The day bashing Mother Theresa became acceptable

[ShaneGR]

A sad, sad, sad day for DU. Nevermind Bush. Forget about the economy and Iraq. Bah!

[JohnKleeb]

1. doesnt suprise me being the ever present Catholic bashing

[ShaneGR]

3. Yeah, I'm seriously wondering wtf is going on around here

The community as a whole has pretty much gone off the deepend.

[JohnKleeb]

4. I have no idea

:cry: its sad isnt it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

132. Catholics and Christians are evil, Pagans and Athiests are good

didn't you get the memo? It seems the majority of people here grew up Christian and have never forgiven their parents for making them go to church. Quel horror!

Everyone's all hard headed and rational unless it comes to "goddess religion" then the athiests shut up quickly don't they? Sorry, just ranting. I've decided to simply ignore the religion bashing threads.

[Dookus]

7. John....

c'mon. Are you saying we can't evaluate the life's work of ANY prominent catholic in a negative way without engaging in "catholic-bashing"?

If the Hitchens' accounts are true, then MT is *NOT* the unmitigated saint we were told she is. I think it's vital that we be able to discuss such things without being accused of bigotry.

I don't object to MT because she was Catholic. I object because she did precious little to actually prevent suffering.

[ShaneGR]

9. This is fucking ridiculous

Hitchens is a CONSERVATIVE columnist attempting to smear the good name of a catholic saint who died YEARS ago. What the hell does that have to do with what is going on in our country right now? NOTHING! NADA! ZILCH! ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dookus]

14. Hitchens' politics...

have nothing to do with the validity of his book on MT. And I will point out that he was not a conservative when it was written.

As MT is supposed to be canonized this month, it's a pertinent topic of discussion.

[ShaneGR]

17. His politics have nothing to do with it?

You know what, if you were standing in my living room I'd bunch you in the nose for listening to some RW spin on why helping poor people is bad. What have you done in your life, compared to mother theresa? You've done nothing compared to her. And neither have I.

[Dookus]

24. well...

you could "bunch" me all you want, but if you meant "punch", you'd better knock me out on the first blow.

As a point of logic, I'm arguing that Hitchen's positions on other political issues neither validate nor invalidate his research on MT. If you can prove he's lying, then bring forth the proof. But labeling him "conservative" does not automatically disqualify his arguments.

[scottxyz]

41. Before you advocate punching people in the nose, sgr2

Take a look at some of the things said in the articles. They weren't all said by Hitchens (who was once an excellent reporter, covering things like Kissenger's "war crimes", until he got deluded and supported the Iraq war).

One of the most horrible things stated in the article was that at Mother Teresa's Calcutta hospice people were allowed to DIE because they weren't given the right medicines, or they were actually KILLED by being given the wrong medicines.

For example: Australian Catholic nurse Tracey Leonard, who wrote in her 1990 book "The Full Catastrophe" about operations run by the Missionaries of Charity ... {wrote} "I have seen them give the steroid Prednisolone instead of paracetamol, because both start with the letter 'p'. Whenever I yell at them and accuse them of murdering the patients they simply smile and tell me that it is all in God's hands." {emphasis added}

Neither you nor I were there, but there are many reports such as the above account from a Catholic nurse at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

The original DU thread on this is at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

(The current thread we're in now might get locked, due to new General Discussion Rule 5 against splitting a thread.)

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scottxyz]

110. Cheswick, do you think quoting Catholic priests and nuns

...who reported that an overzealous or deluded Mother Teresa deliberately withheld live-saving medicines from poor sick people is "right-wing"?

[scottxyz]

18. Hitchens is not the only person quoted in these articles

What do you make of the quote below, from a Calcutta-born writer:

A more moderate and more scholarly analysis was published in 2002 by Aroup Chatterjee, a writer born in Calcutta and living in England who briefly worked for one of Mother Teresa's homes. The 425 page book "The Final Verdict" is probably the most comprehensive critical analysis of Mother Teresa's life and work to date.

Chatterjee cites Australian Catholic nurse Tracey Leonard, who wrote in her 1990 book "The Full Catastrophe" about operations run by the Missionaries of Charity:

"Unfortunately Jesus is not the one giving out the medication or administering injections to the patients. He, I would trust to get it right but his helpers have a lackadaisical approach to matters medical. I have seen them give the steroid Prednisolone instead of paracetamol, because both start with the letter 'p'. Whenever I yell at them and accuse them of murdering the patients they simply smile and tell me that it is all in God's hands."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

{emphasis added}

[DemBones DemBones]

51. I'd say that Tracey Leonard is perhaps a racist and/ or an elitist,

unable to appreciate that the Indian women who enter Mother Teresa's order, the Missionaries of Charity, are not trained nurses and may not be educated enough to avoid errors in administering drugs. That is not a good thing, by any means, but receiving a dose of Prednisolone instead of a dose of Paracetamol is unlikely to harm most people, nor are the terminally ill who are in hospice care likely to be cured by medication, and certainly not by Paracetamol, which is plain old acetaminophen.

You made a point of adding emphasis to this quote:

"Whenever I yell at them and accuse them of murdering the patients they simply smile and tell me that it is all in God's hands."

I don't think anyone has ever been murdered by receiving Prednisolone instead of Paracetamol. I doubt that anyone has ever been harmed by such a medication error.

I will also point out that nuns are pretty much supposed to believe "that it is all in God's hands" and that it's my experience that people from non-Western cultures are more accepting of that viewpoint. So, yet again, I wonder if Tracey Leonard has some problems with elitism/ racism. Certainly this quote that you chose suggests that.

[scottxyz]

79. It's racist/elitist for you to excuse Indians who can't read a drug label

Aren't you setting the bar rather low for people who are supposed to be dedicated to helping out in a hospice?

I would set the bar a bit higher than you do. I would expect more from those caretakers. If it were a language problem, they could have posted a sign on the wall translating terms like "Paracetamol" and "Prednisolone" into the local language so the caretakers wouldn't be randomly administering the wrong drugs.

It might also be racist or elitist of you to state that "people from non-Western cultures are more accepting of {the} viewpoint" "that it is all in God's hands." I bet some of those patients would have been quite happy if they could have gotten the right medication and lived, instead of dying for the glory of an exogenous religion.

[BigDaddyLove]

12. What have YOU done.......

to actually prevent suffering in the world?

Probably a whole bunch less than Mother Theresa.

[Dookus]

16. well...

I've done volunteer work with AIDS patients, holding their hands while they died. And I administered morphine to them to alleviate their pain.

Mother Teresa would've let him suffer for christ without pain relief.

But I also have not raised millions of dollars on the basis of my "humanitarian efforts".

[BigDaddyLove]

27. You'll get no........

argument from me with regard to your sig.



I do however applaud your work with the dying....did it myself; tough stuff.

[Dookus]

31. thank you...

yes it is tough stuff.

I don't claim to have dedicated my life to the poor and suffering, but I don't think that means I can't have an opinion about MT.

And congratulations... you're the first person to use that attack about my sig line. I actually expected it a long time ago, but you're the first in the 3 weeks I've had it.

Seriously... I think it's possible to have opinions about MT, or the Pope, or the Dalai Lama, or any religious figure, that are not overwhelmingly positive and still not be a bigot.

[scottxyz]

42. Mother Teresa withheld painkillers, said pain meant "Jesus is kissing you"

Dookus claims "Mother Teresa would've let {a patient} suffer for {C}hrist without pain relief."

Several reports, however, contradict this. For example:

Susan Shields, who says that she was employed by a Missionaries of Charity facility in the Bronx and remained in the order for nine and a half years until she left in May 1989 published an article in Free Inquiry Magazine. In it, she wrote:

Mother was very concerned that we preserve our spirit of poverty. Spending money would destroy that poverty. She seemed obsessed with using only the simplest of means for our work. Was this in the best interests of the people we were trying to help, or were we in fact using them as a tool to advance our own "sanctity?" In Haiti, to keep the spirit of poverty, the sisters reused needles until they became blunt. Seeing the pain caused by the blunt needles, some of the volunteers offered to procure more needles, but the sisters refused.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

= = =

Even patients in unbearable pain were refused strong painkillers, not because the order did not have them, but on principle. "The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ," said Mother Teresa. Once she had tried to comfort a screaming sufferer, "You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you." The sufferer screamed back, furious, "Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me."

From an article in Germany's Stern magazine, translated here:
http://are.berkeley.edu/~atanu/Writing/teresa.html

= = =

[Tinoire]

84. Did it ever cross your mind

and I say this from YEARS of experience working with Catholic nuns who tended the poor in Haiti, that there is SIMPLY not enough medicine? That you are dealing with two totally different medical realities here? Aspirin in these countries, thanks to the way richer countries squeeze the poorer ones dry, is practically worth its weight in gold?

