Hidden Wounds (Date Rape)

[cally]

When I finally realized that Arnie was my next Governor, I obviously was dismayed at the takeover of a legitimate election. Even more so, I have profound worry that women just lost many of the gains of the last 30 to 40 years. When I started working 25 years ago, many thought that women should just accept the groping of men. I was told repeatedly, usually by women, that there was nothing I could do. It was part of the job which I refused to accept. One of the first issues I worked on was to make it illegal for a man to rape his wife. Under most state laws, a man could not be prosecuted for raping his wife. It did not matter if they had been separated for 20 years, he still had the right to rape his wife. Date rape was a new concept but very real. All of us can tell stories. Slowly the laws changed, attitudes changed, and women got rights to their own bodies. I fear we are facing a backlash.

Oct. 10 — This is a story about something that, according to the law, didn’t exist in the 1970s. It’s a story that relates to our now-more-enlightened view of a woman’s right to say no to a man at any point during a sexual encounter, and his obligation to back off when she does.

IT RELATES TO WHAT we have started hearing about Kobe Bryant’s accuser, and what we will probably hear more of—that she didn’t have any noticeable bruises around her neck or show any signs of a violent struggle.






This is a story about another young girl, who had just turned 20 in the promiscuous, free-love ’70s and found herself beneath a man’s body—saying no in a raspy, struggling voice, which was all the voice she could muster. Maybe he didn’t hear; maybe he did and didn’t care. Either way, he didn’t stop.
I was in college in Los Angeles, and I met a man a few years older who worked in Hollywood, not as an actor but in the business end of the acting world. We flirted, we had coffee a couple of times, and then we went on a date. It would be our only date. Some things, this many years later, aren’t clear—like why I went to his apartment instead of having him come get me. It could have been because I shared a one-bedroom apartment just off campus with a roommate, and I figured he and I might end up having sex that night. It was, as I said, the ’70s—looser, freer, no worries about AIDS. At 20, I believed I knew what I was doing. We all think that at 20. It’s only later, when years have humbled us and educated us, that we look back and realize how young 20 really is.

edited to add link:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/978879.asp?0cv=KB20

[Southsideirish]

1. Similar thing almost happened to a friend of mine.

The only thing that saved her was an extremely tight girdle which she poured herself into in order to wear the "Twiggy" type dresses that we all wore at the time. As she had a hell of a time getting into and out of it - when he pounced on her in her apt. and tackled her to the floor - no way could he pull it down.
He left black and blue gouge marks on her neck but in the end she hit him over the head with a Coke bottle (she had just gone into the kitchen and brough it to him...)then he cursed her and skulked out. This was in the late '60's. Ever since I thought maybe wearing a very tight girdle could be a good thing for women.

[Mz Pip]

2. When I was in college

back in the late 60s I had a fried who would were 2 girdles when she went to frat parties. She didn't do it to look thin, she did it to keep creeps out.

It's amazing what women feel they have to do to keep themselves safe.

MzPip
:dem:

[cally]

3. so...noone wants to discuss date rape

I've seen so many comments on this board that it is the woman's fault. She went to the guy's hotel room alone. She went to his apartment. She got drunk. I've always wondered what the standards are? How do you date in this era without being alone with a man or woman? What are the dating dos and don'ts that make sense?

[rasputin1952]

9. A 'no' is a NO...

it is that simple.

Any male that cannot understand that, and keeps at it, is not a man.

A forced sexual act is rape. After all is said and done, it is another way to degrade women, and cannot be tolerated. I have no problem with conxensual sex; but I have as big a problem with women who falsely accuse an individual of rape as well.

In either case, it is a despicable situation.

[Nobody]

18. The world runs on Microsoft Software Licensing Agreements

The ones that begin like this:

By opening this package, the user agrees to the following...

Here's the date rapist's attitude:

By agreeing to go out with the Male, the Female has also agreed that the Male is entitled to access any part of the Female's Anatomy as the Male sees fit and is obligated to accede to any request of such nature by the Male if he has contributed more than 50% to the cost of the date. Should the Female be wearing anything more revealing than a Burqa, the Female is responsible for any involuntary actions of the Male's anatomy and is required to ensure that such occurrences are not left Unresolved. The Female, should she happen to have made a prior agreement to allow access to her most intimate anatomy, has granted access in perpetuity which cannot be revoked.

