To Green-ish posters: Do you consider Kerry to be a centrist?

[George_Bonanza]

This is only for the Green-ish posters. Those of you who like the DLC and hate Greens, this is not for you.

Please state why, if you do say yes. Please state why, if you say no.

Personally, I do not think John Kerry is a centrist. He is very liberal, but not quite Green. Whatever Nader has done for the environment, I doubt he has surpassed John Kerry's contribution. Also, John Kerry has never been a buddy of the corporation, and is well-respected for his support of small businesses. He is the ranking Democrat of the Small Business Committee. Kerry never took PAC money in any of his four senatorial elections. Kerry supports NAFTA, yes, and Nader doesn't. However, ever hear of the Kerry Amendment? It sought some reforms to NAFTA to make it more labour and economically friendly. Kerry is not content with NAFTA as is. So there you have it, the two most important aspects of Greendom: Corporation and environment. And Kerry passes with flying colours. So why is Kerry regarded as a centrist by Greens? Or at least that's my perception. Remember, Kerry went against the DLC rule of Clinton by voting NO on the DMA, which passed because only 14 senators opposed it.

[IranianDemocrat]

1. You shouldn't care about what the St. Ralph idiot supporters think.

They're nothing but unreasonable,idealist, extremists.

[George_Bonanza]

3. Some are I guess

For example, one guy at another forum adamantly worships Nader and hates all the "sellout" Dems like Kerry and Dean because of their corporate influence. Never mind that Nader *gasp* takes advantage of capitalist markets as well and is a very wealthy man. But I've seen some hateful anti-Green DLCers here. Doesn't mean we should burn bridges.

[IranianDemocrat]

6. To the greens, you're not a REAL dem unless...

Your over 95% in line with the political ideology of Karl Marxx.

[JohnKleeb]

10. Greens arent Marxists ID

The communists have their own party :).

[IranianDemocrat]

14. I know I was exagerating...

..but to show how unreasonable most Greens are.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Well my politics are Green, I am a democrat

myself and many of my heroes are democrats, I do have a socialist hero in Eugene Debs.

[IranianDemocrat]

27. I respect that totally.

I love it when people are progressives in the democratic party.

[JohnKleeb]

32. Isnt that what it should be

The party in its best years was progressive, all my heroes that I think of, people like FDR, RFK, and Wellstone were democrats. Of course progresives remain, they do get irriated however and I myself when progressivism is shunned by people like the DLC.

[IranianDemocrat]

35. True.

We should be an opposition party, that is why I don't support the DLC or Joe Lieberman. But I really can't respect the third party voters who don't even try to work for progressive causes inside of the Democratic party.

[mike_c]

49. I have been a registered, loyal DEMOCRAT since 1973...

...that's 30 yrs of party loyalty, and all too often in recent years holding my nose to vote for the lesser weasel, so don't run that "don't even try to work for progressive causes inside of the Democratic party" crap by me. The democratic party has left me-- and many other liberals-- behind in its lurch to the right. I'd love to vote for a dem in the 2004 presidential election. If I don't, it'll be the first time in 30 years. But I won't unless the democrats nominate a progressive, liberal candidate, preferrably one who didn't vote for (or tacitly support) the invasion of Iraq.

[JVS]

16. Or unless you are registered as a Democrat, unlike Clark until a couple

weeks ago.

[IranianDemocrat]

21. Nice try.

.

[JVS]

26. What? You question the Democratic status of those who lean left.

Why should a centrist candidate who speaks well of Republicans and managed to enter the race for the top Dem job without even bothering to affiliate himself with the party first get a free pass?

[IranianDemocrat]

29. Why don't we just hold ALL candidates accountable...

...for some questionable things they might have done in the past? Let's see where that gets us. Right now, Clark is as much of a democrat as any other candidate in the race.

[JVS]

39. Um, yeah! Holding candidates accountable for the past is a good idea!

I'm sorry if that doesn't suit the desires of El Commandante Supremo! We should be examining the past of the candidates and what they have done for the party. I support Kucinich, but people who care deeply about the pro-choice issue might want to look especially hard at him to see if they can trust him. Similarly we should examine Gephardt's record closely, he may have backed the war, but he isn't racking up labor nominations for nothing. We should be scrutinizing these candidates. And the fact that your guy has NO political record other than fundraising for the major opposition party, makes it impossible to be certain of what we would be buying.

