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To GOPish posters, do you consider Dean and Kucinich to be losers?

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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:02 PM
Original message
To GOPish posters, do you consider Dean and Kucinich to be losers?
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 08:03 PM by burr
This is only for the GOP-ish posters. Those of you who are sick of the DLC and like liberalism, this is not for you.

Please state why, if you do say yes. Please state why, if you say no.

Personally, I do not think the DLC is Republican. It is very corporate, but not quite conservative. Whatever the DLC has done for the environment, I doubt they have surpassed Dean's or Kucinich's contribution. Also, Kucinich has never been a buddy of the corporation, and is well-respected for his support of small businesses. The DLC supports NAFTA, yes, and Kucinich doesn't. However, ever hear of the Kerry Amendment? It sought some reforms to NAFTA to make it more corporate friendly while making patents required and more restrictive. Kerry is not content with NAFTA as is. So there you have it, the two most important aspects of DINOism: Corporation and environment. And Dean and Kucinich pass with flying colours. So why is the DLC regarded as a money grubbers by liberals? Or at least that's my perception. Remember, the DLCers went against Clinton's budget by voting NO on the BTU tax, which finally passed because only because Al Gore broke the tie and they agreed on raising the regressive gasoline tax instead.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dean? Passes with flying colors on the environment?
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 08:14 PM by wyldwolf
NOT!

Dean is certainly no Dennis Kucinich!
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. If this is how you feel..the GOP will welcome you with open trunks.
Why not just send the Dean supporters to the guillotine? That should make you thrilled to death.

Or even better tell the Dean supporters to shut up and stay home, then have Dean just drop out.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. You over react...
You say Dean has a good environmental record. I say he doesn't. That simple.

How can you equate being critical of Dean's environmental record with selling out to the GOP? Remember, there are 8 other candidates - unless you believe Dean should get a coronation and is above reproach.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I'm not sure...
how could someone equate criticism of John Kerry and the DLC as selling out to the Greens?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I haven't...
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Then you're agreeing with me...
these kinds of accusations have no foundation.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dean would be a weak candidate
And I'm not DLC'er or GOPish, but I can definitely recognize a McGovern type loser when I see one, and that is Dean.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. thanks for participating...
you're just the type I'm looking for! :hi:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. What are the traits of a "McGovern type loser"? Are you afraid of popular
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 09:17 PM by w4rma
support?

Republicans have popular support. Are you afraid of Democrats who have popular support? Do you wish to quell popular support for Democrats?

Some information on Sen. George McGovern. McGovern was an honest and progressive idealist. McGovern joined the United States Air Force in 1943 and flew 35 combat missions as a B-24 bomber pilot in Europe. During World War II, McGovern won the Distinguished Flying Cross. Senator McGovern's campaign for President was very underfinanced and he had a major scandal concerning his running mate who had undergone electroshock theropy for manic depression.
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tony_maine Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. I agree
Dean would be a disaster and go down to a resounding defeat. He would never be able to win the Independent vote. Constanly running on a platform of "we hate Bush" while offering nothing else might be fine among Democrats, but the rest of the voters are going to want something more. Lieberman is really the only candidate, perhaps Clark too, that can beat Bush.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hi tony_maine!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. They are all winners, I think they are all speaking well for us.
Now, if they just don't cannibalize each other before this is over, they can help unify the small "d" democratic base that can elect one of them.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Look at the language and tone of the poster...
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 08:30 PM by wyldwolf
...saying more moderate DU'ers are GOP-ish is almost a rule violation and is damn insulting. And, in post 3, he seems to equate criticism of Dean with joining the republican party, as though there aren't any other candidates and not falling in line and supporting Dean makes one a GOP'er.

I realize this is in response to some previous post, but still!