Translation: All women are whores and if I pay for her meal and movie, she better put out. If she says yes once to me, that yes is good forever.

That attitude permeates society. There's been surveys of college students where even women think it's OK for a man to expect sex if he pays for the date. And the percentage of men who think it's OK to force the issue if she had consensual sex with him previously is just frightening.

[realFedUp]

4. the lack of posts shouldn't stop us from talking about this subject

Thanks for posting it.

[salin]

5. agreed.

My story is different, but in someways the same.

Back in the nineties I was asked to review some pamplets a state legislture was distributing on Date Rape.

Funny but it was geared towards girls/women with advice like: always have a quarter for a phone call (pre cell phones). Subtle text was be prepared, be wise... AND if it does happen it will be because you weren't prepared ... or wise.

There was no pamphlet for parents to discuss these issues with their young boys. There was no pamphlet for boys/men at all.

The whole exercise was futile, in that noone was going to 'get' the critique we were offering.

There are false accusals - but there are many more instances of unreported rape. Yet for a strange reason, many discussions here, center on the false accusals - and work from it as the working assumption.

We have come a long way, babies... but we still have a long way to go.

[cally]

7. It still happens

Most know that I have two teen daughters and I am a feminist. It's been interesting watching how my peers raise their sons. They do emphasize feminism and respect, but there is so much pressure to ignore it. By some odd circumstance, my closest feminist friends have sons who are jocks. I am so scared about the training they are getting about women. Not by my friends, but from the community.

These younb men are resisting it. I love these teens and they are so respectful to my young women. But all tell the stories of the disrepect of females. If they don't join in they are called "gay" as if some how that demeaning women means you are heterosexual.

[neebob]

8. I am constantly on my 14-year-old son

who is unusually tall and good looking and suddenly seems to have a lot of girls after him, about not taking advantage of them and paying attention to something other than their looks and being a role model for his friends and resisting the urge to pair off and if he must, picking one who's smart and funny and genuinely interested in him as a person and blah blah blah.

The gay thing drives me nuts. In my son's crowd it seems to be more about conformity in general than girls. If you do thing A instead of thing B or you don't wear this or listen to that, you're gay. Of course I'm not deluded enough to think my son would tell me if his friends - most of whom seem to be more interested in girls than my son (he's totally into BMXing and snowboarding) - were encouraging demeaning behavior toward girls.

[Mz Pip]

17. I have 2 sons

and I raised them to be feminists.

There are so many mixed messages that both boys and girls receive. I work in a high school and over the years I have seen so many young woman so along with the sex because they think that is what they have to do to get a boy friend. They say "yes" but really don't want to. I told my guys that. I told them that sometimes yes doesn't really mean yes so take the time to get to know someone and be thoughtful and communicative.

The flip side of that occurred when my older son was in college. He actually got razzed by other guys because he refused to take advantage of the girls who got drunk at parties and threw themselves at him. He got called "fag" for respecting women. It really pissed him off. Having sex with a drunk woman was not his idea of a meaningful relationship. He's 26 now and has been in a long term relationship with a woman who had guys take advantage of her, had a date rape drug put in her drink, in addition to some other creepy stuff. She seemed to appreciate that my son took the time to get to know her.

Why guys think it's ok to hit on a woman they've known for 5 minutes is beyond me. Goes the same for women too. I do think that women need to be careful about putting themselves into situations that might later on lead to regret. But lack of common sense is not an invitation to rape.

MzPip
:dem:

[Cheswick2.0]

12. "There was no pamphlet for boys/men at all."

Of course and that is the problem.

[neebob]

6. Speaking of Kobe Bryant's accuser

They keep harping on how she said "no," as if saying no is somehow more definite than squirming and crying and stuff. So every young, inexperienced girl who winds up alone with some charming, charismatic, powerful man and it turns ugly is supposed to remember, "I must say no." And then later, when everybody is asking why she went there and what she was wearing and how much she'd had to drink and how many others she'd been with and whether she'd ever taking medication or attempted suicide, she can report the number of times she said "no."

I find it maddening, too, that women are willing to overlook Arnold's and other famous men's "indiscretions" and often jump on the bandwagon, questioning the motives and behavior of their "alleged" victims. I saw some footage of Arnold leering and practically drooling over the shoulders of a woman who was interviewing him. Ugh. How anyone can doubt the accusations after watching that is a total mystery to me.

