So, Is Columbus Day a Good Thing....Or Not? Why can't I take My Crayons

[KoKo]

and color in the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria? Those great ships, only two of which "made it," of the
Ships and I can feel good that I'm here in America....the Land of Corporate Opportunity.

I can look at things that way....or I can say Columbus was a disgusting Racist/Bigot who tried to kill Native
Americans and he was a drunk who led his men on a disastrous journey and founded a country based on
pillaging, rape, looting of treasure, disease and triumph over native people who had learned how to use the
land and give back what they took and be harmonius in their stewardship over what we now call the
American Continent.

Or, I could look and say, that many of our ancestors here on DU (excluding our sizeable native American and
African Americans) came here to get away from religious and economic oppressions in their own countries.
They saw America as a Beacon of Hope and Salvation, and a chance to Start Over without the prejudice and
lack of opportunity in their former lands.

If some see that Columbus Day is a day to celebrate for a NEW START......they why do we have to jump on
them and make them attone for sins they may not have committed. Why shouldn't we celebrate Columbus
Day, in the spirit that it was a NEW START for many while acknowledging that it was a "kiss of death" for
others which caused centuries of misery.

I go both ways on this.....One side says we in America have so few real celebrations that we need to cling
to this.....the other says we should declare a Day of Mourning for the Native American Peoples.

I hope we get it right at some point and can just say that this was an opening of a NEW WORLD where
MANY tried to CREATE a NEW WAY OF LIVING.......A DEMOCRACY! And, that it WAS SOMETHING
WORTHWHILE.......but it TOOK A TERRIBLE TOLL.

But, why not celebrate the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.......and that a man made it across the Atlantic and
found a way to create something more than he ever imagined?

[onebigbadwulf]

1. None of the above

The most important thing columbus did was prove Fundamentalist Conservative Christians WRONG. DEAD WRONG.

And that's why I celebrate it. The celebration of broken dogma and ridiculousness of dogmatic religions all over the world.

[frank frankly]

2. thanks for you words, but I take the natives 10 out of 10 times

there were better cultures already here. remember them, they are the ones you celebrate on thanksgiving. they tought these invaders how to survive because that was natural to them. and then they were slaughtered. the slaughtering of these people funded this country, along with slave labor.

natives existed in harmony with nature.

read any history account from the native's perspective and you'll never be the same.

thank you for your post, but I disagree completely.

[KoKo]

3. I feel sad that you didn't read my post......

word for word......:-(

[frank frankly]

4. I did read it!

and I wanted to be clear that I appreciate your entire perspective. I just don't share some of it.

here's why: what in the world should a native be celebrating today? have we moved past anything regarding the reservations? do the natives have a powerful lobby and are reparations a hot political issue? has the US ever shown goodwill towards them?

I believe in progress, but I think we are a long way from beginning to atone for what was done. I actually think we are going backwards, and fast.

To me, it would be like thanking George W. Bush if in 10 years the Iraqi people form a democracy. That will never make what he did correct. It would also be like suggesting slavery contributed to current "freedoms" enjoyed by African Americans.

Once again, I respect your post!

[KoKo]

8. Thanks for replying that you read it! I think I was trying to say we

need to find some "common ground" to commemorate when America became America.

How do we do that? Or do we feel that we are the "Occupiers of someone elses country, forever."

It starts to look like the I/P Forum on DU.....If you get what I mean. :shrug: There are hard feelings there. How do we move beyond. By ignoring and not celebrating or noting the event of Columbus...or what????

[David Zephyr]

5. KoKo, Please Read Up On The Horrors Perpetuated by Columbus

The opening chapter of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" immediately deals with the harsh, ugly truth behind Columbus the person and his "missions" to the Western Hemisphere.

There is nothing to celebrate about this man, but lots to condemn.

If one wants to make the day into something else such as a celebration of Italian-Americans then it should be so named and so honored.

Columbus was a mass murderer.

Here's the first chapter of the superb "People's History" by Zinn which opens with Columbus. http://www.horizons.k12.mi.us/~aim/papers/zinncolumbus.html

[Clete]

7. I almost couldn't get through it to read the rest of the book.

It gives you that same awful feeling that reading about the Holocaust does. Also, I watched the program yesterday on the History Channel about the conquest of Hawaii. It made me think about what destructive people the Europeans were. I mean they explored the world but they also destroyed civilizations and indigeneous peoples in the Americas, Africa, Australia, the Pacific and large parts of Asia, making the ones who survived slaves and an underclass to themselves.

[David Zephyr]

33. Yes.

My companion of thirty years in Latino. Years ago when I gave him Zinn's book to read he also choked up after that same first chapter and literally had to stop reading it as it tore him up so much.