...or have I misunderstood?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree, this thread is borderline
It seems to be an attempt to label all Dean dissenters as Republicans, that's one reason I responded, because of how ridiculous the implication is, I won't be silent about Dean criticism ever.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. The posting also states that I do not consider DLCers to be Republican.
This wording is no more insulting than stating that more liberal DUers are Greenish. Is that a rule violation?
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. This person does not make sense.
They say they do not believe DLCers are GOPish, but when someone says they do not like Dean they are what he is looking for. What is DINO? Being corportate and environment or not? Are you suggesting that DLCers have had no positive records on the environment? This post confuses me.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. then just don't worry your little head about it!
everything will be fine...
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. If that was meant to be condescending,
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No it wasn't!!
I was trying to be supportive and understanding ;)
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. Dean is both a DLC democrat and more pro-corporate than most
he bowed down to corporate interests in Vermont, and his presidential platorm has nothing to do with reforming corporate america in any way that I know of.

Edwards has by far the most drastic reform proposal, and history of taking on those interests, of any serious candidate

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Right on Dean
Former governor Philip H. Hoff served three terms in the 1960s, and is regarded as the grand old man of liberal Democratic politics here. His support for Dean comes leavened with skepticism... "As governor, he fell under the sway of business interests." Hoff said.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The facts do not support Bombtrack's argument, IMHO
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 09:36 PM by w4rma
Note however, Dean is a centrist, not a liberal. However, so are Clark and Edwards.

Dean Statement in Response to DLC's Charge that Public Servants are "Fringe Activists"

“Once again, the DLC has chosen to put their own political agenda ahead of the progress needed to unite the Democratic Party. This election has barely begun, and the DLC has repeatedly dismissed people who attend caucuses, who get out the vote, and now the 1.3 million members of AFSCME as ‘fringe activists’ who do not reflect ‘the mainstream values, national pride and the economic aspirations of middle-class and working people.’

“The DLC staff can say what they want about me, but they owe an apology to the 1.3 million members of AFSCME. Our teachers, our health care workers, and our state and local public servants don't need a lesson from Washington insiders about the needs and concerns of middle- and working-class families. What they need is a Democratic Party that will stand up for them.”

Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:27 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000206.html

Tell From and Reed of the DLC What You Think
Click here to sign a letter to the Democratic Leadership Council telling them that you're an active Democrat who supports Howard Dean. You can tell your friends about the link, too: www.deanforamerica.com/DLC

Posted by Mathew Gross at 01:29 AM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000240.html

Fineman on the DLC Memo
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000213.html

Former DNC-Chief Steve Grossman to DLC: "Creating Conflict is Not Leadership."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000225.html

Liberal Oasis on Howard Dean and the DLC
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000226.html

Will the Real DLC Please Stand Up?
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000228.html

Congressional Members Call on DLC to Stop Divisive Tactics
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000238.html

Activists Are Out of Step
By Al From and Bruce Reed
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251866&kaid=85&subid=65

The Real Soul of the Democratic Party
By Al From and Bruce Reed
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251690&kaid=127&subid=900056


{Guy in the audience: “Give ’em hell, Howard!”}

Harry Truman used to say, {when} people used to say, “Give ’em hell, Harry,” he’d say, “I don’t give them hell, I just tell the truth and Republicans think it’s hell.” We need a balanced budget in this country so we’re going to have jobs in America again to invest in America. No Republican president has balanced the budget in 34 years in this country. If you want to trust the federal government with your hard-earned money, you had better vote for a Democrat, because the Republicans can’t handle money. You know, the president’s given a lot of our tax dollars away to big corporations, but I think we better change our policy, because those corporations take our jobs elsewhere. What we need in this country is an investment policy for small businesses. Small businesses don’t pay as well as big businesses, their fringe benefits aren’t as good, but they stay in their own community. We need jobs in America. We need to invest in America. Three trillion dollars. Can you imagine, if we could have taken some of that money, to rebuild our roads and our bridges, and our schools, and broadband telecommunications in the most rural parts of America so they can have information jobs as well, and invest in renewable energy and rebuilding the grid, so we can put people to work, and save the environment, and save our national security? We can do better than this. We need jobs, Mr. President, not empty promises and $3 trillion of our tax money going to your friends who are writing you those $2,000 checks to finance your campaign. We can do better than that.

http://www.thestranger.com/2003-08-28/dean_speech.html


Governor Dean, about those high earners, the nonpartisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has suggested using revenue from the estate tax as a progressive way to help bolster Social Security. Should wealthy Americans be contributing more to Social Security?