You are unwittingly displaying the very Western arrogance of judging situations by your own limited experience and not by the reality of the the people in the situation.

The typical Yanqui ignorance displayed in this thread is so heart-breaking.

No offense meant, but this thread is a perfect example of why so many red, white, and blue Americans can not appreciate what someone like Kucinich stands for. You can't empathize with a situation that's different from your own. You've never been really poor have you? And you can't tell me you're poor now because you live in a wealthy town and even though you're unemployed, you drive a 98,000 car (unless your thread in the lounge was a joke but I don't think it was). Dookus you're adorable in many ways, you're my Bay Area brother but you can't possibly understand the realities of a clinic for the poor in a third world country. Get with Cheswick, he/she worked with them in Haiti too. It is NOTHING like what you imagine and nothing you can accurately judge with comfortably sheltered eyes. And sadly, I think the poor of Haiti had more because of all the crooked US aid and benevolent missionary aid than the poor of Calcutta did.

And yes I do admire you for what you've done because it's necessary and I appreciate it because my best friend died of aids a few years ago and I would have sold my soul to put him out of his pain BUT you thank God had the luxury of access to Morphine. Mother Teresa's nuns probably had enough morphine for a dozen cases a month. Aspirin had to do for the rest and because they usually don't even have enough of that, even that aspirin has to be doled out which means that some people have to go without- because they are in relatively slight pain.

God bless you for the work you've done but please don't mis-appreciate someone else just because they did not have our means.

Hope this post comes across in the spirit it was meant- one of peace.

[Dookus]

96. tinoire...

thanks. I take it in peace.

But I think you're totally bypassing the argument being made. The argument is NOT that MT fell short in what she meant to do because of a lack of resources. The argument is that she INTENTIONALLY abetted the suffering of thousands. She wasn't short of money. Nobody's saying she couldn't afford morphine for her patients. She REFUSED to use painkillers for her patients. THAT is what we're discussing.

on edit: not just painkillers, but proper meds or clean needles.

[scottxyz]

115. I'm very sorry your friend died of AIDS, Tinoire

Did your friend get sick from HIV/AIDS late enough to be able to benefit from the life-saving "cocktails" which came out around 1996 or so? HIV can now a manageable "chronic" disease for people who can afford access to these drugs, provided they are administered on time and the patient adheres to the daily dosing regimen (two or three times a day indefinitely).

The Stern article reports that millions of dollars were given to Mother Teresa, and she refused to spend that money on life-saving drugs. This means that many people whose lives could have been saved died needlessly.

Now that you have told me about how your friend died of AIDS while taking morphine I am starting to worry that Mother Teresa may have denied HIV patients anti-retroviral cocktails, because of her deluded belief that suffering and dying are good.

[iverglas]

124. medicine in third world countries

I've been treated at a hospital in Havana. This weekend, I'll be hosting a visiting Canadian friend who, for years, was the doctor in charge of a large community clinic there. I had no trouble getting x-rays and a tetanus injection and pennicillin in a modern medical facility there, 25 years ago. Not because I was a rich tourist (I was treated free of charge), but because that was the standard of care.

If Batista had still been running the joint, I have absolutely not a shred of doubt that Teresa would have been dining with him at the Tropicana off the money he bled from his country, and next day telling his victims, dying without medical attention, that suffering was good for their souls. And holding hands with his wife, just like she did with Baby Doc Duvalier, whose initial personal fortune came from the corrupt national lottery he used to suck and extort money from the people of Haiti.


"Mother Teresa's nuns probably had enough morphine for
a dozen cases a month. Aspirin had to do for the rest
and because they usually don't even have enough of that,
even that aspirin has to be doled out which means that
some people have to go without- because they are in
relatively slight pain."

Karol Woytyla just never seems to be told to take an aspirin and come back next week.

And damn, I seem to recall Teresa herself getting a little more than that. Doctors and hospitals for her, wasn't it?

.

[Cheswick2.0]

99. this is not acceptable just because you share the bias

sorry but you can make anyone look bad if you hate what they stand for.
If we want to look at the suffering of the Indian people maybe we should be looking at the government and the native religions which have caused such poverty and suffering. Lets examine the whole sacred cow issue to see what damage has been caused by that little bit of Hindu nonsense.

[iverglas]

121. yes, Dookus

"Are you saying we can't evaluate the life's work
of ANY prominent catholic in a negative way
without engaging in "catholic-bashing"?

At least, that's certainly what the Catholic Defence League, the Catholic Civil Rights League, the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, and all their other incarnations say. Ask Google.

(And I give up. If Christopher Hitchins is "conservative", what the bleeding hell is Karol Wojtyla? Call him Pope John Paul if you like ... he's still a right-wing misogynist.)

It's "catholic-bashing" to place materials on public school curricula that recognize the realities of the lives of children of gay/lesbian parents. Heck, in my town, the local Catholic Defence League ("one guy with typewriter", as far as one could tell) objected to the (publicly-funded) RC schools teaching students in sex ed classes that "uterus" was another word for "womb", because that word is used to talk about Mary. Go figger. I had that particular letter to the editor stuck to my fridge for years, just to remind me of the absurdity of life.

It's "catholic-bashing" for a television network to run a series about an RC priest who isn't perfect. It's "catholic-bashing" to produce a Broadway play about a Jesus who wasn't perfect. It's "catholic-bashing" for anyone to express a different opinion about something that the RC church has an official line on and claims exclusive authority in respect of, and criticize that line or dispute that authority.

"I think it's vital that we be able to discuss such things
without being accused of bigotry."

Silly you. Why should the actions of an organized, powerful group and its adherents, which have effects for both good and bad in the world, be subject to public scrutiny? You don't expect to be able to criticize Republicans for what they do, surely??

"I don't object to MT because she was Catholic.
I object because she did precious little to actually
prevent suffering.

And others, including me, object because, in our ever so humble opinions, she did considerable to actually exacerbate suffering. Check out her words of wisdom on contraception, not to mention abortion. Is it reasonable, or likely, that I will admire someone on whom the most virulent anti-choice organizations choose to confer honours? Is that person's religion likely to be the primary factor in my contempt for her? Would I hold her in the same contempt if she were Jewish, or Zoroastrian, or agnostic? You betcha.

And I object to the Vatican and its henchpeople because of what they do in the world. What they believe is of precious little interest to me.


Of course, I'm just a damned atheist. One who has nonetheless worked closely with many RCers on a wide range of social justice and international development issues, and campaigned and voted for numerous RC candidates for political office (and been campaigned and voted for by RCers when I was a candidate). The atheist who, with my mother, organized her beloved father's funeral in his progressive protestant denomination church to include, as two of the officiators, the Mennonite layman and the RC nun with whom he had prayed and sung regularly while in an RC nursing home. If there had been a Muslim or Buddhist chaplain at the home, I have no doubt that my grandfather would have been on close terms with them and we would have invited them too. (At the memorial for her mother, who was not religious, the lesbian ex-minister of that progressive protestant denomination, a childhood neighbour of theirs, spoke.)

No, we don't count, and our opinions about the temporal actions of a supposedly "spiritual" organization and its adherents are all just some sort of bigotry. And no evidence that we are not expressing prejudice or hatred of anyone based on their characteristics, as distinct from criticism of their behaviour based on our criteria for judging behaviour as ethical or unethical, just or unjust, will ever be addressed.

Damn, I might call it bigotry to call me a bigot; to characterize my reasoned and sincere disagreement with and criticism of the public policy positions and actions of a group of people and their leaders as hatred, without any foundation whatsoever. To disregard everything I say, and discredit everything I think, and demonstrate such utter disrespect for me (not to mention for all of the people whose lives their church interferes in and tries to interfere in) because of their own "religious" beliefs ... isn't that just what bigots do? Isn't that what they're doing?

And just because I know how hard some folks work at misunderstanding / misrepresenting what gets said ... when I say "they", I ain't talking about RCers. I'm talking about anyone who attempts to deny those with different characteristics (be it race or religion or anything else) equal treatment, and attempts to suppress dissent on the part of anyone who doesn't share their characteristics.

.

[REP]

8. The RCC is Not Blameless

The RCC has been discussed lately because of the poor way it has been handling things: the rape of children in the US; the rape of nuns by priests in 23 countries; its recent study saying condoms do nothing to halt the spread of AIDS; etc. It is with the organization, and not its lay adherents, that some of us have problems.

[JohnKleeb]

13. Not that REP

I am not talking about that at all. I agree with your problems with it there, I just dont like being called a sheep for my faith,

[REP]

19. That Hasn't Been Done in Either Thread Dealing With Teresa

Criticism of the RCC is not criticism of its lay adherents. You know this.