[IranianDemocrat]

41. That's very hard to do for Clark...

...because the military REQUIRES a very apolitical line of thinking.

BTW, let's just say if when he was younger he was a republican? Does that mean he has no right to become enlightened and switch over and become a democrat. Aren't we supposed to be an inclusive party?

[JVS]

45. Maybe he should run for senator first to gain experience

We have a right to wonder if the conversion has set. I'd say that it is too soon to tell. Sorry, he isn't ripe for the presidency yet. He lacks political "street Cred"

[IndianaGreen]

78. We are an inclusive party, but you are not inclusive at all!

If you were inclusive you would not be hijacking this thread, which was about Kerry in the first place, and you wouldn't be pissing on Green Democrats and on the party's base with your anti-socialist tirades.

[bahrbearian]

18. Just what a Repug would do ,label them "Commie"

That really hurt!!!

[RapidCreek]

60. Yea right...To Iranians, your not a REAL Arab unless..."

Your over 95% in line with the political ideology of the Mujahedin-e Khalq.

Have a nice day! :)

RC

[IndianaGreen]

79. I don't think the poster is Iranian anyway

and I doubt that he is a military veteran!

[bahrbearian]

23. Bull Shit!!

Not on bit of truth in that post

[Wonk]

5. What part of this sentence did you not understand?

"Those of you who like the DLC and hate Greens, this is not for you."

[IranianDemocrat]

9. I'm not especially fond of the DLC so I guess I can post.

I think the DLC has too much power right now, but I think Greens are the bigger threat to the Democratic party.

[bahrbearian]

28. But you Hate Greens.. right!

[IranianDemocrat]

30. Yes I hate people who help the GOP!

Absolutely!

[IndianaGreen]

77. I guess you hate yourself

go to confession and say a couple of Hail Marys for creating discord on this thread.

[BadFaith]

70. Nonsense

"I think the DLC has too much power right now, but I think Greens are the bigger threat to the Democratic party."

The biggest threat to the Democratic Party is its weak-kneed leadership and those who feel that any Party candidate is entitled to someone's vote. The GOP was able to run roughshod over the Democrats in 2002 midterms for the simple reason that their canidates and incumbents let their Republican opponents get away with calling them unpatriotic on the Homeland Security issue. Nevermind that Bush and a large majority of Republicans in the House and Senate opposed the original cabinet-level office, proposed in legislation authored by Democratic Senators Lieberman and Cleland.

The Democratic Party can have room for any ideology or sector of the left spectrum that it wants. But if its leadership plays an increasingly reactive game with the GOP, run shoddy campaigns that ALLOW the GOP to get away with all manner of defamation and slander, and forsake their consituency in favor of corporate campaign contributions, then they shouldn't be at all surprised that they are in the minority. If the grassroots methodology of several of the candidates takes hold and the DLC serves the candidate rather than the other way around, perhaps things will change.

[IndianaGreen]

76. Flame bait!

I am not even sure that your use of the Clark avatar is even indicative of your ideological bent which clearly is one that is neither liberal nor progressive.

Anyone that wants to refight the 2000 election is that does not want unity against Bush in 2004.

[bahrbearian]

11. That's too Funny , I quess your message is Vote Bush!!!

[IranianDemocrat]

17. You do that anyway by voting Green!

[bahrbearian]

19. Where did you come up with that "Florida"??

[IranianDemocrat]

24. Green Vote = Bush vote.

Greens won't hold positions of power in the near and not so near future.

Why do you think the GOP donates money to the green party?

[bahrbearian]

31. Only in Florida , where the vote's aren't counted....

[IranianDemocrat]

33. You can spin it however way you want.

St. Ralph didn't help the cause.

[Wonk]

38. Way to accidentally threadjack, by the way (or was it intentional?) nt

[IranianDemocrat]

42. Nope- I just posted my point of view.

.

[RapidCreek]

61. No, you vote Bush by voting Bush

Pretty simple concept really.