To your point about all of us being able to tell stories, I have one. When I was in my early twenties, a friend and I woke up with a couple of salesmen in a hotel room, miles away from the bar we started at, with no memory of how we got there or what happened. I was naked, and the spaghetti straps were ripped off the camisole my friend was wearing. Yes, we had a lot to drink, but no more than usual, and neither of us remembered anything. Not a scrap after sitting at the bar, drinking kamikazes.

They seemed like nice guys and were perfectly gracious and told us what happened (supposedly) and offered us a ride. I was like, "No thanks, we'll just walk to to my car," which I thought was across the street. "Where do you think you are?" the guy asked. Then he told me we were at a hotel near the airport. I've often wondered if we were drugged.

A few months later, one of the guys tried to pick me up at the same bar, and he got pretty nasty when I refused his invitation.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. I would say chances are you were drugged

I am sorry that happened to you. To imagine that clueless creep had the nerve to hit on you again.

[JasonBerry]

10. Excellent!

Great post! I have to agree that too many men get away with RAPE (call it what it is) because they simply refuse to not only accept, but believe that "NO" could possibly mean "NO." With Britney and so many others portraying women as mere objects - and sluts - a lot of guys just don't get it that not all women want to screw around on the first date. The attitude is like Gasp! Imagine a woman not wanting to be with ME! They force the issue (among other things) and it proceeds to RAPE. I especially liked the last paragraph of the article - "Some injuries don’t show up in photographs. Some wounds aren’t physical at all. If we really have become more enlightened over all these decades, those invisible wounds, the injuries that live in the shadows might be brought out in the courtroom, too."

Thanks for the post.

[Clete]

11. Good post Cally.

I too was a young woman in the sixties and seventies and put up with so much of this shit. First it was Professor Dirty Mouth in the department I was working in at UCLA. He subjected me to the most vulgar, unfunny jokes on a day to day basis although I tried to ignore him even walking away from him to the ladies room if I could. I finally quit because I couldn't get personnel to listen to me. They offered to move me to another department, but because my department started giving me bad references, no doubt on his instructions, no one wanted me

Next it was Mr. Three Martini Lunch at a bank I worked at. When he came back from lunch, he insisted that we had some work to do in the vault. This would be an hour of me fending off his attacks of trying to kiss and grope me. Again personnel wouldn't listen to me. I was the eighth secretary he had in one year for the same reason. They told me I would have to put up with it or leave because they were tired of supplying him with secretaries. The situation ended with me hitting him in the face with a large stapler. He of course demanded that I be fired and charged with assault.

Fortunately, our manager, who eventually went on to become the CEO of the bank, did listen to me when he called me in to explain myself. Although this person, a married man, was well known for having adulterous affairs, he actually sympathized with me because he knew the difference between consensual sex and forced sex. He gave me a different job and told Three Martini Lunch that he was going to have to do his own typing, phone answering and other secretarial work from then on. Also, he convinced him not to press charges against me.

Well, each subsequent job had its resident masher. It stopped when I became engaged and informed each man who attempted to grope me that I would be telling my fiance what he did.

[JasonBerry]

13. You ended up with a good manager!

I actually saw this kind of thing quite often. I did some work as a print model and I also did commercial work and industrial films. So, I worked around a lot of nice looking ladies. Many of the guys I worked with were gay and they were almost always good with the girls. But, many were straight - like me. Well, I saw so many of them thinking that this girl or that girl would just fall in love with them at the drop of a hat. WRONG. In fact, I was asked out by a lady I was always intrigued with; and on our date she told me that she asked me out because I was one of the only guys who hadn't come on to her with ego and expectations. I took that as a compliment. Alas, she turned out to be a rabid right-winger and we never saw eye to eye on very many issues of the day. But, she was a nice person and like so many, was ALWAYS being hassled. I really do think that wayyy too many guys who are halfway decent looking think they are the gift to women that no woman could POSSIBLY resist. It is this type of man that draws the picture for so many women that ALL men are like that. Trust me, we aren't. With that said, there are still too many that are and get away with too much crap - especially in the workplace.

[Clete]

14. LOL

I wish it had been the better looking ones although I wouldn't have been any less insulted. Instead it was the fifty plus married creeps who were the worst offenders

[Nobody]

15. What a commentary on our so-called modern world

"Well, each subsequent job had its resident masher. It stopped when I became engaged and informed each man who attempted to grope me that I would be telling my fiance what he did."