[JohnKleeb]

22. I know

Ok I gave it an objective look, I hope this isnt true. Youre right I made a mistake. Look theres just a certain poster at DU, I dont wanna name names because I dont want to but well I cant get in to it. In fact if this is true what I am reading then it isnt bashing but is a sad thing really. Sorry if I was judgemental but Ive became defensive.

[scottxyz]

39. The reports about Mother Teresa are indeed shocking

So it is understandable if people are getting upset when they hear this, after the very positive image we have had about Mother Teresa.

The original thread was at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

if people are interested in checking it out.

[jsw_81]

61. If you're sick of "Catholic bashing"

...then I suggest your church quit acting like a criminal organization with regards to the THOUSANDS of young boys who were molested by your "holy" priests. And quit telling the world's women what to do with their bodies. While you're at it, quit telling poor people in Africa and Asia that condoms don't prevent AIDS. People are dying horrible deaths because of the propaganda your church is spreading, and many people, myself included, are rather pissed off about it.

As far as Mother Theresa goes, she should be fully exposed if she was guilty of the things that Hitchins (and others) are accusing her of doing. And frankly, it looks like she was guilty as hell.

[JohnKleeb]

89. I gave it an analization and realized it was sad

You think the molestion only happens by the priests.

[MarkTwain]

103. Bravo...

.... she's just another one of tens of thousands of frauds, deceits, and evils perpetrated by an arrogant, corrupt, selfish, and hateful institution that makes the Bush Cabal look, well, almost like "Mother Teresa."

Or, at least, that idealized version which the Roman church has installed as yet another of its thousands of myths for the ongoing purpose of hoodwinking the masses of the gullible into signing on to their superstitious scheme.

The boorish reaction of those on this board who elect to shoot the messenger in place of debating his message says a lot about the quality of the opposition to the criticisms he puts in place. Very telling, indeed.

And a pity for open dialogue on this board.

[scottxyz]

107. How Mother Teresa became so anti-life

{Here is some very thought-provoking analysis by eco-philopher Paul Shepard (in Coming Home to the Pleistocene) on how the pastoral (shepherd/cowboy) life may have contributed to the hatred of life on earth we see in many modern world religions. This worship of sky gods and the afterlife - at the expense of the here-and-now - helps explain how neurotics such as cowboy George W Bush and beatific Mother Teresa can be so complacent about working to encourage the suffering and death of people they claim to be helping.}

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559635894/qid=1066131647/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2968461-2561652?v=glance&s=books

From 'Coming Home to the Pleistocene' by Paul Shepard

{Joseph} Campbell has given us a deeply moving description of worldwide ceremonial practices among civilized and agrarian peoples, including those at the heart of Buddhism, Islam and Christendom.* Yet, all the theatrical activity of his book amounts to page after page of bloody violence. It documents the underlying murderous and suicidal character that became common in these cultures. The immolation of the god is the central theme of Christianity, a self-sacrifice to redeem the believer's soul. Christianity's hostility to nature was celebrated in its asceticism, an orientation common to other religions as well.

...
For hunter/gatherers the living metaphor of cosmic power is other species; for farmers it is the mother; for pastoralists {cowboys, essentially} it is the father. For urban peoples it has become the machine.

...

The cosmology of animal keepers was very different from that of farmers, whose gods and goddesses tended to be deeply connected to the soil and whose views tended toward a horizontal orientation as if determined by the way they looked out across the cultivated fields for the first signs of prosperity or disaster. Looking up to the spirits of storms, the sky, the wind, and the sun, the pastoralists developed a vertical, hierarchical pantheon, the most divine or most powerful deity at the top.

The earliest stockkeepers were peaceful. ... In time the pastoralists, even more than farmers, looked increasingly for deliverance to the sky and the mountains, where storms were engendered, living as they did in marginal habitats, made more so by overgrazing by their cattle, where rain was scarce and bestowed by arbitrary gods. The grasses greened quickly after showers and were just as quickly eaten, forcing the livestock and their owners to move on.

To be on horseback is not only to be godlike but it is also to see the earth itself as the underworld. It is no wonder that all the "great" or "world" religions are embedded in pastoral motifs. ...

Power over ever larger herds of ungulates, hence over people, swept all the earlier benign soft-herding away. That sense of power was further energized by the dream of flight triggered by the rapture of horseriding, the kinetic form of pyramidism, the architectural expression of leaving the earth, given the ecstatic realization of "flight" mythically taken on horseback. The horse was the end-of-world mount of Vishnu and Christ. As famine, death and pestilence, it was the apocalyptic beast who carried Middle East sky worship and the sword to thousands of hapless tribal peoples and farmers from India to Central America.

All forms of escape from the earth - and the corollary of escape from the physical body - were probably unconsciously motivated by the desire to escape the degradation of the land, which began in Mesopotamia some eight thousand years ago. The sky dominated the world of the pastoralists and they seasonally beseeched a series of pantheons, headed by a sky god accompanied by a lesser earth goddess, for redeeming rain to ease the scorching aridity. The succession of spirits of the sky, older than the Jewish Bible, were {sic} presented as residents of an ethereal paradise who repudiated the earth as a true home. By the time of the first city-states in Mesopotamia, 2,000-3,000 years BC, the destruction of the land had generated chronic insecurity. To this, cattle keepers added the concept of moving to greener pastures, the ultimate power of the sky with its weather gods, the messianic rites of beseeching, and submission to distant powers, attitudes that later would produce our skyscraper mentality, that desire for transcendence or "ascensionism", the yearning, which can so dominate cosmology, to escape the earth. Only the birds (who became angels) were freed from that to which humans seemed bound.

...

Wherever the Indo-Europeans encountered indigenous cults, the victory over them was mythologized as a battle between a sky god and earth dragons such as the Greek Titans and Typhons. {Also see the legend of Saint George who slew the dragon.}

...

Through our religious heritage, we became the jumping-off people, interested in sky fathers and heavenly homes. Psychologically, the messiah complex is a cry for "mother" or "father". It means that our own carelessness or misdeeds will be salvaged by an outsider who arrives with the power to save us. For planters help comes from the earth. For pastoralists it comes from over the horizon. ... A posse that comes riding over the hill to save us in time of crisis is its prototype.

...

The ritual by which modern ranchers celebrate themselves ... reveals the same underlying themes of subordination of nature, immature ideals, the symbiosis of man and horse, territorial and spatial hegemony, the individual as macho hero, and misogyny.


= = =

*Joseph Campbell, 'The Way of the Seeded Earth, Part I', 'Historical Atlas of World Mythology, volume 2'.

[Dookus]

2. I disagree....

I think the vast majority of people only know the "image" of Mother Teresa. The facts of her work, though, don't match that image and I see nothing wrong with bringing them to light.

I also believe that it's possible to have opinions about multiple people at once.

[ShaneGR]

6. Personally I think it's anti-catholic bullshit

I'm sorry, is the woman around to defend herself? No, she's off in heaven or wherever. Since when did DU become a forum for careful investigation of dead catholic saints? I thought this was about American Politics, not dead catholics.

[Dookus]

10. Again..

I have to disagree.

Are you proposing that all dead Catholics be exempt from negative appraisals? Mother Teresa? Savonarola? Pope Pius XII? John Kennedy?

Sometimes people's lives really aren't what the myths say they are. To accuse anybody who points that out of bigotry is a kneejerk reaction, IMO.

And MT is not a saint yet. Later this month, I hear...

[ShaneGR]

11. No dookus

I'm saying that this board is for politics, not investigation of dead catholic saints. You seem to have forgotten that.

[Dookus]

20. Well...

this is actually a board that discusses a variety of issues, and religion intersects with politics on many levels. I think the discussions are worthwhile.

If you don't think they are, why start a thread on it?

[scottxyz]

43. Actually sgr2 started this thread in response to an earlier thread

The earlier thread which brought up the reports criticizing Mother Teresa was at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

In fact, the thread we're in right now might get locked by the moderators, because there is a new General Discussion rule (Rule 5) against starting a new thread to continue a "flame war" on an existing one.

[scottxyz]

34. Healthcare for poor sick people IS politics

I disagree with you, sgr2. Surely you are not implying that we can only talk about politicians and government programs on this board?

Mother Teresa received millions of money in donations from charitable persons and organizations, and yet there are many people who claim that she refused to spend this money on things like medications that could have cured people or painkillers which could have alleviated people's suffering.

Here's a political (or perhaps more economic) question for you: Look at the closing lines in the article from Stern magazine (a conservative magazine from Germany which was not given to Catholic-bashing and which probably had no ties with Hitchens):

She wrote a few words and hung them outside Mother House:

"Tell them we are not here for work, we are here for Jesus. We are religious above all else. We are not social workers, not teachers, not doctors. We are nuns."

One question then remains: For what, in that case, do nuns need so much money?

