Another Big Lie from the Right?

[stanwyck]

I first heard this from Laura Ingram on Bill Maher's show a couple of weeks ago when Joe Conason was on. She equated the daily American deaths of soldiers with Allied Forces soldiers being killed -- daily -- in postwar Germany. I had never heard of Allied soliders being killed by snipers following the end of the war. Conason said it didn't happen. Then, yesterday, on CSPAN's Washington Journal, a caller repeated this same assertion, almost identical to Ingram's words. That the daily deaths were no different than what happened in Germany when Allied Forces occupied Berlin. Another Big Lie? Fact or Fiction? Or is this more "Rovian" spin like the cheerleading astroturf letters? I think this is more junk talk radio has put out there and now some of the sheep are bleating it into the atmosphere. Please debunk.

[tlcandie]

1. OCCUPIED Berlin .. nice choice of words there ....

:think:

[OldSoldier]

15. That's what it was

Between the end of World War II and Reunification, the Allied Powers in Berlin were legally the "Occupation Force."

The occupation was controlled by the Quadripartite Treaty, and all of the soldiers in the city limits of Berlin were considered to be allies. The four powers were the US, Great Britain, France and the Soviet Union. No German soldiers were allowed to be stationed anywhere within Berlin.

Each of the four powers were given a sector of Berlin. The French wanted the area closest to the Brandenburg Gate; there was a monument to the Germans winning a war against France in the 19th Century that the French would have given their eye teeth to demolish. The French were given a small piece in the north--far away from any monuments to German military superiority over France. The Soviet Sector later became known as East Berlin.

Then came the Soviets trying to run the other three powers off, and we made a new treaty between the US, Great Britain and France. We called that the Tripartite Agreement.

Now here's the neat part: The Lord Mayor* of Berlin was, according to all of the postwar treaties, a figurehead with no power. Berlin was officially governed by four generals--an American major general, a British major general, a French major general and a Soviet lieutenant general--who met at the Quadripartite Building once a month to discuss the situation in Berlin. In reality, the Quadripartite Commission handed effective power to the citizens of Berlin in the mid-sixties and the generals--the Soviet general stopped coming about the time the Berlin Wall went up, although a flagpole was maintained for a Soviet flag in case he decided to show up--met once a month to smoke cigars, drink brandy and dine on fine foods.

Even more fun: The soldiers who served in the Berlin Garrison, up until the day of reunification, are eligible to join the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Laura Ingraham's a pain in the ass, but Berlin was occupied for many years.

* The "mayor of Berlin" is really called the Lord Mayor. Berlin is so large it has several mayors, one for each district. Think of them as city councilmen. The "mayor" you hear about is the Lord Mayor.

[Cat Atomic]

2. America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1753/

The total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was ZERO.

Here's an article from Slate that counters the whole "postwar Germany" bullshit.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/#ContinueArticle

[dwckabal]

3. Good article on Slate

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/

excerpt:

Werwolf tales have been a favorite of schlock novels, but the reality bore no resemblance to Iraq today. As Antony Beevor observes in The Fall of Berlin 1945, the Nazis began creating Werwolf as a resistance organization in September 1944. "In theory, the training programmes covered sabotage using tins of Heinz oxtail soup packed with plastic explosive and detonated with captured British time pencils," Beevor writes. "...Werwolf recruits were taught to kill sentries with a slip-knotted garrotte about a metre long or a Walther pistol with silencer..."

In practice, Werwolf amounted to next to nothing. The mayor of Aachen was assassinated on March 25, 1945, on Himmler's orders. This was not a nice thing to do, but it happened before the May 7 Nazi surrender at Reims. It's hardly surprising that Berlin sought to undermine the American occupation before the war was over. And as the U.S. Army's official history, The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946, points out, the killing was "probably the Werwolf's most sensational achievement."

Indeed, the organization merits but two passing mentions in Occupation of Germany, which dwells far more on how docile the Germans were once the Americans rolled in—and fraternization between former enemies was a bigger problem for the military than confrontation. Although Gen. Eisenhower had been worrying about guerrilla warfare as early as August 1944, little materialized. There was no major campaign of sabotage. There was no destruction of water mains or energy plants worth noting. In fact, the far greater problem for the occupying forces was the misbehavior of desperate displaced persons, who accounted for much of the crime in the American zone.

The Army history records that while there were the occasional anti-occupation leaflets and graffiti, the GIs had reason to feel safe. When an officer in Hesse was asked to investigate rumors that troops were being attacked and castrated, he reported back that there had not been a single attack against an American soldier in four months of occupation. As the distinguished German historian Golo Mann summed it up in The History of Germany Since 1789, "The readiness to work with the victors, to carry out their orders, to accept their advice and their help was genuine; of the resistance which the Allies had expected in the way of 'werewolf' units and nocturnal guerrilla activities, there was no sign..."

[Mountainman]

4. I would like to be in on the right wing talking points faxes

It is obvious to me that there is a central source for the talking points the right puts out through the media.