MR. DEAN: What wealthy Americans should be doing is paying their fair share of the payroll tax. Social Security cannot survive -- (scattered applause) -- on its present track. And the solution to that is simply to make wage-earners above $85,000 subject to the payroll tax, and that will cure the Social Security ills, if we can change presidents.

Now, you asked about pensions. A few days ago we were in San Francisco talking to the United Food & Commercial Workers. (Scattered cheers.) A gentleman over here named Larry Allen, who is a produce clerk at Wal-Mart in Henderson, Texas, took two days of his vacation to come to San Francisco for the UFCW forum. When he went back, he was fired for violating the no-solicitation clause.

If you want to protect pensions, the way to do that is to organize. And if you want to organize at places like Wal-Mart, we'd better have card check. We'd better ban mandatory compulsory meetings. We'd better fire the National Labor Relations Board, because that's how you protect working people in this country. (Scattered applause.)

And we ought to have independent pension funds that are no longer controlled by corporations. It would solve two problems. First of all, major corporations going out the door would not be raiding the pension funds in order to try to keep their company afloat. That money doesn't belong to the corporations. It belongs to the people in whose trust it was set aside.

And secondly, it would contribute to portable pensions so that if you move from job to job to job, you still get your pension. You don't have to worry about vesting anymore. We need complete pension reform in this country, and we need to start by making unions strong enough to demand it.

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/candidates_forumtranscript.cfm

Guest Post by Howard Dean

The post below is from Governor Howard Dean. You can check out the crossposting and commentary at www.blogforamerica.com and read more about Howard Dean at www.deanforamerica.com. Thanks!-- Matt, Zephyr and Nicco, Dean Internet Team

posted by { Zephyr Teachout } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:58 PM } to { presidential politics } { 31 comments }

It’s been a busy day, but it’s great to blog here on Larry Lessig’s blog.

I’ll be writing all week, but if there’s a day I can’t make it, Joe Trippi, my campaign manager, will fill in for me. Thank you Professor Lessig for inviting me.

The Internet might soon be the last place where open dialogue occurs. One of the most dangerous things that has happened in the past few years is the deregulation of media ownership rules that began in 1996. Michael Powell and the Bush FCC are continuing that assault today (see the June 2nd ruling).

The danger of relaxing media ownership rules became clear to me when I saw what happened with the Dixie Chicks. But there’s an even bigger danger in the future, on the Internet. The FCC recently ruled that cable and phone based broadband providers be classified as information rather than telecommunications services. This is the first step in a process that could allow Internet providers to arbitrarily limit the content that users can access. The phone and cable industries could have the power to discriminate against content that they don’t control or-- even worse-- simply don’t like.

The media conglomerates now dominate almost half of the markets around the country, meaning Americans get less independent and frequently less dependable news, views and information. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson spoke of the fear that economic power would one day try to seize political power. No consolidated economic power has more opportunity to do this than the consolidated power of media.

posted by { Howard Dean } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:26 PM } to { } { 198 comments }
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/2003_07.shtml
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Damn that Joe Trippi is amazing
amazing how he can take a pro-business, moderate Democrat with a so-so record on liberal issues and turn him into the second coming of Paul Wellstone. Dean is not DLC if you consider that he's not supported by them. On the issues, however, he has MUCH more in common with them than anybody besides Clark and Liebermann, the DLC choices.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. a smart man...
who shouldn't leaven their support for a candidate with some skeptism? What criticism do you have for your candidate?
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Loyal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. I like Dean
I'm not a big fan of Kucinich.
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burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. Packs of wobblyrats running through our halls...
But what can we do?

Maybe we should cleanup the unneeded trash that GOPish DINOs flock here to feast on. Maybe we should be humane to them and just let these rabid rats dominate the halls of our home, while we find another place to live. Or maybe we must both clean up our house, and set some mousetraps. And use something irresistible to these rats..some wonderful tasty cheese.



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