I realize these reports about Mother Teresa are quite shocking to you - I myself was totally surprised when I stumbled across them today. However it is possible that due to some kind of overgrown belief in the afterlife, Mother Teresa was insensitive to the needs of people suffering in THIS life.

Healthcare and allocation of funds for the poor and sick in this life is a VERY political issue, so I hope you will agree, sgr2, that it's perfectly normal and indeed vital to discuss something like this in a political forum such as DU.

[Kellanved]

67. Stern conservative?

No, not really. And the Stern fucked up so bad with the Hitler diaries that it lost all creditability.

[Dookus]

71. huh?

The Hitler Diaries were an issue 20 years ago. Do you really think NOTHING published in Der Stern is valid because of that?

People keep attacking Hitchens, or the nun who worked with MT, or Stern.... but nobody attacks the actual ARGUMENTS.

If you have information that Hitchens' (and others') accounts are false, present it. But attacking the source of the information is logically unsound.

[Kellanved]

75. neither do I

I just want to remind everyone that the Stern's level is only marginally better than a tabloid's.( It's a big pictures - short articles magazine). It never recovered from the diaries, it is not close to what it was, even today.

They have good articles from time to time; sometimes with great journalism. I don't contest the truth of the matter discussed in this thread - nor that of the article. Sorry.


And it's not what I would call a "conservative" magazine - that would be the "Focus".

[scottxyz]

114. Stern magazine or Hitchens isn't the issue - it's Chatterjee's book

The most extensive documentation of Mother Teresa's abuse of indigent patients comes from a book written by a native of Calcutta, available on -line at:

http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html

[scottxyz]

118. I agree Stern isn't quite as respectable as Focus

I think the most respected German magazines are Focus and Der Spiegel.

However, it isn't just Stern making these accusations about Mother Teresa. The most detailed report is in a book by a writer born in Calcutta, available in its entirety on-line at:

http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html

Also, bear in mind that the "gutter press" sometimes does get things right. The National Enquirer was the publication that broke the story on Rush Limbaugh's drug use, I think.

[Kellanved]

119. Focus isn't respected at all

"Die Zeit" and "Der Spiegel" are about the only German weeklys worth the paper they're printed on.
Stern is without a real political direction; Focus is openly Right-Wing.
And I concur: this issue has little to do with the people bringing the message.

[REP]

15. You Have The Right to That Opinion

Teresa is not yet a saint, you know; she has only been beatified. And indeed she is dead, but her myth lives on. If she were a member of another religious organization yet behaved the same way, she would still be held up to scrutiny once it became apparent she was not who she and her PR said she was.

If we were truly criticizing the RCC, some of us would question the doing away with the Devil's Adovocate and the Pope's Marian Theology. Since this is, however, not a board dealing with the problems of the RCC, those issues shall be discussed elsewhere, and not by me.

[Maple]

5. Oh I think that DU

is an equal opportunity basher.

And no one is above criticism.

[Uroboros]

23. True

Especially if there is something that person can rightfully be criticized for. Future saint or not.

[Syrinx]

21. There is corruption in the Vatican

Just as in every government. Remember Sister Severia on 60 Minutes a few years ago? Evil... I'm not anti-Catholic at all, but there is something wrong with the Church.

[ShaneGR]

25. THAT'S IT! I've had just about enough of this crap

When the board has degenerated to the point that a moderator would allow a poster (A fairly new one at that) to post material from a conservative columnist, clearly in an effort to distort the record of a dear, and deceased, catholic saint...

Time to move on to greener pastures for a while. This place is starting to literally smell.

[Dookus]

26. moderators...

neither allow or disallow people to post things.

If you think a post breaks the rules, hit the alert button.

And remember, MT is dear to you, but not necessarily everyone else. That's fair... we all have our heros. I can defend mine, and I don't get upset when fair criticism of them is made.

And I think you meant "figuratively" smell.

[ShaneGR]

30. No, I meant it really does smell

Like crap that is. I'm going to have to scrub down my computer now. BTW, this is a clear violation of rule 3, no posting of conservative material (especially by low-posters).

Speaking of low posts, go take a look at how many posts he has. 666. What a surprise.

[Dookus]

32. I'll repeat...

Christopher Hitchens was not a conservative when that book was written.

And again, if you think a post violates any of the rules, please hit Alert. I'm not a GD mod, so I won't get it. Somebody else will.

on edit:

And the misuse of "literally" is one of my pet peeves. It would be impossible for an electronic forum to "smell". Figuratively, it's a valid expression, but it can't be literal.

[ShaneGR]

36. what the hell are you talking about?

First off, you're tagged as a moderator. So you are.

Second off, what kind of crap is this he didn't used to be a conservative but now he is. If he's a conservative now, he was ALWAYS a conservative.

RULE 3: 3. If you post an article or other published content which is from a conservative source or which expresses a traditionally conservative viewpoint, you must state your opinion about the piece and/or the issues it raises.

[Dookus]

37. Moderators...

are assigned particular forums.

GD is not mine. That's what the hell I'm talking about.

And you may want to cut down on the profanity if you're serious about being Catholic.

[REP]

35. You Mean Figuratively

And the poster did not violate Rule 3, as you well know.

[REP]

29. Have You Read "The Missionary Position"?

Did you know it was written in 1994? Did you know Hitchens had not changed his political philosophy at that time? Can you cite specific errors - at all - in that work?

Have you read the other works cited, or would you prefer to think that criticism of one Catholic is the exact same as criticising all of Catholicism?

[Uroboros]

33. Oh come on!

Are you saying the issue shouldn't be debated because it's concerns Mother Theresa. Do we not discuss anything if it's somebody's scared cow?

Material is posted and we discuss it. Some agree some don't; that's the whole point of a forum. If one doesn't agree they present an opposing opinion; you don't decided that the original information shouldn't be posted or disallowed.

[DemBones DemBones]

58. Discuss all the "scared cows" you like. But don't complain when

Catholics leave the Democratic Party for the GOP.

GD is a POLITICAL forum, for discussing POLITICS, not dead nuns whom some think are saints.

[Dookus]

60. Again...

I asked you before, and I asked others in this thread:

Is it your position that any prominent Catholic should be automatically immune to criticism? If so, does this rule only apply to Catholics? What about Baptists? Buddhists?

And if you want to switch parties because some people think INDIVIDUAL Catholics aren't necessarily perfect, then go see how well Catholics, as a whole, are received among the fundy right.

[WoodrowFan]

105. If so, does this rule only apply to Catholics? What about Baptists?

Personally I think it should only apply to Presbyterians. :)

Seriously, I don't think asking if Mother Theresa was REALLY so saintly is so bad. When I mentioned some of her record to my wife (who was raised Catholic) she was shocked, but not offended. And it seems to me since this Pope made sure she'd be canonized (sp) for what appears to be political reasons within the church, I think it's a fair topic.

[scottxyz]

120. Withholding painkillers medicines from poor people IS a political issue

DemBones, I disagree with you where you state: "GD is a POLITICAL forum, for discussing POLITICS, not dead nuns whom some think are saints."

If somebody deliberately refuses to use millions of dollars of available funds to provide life-saving medications to poor people, then that IS a political issue - whether it's Mother Teresa doing it out of overzealousness or a right-wing Republican doing it for whatever mean-spirited reasons they do it.

If Mother Teresa did these horrible things that some priests and nuns claim she did - encouraging medications and painkillers to be withheld from patients, encouraging dirty needles to be used on patients - and if she told patients to their face that Jesus WANTED them to suffer... then that kind of madness needs to be exposed.

[scottxyz]

45. Hitchens is now a conservative on Iraq, as you say sgr2

But an article criticizing someone about to be conferred sainthood isn't necessarily "conservative" if the article points out some bad things people claim that person had done, and many other people are quoted in the articles criticizing Mother Teresa, including Catholic nuns. Please don't focus just on Hitchens, and look at the statements made by the CATHOLICS in Calcutta who criticized Mother Teresa's refusal to give basic medicines and painkillers to alleviate people's suffering.

In fact, if we have to choose between labeing such an article as "conservative" or "liberal", then it could be argued that the article should be labeled "liberal". The article criticizes Mother Teresa for causing people needless pain and suffering, presumably because she felt, as she stated, that the suffering of the poor and the sick was a GOOD thing in the eyes of Jesus.

A liberal viewpoint would argue that the needless suffering of the poor and the sick is a BAD thing, and that Mother Teresa, if she indeed favored letting poor and sick people suffer, was very wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

100. Hitchens is a vicious bitter drunk

he is a petty creep. This whole thread stinks.

[scottxyz]

116. Don't talk about Hitchens then - talk about Chatterjee's book

http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html

Stop attacking the messenger Cheswick (I agree with you that Hitchens is a "vicious bitter drunk" - I used to like him when he went after Kissinger for war crimes but when he supported the Iraq war I lost faith in him).

