TIME's Best Presidents of the 20th century: Agree or disagree?

[George_Bonanza]

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/04/06/time/presidents.html

I think this list is pretty bipartisan. The top four are Democrats (Teddy was a Republican, but this was before the party ideology flip occured I believe), with the top one being the most Democratic of them all, yet Bush and Reagan ahead of Clinton? Reagan I can sort of believe due to his very high popularity which masked a lot of horrible decisions, but what did H.W. Bush do that Clinton didn't do?

[blm]

1. Hugh Sidey at TIME is a longtime Bush toady.

He never saw anything from Poppy Bush he couldn't spin into a sterling character trait.

PEEYUKE.

[George_Bonanza]

3. H.W. Bush compared to his son

He seems passable. At least he fought a war on very reasonable grounds. But his aborted call to an Iraqi uprising was crappy. Not to mention his crappy handling of the economy, of which I do not know specifics, but can tell there is an overwhelming sense of grief about it.

[pasadenaboy]

2. I guess W

is number 18? Just kidding.

[grytpype]

4. GHWBush & Reagan ahead of Clinton

I think the panel is putting a lot of weight on conducting a fairly big war with international support (GHWB) and ending the cold war arguably (Reagan).

Why penalize Clinton for having inherited a rather peaceful world situation? He did intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo.

[George_Bonanza]

5. I think that Reagan is over-credited with the fall of communism

A lot more credit can be attributed to other leaders, like the pope for one. Just stuff I read, no facts to really back it up.

[ender]

13. USSR was kaput in 1979

the 80's were just an insane last gorge for the military-industrial complex

[ironflange]

20. Absolutely

USSR was dead man walking for at least 15 years before it finally toppled. Giving ANY credit to Reagan is simply idiotic.

[morebunk]

6. Just more of the PR campaign for GW

They are pulling out all the stops because of the true polls.

[George_Bonanza]

9. This list is old

It has Clinton's term as ongoing. I don't think they prophesized the rise of G.W.

[BlueJazz]

7. Ronald Reagan beats JFK and Bill Clinton??

Is this the same Ronald Reagan that got a free pass on Iran-gate?
The same Ronald Reagan that Ran the National Debt to historic figures?
The Ronald Reagan who has the Lowly distinction of allowing NO increase in the Minimum Wage during his 8 years in office?
The Ronald Reagan who used to sleep through national security meetings?
The Ronald Reagan who used Astrology to guide the future of America?

Excuse me while I Puke for about an hour....

[George_Bonanza]

10. Astrology?

That's pretty funny!

[Zero Gravitas]

36. The very same

Ronald "Ketchup is a vegetable" Reagan.

[Snellius]

40. Check out Reagan's "accomplishments":

Chief accomplishments: Confronted Soviet threat; gutted Great Society programs

The "Reagan brought down the Soviet Union" thesis is purely post-Gingrich, convincing only to those who forgot, ignored, or never lived through the Reagan years. It's nothing but neo-con revisionism. There is no serious historian who argues that Reagan's military buildup had anything to do with the internal collapse of the Soviet Union. Carter's pulling out of the Olympics had as much influence as Reagan's "evil-empire" or "tear down this wall" demands.

[MisterP]

8. "Chief accomplishments:

Confronted Soviet threat; gutted Great Society programs"
uh-huhhhh...
this was made in 1998

[jayfish]

11. Pure BS And RW Tilt No Matter How Many Dems Are In The Top...

four.

Example #1

-SNIP-
6 RONALD REAGAN
Term: 1981-89

Chief accomplishments: Confronted Soviet threat; gutted Great Society programs

Biggest blunders: Iran-contra; national debt; "We begin bombing in five minutes..."

Historians' comments: "Brought about sea change"; "Maybe ended the cold war"; "Jury still out"
-SNIP-

The only way that you could call the gutting of Great Society programs an accomplishment is if you are a RW asshole.