As soon as these prehistoric relics hear that they might be infringing on some other male's property rights, they leave you alone? Your refusing them isn't good enough?

News flash for these not yet human primates: Women are not property. Women are people. When a woman tells you to back off, you'd better.

That's what pisses me off. You shouldn't have to have a bodyguard, even a remote one in the form of a fiance. You shouldn't have to be on double red alert every time the sun goes down. You shouldn't have to be cross examined and second guessed about what you were wearing, who else you were with, did you smile at anyone, did you have a glass of wine.

Rape is the one crime that is totally without justification and it is also the one crime that leads to the victims being blamed more than the criminal who committed the rape.

[cally]

16. Confession time

I've been to a male co-worker's hotel room alone. I've been to a male's dorm room alone. I've been to many mens' apartments alone. I've worked with males alone. I've even argued and won with 15 + men in the room alone and "gasp" I have not been raped.

My point is that being alone with a man does not lead to rape. Real men do not rape women.
It is not the women's fault.

I do think there is much to teach our daughters but real men do not rape women.

[patdem]

19. Women can pretend all they want..but sex is a very powerful motivator

I find it strange that the pics of women are of the 'strong but sexy' type. I am in no way an xian but I do believe that a woman can dress in a 'sexy way' to attract the 'wrong' type of man.

I was raped when I was 11. My rapers said I told them I was 16, maybe the clothes I wore made them think I was 16, cause I hung out with an older girlfriend and maybe looked older than I was. No excuse for the rape, but at least a way to understand how it could have been prevented.

I was 'raped' again at about 28. My friends husband came into my apartment while I was cleaning..and he refused to leave...so I went about cleaning ...only I was wearing daisy duke shorts...not for him...but because it was hot...and he got hot...and decided that I was not cleaning but enticing him to have sex. I called out to a neighbor across the hall..a policeman, I locked myself in the bathroom which he broke the door down, yet I still feel...If I had not worn those shorts that day, and not turned my back on him...to make him leave, and really made him more horney...maybe he would not have done it...I have NEVER worn shorts since then and I have worn nothing but long pants, long skirts and long sleeves and high collars since then, and I have not been raped since!!!

[Clete]

20. That's what the defense does, they blame the victim.

I don't think your shorts had anything to do with. The fact that you haven't been raped since is because you no doubt are more cautious about your surroundings. I got sexually battered wearing very conservative business clothes. It's because I was an available female in a situation I couldn't avoid and they could do this with out censure. There is still a wink, wink perception out there about boys behaving badly.

I mean Arnold attacked women wearing stinky, baggy work clothes like the behind the scenes people do on movies sets. One stunt woman was dressed as a twelve year old boy. How unsexy is that unless he is a closet pedophile as well.

[cally]

21. Why men rape

Patdem you have gone through some horific episodes that I have not.
All I can offer is infomation that I have read and heard from my peers. Rape is not about sex but about power. You can wear anything, act any which way, and still be raped. It is not your fault at all. It does not matter what you wear, how you wear it, or your age. It does matter about your vulnerability. I think all women are vulnerable but did you know that the least likely victims are groups of women? Read my post above, I have done all the mistakes they tell us not to. I survived because I was lucky.

You are not at fault. Women wear sack cloths and are still rapes. We have to band together and protect each other.

[JasonBerry]

22. PatDem

From a guy -

I honestly hate to hear how these BASTARDS have caused you to think what you were wearing brought on your rape. I know the emotional impact must have been -- and is -- horrible. But, I would hope that with encouragement from a lot of friends here at DU, and maybe some friends where you live, that you could get past the point of thinking anything you did caused the rape - because it did not. You should be able to wear what you want to wear without feeling like you are putting on a bullseye. You are worthy and have every right to be a human being and wear what is comfortable without worrying about what monsters might do. YOU did NOT cause your rape. I wish I could reach out and hug you - or at least fit a hug in the email. A friendly hug to say, "I care."

[spooky3]

24. If rape were about clothes, women would never go to the beach.

JasonBerry's post says it all--great post, Jason!

[patdem]

23. You people are making me cry...I got over it..now I am revisiting it

I remember when I was raped when I was 11 and the police called my mother to pick me up...her first words were 'Katherine how can you do this to me?'... when we got home she instructed me to go to the shower and 'wash the filth off my body'

I had to pick out the men who raped me from a line up and had to go to court and listen to them lie about what happened. The only thing I recall is hurting when the person was raping me and waking up and seeing where the car was...it turned out to be in a city next to my own.