Start looking at the message - coming from MANY people who were in Calcutta - particularly the native Calcuttan who wrote the book at the link above.

[Forkboy]

86. We'll miss you

:eyes:

[JustJoe]

28. LOL. How about "Ariel Sharon, 'Hell's Angel.'"

How long would a thread with that title last in GD?

[scottxyz]

38. In case this dupe thread gets locked (under Rule 5)

Here is the original thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

I realize that it is quite shocking to hear this criticism of Mother Teresa. However, if it is true, it is important for it to be heard.

[incapsulated]

40. Hitchens

Since his book came out, bashing Teresa has hardly been new. So what? This is worse than an epidemic of child sexual abuse?

:eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

44. It has always disgusted me how much anti-Catholicism there is at

DU. And as JustJoe says, imagine how long a thread titled "Ariel Sharon, Hell's Angel," would last in GD.

I don't care if Christopher Hitchens claimed to be a liberal when he wrote his nasty book about Mother Teresa, he was anti-Catholic then and he's anti-Catholic now.

Peter Jennings had Hitchens on the air with him covering Mother Teresa's funeral and Hitchens was not only trashing her during her funeral Mass but was trashing her at the very moment of the consecration. I can never watch Peter Jennings without remembering that.

Name me another prominent person who has been defamed on live television during their funeral.

Name me another religion whose sacred ritual was interrupted on live television by such disrespectful talk.

I'll tell you something: George Bush* wants my vote, he wants all the Catholic votes he can get. Karl Rove has a whole campaign going on to win Catholic votes, which have traditionally belonged to the Democratic Party. I won't give him my vote but when my "fellow Dems" at DU can't seem to buy a clue about anti-Catholicism and how it makes Catholics feel, I do wonder why I bother to vote Democratic. If DU is any indication, the Democratic Party doesn't give a shit about its Catholic members.

[Dookus]

46. Dembones...

I repeat my earlier question:

Is it ALWAYS anti-Catholic bigotry to criticize a prominent Catholic? I understand that people feel offended when their deepest beliefs and heros are called into question, but does that mean it's all bigotry?

If all the accounts in this thread (and the other Hell's Angel thread) are true, is it really bigotry for us to discuss it?

Is it bigotry to assess the lives of Pius XII, Savonarola, Fr. Geoghan in negative ways? If so, your position is that ALL Catholics are immune from criticism, and I don't think that's healthy for Democrats OR Catholics.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. Dookus, this is a POLITICAL forum. There is no REASON to

discuss Mother Teresa here. I don't say she is immune from criticism but anyone who wants to believe Christopher Hitchens about her is ignoring the fact that he's lower than slime mold. And there is NO reason to discuss Mother Teresa in GD, which is specifically for POLITICAL discussions. She's not on any ballot and if people don't like the pope beatifying her, they can take it up with him, not grouse about it here.

I note that neither you nor REP made any mention of his disgraceful behavior during her funeral. Lower than slime mold, he is (with apologies to slime mold.)

[arcos]

65. Do you think all non-political topics should be off-limits? n/t

[scottxyz]

70. Do you think reports of torture and murder are non-political topics?

I don't understand why you think that reports of withholding healthcare and misappropriating funds - leading to the torture and murder of poor people in the name of Jesus - are "non-political".

I don't understand why you think that reports debunking a sacred cow are "non-political".

Is it simply because Mother Teresa may be sainted that you think nothing she did can be discussed in a political forum?

[Dookus]

69. Dem...

It was pointed out upthread that the treatment of the poor, sick and dying *IS* a hugely political topic.

I don't think you really object to MT being DISCUSSED. I think you object to her being CRITICIZED.

If a thread were started praising her canonization and everybody in that thread agreed with it, would you still be so adamant that she shouldn't be discussed?

And whatever you or I think about Hitchens, it's logically unsound to dismiss his arguments because of who he is. His arguments stand on their own. You can rebut them with better information, but one can't dismiss his claims simply because you don't like his positions on other topics.

[Tinoire]

90. That's bull Dookus - The hugely political topic is

That's bull crap Dookus - The hugely political topic is why that treatment of the poor, sick and dying is so bad! And I'll clue you in, it has nothing to do with a little old nun who gave up everything to help the poor and serve God by following the tenets of the New Testament - it has everything to do with richer nations like America destabilizing and plundering those third world countries.


THAT is the hugely political topic that so many here do not want to discuss and persist in denying so that they can continue supporting the status quo of concentrating the wealth. It's a way of rationalizing our unwillingness to examine ourselves and our country.

As a total aside but relevant to this thread, I find it touching that people who can rationalize, thus excuse, littering a country with depleted uranium and dropping bombs on human beings are so outraged that a few nuns have to dole out their supply of limited medications and so touched over relatively minor, in the grand scheme of things, human suffering.

[Dookus]

92. well....

I promise to give your assessment all the attention it deserves.

I'm not sure where we disagree. Are you saying the treatment of the poor, sick and dying is NOT a political topic? I think you know it *IS* political. I'm sorry if one of your oxes got gored, but the idea that it's beyond discussion is just plain fanatical.

What Mother Theresa has to do with depleted uranium is something you'll have to explain to me when I'm a lot less tired.

[Tinoire]

98. I am saying that it is not the important topic

not even AN important topic. The important topic is the political one, it's why the poor are that poor and their health-care so sub-standard, even in this country.

This is no more than fly-swatting while ignoring the kaka-laden elephant in the middle of the room.


When I fed the poor, they called me a Saint.
When I asked why the poor were hungry, they called me a Communist.

Archbishop Romero

Being outraged over suffering from a lack of aspirin while in other threads ignoring, rationalizing the suffering from the depleted uranium Clark dropped all over Yugoslavia or that the US dropped all over Iraq for years is a stunning mental feat. This thread is but another example of the differences between the Left and the Centrists on this board. I know 80% of the people in this thread- the line drawn here and in a few other threads this week is amazing.

The fundamental differences are too great.

[scottxyz]

127. It's not about "lack of aspirin" - it's about using dirty needles in Haiti

Look at this heart-wrenching statement from Susan Shields:

Some years after I became a Catholic, I joined Mother Teresa's congregation, the Missionaries of Charity. I was one of her sisters for nine and a half years, living in the Bronx, Rome, and San Franciso, until I became disillusioned and left in May 1989. As I reentered the world, I slowly began to unravel the tangle of lies in which I had lived. I wondered how I could have believed them for so long.

. . .

Mother was very concerned that we preserve our spirit of poverty. Spending money would destroy that poverty. She seemed obsessed with using only the simplest of means for our work. Was this in the best interests of the people we were trying to help, or were we in fact using them as a tool to advance our own "sanctity?" In Haiti, to keep the spirit of poverty, the sisters reused needles until they became blunt. Seeing the pain caused by the blunt needles, some of the volunteers offered to procure more needles, but the sisters refused.

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/shields.htm

= = =

Also, note that when her OWN health was at stake, Mother Teresa had no qualms about using some of her tens of millions of dollars to get the best Western healthcare money could buy:

Bear in mind that MotherTeresa's global income is more than enough to outfit several first-class clinics in Bengal. The decision not to do so, and indeed to run instead a haphazard and cranky institution... is a deliberate one. The point is not the honest relief of suffering but the promulgation of a cult based on death and suffering and subjection.

Mother Teresa (who herself, it should be noted, has checked into some of the finest and costliest clinics and hospitals in the West during her bouts with heart trouble and old age) once gave this game away in a filmed interview. She described a person who was in the last agonies of cancer and suffering unbearable pain. With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told this terminal patient: 'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you." (Hitchens, p 41)

http://www.a-voice.org/discern/teresa.htm

= = =

I realize these are shocking allegations, and I realize many people (including myself) don't like Hitchens since he supported the war in Iraq.

But the "cult" of Mother Teresa could be a media fabrication - if we believe people like Susan Shields, who gave nearly a decade of her life as a Catholic volunteer devoted to helping sick people in need, and who says she was appalled at the way Mother Teresa deliberately, needlessly made poor people suffer out of a misguided overzealousness.

[WoodrowFan]

113. Don't forget

that to some DU posters EVERYTHING wrong in the world is the fault of the US MIC. No-one else in the world is ever responsible for anything, ever.

[scottxyz]

123. Tinoire, I agree the US is mainly to blame for destroying Haiti

I don't know all the details because I've never been there as you have (I've wanted to go - and I studied a bit of kreyol once).

I was just shocked to read (from the Pope's biographer) that Mother Teresa said so many things in praise of the Duvaliers, and to read elsewhere (from the Chatterjee book) that Mother Teresa didn't evidently believe in using the ample donations she recieved for the simple purpose of providing medications for indigent sick people so they might have a chance to get well.