Your logic parallels that of one of the biggest assholes in recent history. You remember....he told his/our allies "You're are either with us or you're against us". Additionally, like you, he called these allies "irrelevant" though he now begs them for assistance. Who was this asshole? Why AWOL George, of course! Must make you feel all warm and squishy knowing your in such fine, fine company, ID!!

RC

[durutti]

12. But One Could Just as Easily Say

That mainstream Democrats are craven opportunists.

[IndianaGreen]

75. I guess this means that you love the DLC and hate Greens

and your use of "Saint Ralph" may be in violation of new GD posting rules.

Next time read what the poster implored readers to do, and go piss on someone else's parade instead of acting like a disruptor!

BTW, I posted my reply about Kerry elsewhere on this thread. I am not interested at all in what you have to say on the subject. I am not going to waste bandwidth with people that love to create ill-feelings among people that could be voting for the Democratic nominee in 2004, a concept that may escape you!

[JohnKleeb]

2. Would I count even though I am dem?

I consider him quite liberal myself. I got my reasons for having Kerry number 2 remember that.

[George_Bonanza]

4. Thanks John, but I know all about your support of Kerry

Nothing new, sort of =). I want to know others' opinions.

[JohnKleeb]

8. Welcome

Ive talked with my fellow Kucinich supporters, many of em have Kerry as a second choice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. John Kerry Is A Traditional Liberal

and he is a member of the DLC...

He's prolly to the left of Edwards, Clark, Dean, Gephardt, and Lieberman, and to the right of Kucinich, Moseley Braun, and Sharpton....

John Kerry has a higher lifetime ADA score than Ted Kennedy...

www.adaction.org

By any honest measure he is a "traditional liberal"

[George_Bonanza]

22. I would agree 100% with you

But even traditional liberals are in rarity in presidential elections.

I think Kerry is moderately very liberal, in that he's very left without being pegged a socialist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Kerry Has A Lifetime 93 ADA rating....

Kucinich has a lifetime 90 ADA rating...

[JohnKleeb]

44. Thats true

:) that means they would be B+ liberals. Both have good records, I am pleased to see that Kerry is promoting Veterans rights, also I like Kucinich for his message as well but Kerry hes a good guy, more liberal than most think.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. Hey Buddy....

John Kerry's conservative temperament matched against Kucinich's firery temperament makes Kucinich appear more liberal...

[Mairead]

71. My sense is that it'd be more correct to say he WAS a trad. liberal

I'd place his current position about on par with rather than to the left of the guys you name. I.e., he's a 'centrist'.

However, I don't think...or at least I'm not convinced...that his current position is 'real Kerry', since it seems fairly much at odds with the rest of his record.

Before, I perceived him largely as an empty suit, a nice guy who was enjoying his aristo position as a Mass. Senator and could be counted on to vote the liberal line, but wasn't in the business of making waves or shaking anything up.

Now, I perceive him as someone who's drunk the DLC koolaid in hopes that they can get him elected President. But given that Randy Forsberg was able to grab 25K votes from him with a zero-money word-of-mouth campaign that she started only 2 weeks before the elections, I think the koolaid will prove to have been a mistake.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[George_Bonanza]

25. I'm an egomaniac?

I'm one of his biggest supporters here, and have spent countless hours making sure he's not a slimebag in disguise.

[Cheswick2.0]

15. "Those of you who like the DLC and hate Greens"

these are the only two choices? What if you don't like the DLC, but like some DLC members? What if you agree with Greens on much policy, but think their strategy and candidate choice sucks? Can we give our opinion then?

I don't think Kerry is centrist on everything but he is on somethings and I think he is arrogant. I will not vote for him in the primaries but if he wins and is the democratic candidate, not only will I vote for him, but I will work for him.

[ulysses]

37. if we're going to have little nuances

like What if you don't like the DLC, but like some DLC members? What if you agree with Greens on much policy, but think their strategy and candidate choice sucks? then let's have them all the time, not just when it suits you.

How about we start with the little nuance that says that a lot of votes for Nader in 2000 came from avowed Democrats?

[burr]

34. I'm not a red....

Greekish maybe and extremely liberal by most standards, but not Greenish.