I agree with what you have written above, Clete.

There is no honor, only shame, in celebrating this cruel and evil man's life.

[KoKo]

9. Clete, did you read my description of Columbus in my Post? Sheesh!

did you want me to list every gory thing he did. I though I portrayed him accurately!

[Clete]

11. I wasn't answering you.

I did read it but I was answering this post about Howard Zinn's chapter in his book.

[KoKo]

13. Sorry, I was pissed and answering David......LOL's

Crossposts!

[KoKo]

10. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! You didn't READ MY POST!

I don't care what you say......you didn't read it....You assume I havent read any History.

Pissed Off here......

[KoKo]

21. No, I don't believe that David Zephyr would have sent me an obscene post!

I didn't catch it until it was zapped! And, I was harsh on David.......

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

12. DU is in terrible shape if I get lectured to read Howard Zinn!

Maybe this should have been posted in I/P but change title to NA/AI.......Maybe I should just tuck out of Du. Either my posts aren't clear......or the "agenda" is too weighted. Sheesh.......

I think America still needs some "come together holidays." Some folks think we are evil to be here and we should go back to Scotland, Ireland, England, France, Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia, Poland, Russia, Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. etc.

[Clete]

15. I have been to many Native American pow wows

in the Northwest. They are great "getting together holidays".

[KoKo]

19. Potlatches? Why don't we have anything like that?

Why? I used to go to Native American Festivals in NYState many years ago. Tribes would come from all over the US to celebrate. I was sad that "we" didn't celebrate....I was there because I was sad that we invaded, but I also have to be glad that America was here for me.......that's what I'm getting at......sigh.....

[Clete]

22. Some DU'er Wiccan suggested that

we should celebrate the seasons, sort of a get back to nature thing. I always loved Thanksgiving for that reason, because it wasn't religious but included all Americans. Our holidays like Christmas and Easter were originally celebrations of the changing of the seasons. Now, Koko I know you are a Christian believer so don't get into it with me. I respect your beliefs. The fact is when, the churches tried to set holidays, no one had written down exactly when those events like the birth and crucification of Christ happened so they opted some of the pagan festival days to celebrate Christian holidays. It kept everybody happy.

[frank frankly]

23. sounds good to me

back to the earth!!!

[Clete]

28. I think if we celebrated earth holidays, people would

be more in tune with the environment and how it is being trashed. What if instead of the fourth of July being full of trash making parades and firecrackers, what if people took the day off not only to celebrate freedom but to honor places that we treasure as heritage sites and wildlife sanctuaries. It's just an idea.

[KoKo]

26. Oh no.....the "Pagan" aspect is very real to me. And that's what I'm

trying to say. Taking your post that Pagan Holidays correspond (in nature) with Christian holidays.
And, knowing that the history of Christian Celebrations were picked to correspond with what the native populations already celebrated in the Pagan, then I carry the though further and say:

Why can't we find some "compromise" on our American Holidays like Columbus Day..where we can celebrate Exploration and that America was a New Start for the World. But, the New Start for the World (if anythings left after BFEE) was on the Backs of the Native Americans and built with the sweat of our African Americans.

How can we reconcile this and still celebrate Columbus trip? Or, should we rather celebrate Erickson's first visit which many historians feel was the real founding of the New World?

Lief Ericson DAY? Celebrate Grapes? Harvest? ......as the Founding of America...???

[Sagan]

14. hoo boy.. I'm going to get in trouble for this..

I always have a great deal of difficulty in rationalizing the judging of historical figures using a contemporary moral compass.

Some, of course, are always bad. See Hitler. But I admire Columbus. The guy had guts. He was a born leader. He was convinced he was right, even though he was technically wrong.

Just as I admire Magellan and Cartier and De Soto and Cabot and Hudson, I admire Columbus -- the titan of the Age of Exploration. Certainly a man of his time, with all the ruthlessness, racism and brutality that that entails. But I still admire him, even if the results of his achievements were not very good.

[KoKo]

20. I know. When "Explorers do Bad Things. Sort of like that book "When Bad

things Happen to Good People."

We can look at Rummy and PNAC and say.....should the Iraqi's Celebrate their Liberation? I say NO, No , No! But then Rummy and PNAC didn't sacrifice anything to invade Iraq.

But, how can you really absolve our "explorers" for using Capitalism for looking for ways to get "Spices from the Orient?" Were they Capitalists, Adventurers, Explorers, Opportunists....all of the above?

[Clete]

25. They were brave in their day and apparently saw nothing

wrong with what they did, however, it doesn't mean we have to what they did. We still are not respecting the rights of indigenous people. If you can't see what is happening in the Middle East as a result of the same type of antiquated thinking, then I guess we deserve the hell we and our progeny will be in for a long time.