Mother Teresa now sounds to me like a fatalist - because these nuns and priests who knew her have claimed that she said thinks like "It's in the Lord's hands" while refusing to give people life-saving medicines. If these reports are true, maybe she was deluded or over-zealous and thought that it was ok to let people die because, after all, they'd be going to Heaven and they'd be happy there.

This may be her belief, but I don't think she has the right to impose it on poor people who would rather take medicines and survive.

[scottxyz]

126. DemBones, deliberately withholding medicines from poor people IS political

It doesn't really matter who does it - Mother Teresa or a right-wing Republican.

If the money was available, and the drugs were available, and the patients wanted them, then I say the patients should have gotten them.

If - as these nuns and priests are claiming - if Mother Teresa deliberately withheld available medicines from poor sick people then that is a BIG political issue.

She may have done it for "religious" reasons - like some religions (I think it might be the Seventh-Day Adventists?) who don't allow blood transfusions or organ transplants. In that case, there have also been political discussions about whether parents has the right to deprive their children of life-saving medical procedures on religious grounds. (This is complex issue because it involves the rights of the parents versus the rights of children and/or the community.)

In this case, it wasn't parents depriving their children of modern medicine. The people who allegedly suffered and died needlessly at Mother Teresa's hands weren't her CHILDREN - they were simply people who were poor and had nowhere else to go.

Maybe if they had been rich they could have gone somewhere else and they might have been cured or survived longer. Unfortunately for them, they were steered into the loving arms of a deluded nun who apparently was happy to let them suffer and die because of her own religious views.

Who knows if these people were even Catholic? If this was happening in India and Haiti, then this becomes another "colonial" issue - the Catholic Church getting millions of dollars in donations and going into some Third World country and setting up "hospices" run by Mother Teresa - who then proceeds to turn around and give people the wrong medicine or no medicine because because she wants to impose HER religions beliefs on these people.

If these people came from a Voodoo or Hinduist spiritual tradition, and if they would have been happy to take the meds that other organizations around the world were blindly donating to Mother Teresa, what on earth gives her the right to DENY these people life-saving medicines solely because of HER religious beliefs?

Just because you may be a Catholic and you might support her doing this because they'll he happier in heaven doesn't give you the right to make up these people minds for them and send them to an early death.

That's why this IS very much a political, really a COLONIAL issue.

[REP]

47. Once Again: Disagreeing with *A* Catholic Isn't Anti-Catholic

I'm sorry if not agreeing that one particular Catholic - or the decisions made by the RCC - make you feel bad, but not everyone feels the way you do. Not everyone is Catholic, or thinks that the RCC merits respect. I don't see anyone being bashed for their choice of faith, though, and it's a little disingenuous for you to claim that.

If you cannot bear it when someone disagrees with the RCC or a particular Catholic, you might want to skip those threads.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. That's easy for someone whose faith is not bashed here to say. n/t

[JasonBerry]

48. About Christopher Hitchens

I can't imagine bashing Mother Teresa and I'm disappointed to hear Hitchens couldn't have found a better "target" than her to write about. Hitchens used to be one of my favorite writers. He's still consistently progressive (still calls himself a socialist) but I was extremely disappointed with his stance on Iraq. Still one of the best there is on other issues and I so hate to hear he has chosen to write negatively about Mother Teresa.

[REP]

49. "The Missionary Position" Came Out in 1994!

He was probably one of your favorite authors when he wrote it.

[JasonBerry]

52. You're right

I didn't realize until reading further into the thread that this is old news. I never read it, I remember now the controversy and remember thinking at the time much as I do now. A lot has happened for me since 1994. I still think Hitchens has been extremely good on almost all the issues except Iraq. I know there are a couple of other issues that troubled The Nation enough to bid him goodbye, but he still writes for other left publications. All in all, I have to agree with Sgr, John and others that the post was completely unnecessary at this time. I am not a Catholic, but I respect many of the social policies of the Church. My caveat being the handling of sexual abuse which is an issue near and dear to me. Bottom line: The thread was an attack that was totally unnecessary.

[Dookus]

50. Hitchens' book on Mother Teresa

was published 6 years ago - it's not new.

And I'm puzzled why you can't imagine criticizing Mother Teresa, nor why you would consider valid criticism to be "bashing".

We've been given nothing but a hagiography of MT's life. What's wrong with actually examining it and pointing out the flaws?

For the record, I will stipulate that I believe MT acted fully in accordance with her deeply-held beliefs, and that she believed she was doing Christ's work. That being said, I disagree with her beliefs, and if the allegations Hitchens presents are true, she did, in fact, contribute to the suffering of thousands, rather than alleviate it.

[JasonBerry]

54. But why the thread?

I don't get that part. And as for your blanket statements that MT pained more people than she helped.....until I read the book....I will have to assume your signature cartoon is right (on this issue). With that said, I usually agree with you. I still must ask though --- why the thread?

[Dookus]

56. *shrug*

I dunno. Ask the person who started the thread.

But I don't think it's unreasonable for me to voice an opinion in a thread somebody else has started.

Look, here's my take: Fran Lebowitz wrote one of my favorite quotes - "Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving ones home." That can be expanded to "Being offended is the natural consequence of having a modem."

I don't believe topics that offend people should never be discussed. If that were true, DU wouldn't exist, because EVERYTHING we discuss here is offensive to SOMEBODY, usually Republicans.

What's the harm in discussing the allegations against MT? I've already stipulated that I believe she acted in good faith, but I believe that faith was misplaced.

I have heros. If you attack them, I'll either defend them against unfair attacks, or accept the valid criticism and explain why they're still my heros. If MT is your hero, there's nothing wrong with that - you could do a helluva lot worse.

I don't believe in Saints. Nobody is perfect, no matter how good their intentions. Gandhi is one of my heros, and there's a lot about him that's valid criticism. I don't object if somebody raises those issues. Same as MLK. If you believe Mother Teresa's good outweighs her bad, that's great, but enforcing a no-fly zone over her halo isn't the right approach. Evaluate her WHOLE life and works and draw your conclusion. It's not off-limits to criticize ANY human.

[Wonk]

57. Check your inbox. nt

[JasonBerry]

59. I Was Wrong

To clear one thing up.....

I was wrong about Hitchens still claiming to be a socialist. He apparently renounced socialism in 2000 and has become somewhat of a libertarian. I see he is now a REASON favorite. Interesting. I honestly have been busy on a lot of projects and let the metamorphosis of Hitchens pass me by. Sorry for the misinformation in my post above.

[Dookus]

64. heheh...

no problem, jason.

It's hard to keep up with the pundits.

[tkmorris]

68. Bingo!

Someone "gets" it. Dookus goes on the "good" list. Sgr would go on the bad but he (she?) is already there. If Mother Theresa is so great defending her should be easy yes? So do so. Don't simply proclaim any criticism to be out of bounds. If she's the heroine she's made out to be......PROVE IT. Or shut up. Your call.

[Dookus]

74. c'mon tk...

it's not about "good" or "bad". We're all discussing a topic, and we have strong, conflicting feelings about it.

I think the problem is that a lot of people immediately believe "if it offends me, it's wrong." That's a normal response. It takes some effort to overcome that.

The biggest leaps I've made, intellectually, were caused by people offending me. I've come to welcome it.

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Why indeed? Behind all the rhetoric about Mother Teresa's

just-discovered-tonight "political importance" is another round of plain old Bash-a-Catholic, a game related to Whack-a-Mole and enjoyed by many in these parts.

DU disappoints me at times like these..

[Dookus]

63. DemBones...

this is the third time I've asked you:

Do you really believe that any criticism of a prominent Catholic is necessarily bigoted "Catholic-bashing"?

I haven't seen ANYBODY in this thread bash catholics. I've seen arguments made that Mother Teresa was not perfect, and in fact, may have been blinded by her religious fervor to the point where she caused additional suffering to those in her care.

Do you really think ALL Catholics should be immune to criticism?

[cap]

73. I think people could tolerate criticism more if...

some of the good works of the church were extolled. If we had more balance in the discussion, I think it would be tolerated a lot better. How about a discussion on Katherine Drexel who did a lot of social work at the turn of the century in Louisiana among Afro-Americans. She set up a number of schools and universities there. A very early advocate for racial equality. Or a discussion on Dorothy Day, the Catholic Worker. Never met a war she liked.

As for Mother Theresa, the jury is out. That's why sainthood takes so long.

[scottxyz]

77. So by your logic, we can't criticize pedophile priests or criminal cops

...because MOST priests aren't pedophiles and MOST cops aren't criminals.

Look at this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=530339#530533

It was a Catholic priest who used the word "torture" to describe what Mother Teresa caused to be done to patients who had nowhere else to go.

It was a Catholic nun who used the word "murder" to describe what Mother Teresa caused to be done to poor patients who had nowhere else to go.