Are you, or have you ever been a member? Have you voted for a Green, or perhaps written a Green in on the ballot...Are you a traitor or not?

[GreenInNC]

40. I would vote for Kerry

I am a Green and Kerry is one of the Dems I would vote for.

In response to the people who think we are a threat, I think you should be more concerned with the 7.7 million Dems who voted for Bush than the 2.5 million people of all parties that voted for Nader. Three times more Dems voted for Bush in Florida than voted for Nader. If the Democratic Party's of Arkansas and Tennessee had been able to get their own people to vote for Gore instead of Bush....

If the Democrats want to diffuse some of this so called power we have they can pass laws so that we don't have to run a presidential candidate in 33 states to retain our ballot access in those states. Many people scream that we should concentrate on lower level races but we have to run a presidential candidate so that Greens can run on the local level as Greens. We are only playing the hand that has been dealt us.

[JVS]

43. Kerry already has the stigma of MA liberal. Add in IRW+PATRIOT

and I have trouble seeing him as electable. To northern and liberal for the centrists. To centrist for the leftists. Gephardt would be a better bet.

[KC21304]

48. Explain to me what MA liberal means. When did that become

a terrible thing ? When we let the Republicans destroy a most decent man with the Willy Horton ads ? Was JFK a MA liberal ?

I am so sick of Democrats rolling over when Repugs or media say the magic words. Just because we have let these things slide by for years doesn't mean we can't start telling them they are full of it when they start with these old weary cliches.

[George_Bonanza]

52. I think it means a liberal

Who's very elitist, rich, and basically aloof from the rest of America. I guess that's what some people get when they see a 6'4", multimillionaire, Ivy League schooled long-time politician. We've gotta break that.

[burr]

53. I know who ya mean...

the same kind of "neo-liberals" that run the DLC. The same posters who are always telling me that some aristocratic elector can pick my President better than me.

The same people who whine and complain, but when the battle is over always turn their backs on loyal Democrats like Jimmy Carter, Gray Davis, and Max Cleland. We gotta break them, and their stuckup, shitty-ass corporate mindset which has been running our party into the ground!

[George_Bonanza]

54. I'm not following

Are you saying that Kerry IS a Massachusetts Liberal, one who turns his back on the likes of Carter and Cleland? If so, Max Cleland is one of Kerry's strongest backers, and Kerry is one of Cleland's biggest fans. I'm not quite following.

[burr]

57. nope...

I was describing what repeals people about the word liberal. This doesn't mean that I support these perceptions of liberalism, but rather was agreeing with your view that many are seen as aristocratic, uppity and was explaining why.

[JVS]

81. For someone who we will have to deal with being tarred and feathered

as a MA liberal, his stance on important issues isn't liberal enough. It will take a lot of leg-work to get him elected in the first place, merely because he is from MA. If we have to do all this extra work, do we really want it to be for a guy that supported the Patriot act and the war?

[durutti]

46. No

He's a mainstream liberal -- but still a thoroughly bourgeois politician. He voted to normalize trade relations with China. He's consistenly voted against cutting military spending. He's very much pro-"free trade".

[George_Bonanza]

50. Against cutting military spending?

I'm not sure if he wants the U.S. military to atrophy, but certainly, you're not implying he's a wasteful person, are you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41459#57099

[burr]

51. The truth would be a terrible thing to admit...

but I guess you know all about this. :smoke:

[George_Bonanza]

55. Huh?

Again, I'm not following you. Are you saying that Kerry is a wasteful person when it comes to the military?

[burr]

58. I'm saying the truth must be a terrible thing to admit...

nothing more and nothing less.

But try doing your own research on Senator Kerry.

[George_Bonanza]

63. RNC research here, but still facts nonetheless

Of course, they perceive it as a grave flaw in Kerry's character. We may see it differently.

Here's the link: http://bjcat0.tripod.com/kerrylies.htm

Try and pass over the attacks on Kerry's honesty and such, and there are some facts there that prove that Kerry's not a wasteful gungho pro-military spendthrift wasting... You get the idea.