Example #2

-SNIP-
5 DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
Term: 1953-61

Chief accomplishment: Quietly presided over period of peace and unprecedented prosperity

Biggest blunder: Reluctance to tackle civil rights issues

Historians' comments: "Articulated clearly the values shared by Americans"; "No hint of scandal either. The good old days"
-SNIP-

Ah yes the good old days. Oh... they weren’t talking about 1992-2000? I guess Bill just was'nt quiet enough for them.

And Finally

Example #3

-SNIP-
10 BILL CLINTON*
Term: 1993-

Chief accomplishments: Signed balanced-budget deal; ended federal welfare guarantee

Biggest blunders: Failed to pass health-care plan; Administration plagued by scandal

Historians' comments: "Jury out here too--maybe literally!"

*Only seven opinions given
-SNIP-

The jury's out on this fuc&ing list. The connotation of that line is that he shouldn't even be in the top ten.

Jay

[Art_from_Ark]

31. The (Eisenhower era) good old days

Could they possibly be referring to the McCarthy era? "Commies" behind every bu$h? Duck-n-cover drills in school? Fear of nuclear war with Russia?

[indigo32]

12. I can't buy any list

that puts Sr in front of Clinton. No way no how.
Plus they list Reagan gutting the Great Society as an accomplishment.

[George_Bonanza]

14. About Dwight

How was he? His two terms weren't the most exciting years, but he's certainly not as bad as current Republicans, is he? Some of his good deeds I can think of right now is severing ties with the violent Batista in Cuba, even though he was their right-wing puppet, and warning Americans of the military-industrial complex he foresaw coming.

[abcdan]

15. Old ranking

I wouldn't put too much stock in that list. The ranking was done in 1998, Clinton's impeachment year.

[FDRrocks]

16. Reagan gets a pass....

(he was a friggin idiot), mentions Iran-Contra en passant, and I scroll down to see that Clinton was 'plagued with scandals'.

[FlaGranny]

34. More aptly, it should have said

"plagued by unfounded accusations."

[SiobhanClancy]

17. I agree with number one

but much of that list is laughable. What legitimate historian would rate Harding that high? Or Bush? I'm laughing too hard to say any more.

[rasputin1952]

18. The thing that galls me the most...

is saying that Reagan, "confronted the Soviet threat". He bullied them when they were at their weakest, not really a grand thing, more like a schoolyard bully making fun of the kid with glasses and bucked teeth.

Reaganites swear that Reagan brought down the Soviet Union; and he did no such thing. Prior policies had everything to do with the cessation of the Soviet threat, Reagan just happened to be on watch during the fall. Looks good for him, but the notiuon that he had anything to do with the fall is absurd.

:nopity: for Reagan or his policies!

[jayfish]

19. The Buran

I saw a very good episode of Secret, Strange and True (TechTV) about the Buran. The program put forward a very compelling argument that the Buran played a central role in the final downfall of the CCCP.

http://www.techtv.com/secretstrangeandtrue/story/0,24330,3405164,00.html

Jay

BTW: Your handle fits this subject nicely.

[Art_from_Ark]

37. Reagan wasn't on watch during the collapse of the USSR

The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991-- Reagan left office in January 1989.

[Toby109]

21. How 'bout a comparison between DDE and Clinton?

Both moderates-let's not kid ourselves. Both presided over years of relative peace and posterity. After their terms were completed there was what? Americans do not really care for that. We want strife to give meaning to our lives. Vietnam, and now Iraq, have given it to us. Look! There are people living and dying in filth! I saw it on the T-V! All for a cause? Hah!

[onebigbadwulf]

22. Duh!

Dems are at the top because we're the only ones who care about everyone as a whole, instead of just tax breaks, military spending, and letting loose big business,

[SmileyBoy]

23. Coolidge ahead of Jimmy Carter???

I wouldn't put Carter in the top-10, but maybe at number 11 or 12. But Coolidge ahead of him??:wtf:

[Democat]

24. No bias at all in the list!

Clinton's biggest accomplishment: ended federal welfare guarantee

[Zorra]

25. Reagan? Bush? Is this a joke?

Honestly, what good did either of these guys do?

[Democat]

26. At least Reagan got elected twice

Bush got thrown out of office and they still put him above Clinton.

Clinton hating media bullshit.