Do you really think these serious allegations by credible sources should go unmentioned just because most Catholics are good people? I appreciate that you have named some wonderful Catholics who have done some very good things. Does that mean we must close our ears to other Catholics who have accused Mother Teresa of torture and murder?

[Tinoire]

93. Good- then I assume we'll have your support for the

Sharon is a "^%$*" threads and we all know what he is but we can't say that of a man who is ready to blow up the entire world.

Yet poor Mother Teresa and her vials of aspirin- we can drag her through the hog mud.

DU is disgusting me these days. And the absolute pity is the exodus of great old time DU posters as this board becomes a sounding place for rationalization of everything we used to hold as anathema.

This is my second or third post to you directly, not because I mean to single you out, but because your comments are the most meriting a response.

[Dookus]

94. honestly.....

I see no difference of any real substance on these boards since I first came here over two years ago.

It's gotten a little more vulgar, a little more contentious, but only in degree, not kind.

Perhaps it's your fanaticism that's making you feel so apart from the mainstream of DU.

[Tinoire]

104. No it's taken a definite turn to the right lately

and this has been noted by almost all of the old-time DUers. I have an in-box full of messages about it and there have been several threads "When did DU take a right turn" and all of a sudden we went from having a 'few' who approved of certain right-wing positions and people to a slew of them. Ask yourself where and why people like Mo'Paul left in disgust. They made it pretty clear when they left and there are old-timers leaving everyday.

You don't see it because you weren't here as long I guess but you ask the old time DUers and I'd say over 80% of them would support that statement.

It is interesting to note the difference in post counts of the people on both sides of this thread. Not uncommon of a observation.

[Forkboy]

109. While I wont argue the fact that DU has turned right

the poster you're supporting has been one of the ones I find to be leading the charge.This is the person who wanted to form a secret group to police DU,hardly a leftist idea.

[scottxyz]

129. Since when is quoting nuns and priests who cried "murder" right-wing?

I realize it is extremely difficult for you, Tinoire, to believe that Mother Teresa could have done these things.

So you are saying she didn't do them - despite all the accusations (from members of the Catholic Church who worked with her) saying that she did.

But if she DID do them, then wouldn't exposing this be a "liberal" obligation?

It all sounds pretty believable to me. It could have happened this way: she MEANT to do good - but she went so far overboard in her pious beliefs about poverty that even with the millions of dollars in donations in her bank accounts she honestly believed it was better to let people die rather than actually spending the money to help people live.

She is quoted MANY times as saying "When you are in pain, that means Jesus is kissing you."

I don't think it's "right-wing" at all to expose this kind of murderous madness. (And remember it was a Catholic priest in Calcutta who used the word "murder" to describe what Mother Teresa was doing.)

Exposing a crazy murderer isn't right-wing. I'm sorry if the murderer exposed is someone you have looked up to for so long, and I realize you may never be able to even come close to accepting the possibility that Mother Teresa did such crazy things. Maybe this cognitive rupture you are experiencing right now is similar to what Fox viewers feel when people tell them outrageous "lies" like "Bush let it happen on purpose."

[jsw_81]

72. Catholics

Your church spent centuries burning, torturing, killing, and imprisoning people simply because they dared to speak out against one doctrine or another (Bruno and Galileo are examples), but it's considered rude or "bigoted" for someone to point out that one of your sacred cows was less than perfect?

[scottxyz]

76. A Catholic priest and nun accusing Mother Teresa of torture and murder

So DemBones, it does not seem fair for you to say that this is Catholic-bashing, when the people who made these allegations were Catholics themselves.

Read post 66 below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=530339#530533

There is a quote from a Catholic priest who accused Mother Teresa of TORTURE. There is a quote from a Catholic nun who accused Mother Teresa of MURDER. There is a quote from Tad Szulc, the Pope's hagiographer, accusing Mother Teresa of collaborating with the brutal Duvalier regime of Haiti to commit TORTURE.

Would you say that that priest and that nun and the Pope's biographer were engaged in "plain old Bash-a-Catholic" - or were they trying to report horrifying crimes carried out by a delusional or overzealous member of their Church?

[scottxyz]

66. Why? To expose reports Mother Teresa helped torture and murder poor people

That seemed very newsworthy. The reports are from years ago, so the thread was posted in General Discussion, not Late Breaking News - much like threads claiming the family of George W Bush (another hero to many people) had ties with the Nazis.

That's why I started this thread. A Catholic nun accused Mother Teresa of murder, and a Catholic priest accused Mother Teresa of torture. (See the quotes in bold italic below.)

The writer Tad Szulc, hagiographer of the Pope, accused Mother Teresa of collaborating with the brutal Duvalier régime of Haiti. (See the quote in bold italic below.)

That's why I started the thread. Believe me, I was shocked too. But I felt this was a highly newsworthy issue both from a political, humanitarian and media standpoint.

By the way, the ORIGINAL thread is over at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

The thread we're in now was started by sgr2 to continue a "flame war", in violation of General Discussion Rule 5, and might get locked by the moderators.

http://www.meteorbooks.com/index.html
Mother Teresa The Final Verdict
By Aroup Chatterjee
Was Mother Teresa for real, or was she 20th Century's biggest fairy tale?
Prepare to be disillusioned...

Some excerpts:

{The Australian Catholic nurse and Teresa acolyte} Tracey Leonard writes: "I have seen them give the steroid Prednisolone instead of paracetamol, because both start with the letter 'p'. Whenever I yell at them and accuse them of murdering the patients they simply smile and tell me that it is all in God's hands." {emphasis added}

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap7.html

= = =

The biography of Dr Jack Preger (OBE), the Catholic who heads the charity Calcutta Rescue, and who had worked with Mother Teresa before he went on his own, is scathing about Mother's needle-sharing policy:

"Yet if it is medication that they {Nirmal Hriday residents} want, their request is less likely to be favourably received. An inspection of the rules and aims of the order confirms that medical attention to the poor is low on the agenda. The priority is quite clear: the worship of Christ and the propagation of the faith... Certainly no painkillers are administered to patients; belief remains firmly vested in the intervention of the Almighty. And there are examples of medical malpractice at Kalighat that would horrify western observers. For example, needles for injections are simply rinsed in cold water after use and simple passed from one patient to the next. And patients with TB are not isolated, despite the highly contagious nature of the disease." {emphasis added}

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap7.html

= = =

One Kalighat priest, Debi Charan Haldar, who lived and worked close to the home, did go on record and gave this interview to a local magazine: "But many Sisters belonging to the Missionaries of Charity are very harsh towards the patients at Nirmal Hriday. Almost every night we hear heartrending cries from these old patients. I suspect the Sisters indulge in physical torture. Mother Teresa rarely visits Nirmal Hriday these days. And when she does, the Sisters ensure that Nirmal Hriday looks spick and span. I fear that after Mother Teresa's death, the Missionaries of Charity might fall apart. I do not think that the patients are converted to Christianity... I have two complaints against the organisation - a) the patients deserve better treatment by Mother Teresa and co., and, b) by admitting healthy people looking for a few days' of free meals, they are encouraging scrounging and laziness.


http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap7.html

= = =

Vatican's support of Haiti's military (and fascist Catholic) dictatorships was equally bizarre, and here too Mother Teresa vociferously echoed the Vatican line. When Haiti's military overthrew the democratically elected (socialist Catholic) priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991, the Vatican was the only state to formally recognise the junta. Even according to John Paul II's hagiographer Tad Szulc:

"Strange as it may sound, there were no Vatican protests against massive human rights violations, including numerous killings, during the junta's rule, and not a single public word of support for Aristide's restoration to office. Subsequently, Aristide applied to the Holy See to allow him to leave priesthood altogether."

Mother Teresa of course, was an old friend of the Haiti militia. She and the notorious Duvalier family - who used to 'rule' with the help of their private army, the Tonton Macoutes - had tremendous mutual attraction. When she visited Haiti as the guest of the Duvaliers (to receive the Haitian Legion d'Honneur) she heaped paeans on Madame Duvalier who not only had milked millions off the state coffers, but was also an instrument of torture. Mother said to Michele Duvalier, 'Madame President, the country vibrates with your life work.' She also added that she had never seen 'the poor people so familiar with their head of state as they were with her. It was a beautiful lesson for me.'

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap10.html

[Dookus]

78. Scotty....

here's where we disagree.

I think the use of the terms "torture" and "murder" are purely inflammatory. Both of those words imply a certain intent that I believe is missing in the case of Mother Teresa.

Did she intend to hurt people? I don't believe she did. Did she intend to kill people? I don't believe she did.

I *DO* believe, however, that she was blinded by her religious feelings and that resulted in the increased suffering of many of her charges.