[JohnKleeb]

64. Honestly I was quite pleased by the fact he wants to cut from the DoD

I dont like nuclear weapons and the like at all. I know you know Ive liked Kerry for some time but I am just saying, this is a good quality.

[burr]

65. The RNC isn't exactly what I had in mind.

But you can decide for yourself what are facts and what is fiction. ;)

[George_Bonanza]

67. RNC is the RNC, but facts are facts

Except cutting a billion from the Pentagon is BAD news for them, while it may be good news for us. But the fact remains, a billion got cut from the Pentagon.

[burr]

68. You left out some major flaws.

These spending cuts were being pushed during Clinton's first term. I don't see any such proposals being discussed regarding Clinton's second term or since shrub has been President.

Again, the RNC not only twists the truth...but manufactures lies about their enemies. This is not what I consider a legit source for data.

[RichM]

47. I regarded Kerry as a good liberal senator until the IWR last fall.

My current negative attitude towards him is based on that & its sequelae -- ie, the 2-faced attempts to justify that vote, since casting it. Also, he was much too quiet about Bush's outrages in the first 2 years. But I think it must be conceded that he was a pretty good senator until these last few years.

[Armstead]

56. I consider him to be centrist in style-- and very boring.

He's my Senator, and I'm glad he is. He's a good man who has fought some good fights.

But he has followed the Centrist strategy of waffling on the core issue that drives most otehrs -- Corporate Power. And he can;t talk straight....It's true that some of that is due to his intelligence. But beyond that, he seems too much like a centrist in that he wants it both ways. "Love me liberals" he says out of one side of his mouth. But with the oethr he says to the rest "Don;t worry. I'm not really a liberal."

I was also appalled by his performance on the war. I was against the war, but I wold have had more respect for him if he'd been like Gephardt and Lieberman. Take a damn position and defend it. Instead, he waffled and danced and voted with Bush.

And free trade needs more than a fine tuning. We need to talk about the core underpinning of that -- which is that in its present form, it is really just right-wing corporate conservatism on an international scale.

[George_Bonanza]

66. Gephardt and Lieberman

Were the ones who gave in too early when they were fine-tuning the IWR. Kerry has defended his position very well IMHO, when it could've been very easy and popular to say, "What the hell, I was wrong!" and go with the flow. I can respect him for sticking with his vote, even though he now realizes it's very unpopular, and probably the one thing holding him back from gaining huge leads. It's certainly not doing him any favours. Yet he still sticks with it, because he sincerely believes what he did was right, at least at that time and context.

You're sort of right when you say Kerry comes off like a centrist. He's a liberal that sounds like a centrist sometimes because he talks a lot. He seems to always balance each issue instead of using hot rhetoric. And because of that, he may be seen as capitulating to the right, when in fact, he's just trying to be fair and thoughtful. But it's a fact that in order to win an election, you have to appeal to every Democrat out there. You can't alienate the moderates and pander to the bigger liberals, and vice versa. So every Democratic candidate has to have it both ways in that they have to appeal to both crowds without alienating either of them.

[Armstead]

83. That's the problem I have with him

>>>But it's a fact that in order to win an election, you have to appeal to every Democrat out there. You can't alienate the moderates and pander to the bigger liberals, and vice versa. So every Democratic candidate has to have it both ways in that they have to appeal to both crowds without alienating either of them.<<<

I appreciate Kerry's effort to convey nuance. However, this is a campaign and the sound bites and basic positions are important (unfortunately). So is emotion and directness (which is one reason Dean resonates).

In a campaign that has any sunstance, somebody's got to be alienated. An election is about a choice. Our side has to offer a clear choice. It's not even so much about "moderate" or "pure" liberal. It's about taking strong positions that resonate with people. If done right, it resonates with a majority.

For example, I think if one of the "Washington" candidates like Kerry would just come out with it stop pussyfooting around and avoiding sounding too "liberal,", that would give "liberal" positions legitimacy to the "swing voters."

[genius]

59. I'm a liberal Democrat. He is my second choice. He is also the

second choice of most the Greens who are working on the Kucinich campaign. I don't know how many of them will vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination. They came over for Dennis. Other than Kucinich, he's got the best chance.