I remember I was sent to see a shrink and I recall feeling about 3" tall sitting in the chair and they wanted me to go to group therapy...I failed all therapy and my parents just pulled me out?

I ran away from home to avoid the court case, and ran away again at age 13 and my mother declared that I was incouragble and asked that I be sent to reform school, which I was. I got out at age 14, went back at age 15 when my probation officer promised me she would suggest a foster home and not send me back..oh well she lied just to get me into the court room. I hit a girl and was put into isolation for 10 days and when the house mother called the head of the reform school to ask when I would be released, the head of the school had forgotten about me..and I was released that day.

I have since seen girls who were 11 years old and think...gosh they are children!!

[Clete]

25. I apologize if we have been insensitive.

Eleven year old girls ARE children. It's not your fault and you have been made to feel quilty about this. I think therapy with the right psychologist would help you sort out these feelings. I wish the best for you and hope your future will be bright.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rasputin1952]

28. I find it difficult to comment...

You were not in any way to be faulted for what happened, and I hope that the emotional scar will indeed cease to hurt.

I find it particularly disturbing that your mother would treat you like that. I would be going to the wall for my kids if anything like that ever happened.

For all you've been through, you have apparently conquered the demons of your past, and may you live a life that is not composed of fear and hatred.

For all of those out there who are in pain, physically or emotionally, I cannot tell you how much I would like to alleviate that pain, but I am a mere mortal, and can only offer hope and sympathy.

:hug:

[Cheswick2.0]

34. That wish to comfort is so important to us as survivors of sexual abuse

I saw a very powerful news magazine show about a predominantly African American Church where they had a service (I think it is a regular event) where the men would encourage the women to open up and tell them about their anger and betrayal. They would listen until the women were expressing their real feelings, then they would hug them while they cried or raged and just keep saying how sorry they were.... "I am sorry, I am so sorry, it was wrong, you didn't deserve it". And this wasn't just about sexual abuse, but about physical abuse in marriage and men who walked out leaving them in poverty with children to raise alone. It was incredibly powerful. For many of those women, it was the first time they had someone apologize to them or comforted them for what they endured.

So I just want you to know that having men listen, understand and care is very meaningful.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. Oh Sweetie, you were just a little girl

You were punished for being raped and you have continued to punish yourself by taking responsibility. How terrible and frankly unforgivable that the system didn't do better for you than that. Of course 11 year olds are children and so were you. You didn't act like a woman (no matter how grown up you thought you were at the time), you didn't look like one. I don't care if you dressed yourself up with tons of makeup and clothes suitable for a 30 year old... you were a child and anyone could see that. Whoever raped you was a sick human being.

I was raped at 13 and to this day I do not remember the actual event. I do remember the day after, the way I felt physically and did not understand. The bleeding and the bruised painful feeling/vaginal cramping you sometimes feel. I remember the abuse that continued for years leading up to the rape. It wasn't until years later when I was in my thirties that I was able to identify having been raped..... or even abused actually.

I was a child and I know that not one second of it was my fault.

[Mikimouse]

26. From my standpoint, as a male, but

also as an academic with a specialty in gender and women's studies, I am surprised that there has been no mention of 'sexual harrassment' workshops in the thread. I am required to attend one every two years, presumably to prevent my taking advantage of my students (not a laughing matter, I know more than a few of my colleagues who do exactly that!). I have noticed over the years that these 'workshops' have little or nothing to do with preventing sexual harrassment; rather, they are focused on highlighting ways in which one can avoid litigation. The current laws require the victim to have protested at least once; if no protest is spoken, according to the law, no sexual harrassment has occured. The acts must be repeated, so the perpetrator will get away with it at least once (when it shouldn't happen at all). The major problem is this: no one comes right out and says that this type of behavior is simply not acceptable and furthermore is stupid and cowardly. When I present this section of the material to my classes, I also point out that we tend to socialize our children differently. We socilaize our male children (as a society) to 'go get 'em, son', while we tell our female children to avoid young men because they have only one thing on their minds. We need to be consistent in our teachings and socialization and stop treating this issue in such a cavalier manner. By the way, for whatever it is worth, we have three daughters and one son.

[Clete]

29. Until men know that they will have to do time

for their actions, no amount of sexual harrassment seminars are going to make a difference.