I understand her belief that suffering was christ-like and should be encouraged. I disagree with it vehemently. Many of those in her care died MUCH more horrible, painful deaths than Christ did.

She wasn't evil. She was misguided. True evil is very rare in this world, I believe. I think the reason so many are deeply offended by this topic is because they think we're attacking her motives, rather than her actions. I believe her motives were pure. I believe her motives were wrong, and hurt a lot of people.

[scottxyz]

80. Yes, but "torture" and "murder" weren't my words...

These were quotes from a Catholic priest and a Catholic nun who protested mightily against the inhumane practices they reported witnessing at Mother Teresa's facilities in Calcutta.

Check out post 66 in this thread, where these quotes were cited.

[Dookus]

81. I understand...

but I think the use of such terms will make people refuse to even consider the legitimate arguments to be made.

Nothing is black and white. MT was not pure evil, nor was she pure goodness. You and I both want people to reconsider the latter, but they won't if we use such terms in OUR arguments.

[WoodrowFan]

112. Respectifully Disagree

She wasn't evil. She was misguided. True evil is very rare in this world, I believe. I think the reason so many are deeply offended by this topic is because they think we're attacking her motives, rather than her actions. I believe her motives were pure. I believe her motives were wrong, and hurt a lot of people.

I'd say that is a pretty good definition of evil. To think that people suffering in that way is somehow good, and even worse, to act in such a way to cause such suffering in Christ's name is such a perversion of Christ's teaching that I can't think of another term to call it besides evil....

[JNelson6563]

82. congratulations

Looks like you have successfully perpetuated what you claim to disdain.

Oy!

Julie

[scottxyz]

83. sgr2 was responding to another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=529736

[JNelson6563]

91. yes, I know

and provided yet another opportunity for the same bad behavior. Would've been smarter to knock that one off front page. Now it lives on in this thread as well as on its own.

Strategy isn't everyone's strong point I see.

Julie

[Tinoire]

85. Sgr- You just shot WAY up on my list

I am really astounded at this and subsequent posts by you in this thread. You have just thought me a very humble lesson about pre-judging people. You have a great heart and great understanding and I am sorry I prejudged you so harshly- not that you don't have your obnoxious moments but they are, every single one of them forgiven for this thread. Not that it should mean a hoot to you, but you start with a clean slate in my book.

Thank you for redeeming a little faith for DU humanity. And I agree with you- this is NOT, no longer, the DU I knew and loved.

[Dookus]

87. a profanity-laden

series of posts demanding the shut-down of free discussion is something you admire? Sorry, Tinoire - I guess we'll never have that cup of coffee.

[Tinoire]

95. No Dookus- we will not. We are too fundamentally different to

really enjoy that cup of coffee.

But who's advocating the shut-down of free discussion? I welcome this opportunity that exposes people who can't understand why the world is pissed off at narrow-minded Americans. I also welcome yet another thread at DU that exposes the common mentality of a certain type of people of which there's been a recent influx.

This board didn't take a right turn all by itself. Post counts don't mean much under 3000 these days but people who showed up in the last few months are exposing themselves in threads like this and I like it!

I like seeing this. The sooner things come to light here, the better for DU and for the Democratic Party.

As far as I'm concerned- talk about it all and while we're at it, let's Drag Sharon up here where he rightfully belongs and not hidden away in some dungeon under special rules for kid-glove treatment. let's expose it all so we can get on to real Democratic business.

[scottxyz]

88. Tinoire - check out Mother Teresa's praise for Haitian dictator Duvalier

Check out the links between Mother Teresa and the brutal Duvalier regime of Haiti. (I seem to recall I heard someone talk kreyol to you once so I thought this might be of particular interest you. If I have confused you with someone else then please accept my apologies - but in any case you may find it shocking to see how Mother Teresa admired the Duvaliers.)

Vatican's support of Haiti's military (and fascist Catholic) dictatorships was equally bizarre, and here too Mother Teresa vociferously echoed the Vatican line. When Haiti's military overthrew the democratically elected (socialist Catholic) priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991, the Vatican was the only state to formally recognise the junta. Even according to John Paul II's hagiographer Tad Szulc:

"Strange as it may sound, there were no Vatican protests against massive human rights violations, including numerous killings, during the junta's rule, and not a single public word of support for Aristide's restoration to office. Subsequently, Aristide applied to the Holy See to allow him to leave priesthood altogether."

Mother Teresa of course, was an old friend of the Haiti militia. She and the notorious Duvalier family - who used to 'rule' with the help of their private army, the Tonton Macoutes - had tremendous mutual attraction. When she visited Haiti as the guest of the Duvaliers (to receive the Haitian Legion d'Honneur) she heaped paeans on Madame Duvalier who not only had milked millions off the state coffers, but was also an instrument of torture. Mother said to Michele Duvalier, 'Madame President, the country vibrates with your life work.' She also added that she had never seen 'the poor people so familiar with their head of state as they were with her. It was a beautiful lesson for me.' (emphasis added)

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap10.html

[Tinoire]

101. That's simply stunning

I met Mother Teresa when she stayed with the "Soeurs de Sainte Therese" in Port-au-Prince and lived that entire incident from the eyes of the Haitians. You are off your rocker if you believe that crap.

This is really too sad for words.

No sooner does the left get a hero for the poor than the right comes out to dicredit them.

And also about Aristide, the Vatican's beef with him was that he was a priest blending some voodoo into their rites and leading people astray religiously. This whole article is a right-wing smear against Catholicism but we're used to it- there's nothing new under the sun. Bring it on- it just gets us to heaven quicker ;)

[Cheswick2.0]

102. so who are you supporting in the Primaries?

you seem to have a very narrow aggenda here. What's that all about? What exactly is your religion?

[scottxyz]

128. In the primaries? Probably Dean. He SUPPORTS healthcare for poor people

Perhaps I do have a narrow agenda. I get upset when I hear priests and nuns accusing someone of torture and murder. No matter WHO that someone may be.

[CWebster]

106. I'd vote for Dorothy Day

or Archbishop Romero (http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html) or any of the practioners of liberation theology that this Opus Dei Pope scorns over Mother Teresa - a hack for the Pope with an ambition to be a Saint.

[Rowdyboy]

108. Higgins is a piece of excrement...

But if we can just use him to smear Catholacism...

[CWebster]

111. What the hell does Catholicism have to do with it.?

This is like you are either with us or against us. A good Catholic, a good Christian, a good human being is not measured by an often corrupt and reactionary hierarchy, just as a good Jew is not measured by their allegiance to the facist and brutal government of Sharon.

[Liberator_Rev]

130. Catholicism has EVERYTHING to do with it!

Mother Theresa is a poster girl for the Vatican's ultra-Conservative version of Catholicism and they now want to make her a model for all Catholics to follow. She raised millions of dollars by projecting an IMAGE of helping the poor, while actually spending pennies on the advertized beneficiaries.

When people and organizations have a record to be proud of, they WELCOME and VOLUNTEER PUBLIC ACCOUNTING of their income, expenses and services, just as Jesus recommended to his followers in Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid.15 No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
When they have reason to be ASHAMED of their record, they fight every effort to let their inner workings see the light of day. See why Catholics have every REASON to want to shoot out every spotlight of truth that they can at

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Catholic

"The TRUTH will set you FREE."

[CWebster]

134. right.

what has it got to do with Catholism?

[Loonman]

117. Hey, DU is a bastion of tolerance!

Yeah, right.

Another thread about how people can't handle a discussion about religion or a religious person in a civilized manner.

Tolerance, my ass.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

122. the author of that other thread seems to like darkness

i have only one other person on iggy...for the exact same reason....."catholic bashing" the last tolerated bigotry continues to be accepted here...i feel sorry for anyone here who happens to be an overwieght catholic...you are a legal target for bigots

[Forkboy]

125. everything is Catholic Bashing to some

try being sympathetic to Greens around here :)

[maha]

131. ??? People have bashed Mother Theresa for years.

I've even bashed her, but not since she died. Who's bashing her now?

[Wonk]

133. Link to that thread here. This thread broke GD rule #5 by being started.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=529736&mesg_id=529736

[IndianaGreen]

135. The issue is whether there has been fraud regarding an alleged miracle

The issue is whether there has been fraud regarding an alleged miracle credited to Mother Teresa, which has been challenged as a fraud by witnesses.

Fraud was also alleged in the process that culminated in the canonization of Opus Dei founder, Josemaría Escrivá.

The Vatican has never been above politics!

BTW, I don't need the Catholic Church to tell me that Mother Teresa was a saintly person. Her life's work speaks volumes about her righteousness. The issue here is one of fraud to mislead the faithful.

[ScreamingMeemie]

136. I am locking this thread.

Please do not start threads that continue a flamewar from another thread.

Thanks,
MrsGrumpy
DU Moderator