[JohnKleeb]

62. I hope they will because despite IWR Kerry is ok with me

Hes my second choice too, Edwards is tied.

[BadFaith]

69. Different Race, Different Circumstances.

I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, so I guess that qualifies me as "Green-ish".

To the question, I need a definition of "centrist" in order to make any distinction as to whether or not Sen. Kerry is one. From my perspective, "centrist" and/or "centrism" are completely ambiguous and meaningless terms (as are "liberal" and "conservative", but that's besides the point for now), and can be applied across any number of spectra in politics to be of any value in assessing a candidate's general description. Is he a centrist on a majority of political spectra? I don't think so. Is he a centrist on the political spectra that I'm more interested in than others (labor, environment, corporate corruption and fraud, etc)? Based on his record, I don't think so either.

On your assertion that Sen. Kerry has done more for environmental causes than Ralph Nader, I do wish to point out that the two men approach the issue from two different vantage points. Sen. Kerry, as an elected representative, has the ability to do more than the average private citizen in having a direct hand in forming environmental policy. Ralph Nader, as a private citizen, has donated much of his time and energy in creating groups with a very strong advocacy record. Both men have done great work, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr's endorsement of Sen. Kerry and the Green Party's nomination of Ralph Nader both show that. Whether or not Sen. Kerry has done more or hasn't is really irrelevant; both have done more than most.

[0rganism]

72. I view Sen. Kerry as a shrewd politician with liberal ethics

I guess I'd say that he sometimes seems to get caught up in the gamesmanship to such an extent that he loses his inspiration.

I wouldn't call him a centrist, no, certainly not. I do wonder if he guards his words and positions too much; sometimes he seems cold and distant in his manner, and overly pragmatic in his voting. For instance, his vote on the Iraq war was obviously (to me, anyway) a way to avoid "terrorist collaborator" critiques while simultaneously putting bushco in the hotseat to come up with evidence that justified their hard sell. Now that's clever. However, now that he's played the "we were misled" card, the reaction doesn't seem to be paying off. Thousands of people died so he could hold that trump, and what's it done for us?

Well, that's an unfair exaggeration, of course. I doubt that he could have rallied an effective opposition to vote against the invasion, had he been so inclined. It would have been a losing battle, costly in terms of prestige and support. I can understand this, and accept that his pragmatism was justified in these circumstances. But is it too complex...

Therein lies Kerry's problem, IMHO. He's a complicated man. He understands nuance. He's clearly intelligent and well spoken. But he has a media image as an insincere, conniving, uncaring limousine liberal that will be tough for him to shake. I saw him signing autographed photos for some schoolchildren on C-Span, and he looked bored, disinterested, vacant. That's not going to play well, unfortunately, when he runs against a president who has to concentrate in order to read a children's book to kids.

Maybe this isn't what you were asking for. I wouldn't hesitate to vote for him based on his issue positions. John Kerry's current campaign problem is image, not issues.

[Iverson]

73. the short answer is yes

He is occasionally left of center. However, not all issues are equal in importance.

You offer a good example in his no vote on DMA.

The fig leafs on NAFTA, a prominent issue in your post, provided by Kerry and others were largely ineffectual and were mainly for the purpose of covering themselves for organized labor. I view economic globalization as something that sharply undermines both the environment and labor, so I conclude the opposite that you do.

Another important issue that you did not mention is his voting to give usurper Bush a blank check to wage pre-emptive war. That is so bad on so many levels.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Kerry's vote for giving Bush the green light to attack Iraq was not...

a thing a real liberal would do.

On the other hand, we have known Kerry for decades, and are well aware of his voting record which is on the whole what one would expect from a liberal Democrat from Massachusetts.

Kerry's appearance on ABC's This Week yesterday, when he was questioned by George Stephanopoulos and George Will about the war in Iraq, was perhaps his best performance on this subject that I have seen Kerry do in months. Kerry did very well!

[seaglass]

80. Nader said on NPR that he met with Kerry privately

and that he (Kerry) is more liberal than he portrays to the public. This interview was in July. I believe he said the same about Dean(not positive on this).

I don't know if a true Green considers Ralph a true Green, but that's what he said.

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2003/07/20030717_a_main.asp