[Piperay]

27. It's actually what Clinton did that

Bush didn't do...get a BJ. They are always going to let the scandal of sex influence them against ranking Clinton high the way they should. :argh: :grr:

[DeepModem Mom]

28. Eight of "top ten" would be Dems today

There are some problems with the list, but every President in the top ten, I believe, would be a Democrat in today's political climate, except for Reagan and Poppy.

[GOPBasher]

29. Very bipartisan.

For example, the credit Reagan for "gutting great society programs," yet they praise Lyndon Johnson for passing medicare and medicaid. Plus, it's top-heavy with democrats. Republicans would've put Reagan over FDR -- of course that's nuts, but they would've done it.

[sandnsea]

30. Totally nuts

Teddy is #2 and credit with trust busting and expanding federal lands. Reagan then comes along and undoes it and is then placed higher than Clinton who presided over the largest economic expansion in U.S. history. Bush 1 has nothing to his credit except GW1, which was arguably less successful than Kosovo and the Balkans. Crazy article, makes no sense at all.

[CMT]

32. Carter too far down and Bush too far up

I'd switch positions for them. Carter did more than the Camp David Accords. He also passed the Panama Canal Treaties, passed a Energy program which was actually working at lessening our dependence on overseas oil, completed formal recognition of China, Created more jobs during his term than the administrations of either Bush, Created Dept of Education, Passed Civil Service Reform, Pursued a strong policy against apartied in Africa, Passed and signed the Alaskan Lands Act--one of the greatest environmental advances of our times.

Yet he is hehind do-nothing Calvin Coolidge and George ("Read my Lips") Bush.

[UTUSN]

38. So RAYGUN's "Accomplishment" Is Gutting What LBJ Passed?

LBJ: "Passed Medicare, Medicaid, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act" - sounds good to me.

[OldSoldier]

33. It's in a slightly wrong order

This is what they should have done, their ratings in parentheses:

1 (1) FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT

2 (2) THEODORE ROOSEVELT

3 (3) WOODROW WILSON

4 (4) HARRY S TRUMAN

The top four I left alone.

5 (10) BILL CLINTON

Clinton gets moved up dramatically because of his economics. He doesn't pass the top four because when asked about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, he should have looked those senators right in the eye and said, "yes, I got a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky, and it was good. Now let's talk about your screwing around, Henry Hyde, and your asking for a divorce from your wife in the cancer ward, Newt Gingrich, and how you chose your Speaker of the House because he was the only Republican in Washington who wasn't screwing anything with a hole in it." If Clinton would have gone on the offensive he'd be in the top three, just below TR.

Clinton's best move: pulling out of Somalia as soon as it was evident that it was going to be a quagmire. I guess Clinton figured 18 flag-wrapped caskets were enough.

6 (5) DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER

7 (7) LYNDON B. JOHNSON

Johnson I don't know about, but I'll leave him in seventh. Does the Great Society override the Vietnam War?

8 (8) JOHN F. KENNEDY

9 (11) WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT

10 (TIE 12) GERALD FORD

Ford's job was to give Americans something to laugh about after Nixon. He was fairly good at it. Now he works as a greeter for $25,000 an appearance.

11 (TIE 12) CALVIN COOLIDGE

12 (14) JIMMY CARTER

13 (15) RICHARD NIXON

Richard Nixon was as crooked as a dog's hind leg. Hunter Thompson once wrote an apology to Nixon, in which he said that, so far as he knew, Richard Nixon didn't fuck pigs or sell used cars with cracked blocks, nor was he corrupt beyond the ability of modern man to describe it.

The nice thing about Richard Nixon was that you knew what you were getting. Everyone knew Richard Nixon was the slimiest bastard in politics at the time. There was no agitprop here like there is in the Bush administration; even the RNC knew Nixon was one step removed from Al Capone. Which is why I sometimes call Nixon "the last honorable Republican."

In Nixon's favor, he did open up the conduit to China. Admittedly, later and lesser administrations have corrupted it into a negative for the United States (that is, unless Sam Walton's in your family tree), but at the time it was good.

