I talk to don't consiously know how to consider these kinds of unconsious social processes in individuals as something that can shape societies opinions of it's leaders.
There is a mental block with people that sometimes interferes with understanding the dynamics of political issues. When it comes to really understanding why people do stuff that doesen't make sense politically,like why on Earth would working class people vote Bush when Bush screws them up so bad.

I suspect there must be something else going on here..because people are not THAT stupid,there is self interest and it's being thwarted by something deeper than the surface.I suspect it's a symbolic language that has a pre-consious appeal that goes beyond surface logic and into they workings of unconsious symbol and archetypes that bush is exploiting in people.To stop Bush one would be wise to look into this symbolic motivation in people and the social dynamics of it..

Language and words.. for all thier blessings it is such a fuckin'headache for me to convery things sometimes.Words are crappy tools for converying an experince to someone else because an experince is so complex..but words are all we got.

[bitchkitty]

87. Being fond of oneself is a good thing.

But referring to most of the voting public in such a derogatory fashion is a losing strategy.

[BeFree]

90. Show me where I say "MOST OF THE VOTING PUBLIC"

Actually, I doubt that most of the Sheeple even vote. My beef with them goes beyond whether or not they vote. I actually prefer that since they know so little, and are not otherwise participating in the rest, they do not vote.

Somehow my message has been poorly communicated. My bad. Allow me to try again:

Due to the Sheeple's stupidly inspired non-involvement, in American democracy, our democracy is doomed.

No one here has disagreed with that idea, have they?.

[bitchkitty]

94. Sorry, I thought you were talking

about the average American, which would be most of the voting public, wouldn't they? Didn't mean to offend, you don't have to YELL.

[rman]

91. it's not a strategy. it's an observation

The cause isn't so much with people themselves; poor education and a manipulating media are instrumental here.

How else would you explain that about half the people think WMDs are found in Iraq and that Saddam had to do with 9-11?
People watch TV 24/7, yet they are not all very well informed, are they?

[Rowdyboy]

95. Thanks for deigning to help educate the unenlightened...

We need the depth and insight of your observations now as never before. Your concise analysis stuns with its intensity. Lets insult the common folk by calling them names until they clearly see we are right. Brilliant thesis! Wish I'd thought of it!