[Mikimouse]

30. That is part of my point

It seems that we manage to sidestep the issue many times, just to preserve our precious 'masculinity'. The old 'boys will be boys' stuff doesn't cut it with me. I agree wholeheartedly with you. Masculinity must be defined in different terms from how it is defined now, which amounts to nothing more than self-definition based on the number of 'notches in one's headboard'-total BS. I am a firm supporter of Take Back the Night, Domestic Violence Week, and other activities, because these things are all closely interrelated.:thumbsup:

[Cheswick2.0]

32. your wife and children are very lucky to have you

Your wife and daughter for obvious reason, but also your son because he will grow into the kind of man who can be proud of himself.

[DrGonzoLives]

35. I think it's cultural

In this country, anyway, boys/men are encouraged to "score" as often as possible, viewing women as inferior, merely objects to insert tab A into slot B and bust a nut. In fact, even when women say no, they "really want it," especially if they *gasp* dress sexy and flirt. Probably goes back to Puritan ethics where the "good girls" didn't dress or behave like that - thus anyone else was a prostitute or a "woman of loose morals".

I think two things have to happen: one, boys need to be taught that woman are human beings too, worthy of respect and being treated respectfully. Two, girls need to be taught that they don't need to put out to be accepted, nor look a certain way, etc.

And for women who are being assaulted - a swift kick in the nuts should buy you enough time to get away - especially if the guy is, you know, excited.

[Clete]

36. Of course it's cultural so was baby sacrifice

in ancient times, but it doesn't make it right to victimize a demographic group does it?

Just a rhetorical question here. Now we know that there have been gay actors in the past like Rock Hudson and Richard Chamberlain. If these actors went about "being playful" groping the balls and butts of male cameramen or grips, would they be able to run for Governor do you think? Or, would they be cooling their deballed asses in a jail cell if they managed to survive long enough to get there?

[DrGonzoLives]

37. Uh, where did I say

that it was "right" to victimize a demographic group? Do you enjoy putting words into everyone's mouth, or is this an isolated incident?

[Clete]

38. You didn't say, but I didn't put words in your mouth either.

The post was meant as an addendum to your post. Sorry you took it otherwise and I apologize.

[msmcghee]

39. Becoming an adult male is not so easy either.

This post in no way is meant to condone any type af date rape or any kind of intimidation of one person by another, more powerful person.

OTOH I remember being very confused from age 19 through about 26 - about myself and sexuality and dating in general.

There were two basic modes of conduct. You could have a steady relationship with a woman or you could be a rogue. As a rogue there was a game whereby you were graded - by yourself as well as your friends - according to how much sex you were getting - which of course was weighted by the sexiness of your conquests.

Now this wasn't just a game kind of game. This was the game of life. Your very manhood was at stake. Like many of my friends I worked on and developed techniques that worked - although I never felt that I was particularly successful at that game.

I am sure those actions were caused by cultural factors. For example, I think Playboy magazine influenced my age group a lot. I was 20 in 1962.

Playboy mag didn't advocate objectification, disrespect or intimidation of women - quite the opposite. But it implied that real men, like James Bond, would have the attention of beautiful sexy women and would not want for sex.

So if you were in danger of not fulfilling that ideal, then you figured you had to try harder. Add some alcohol to that - and a woman who is saying no, when we were so sure a few minutes ago she was longing for our advances just like Pussy Galore, could cause some anger - and lead to some bad events.

I can say I have never intimidated a woman or taken advantage of her for sex that I can remember. I even remember a time when I came home and my drunk roomate was forcing himself on a woman on the couch. I intervened which allowed her to get out.

But I can also say that our culture sends powerful messages to us males about what it means to be successful and worthwhile as a person. Our culture tells us that depends on the adoration and sexual willingness of pretty young women - you. At least it was in the early sixties. A TV ad for a Corvette with some dude driving down the road with a hot sexy lady at his side - that says between the lines that he's getting all that he needs - sends a lot of messages.

I guess what I am saying is that young males' boorish, stupid behaviour regarding women is often caused by a natural need to fit in and feel worthwhile - along with our culture's instructions for achieving that, rather than a simple desire by males to intimidate or hurt women in order to get sex.

Again, I am not saying that any kind of intimidation of one person by another, of whatever gender, is ever justified. Just that our culture, like all male-centric cultures, produces victims on many levels.