14 (16) WARREN HARDING

Teapot Dome. That was pretty bad--nothing like the oil scandals of the Dubya Bush administration, but a harbinger of things to come.

15 (9) GEORGE BUSH

George the Elder scores one ahead of Ronald Reagan because Bush was the evil behind the throne from 1981 to 1989. George Bush is never seen without his shoes because he has to hide his cloven hooves somehow. He armed Iran. He armed Iraq. He goaded Saddam into invading Kuwait, then put on a huge war just to show he was Billy Bad-Ass. After throwing the 1992 election, he sent the 10th Mountain to Somalia just so Clinton could start his administration with his very own Vietnam.

16 (6) RONALD REAGAN

Ronald Reagan was a likeable doofus, if you like doofuses in the first place. That was his job, stand up there and act presidential so the real president, George Bush, could perform his evil unnoticed. He did it reasonably well, except that the damn fool almost started a nuclear war with the Soviets over his "the missiles are on their way" comment. Fortunately, the commander of the Soviet air defense forces checked his radars, saw nothing was on them, decided it was just Ronnie attempting to be funny, and stood down.

17 (17) HERBERT HOOVER

Hoover screwed up his handling of the Great Depression.

[trogdor]

35. Bush 41 in the top ten?

No way. He tried to govern like Hoover, and probably would have made quite a mess had he been re-elected. Note that the presidents of the 20's were pinned to the bottom of the list - even lower than Nixon.

Gerry Ford, on the other hand, deserves his position in the middle of the pack. His administration was more like Eisenhower - kind of a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude that allowed him lots of time to play golf. If we must have a Republican president, I very much prefer the Ike model to the Hoover model.

Clinton was given a raw deal, although I don't entirely disagree with the position he got. He might have accomplished more if he were able to retain control of Congress and keep the VRWC at bay. I found it remarkable that he could continue doing a decent job while being hounded 24/7 by the Newties.

[recidivist]

39. HST "Overreached in the Korean War"???!!!! What the @#//*#!

Actually, my biggest quarrel with this list is the high ranking of Woodrow Wilson. He was a college professor who wrote books exalting the Imperial Presidency, which has always made him popular with the professoriate and advocates of expansive government. Big talkers like big talkers, and there's no doubt Wilson had "the vision thing," even if his visions were cracked.

But Wilson was a disaster as president: a virulent racist who set back civil rights by decades; a reckless adventurer who plunged us needlessly into the 20th century's most pointless war; one of the bunglers who gave us Versailles and a ticking time bomb leading to WWII. Wilson also intervened only briefly and ineffectually in Russia, when the Bolsheviks could and should have been decisively defeated and the world spared much misery and death.

That said, Wilson gets batted around pretty regularly around here when this topic comes up, so I'll move on the the biggest surprise on the list. This is the comment that Truman's biggest blunder was "overreaching" on the Korean War. What's up with that? Korea was a just war, and a strategically vital one. Our biggest mistake in Korea was settling for the status quo ante instead of driving back to the Yalu and making it stick. MacArthur was right about that, though wrong (and properly relieved) for publicly challenging the president.

It's also a little curious to see Eisenhower criticized for failing to tackle civil rights issues. Eisenhower, after all, is the man who sent federal troops to Little Rock to enforce school desegregation. He was a man of good will on racial issues though he was not an activist in the post-LBJ mold. But the "failing to tackle civil rights issues" more aggressively is a criticism that can be addressed to EVERY president prior to LBJ. Eisenhower does not really deserve to be singled out here.

[CoffeePlease1947]

41. Here is my order: Close in many respects

1 FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT
2 THEODORE ROOSEVELT
4 HARRY S TRUMAN
10 BILL CLINTON
8 JOHN F. KENNEDY
5 DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
7 LYNDON B. JOHNSON
14 JIMMY CARTER
12 CALVIN COOLIDGE
12 GERALD FORD
6 RONALD REAGAN
9 GEORGE BUSH
11 WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT
3 WOODROW WILSON
15 RICHARD NIXON
16 WARREN HARDING
17 HERBERT HOOVER

Mike