[Jesus H. Christ]

16. "Tried to kill native americans?"

The man depopulated entire islands.

[quinnox]

17. This is the kind of

example (whining about Columbus day) that the mainstream would use for the "loony left". It's the same kind of attitude - "America is evil, and always wrong" that is exhibited by these folks.

note for clarity: I am not speaking specifically about your post (which I tend to agree with), just in general.

[frank frankly]

18. I agree that this is something the mainstream/right would make fun of

and I couldn't care less.

let them defend Columbus Day.

let them defend the Washington "Redskins"

[KoKo]

24. Well, that's the point! We'ver all screwed up. We have to reach a

consensus about how we can CELEBRATE! We can't go aroung on the left feeling guilty about everything. We get into arguments with each other about how much more PC we can be while the Right Wing wins elections.

We need to have a summit over what groups and gripes we can get together and knock heads and figure how we're going to go on and get our own agenda together.

It's not enough for Native Americans and African Americans to come over to the Left because they know the Repugs don't like them and don't support their ideas. We have to understand that the Left is all African Americans and Native Americans, and Multiracial Diversity. I'm here, and I'm an English/French/Irish who Invaded America. No my family came to late to kill Native Americans and was too poor to employ slaves......but that doesn't let me off the hook.

But, I still am proud to be an American....because my ancestors came here because they couldn't "make it" in the "old World. So, how can we celebrate ourselves on the Left without having to have some kind of GUILT TRIP!!!

[frank frankly]

27. see the post about Wiccan/Nature Based Holidays

I don't consider this a guilt trip. I consider it appropriate.

This is where I am, this time and place, and here on October 13, 2003, things are still horrific for natives and certainly our earth.

And although I have barely a sliver of native ancestory, I empathize with them and strive to be more like they are. I don't think all my ancestors were terrible, but those of them that fought for justice and freedom for all are certainly my favorites.

I am glad when people are made to feel at least defensive on this "columbus day," because it is messed up to celebrate this man's legacy.

"Indians cracked on God's Highway bleeding
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind."
jim morrison

[KoKo]

29. Then how do we celebrate America? Leave it to July 4th? Would that work?

Can we reach consensus that we ditch Columbus.....and just do one holiday? :-)'s

Then we can do a celebration of FALL HARVEST. But, with "agribusiness" what really is "Fall Harvest?"

It's just a Corporate Holiday.....Celebrating the Con-Agra's and Tyson Poultry and Smithfield Pig Factories?

[Clete]

30. This is why it could work. Tyson and agri-business really

don't want you to see how they do the harvest. State fairs though can be a get together thing. I hate the animal husbandry and rodeo aspects, but the rest of it like the horticultural displays, pie and jam competitions can be fun.

[KoKo]

31. But, Clete, we already do that....and it isn't a national holiday......

Unless you're in the South or Midwest, most folks don't even remember what that stuff is.

A prize for the best pig? for the best jam? That's old 20th Century.

Today's fairs should elebrate the best "Genetically Engineered Tomato, Goat, Calf and Cotton Crop.

It's kind of hard to get worked up over that....and celebrate with parades. :shrug:

[Clete]

32. No they shouldn't celebrate "those tomatoes".

I don't know Koko, but Columbus is problematic these days except to Italians and Spaniards. We could have some nice national holidays though that don't celebrate genocide. What about Explorers Day? Nevermind Columbus, there are a lot of great explorers to celebrate like John Muir, Lewis and Clark and the Astronauts.

[reachout]

35. I will just add this...

With Lincoln and Washinton's birthday collapsed into Presidents Day, we now only really have two holidays that are named after indivduals. One was a great leader of the Civil Rights movement who was murdered because of his beliefs. The other was the first white slave trader in this hemisphere, who helped wipe whole tribes of people from the face of the Earth.

I agree there should be holidays where people come together...the operative word here being "people"...not Americans, not residents of this hemisphere...people. I really have no use for holidays involving nationalism. Nationalism is the problem.

[David Zephyr]

34. Yes, KoKo, We Should "Ditch Columbus".

I will agree with you on this point.

There are so many things, persons and events -- all American --that merit our celebration, our honor and our tribute, but not this man, Columbus.

Celebrating this man is offensive and divisive and not worthy of the American people.

[Bandit]

36. CREATE a NEW WAY OF LIVING.......A DEMOCRACY!

Evidently you didn't realize that a Democracy was what Native Americans lived under long before Columbus, who by the way did not live by Democracy he lived under a King and Queen. Our Constitution was based on the life style of the Iroquois Confederacy.