I read a story that the misadministration is going to do a PR blitz to build up support for the war then for the next few weeks I here the same talking points on radio, TV and read them on the web. Every freeper repeats them over and over and calls C-span and any other talk show they can get on and repeats them there.

Can we get someone on the inside who can get these talking points straight from the regime itself?

The thing to do is have a site where the talking points are played along with the actual transcripts from the past that refutes them.

[LoneStarLiberal]

6. I'm With You

I know the talking points come out of their highly-integrated think tank network. Usually a particular think tank will issue talking points on a particular issue instead of it being a collaborative effort.

We need a leaker in this process!

[sangh0]

12. Then become a GOP Team Leader

at http://www.gopteamleader.com/users/joinnow.asp

[RobertSeattle]

7. I agree

It's amazing when it seems like every right wing talk show host almost "in masse" starts talking about the same things from the same talking points script. Someone has to spill the beans on how these talking points are communicated!

[Cat Atomic]

11. I'm always hesitant to reference Bill O'Reilly, but he said

something about talking points that surprised me. It was one of those moments when his ego lodges his mouth open and something escapes unintentionally.

Anyway, he said that all the talkshow hosts and media types get a memo every morning from the RNC, which lists the talking points of the day. Of course, O'Reilly said, "I don't use 'em. They know better than to send me that stuff".

He then started back peddling, and gave his standard, "but the Democrats do it, too" line.

This was a week or two ago, I think. He was trying to make the point that he's more independant than all the other gas bags, because he doesn't just do what he's told. More of that 'you can trust me' garbage.

But I thought it was interesting that he'd basically just said that all these guys, Rush, Hannity, Coulter... the whole crew- get an official script from the RNC every morning.

[Aristus]

5. The Occupation Government in Germany after the war did have a

big problem with American-German relations: Fraternizing. The brass didn't want the GI's hooking up with German girls. But they did, by the thousands. That was the problem. Not a rash of deadly snipings at the occupiers. Lies, lies, lies. You'd think the reich-wingers would get tired of telling them and listening to them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

Same thing in Japan

not one American killed after the surrender, lots of Japanese women going with G.I.'s, whether for love or money.

One of my relatives (now deceased) was a military chaplain during the Occupation in Germany. According to him, stealing was a problem, because people were desperately hungry and camping out in the ruins of their homes, but the soldiers' lives were never in danger.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Dupe

n/t

[LoneStarLiberal]

8. No History But Lots of Shotgunning

They don't understand history but they do understand shotgunning. Shotgunning is a cross-examination debate tactic where you throw out a bunch of arguments at your opponent knowing good and well 3/4 of them are complete shit. But it forces your opponent to address all the arguments instead of making their point(s) and hopefully, just hopefully, he or she will let one of the 1/4 important ones slip through unaddressed. Then you pick up on this argument and run with it while ditching everything else.

They've been shotgunning baseless shit like this from the first time a soldier was killed after Captain Uh-muuur-ica's carrier grandstand.

Shotgunning is a very good sign that you've got under your opponent's skin and that they DON'T HAVE A GOOD RESPONSE to your plan and/or criticism.

[RichM]

9. In the waning days of WWII in Germany, Germans looked to the GI's as

"saviors," because they were so terrified of the Russians. People fled from the Eastern part of Germany HOPING to be captured by the Americans, because they rightly felt they'd be much better treated by the Americans.

Relations between inhabitants & the US occupiers were quite good. There were lots of romances, even though US authorities formally frowned on this.

[spanone]

10. If true it makes no difference. Death is Death.

[karlschneider]

13. If your bullshit detector has been calibrated recently, you can read

some of this, directly from the pachyderm's asshole:
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/GOPTopline/Oct03/topline100803.htm

[FDRrocks]

16. This is a RW Slant, Thom

Hartmann did a show on this, Condi and I believe it was Rumsfeld gave a speech at the VFW saying the samn damned thing. Except they don't see anything wrong with comparing thier little bullshit oil war with us deploying troops to obliterate a murderous nation that was knocking our allies for a loop.

They claimed the 'Werewolves' division of the SS were killing soldiers in postwar europe, Thom Hartmann just shot that all to shit, the 'Werewolves' were next to non existent when we kicked Germany out.

It's crap, shut up and tell the truth, Ingram.

edit: I don't even have a WW2 veteran in my family, and them making this comparison just FUCKING SICKENS ME.

edit: Try this: Google Search: 'Post war casualties', Iraq

Now this: Google Search: 'Post war casualties', "World War 2"

[stanwyck]

17. Thanks. Many excellent points here

from all of you. I've read your links. We need to keep fighting against the deluge of misinformation. I called my father, who is a WWII veteran who helped liberate one of the camps in Germany. He was not part of the Allied occupation after the war. He said he had never heard of any of our forces being killed after the war ended. I've forwarded your links to my email list. Thanks again.